US and PRC relationship & India

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Manishw
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

TonyMontana wrote: "You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha..."
--Vizzini, The Princess Bride (1987)

Sorry, my bad. I thought everyone was familar with this meme. Must be living with the white man for too long. :D
Sorry Sir you seem to be of great intellectual mind.Cant debate further on this point.It is beyond my I.Q level.
Sanjay M wrote:
It's an absolute fantasy to think that Indian Army could take the fight into the Chinese heartland when that heartland is located on the eastern side of China's landmass. You're saying that Indian Army should be able to fight its way across Tibet and into Central China. We would be slaughtered long before we get there.


There are other way's to skin a cat.
TonyMontana wrote: This. As a serious answer to your question.

When you talk about a zero-sum game between China and India in ASIA, as in "cannot coexist". Indic domination is kinda implied, isn't it? But I digress, my opinion has always been Asia should be shared between India and China. (Only in terms of spheres of influence)
No, but there is a saying that only certain intelligent people(of the caliber of CPC brainwashed types) ignore history and that too at great 'peril'.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

Sanjay M wrote:
It's an absolute fantasy to think that Indian Army could take the fight into the Chinese heartland when that heartland is located on the eastern side of China's landmass.
India does not have to worry about this.
A very real future for China in 2020 is its old nightmare—a country divided among competing regional leaders, foreign powers taking advantage of the situation to create regions where they can define economic rules to their advantage, and a central government trying to hold it all together but failing. A second possibility is a neo- Maoist China, centralized at the cost of economic progress. As always, the least likely scenario is the continuation of the current situation indefinitely.

It all boils down to this: China does not represent a geopolitical fault line in the next twenty years. Its geography makes that unlikely under any circumstances, and China’s level of military development needs more than a decade to overcome this geographical limit. Internal stresses on the Chinese economy and society will give China far greater internal problems than it can reasonably handle, and therefore it will have little time for foreign policy adventures. To the extent that China will be involved with foreign powers, it will be defending itself against encroachment rather than projecting its own power.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by TonyMontana »

Manishw wrote: No, but there is a saying that only certain intelligent people(of the caliber of CPC brainwashed types) ignore history and that too at great 'peril'.
Manish,

We're getting OT here. So it's my last post on the matter. What I do say to you is this. I'm going to make it my mission to make you my friend on BRF. I wonder if this is possible. But I'm going to try anyway. :)
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

My last post too on this matter Tony you are already my friend, don't let differences of opinion cause any confusion. :)
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

Sanjay M wrote: It's an absolute fantasy to think that Indian Army could take the fight into the Chinese heartland when that heartland is located on the eastern side of China's landmass.
You're saying that Indian Army should be able to fight its way across Tibet and into Central China. We would be slaughtered long before we get there.
maybe, maybe not perhaps you are jumping the gun.I never said that this is the route that we must take.Though our air assets make take it as one of them.
I must say it requires a great amount of Fantasy on your part to use the word 'army' since I have not used it anywhere in my post.Well carry on with the C.T's sir.
Sanjay M wrote: The best we can do is mount a holding operation against China on our side of the Himalayas, assuming that our nukes can't deter them. We'd have to use the terrain in our favour - ie. bomb Chinese supply routes to the border, since the terrain on their side makes it difficult for them to get there. We, on the other hand, have a large population near our side of the border.
Then we must prepare further and find allies near the Chinese heartland.
Sanjay M wrote:I'm imagining that a sizeable section of the population of Uttar Pradesh would end up in refugee camps, if a border war were to spread.
Not talking about this scenario only but our whole nation will take a huge hit in one form or the other.

Perhap's Acharya Ji is pursuing another line of thinking.

Added Later: Xposted in the POK thread since it seems to be a wee bit OT here and the real aim was to find a link to Afghanistan thereby cutting Pakis and cheenis.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

Acharya wrote:


India does not have to worry about this.
A very real future for China in 2020 is its old nightmare—a country divided among competing regional leaders, foreign powers taking advantage of the situation to create regions where they can define economic rules to their advantage, and a central government trying to hold it all together but failing. A second possibility is a neo- Maoist China, centralized at the cost of economic progress. As always, the least likely scenario is the continuation of the current situation indefinitely.

