Bharat Rakshak

Some of the areas that Pakistan has given out to the Chinese to mine and 'build tunnels'
From North-South and West-East:
1. Yasin: This is the valley adjoining the yasin river. In the area that the Balwaristan liberation movement calls Gandai the chinese have conducted '4000' explosions, including one that damaged a glacier. The locals then rushed up the mountains and threw the chinese out. The Pakistan army had to come in and they arrested 22 people and tortured them. There is an area called Sandhi identified by google earth. GE images are not updated.
2. Chopooran: In the northernmost areas of Balistan. Chinese mining activity.
3. Gojal: Close to the Hunza landslide area. Chinese mining activity.
Google earth can identify mining activity and one compound in the Aliyatabad area that seems to hold long trailers and possibly mining trucks. This compound is enclosed by a wall and is away from the rest of the town.
4. Hopar valley: Next to the glacier. Two tunnels visible on google earth, with roadwork and pipelines visible. Pictures posted earlier.
5. Shimshal: This is the western most area identified so far, and adjoins the Shaksgam valley. Some 1200 sq Km of area has been virtually ceded to china to mine. The shaksgam valley is about 2500 sq Km of territory that the Pakistanis ceded to the Chinese in violation of UN resolution on J&K state. The shaksgam valley lies north of Siachen Glacier.
6. The chinese are also possibly going to repair the Karakoram highway, and possibly add a railway line at a future date.
7. Road building activity recently has occured in the Deosai plains area and the area around Chilas. Some tunnels have also been initiated during Musharraf's era.
8. The Bhasha dam is also probably being built by the chinese, because there is NO way that Pakistan has near such ability to built such a major hydro-electric project.
9. The chinese are also building the Neelum Jhelum project around the Muzaffarabad area as mentioned earlier. (See Indus waters treaty thread for google earth pics)

OK - found what I was looking for - unequivocal evidence of deforestation with active logging. This one just upstream of Muzaffarabad.

No Chinese troops present in PoK: Pakistan



Meaning chinese soldiers double up as workers in repairing the KKH. Large number of troops/workers present.
But whether gifted to panda or not time will tell.

It is not a case of "time will tell". India has to simply claim, that Pakistan's transfer of whole of Gilgit-Baltistan over to China has already taken place, so LoC (the part between Northern Areas and Indian-controlled J&K) is not valid anymore.

Pakistan has rescinded its claims over the area, so it can be taken over by India, especially as India is the legal, the de-jure sovereign over the region. It is up to India when to make any move.

Yes, India can lay claim and say that it belongs to us.
1) Pakistan will not admit that it has ceded those areas. If it does it deflates the kashmiris support both sides.
The paki public will be inflamed. It will be suicidal to grant it to panda.(at least overtly) which I doubt it has done.
2) If china takes control and if it is proved, India will likely declare Tibet disputed and certainly activate moves accordingly.
lot of noises will be created short of military intervention.
3) Uncle is sure to make more noises. It will create a ripple effect in ASEAN countries where china has borders.

despite all these events and India watches quietly there will be jihadi attacks on panda definitely however sparse the population and geography factors.
JMTs

On the other hand clear evidence of PRC troops will show that TSP has conceded it cannot retain POK in which case what are the dumb sh*t terrorists and chatterati in Cashmere and in DC respectively, fighting for?

^^^^
there will be pure unadulterated fun for dumb sh*t terrorists elsewhere

I have opened a new thread to collect news and discussions on Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK). This includes Northern Areas/Balwaristan and Chinese Occupied Kashmir (COK). We have threads on other areas of TSP but not on this topic. The idea is to collect all news and discussions pertinent to POK.

Thanks, ramana

I thought that only 'Azad Kashmir' with capital Muzaffarabad and Bradford are Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. Everything else is China Occupied Kashmir - Hunza, Gilgit, Baltistan is all occupied by China.

I have a question(s) for the forum members.

In light of PLA presence in PoK, what are our options? Even if there was concrete evidence PLA soldiers in PoK (photos, satellite imagery etc), what are our options realistically? We can't even secure and properly integrate the valley into the union despite the numerous opportunities that have presented itself. Won't this issue hamper our efforts to bring PoK back into the fold?

Could it be that the recent intifada type unrest in the valley is connected to this somehow? Sort of a way to distract our attention and turn it inwards?

TIA

Can we call it Ghulam Kashmir

Actually if it was not part of Jammu & Kashmir, and legally a part of India, I would not even call it Kashmir but rather 'Chhotta Pakjab'! The Mirpuris are hardly Kashmiris!