It all boils down to this: China does not represent a geopolitical fault line in the next twenty years. Its geography makes that unlikely under any circumstances, and China’s level of military development needs more than a decade to overcome this geographical limit. Internal stresses on the Chinese economy and society will give China far greater internal problems than it can reasonably handle, and therefore it will have little time for foreign policy adventures. To the extent that China will be involved with foreign powers, it will be defending itself against encroachment rather than projecting its own power.
Acharya Ji does it make sense to keep on waiting for the enemy to make a mistake.Even if you find fault lines how will you exacerbate them and take advantage?
Even if the enemy collapses we should be prepared for any scenario don't you think? or is it something I am missing?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

Manishw wrote:

Acharya Ji does it make sense to keep on waiting for the enemy to make a mistake.Even if you find fault lines how will you exacerbate them and take advantage?
Even if the enemy collapses we should be prepared for any scenario don't you think? or is it something I am missing?
India can do border engagement. There is no need for deep thrust which is impractical.
Usually external thrust create internal mistakes
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

^ Even in that case someone might come and fill the vacuum, should not we be preparing to go on the offensive(somehow) and take advantage?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

Manishw wrote:^ Even in that case someone might come and fill the vacuum, should not we be preparing to go on the offensive(somehow) and take advantage?
That is taking advantage - Tibet
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

^ So if my understand correctly you expect collapse and our offensive to go to Tibet.Kindly correct if I am wrong and pray share any Ideas as to how we exacerbate the collapse.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

Read all the post I have posted. You see that China has a imbalance internally. You neeed to read the history and geo politics for China to understand. It is not collapse but becomes unstable entity which cannot be a threat.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

^ Thank's but read some. Only asking for Ideas as to how we might do our two bit's to help.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

Manishw wrote:^ Thank's but read some. Only asking for Ideas as to how we might do our two bit's to help.
Yo keep repeating the same question. Unless you have read deeply and understood these countries it becomes pointless to answer.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

Acharya wrote: Yo keep repeating the same question. Unless you have read deeply and understood these countries it becomes pointless to answer.
Please dont consider anybody with a less no. of post's to be Ignorant.That is Ignorance itself.What you say is incomplete.Only wanted to point that out but let's leave it at this.Thnx.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

Manishw wrote:
Please dont consider anybody with a less no. of post's to be Ignorant.That is Ignorance itself.What you say is incomplete.Only wanted to point that out but let's leave it at this.Thnx.
That is not what I pointed out - no of posts. My posts explains why China has internal problems. That should explain lot of things.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RajeshA »

Checkmating China: China's North East
ramana wrote:RajeshA, The idea is to do the same as PRC i.e. support those US allies who are against PRC. How does supporting NoKo work from this Point of View? It doesn't.
Having said that I support Korean re-unification as NoKo is one of the last holdouts of Asian Socialism. Supporting SoKo achieves the secondary objective of Korean Re-unification which has its own dynamics in the North East Asia.
ramana garu,

On further thinking and some research, my thinking on this has evolved a bit, though some sound strategy still eludes me. So some thoughts:

>> Have we given sufficient thought to how a united Korea would deal with China?

I am of the impression, that North Korea has multi-dimensional advantages for PRC.
  • It is a proxy to keep Japan and South Korea on the edge.
  • It helps boost China's own sense of importance in East Asia, through the six-party talks, etc.
  • It acts as a conduit for Chinese proliferation to other places - Pakistan, Myanmar, etc.
  • It makes China feel supported in the international arena, with chamchas around it giving vocal support - North Korea, Pakistan.
  • Most importantly, North Korea acts as a levy, a bulwark against China's unraveling.
Some background here.

Ethnic Koreans in China
Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok is the name for Koreans living in China. Their population is around 2 million with many more expatriates from North Korea and South Korea swelling the population to around 2.5 million.

Mostly the younger generation has been integrated into Chinese society. But Korean is still widely spoken in this group. Many of the Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok are Buddhists.

Between 2002 and 2006, China conducted the Northeast Project with the help of some 'traitorous' Koreans living in China. It is based on the principle of Zhonghua minzu. {Please use Google Chrome for Translations}, which tries to give all types of Chinese ethnic minorities a single identity.

Korea sees itself as the inheritor of Goguryeo, from which the name Korea originates. With the Northeast Project's efforts to lay claims on Goguryeo as a Chinese regional identity, there is some friction between the Chinese and the South Koreans.

Since a few years there has been an upsurge of anti-Korean sentiment amongst the Chinese. In fact the effort is to make this sentiment take hold among the Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok (ethnic Koreans in China). To some extent the South Koreans themselves are responsible. There are some There is some discrimination against Chaoxianzu in Korea. Of course there will be, people tend to be foolish. It is like Cowbelt Indians snigger about the Mongoloid features of people from North-East India. It so happened that these Chaoxianzu have been very active on the Internet and have let other Chaoxianzu back home in PRC know, that they are discriminated and they don't feel Korean, and that they are in fact Chinese.
Wikipedia wrote:Many Chinese Nationals of Korean descent, known as Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok or highly offensively called Ddong-Po(똥포, Brother of Excrements) {I think, this is propaganda}, also suffer from discrimination. While they believed that common heritage and language would make them fit into the society, they found that they would be looked down upon and mistreated compared to ethnic Koreans coming from wealthier countries. Many work in "3D" jobs, referring to dirty, difficult and dangerous work conditions. With the South Korean economy in recession, many Joseonjok were accused of stealing Korean jobs and were subsequently deported.
Huang Youfu {'traitor'}, an ethnic Korean professor at the Minzu University of China noted that articles written by joseonjok about the discrimination in South Korea was a major source of anti-South Korean sentiment in China amongst netizens.
I would say, this is a process actively encouraged by PRC. In fact, one would have to think, that PRC choose a few amongst the Chaoxianzu {Resident Non-Indian types} and send them as their soldiers to disfigure Korea's image amongst the Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok. It is interesting that it is not the Han Chinese that are being used in this anti-Korean campaign but the turncoat Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok.

There has been an upsurge in expressions of anti-Korean feelings amongst the Chinese. I think this is also stage-managed and very effective.

So there seems to be an active campaign in China to turn the Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok against Koreans.

NOTE for South Koreans: You need to mend fences with Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok. You could give all Joseonjok the right to have education in South Korea on a subsidized basis and then go back home to PRC.

North Korea
North Korea acts as chains around the feet of South Korea, in pretty much the same way Pakistan acts against India. In North Korea it is the dynastic autocratic Communism that is used to keep the two apart, and in Pakistan it is Pakistaniyat. Just like there are Mumbai 26/11s to thwart any rapprochement between Pakistan and India (I wouldn't wonder if there was not some Chinese complicity in this), there are North Korean torpedoes sinking South Korean ships for less Sunshine in South Korean policy. It seems to me, that Chinese play their games with several thick layers of plausible deniability.

Anyway as long as the two Koreas are wide apart, and not united, Korea will not be able to lay claims on Korean lands within PRC. It is as simple as that.

Now unlike a weak and sparsely populated Mongolia, which could enforce its claims on Inner Mongolia in PRC; or a fractured Turkic Central Asia, which cannot lay claims on East Turkestan; or a Tibetan people, who live like refugees in Exile, with only a sliver of Tibet in form of Tawang still free of Chinese control, which could not hope to get Tibet back; Korean areas in PRC could very well be claimed by a very developed Korea, and there could be a strong pull. That would start the unraveling of China.

One notices, that there is a tendency to overlook the forest for the trees. North Korea plays such good theater on the world stage, that one would overlook that it is a great smoke and mirrors game being played by the Chinese on the rest of the world.