Dont be stuck on details or technicalities. What matters is its Indian land s occupied by two foreign powers.

The mantra for disputed territories is "use it or lose it". Time is the greatest enermy for India. The longer an area remains under occupation, the less chance of you getting it back. When all the road signs are English/Chinese, when all the value producing assets are Chinese owned, the area will be lost to you. The sad truth is I just don't see how India could get PoK back in the short to medium term. I think what would happen is the current boundaries will eventually became permanent.

You mean the Chinese Mantra? I hope they are making good use of the Gobi desert. Use it or lose it no? Is there any dispute about that?

You look at a satellite photo of the world at night and you find China brightly lit up in the east where the population resides. And the population resides there because it is livable. So as far as China is concerned "disputed territories" are disputed by a grabbing China that has more desert that its people can live on. The parts of PoK that the Chinese have got are a little better than the Gobi desert, but parts that Pakistanis felt they could not defend - the whore gifts her client with part of herself. The real trick is to get Chinese into PoK valleys and towns and rewrite history.

Or cut the KKH and the Xinjiang-Tibet railroad (i.e., watch as the Paki terrorists sabotage these, I mean, of course)

A good rebellion in Balwaristan is what is needed.

All this CCP thugs in POK/NA news may all be just rumors to keep India from using the 100 yr flood in Pak as an opportunistic event to maneuver itself into the Balwaristan area. Maybe, we should really call the bluff from both Pak and PRC this time.

Maybe I am wrong - but the sense I am getting is that there is a widespread acknowledgement on the part of India that families and bonds have been broken by the LoC which can be mended. Let me call this call this the "aim" in Kashmir, but subject to the following condition:

There is a gradual imposition of the hard fact on all parties concerned that
1) Kashmir will remain part of India
2) Violence will not change anything on the ground other than making it more difficult for Kashmiris
3) Peace, development and democracy have definite positive benefits in a manner that is becoming clearly visible on either side of the LoC

All three points above have negative consequences for Pakistan (and its separatists) who have a one point agenda of creating violent disorder.

There was a cartoon posted elsewhere about the Taliban/Al Qaeda telling the US "You have the weapons, we have the time". Too many people on this forum who spout the Indic word loosely ignore the fact that time extending beyond human lifetimes is a perfectly valid tactic provided the aims are kept in mind across lifetimes. India has the time and words like "use or lose it" make good poetry for people who cannot see what is being used and how.

The first step is to quell violence. Events in many places show that quelling violence often takes 20 to 30 years (maybe more) as "young revolutionaries" who become great and violent leaders gradually fail to achieve their goals via violence over a lifetime and are either eventually killed or figure out that the people among whom they created violence are tired of it. Nation states on the other hand can rotate troops who are young and fresh for long periods of time without tiring.

After quelling violence the next step is to offer peace, democracy (which is a form of self), education and development.

Reunification with people across the border is a definite aim. It is complicated by the existence of Pakistan and Pakisan' sponsorship of violence and by Islamic extremists who are introducing global jihad in the area. But India's aim are aided by India's long term stamina in Kashmir and the fact that J&K is in far better shape than PoK politically and economically. India is also aided by Pakistan's failures and it may be Pakistan's failures that are driving a desperate effort by the Pakjabi establishment to say "OK if we can't hold PoK we will give it to China and no let India in" The whole tells the client just before being raped (for free) "Please take me, I am yours".

I believe that Pakis letting the Chinese into PoK can be utilised positively by India in the long term. "Kashmiriyat" and the whole Kashmir question is a social issue. It is the social cleft - of separated families and a cleaved land that needs to be addressed. India has addressed the India side by article 370. Pakistan has tried and failed militarily, but has suppressed any possibility of any PoK resident piping up and saying that things may be better across the border in India, which they are. Pakistan has done this using the China method of suppression, occupation and killing when needed and they have also introduced foreign jihadis in the area who have been killed by the hundred in India. Chinese troops in this area are sure to alienate the population and make the calls for some kind of PoK link with India stronger. The Paki whore may let a Chinese hand inside her blouse - but China is not going to get its hand in India's blouse. For a change India may be able to sponsor a resistance movement in PoK or otherwise utilize the presence of aliens in PoK to strengthen the PoK-Indian J&K peoples bond.

It is difficult to say how this can pan out - but "making that border irrelevant" for Kashmiris and keeping it relevant for the Pakjabi whore and her Chinese client would be one step forward. After all India is interested in people and thee family bonds across the LoC and will do all it can to unite the Kashmiri people under the aegis of freedom and democratic self rule, protected from foreign occupation and violent forces by an Indian umbrella.