So we have now a Chinese campaign which states that the best defense lies in offense, and it is based on at least four legs:
  1. Don't let North Korea collapse, and thwart unification with South Korea
  2. Increase the level of disenchantment between ethnic Koreans in China and their South Korean brothers.
  3. Increase South Korean investments in China to a level that even a united Korea, not to speak of South Korea, does not feel emboldened to rock the boat.
  4. Keep South Korea under the American umbrella, so that North Korea has an alibi for not pursuing unification. Another aspect of that is that with American nuclear umbrella, South Korea did not go nuclear even after North Korea conducted their nuclear tests. The American umbrella keeps South Korea weak and dependent.
With respect to China, India needs to develop a strategy which weakens it by thwarting its game plan. That means India should support that all outlying nationalities, that still retain their independent identity, like the Turks, the Mongols, the Tibetans, the Koreans should become stronger and prosperous. Furthermore the sinister propaganda games that China plays ought to come to a naught. The ethnicities imprisoned within China need to retain both their separate identity and the sentiment of unity with their compatriots across the borders. There must also be a steady stream of information from within PRC about mishandling of minorities, and about the courageous resistance of the minorities. For the ethnic minorities within PRC, one needs to find means and ways of supporting them.

As far as Korea is concerned, India should support Korean Unification. South Korea is doing all it can, just like India at the moment is doing with Pakistan, to decrease the tensions between the two countries. However North Korea is a very tough nut to crack. India can use the instances of interdiction of the North Korean vessels sailing in the Indian Ocean to start a dialog with the North Koreans. Furthermore we can also start a dialog with North Koreans on the issue of their exporting missile technology to Pakistanis. We have got a reason to talk to them so let's start talking, and seeing if we can induce a change in their behavior and their understanding of the means to secure their national interests.

Often the issue with militarized regimes is not that they are paranoid, which is also a issue, but rather that they have an interest in status quo, as they feel their maximum benefit is derived from status quo. Perhaps the current players in East Asian scene - Japan, USA, South Korea, even Australia have all got an ossified image in North Korea, and it is difficult for North Koreans to change their pattern of thinking with respect to these political players. India could be a new player, and we could bring a completely new behavior and dynamics to our relationships there. The North Korean regime has to be shown that there can be more benefit in change than in status quo.

Perhaps Indians can invest in North Korea and put up some factories there, producing stuff for export to other markets in East Asia and beyond. May be North Korean regime would be willing to let Indians in, where it is suspicious of investments coming from elsewhere.

These are just some random ideas.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Sanku »

Manishw wrote: Please dont consider anybody with a less no. of post's to be Ignorant.That is Ignorance itself.What you say is incomplete.Only wanted to point that out but let's leave it at this.Thnx.
If I may Manish, Acharya has a style of his own, in the very early times on BRF he used to share detailed analyses and links etc and suggest methods etc the way most regular posters operate, in time he has taken to "pointing" rather than "telling" in detail.

I think I understand some of the reasons for change, but that discussion would be both OT and not what I want to get into -- I say this only to set the context, dont take his style personally, he is like this with all of us.
:mrgreen:
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Arihant »

TonyMontana wrote:
Acharya wrote: Can you tone down your response. We are trying to get some few folks to think and come up with a thought process. Your questions interrupt this thing.
To say questions are bad for thinking seems...Islamic to me. You don't give the posters enough credit if you think they can't hold a thought and scoll down at the same time.
Arihant wrote:
The whole point of leverage is the range of negotiating fallbacks that would be on offer. For instance, sooner or later China will stop recognizing India's sovereignty over all of the North-East. In subsequent negotiations, it might offer to relent, but only if given control over Taiwan.
Does India have a say in that? If not, where's the leverage?
Sorry that was a Freudian slip - I meant Tawang not Taiwan....
Arihant wrote: We need to get a better understanding of the subtleties of the Taiwanese situation. For starters, Taiwan is still known as the "Republic of China". Much as the majority of Taiwanese would like to see that changed, they are bound by some complex historical binds that prevent them from changing their own nation's name. That name is one of the "red lines" that China has identified - if Taiwan changes that name, it will be treated bythe Chinese as a trigger for war.
TonyMontana wrote: Thus the status quo. Do you see it changing anytime soon?
I was trying to make a different point - that Taiwan's formal name "Republic of China" is not indicative of the inclinations of its populace.