Deforestation in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir
Click on image

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Nice pics.

Hi everyone,
The purpose of starting this thread to serve as a repository for all news and discussion on Pakistan Occpied Kashmir (POK) - the part of the state of Jammu and Kashmir that is in illegal occupation by Pakistan.
This area includes some 5800 Sq Km area of Raksam and the Shaksgam valley that Pakistan illegally ceded to China in 1963. This area is also known as the Trans-Karakoram Tract.

Pakistan arbitraliy divides this area into:
1. Northern Areas (Historically known as Balwaristan): Comprising the distircts of Gilgit and Balistan. Gilgit is the capital of this area.
2. "Azad" Kashmir ("Free" Kashmir): the remaining part including 10 districts divided in three divisions with Muzzafrabad as its capital.
In contrast to the colorful naming of the region by pakistan as being "Free", in the last 63 years of its creation, Pakistan has not held even one election in these areas.

With regards to the districts of Gilgit and Balistan, there is a secessionist movement in the area under the name of the "Balwaristan National Front" which seeks independence for that area from Pakistan.
In August 2009 (29 August 2009), Pakistani cabinet (Note: Not the Parliament) passed the "Gilgit-Baltistan Empowerment and Self-Governance Order 2009" which was then signed by President Zardari to allegedly give the area a legislative assembly and make it a state of Pakistan. A few weeks later, in September 2009, Pakistan awarded several contracts to China to relating to infrastructure and mining projects in this area.

Over the last few years, there have been reports of tunneling work being done by chinese engineers in parts of the region. India is reported to be keenly watching these developments.

Recently this area was in the news because of reports of the presence of some 7000-11,000 Chinese soldiers in this area, presumably to protect the various mining projects that china is undertaking, and which are causing conflict with the local population. But the influx of such a large body of soldiers is being viewed with suspicion, as in this article by Selig Harrison where he suspects that the Chinese intentions go beyond developing infrastructure and access to the gulf.
China's Discreet Hold on Pakistan's Northern Borderlands


I'll cross post some of my posts and I will request everyone to kindly post all relevent news and analysis here.

With that background, here is what was visible on Google Earth:
Pakistan's Chinese built tunnels exposed.
These are google earth images dated May 31 2010 of the Hopar glacier with the tunnels and roads under construction. One tunnel is seen complete with a road going into it.
As mentioned elsewhere by someone who has access to 'Cartosat 2B' imagery, the tunnels and the roads are bang on the edge of the Glacier, not a very brilliant idea, whoever planned this. If this is a military installation, any attack on the area will cause the glacier to become unstable, and the tunnels to collapse in the ensuing landslides. As it is the area's geology doesn't seem to be solid rock, but more like sandy and rocky in bits.

I can't see anything in sumayar valley itself. But in the Hopar valley next door I could see these two tunnels, whose pics I've posted above. The google earth imagery is not very high resolution, and it gets further distorted when google tries to blend the image with the cartographic 3D hills.

1. One can see a very long military convoy on one of the roads though.
2. It seems they use pressurized water to dig those tunnels or they've hit an undermountain water stream, because there seem to be pipes which are discharging lots of water in the Hopar valley/glacier area.
3. There are several landslides visible on the mountains in that area. Infact the Hunza river landslide is also in an adjacent valley. The mountains don't seem to be solid rock, but more like sand and rocks.
4. These images on google earth are dated May 31, 2010. So some change might have occured, but not much. I don't see 22 tunnels as claimed by zee news. Are there other areas where tunnels are located? Google does not have updated high res images of the whole area, very limited areas only.
5. There have been several news reports over the last atleast 2 years about the chinese building tunnels in POK and northern areas, including one which said that India was keeping a keen eye on them. India has also protested to the chinese about this about a year back and told them this is disputed territory per one report. Another place where the chinese are building tunnels are the Neelum-Jhelum tunnels for that project around Muzaffarabad. Pakistan couldn't build a tunnel for 40 years and the chinese have come in and are building that tunnel for them finally.
Here are some images:

Western Jammu actually since it is part of the Jammu province, and Hindu-Sikh inhabitants of the Mirpur-Muzaffrabad belt are living in Jammu as refugees, waiting for the day when they can recover their usurped lands.

From orbat.com on the tunnels:
It seems the chinese are mining there, for among other things Uranium.

Another important reference point:
Pakistan's Neelum - Jhelum Project.