putnanja wrote: China is raking up issues by calling J&K disputed and issuing stapled visas. Just declaring that India intends to normalize relations with China will be a major snub to the chinese and they will be irked to death. Two can play this game.
TonyMontana wrote: You mean Taiwan right? China has something to gain from issuing stapled visas. What could India gain from normalising relationship with Taiwan besides irking the Chinese to death? When was last time someone was irked to death?
The point is of course to irk them to death, and subsequently play the good guy by offering to irk them a little less.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

Sanku wrote:
Manishw wrote: Please dont consider anybody with a less no. of post's to be Ignorant.That is Ignorance itself.What you say is incomplete.Only wanted to point that out but let's leave it at this.Thnx.
If I may Manish, Acharya has a style of his own, in the very early times on BRF he used to share detailed analyses and links etc and suggest methods etc the way most regular posters operate, in time he has taken to "pointing" rather than "telling" in detail.

I think I understand some of the reasons for change, but that discussion would be both OT and not what I want to get into -- I say this only to set the context, dont take his style personally, he is like this with all of us.
:mrgreen:
Thank's for the tip, appreciate as usual Sanku Ji. :)
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Arihant »

Sanjay M wrote:
Arihant wrote:The suggestion that Taiwan is a lost cause to us because it is under "pro-Chinese KMT rule" is a gross over-simplification. While there are some within the KMT who would welcome eventual annexation by China, the bulk of the KMTs support base is composed of people who favour the status quo, driven by fear of openly crossing swords with China. There is also some institutional continuity in Taiwanese "pro-Independence" thinking - as evidence, observe that Taiwan continues to heavily arm itself against China under the current KMT regime, and continues to lobby Washington for more and better weapons.
Good points - nevertheless, there are signs of Taiwan's new tilt towards China in supporting mainland's border claims against India.
Sanjay M: Those would be very worrying signs. Would be interested if you have any pointers/references?
Sanjay M wrote: I would prefer to see autonomists like Chen in power, rather than the unreliable KMT, whose lack of a domestic support base would only increase their dependency on ties to the mainland.
Likewise - I too would love to see the DPP return to power. My reading of the Taiwanese media suggests that there is a fairly good chance that it will in the next elections. Its leader Tsai Ing-Wen seems to be admired for her quiet, calm, almost "academic" style of leadership (her predecessor, former President Chen was more of a charismatic rabble-rouser...).

The KMT of course had a solid domestic support base when it came to power a couple of years back. Important to note though: its support base is a mixed bunch - largely composed of "status-quoists", plus a small minority of "we need to welcome Chinese annexation now" fanatics. I suspect current President Ma to be in the latter category, but he is an enigmatic figure, and carefully packaged. He has swung foreign, and economic policy in a somewhat different direction, but the Taiwanese establishment seems to have checks and balances of sorts, and he hasn't been allowed to swing too far...A lot of ex-DPP supporters switched sides because of the financial scandals surrounding President Chen ( he thought he could set aside some money for himself and family, in the hallowed tradition of prior Taiwanese Presidents, but got caught out because there was far greater transparency under his regime - ironic...).
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

^ Arihant you make good point's and anybody who has a cursory understanding of 'Taiwan' like me would agree.Wish you could share some of your insight's more with us, especially about how Taiwan and India can move towards a more mutually beneficial relationship?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ravit »

Willing to work with India for peace in South Asia: China
"would like to have a foothold in South Asia," Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu said
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RajeshA »

Willing to work with China for peace in East Asia: India
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RamaY »

^ We need a BRF friend to write such an article in mainstream media.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Venkarl »

Vishnu Som
Chackojoseph
R Vaidya....AFAIK :)
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RamaY »

I was thinking B Raman garu!

Added Later: No disrespect to others. Anyone with right contacts can do this.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by krisna »

China cannot be defeated militarily. No arguments here. Even uncle rules it out unless some mad man creates havoc.
Geography of china- it is not possible to invade china across most parts due to its regions- deserts/moutains and large areas to cover. Coastal areas are well connected. But that is where the majority of high profile assests are present and china is well equipped to defend it. Also it is new clear with long range mijjiles.
Only way china can be co opted with others or reduced in size is by diplomacy and economically which will take years.

some pointers to think about--
1) majority of chinese population is around the great rivers to the south east bordering the asean countries and coastal areas.
2) Rest of the chinese population is thinly spread out over a large territory of xinjaing Tibet and mongolia. hardly areas of significant infrastructure including roads.
3) Population around the coastal areas are richer than their counterparts elsewhere. Overall rich chinese are in a minority to the majority poor chinese.
4) core of china is in these areas around the major rivers of chinese south east. This is the only arable land in china (1/3 of the total china which has to feed the 1 billion population).The rest of the areas act like a buffer zones because these areas are vast and open with poor connectivity.
5) Whenever china is weak (core of china around the river plains) Tibet and mongolia becomes freer. same with xinjaing. When core becomes stronger these areas are reconquered.
6) Faultlines are purely socio economic-a) in the disparity of poor and rich chinese- this is one of the greatest fears of CCP. They want to make sure there is some equality in distribution wealth. it will also help quell the internal disturbances. Currently CCP is spending more money on quelling internal disturbances than on PLA to protect its power structure. b) economy is dependent on exports. It is a manufacturing powerhouse. If the countries like US become protectionist or the people refuse to buy due to bad economy then the chinese economy will suffer. It will lead to again internal disturbances. The main worry for CCP will be improving the economic conditions of the poor chinese so that they consume the goods internally. It will reduce their dependence on exports.
c) many of the cities are polluted and it has some of the worst pollution due to the industrialisation. The environmental impact may take some time. However Chinese are taking some steps to reduce this threat. d) demographics- growing old age and its burden. This can impact the economy some years down the line.

USA
US holds the key to the economy being the largest consumer of Chinese goods. China is trying to diversify its dollar assets. It is a difficult economic relationship between the two.

What India can do is to continue to grow economically, improve its living conditions/infrastructure/reduce income equality among its populations.
China attacking India militarily is very remote due to both being strong to ward of any attacks. Being new clear always helps.Currently china holds advantage as it has pakistan and POK as land route to gulf. It will not do anything to rock this position for now. It will prop up pakistan more than Uncle as US may lose interests if it leaves afghanistan(whether it actually leaves afghanistan is OT here)

ASEAN nations – India can partner with asean nations. Nations like Japan and South Korea can help us in many ways. They have technological base which India can exploit by offering a manufacturing base in India. It also counterbalances there fear of Chinese hegemony.
Laos Cambodia Burma Thailand are other nations which India must keep in mind. Some of them are poor and India can help them immensely by trade and commerce. Also they can make cheap goods similar to china if both US and India can partner here.


South Korea- china is the largest trading partner for south korea. India has been trying to co-opt soko in its plans. There has a been a flurry of visits to South Korea recently with extensive agreements signed in many areas which can benefit India.
But one factor which can help India vis a vis china is reunification-
North Korea and South korea both want reunification but on their own terms. Obviously south Korea is stronger in all respects. North Korea is isolated and has only china to prop up. If china does not support North Korea, it will collapse in a short time. Also recent cheonan incident when North Korea torpedoed South Korea ship and killed some sailors did not go down well in South Korea against china.
North Korea and South Korea are artificial countries and unification is the goal for both. Only china stands between the two. US may not prevent the unification as it will bring North Korea from isolation.It will be advantageous to it and the world in long run with less new clear proliferation by china thru North korea to Iran pakistan and others.
About koreans in china- as mentioned by RajeshA can be added to the above.
India will also have less to worry about green painted noko dung mijjiles across the borders.

edited- among all the countries involved, from Indian POV, control of POK is the best, South Korea comes next best. In terms of china damage it may be the reverse. :?: Of course we cannot isolate individual countries and name the price. FWIW IMHO.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RajeshA »

Checkmating China: China's North East (cont.)