The plan is to construct a dam at Nauseri on the Neelum / Kishenganga close to the LOC and build a 32.5 Km long tunnel, to divert the water to the Jhelum via a powerhouse that will produce 969 MW of electricity. In any case, India's Kishenganga tunnel is nearly ready. A chinese company was building the tunnel for the pakistani project recently. Pakistan has been showing Indian inspectors a rudimentary tunnel with no work going on since 1989. Now that India's project is nearly ready, pakistan has just woken up to reality. Because pakistan was showing India the rudimentary tunnel all these years, India delayed its project for 18 year.

To me it looks as if China is trying to divert Indus, away from its present course using tunnels and pipes. Looks like the Pakistani Army has sold China the rights to the water.

Somebody is trying very hard to bring about the desert to Pakistan.

Fantastic work, Gagan. You're a gifted person; thank you.

Gagan, the above is not the correct interpretation of IWT. But, we won't discuss that here. Suffice to say, that Pakistan has locus standi on linking the Kishenganga with their Nelum-Jhelum Project as far as 'first usage of water' is concerned. Those interested can follow this in the IWT thread.

TOI (31st August) Report on the issue:

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=13340

Excerpts:

Thanks, SSridhar-ji, I have edited that line out of the post.

Not sure what ground realities are or the intention of the NYTimes article, but I think it end up helping India, not necessarily the babus. It would not be an exaggeration to say that the people of India have conveniently forgotten about the POK. In last 50 years, very little has been achieved strategically or on military front to reclaim the lost territory and connect us with Afg.

The question is, are the yankees trying to help India? How in the world would this help? Well, we all know that the politicians will not do anything unless the house gets on fire. There you go. Tell Indic people that PRC has entered PoK and that will start the much needed the fire to get the issue back on radar. Why would yankees do such thing? If PRC is successful in doing what the article claims they are planning to do, it means one more territory in the hands of a country they, at least on paper, hate. TSP is in the most vulnerable state, TIME TO ACT NOW. NOW OR NEVER.

Having a token of 3000 PRC soldiers for road clearance is just an insurance for now from the TSP point of view. And PRC definitely sees this as an opportunity for later use for getting itself entrenched in Indo-Pak affairs at least in the J&K context.

US would not definitely want PRC to take too active a role within TSP. So there is some motivation for this leakage on their part too.

What is in it for us ? It can both be an excuse to start moving on the parliament resolution and thwart future plans that PRC has in POK and TSP. Even a full fledged Indian attack restricted to POK now, is not going to make Beijing retaliate. Too much to lose for them now to engage in that manner. And, if Uncle Sam is too busy withdrawing from any active role due to shrinking wallet, then it will look the other way and even perhaps encourage India.

With potential relaxation in export control laws in the pipeline, it would be a nice way to jump start the economy for uncle by supporting Indian endeavor in POK. Not a bad time at all if India is serious about actively working on the integration resolution. Waiting for things to fall into one's lap is not an option. There is risk but the rewards are immense.

This reminds me of the initial days of the Mil Scenarios thread where there was a story of Chinese military presence in Bangladesh.

While not exactly the same, there are definitely some shades of this visible here. China has moved in with its mining teams to suck dry the mineral wealth of POK-Balwaristan and has probably sent in its troops to protect its work force from the resistance of the local balwaristan populace. China is possibly fully engaged and will lose face if it is made to withdraw. It will bear even horrible punishment at the hands of the balwaristan people as long as things are not made too public.

JMT

So its a PRC version of "Avataar" the movie.

Ramanaji, a separate thread for POK was long overdue so please allow me to congratulate you for thinking of starting a separate thread for discussion on this matter in issue.

TonyMontana wrote:


And I think what would happen is, sooner or later, China would gets its ar** whopped and China would retreat back to the position of 1940s, with a result (i)Tibet would, once again, become an independent country and serve as a buffer between India and China and (ii) POK would definitely become a part of India.

There is no such thing as permanent borders. Not in this part of the world. These borders have changed as quickly as the waves of ocean.

All the areas of J&K, and PoK have changed owners many many times. There is no such thing as a permanent loss or permanent gain.

TonyMontana wrote:


Chinese aka Lawhoree logic? And the Chinese logic being 'grab another nation's territory and once grabbed, it no longer remains disputed but then becomes a part of china' ((i.e. what's ours is ours (Tibet, Aksai Chin etc.) but what's yours is always negotiable (Tawang))? Hmm....

Added ltr: Generally speaking, most are aware that certain trolls may attempt to derail this thread in order to divert the focus away from the main issue of this thread.