Image

Three Kingdoms of Korea: Goguryeo, Silla, Baekje.

One can see the area of 'Greater Korea' which is part of PRC and where the Ethnic Koreans (Chaoxianzu/Joseonjok) live in China.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by krisna »

IDSA COMMENT Fruits of Antony’s visit to South Korea: Defence Ties Strengthen further
Unlike in the case of South Korea’s relations with Japan, neither India nor South Korean carry any historical baggage. On the contrary, South Korea cherishes with fond memory the major role India played at the conclusion of the Korean War in 1953 when it deployed a brigade to the UN peacekeeping mission which supervised the armistice that brought the conflict to an end.
Indeed, Antony’s visit was poised to boost military ties with the East Asian nation amidst a hushed row between India and China over visa denial to an Indian army officer and the presence of Chinese forces in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Beijing denied a visa to the senior Indian army officer because he was serving in Jammu and Kashmir, a state which China considers as disputed.
Coming against the backdrop of reports of a massive Chinese military build-up in Gilgit-Baltistan, the northern area of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, the strategic significance of Antony’s visit to South Korea cannot be overlooked.
India also has a strategic partnership with Japan and is now strengthening the same with South Korea. China’s alleged complicity in weapon development programmes in Myanmar and Pakistan is beyond doubt. If indeed some kind of “axis” is being formed between China, Pakistan and Myanmar, it would seem legitimate for India to sculpt a similar ‘axis’ with Japan and South Korea as a counterpoise to China’s design.
More recently, there has been a new thrust in India’s Look East policy, under which India has been making efforts to step up ties with South East Asian countries such as Singapore, Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam and Thailand. Understandably enough, India has been focusing on boosting military diplomacy by forging stronger military and strategic ties with foreign nations.
Indeed South Korea has marched ahead of Japan in naval ship-building technology and therefore both are seeking synergies in this potential area of cooperation for mutual benefit.4 India has also increased its military, especially maritime, engagement with countries in the Indian Ocean region. The role of the Indian Navy in anti-piracy operations off the Gulf of Aden is well appreciated by many countries in the region whose economic future lies in the smooth conduct of maritime commerce. For both Japan and South Korea, whose dependence on maritime trade off the IOR region is heavy, India’s predominant naval presence in the IOR is a positive factor and cooperation with the Indian Navy becomes inevitable.
Indeed, many South Korean companies are vying for Indian armed forces’ equipment acquisition programmes such as the basic trainer aircraft and naval warship construction contracts.
Antony acknowledged that the countries of Asia live in a “troubled neighbourhood” and therefore the region is “fragile”. It is a challenge for both India and South Korea to maintain balance and restraint in the face of grave challenges to their security.12 India has already emerged as an integral part of East Asia. As a founding member of the East Asia Summit, India’s stand on the emerging architecture in East Asia is that it should be open and inclusive and therefore in common agreement with the ASEAN Foreign Ministers’ decision to welcome the US and Russia into its fold.
china does not like India and US in the group.
As against China’s claim over the whole of South China Sea, India has openly declared that the South China Sea should remain open for international navigation, which is likely to provide common ground for both India and South Korea to cooperate on security matters.
Good moves by India. India should leverage its large market and forge an economic and defence relationship. Also likely there will be friction between all the 3 major powers - koreas/japan and china. it will be good for them to have India (likely US will support it)
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by krisna »

Asia's 'middle powers' seek to balance China -- think-tank
Asian "middle powers" are trying to increase their diplomatic and military clout in a bid to counter China's growing power, an international think-tank said in a report on Tuesday.
Indonesia, South Korea and Australia in particular were seeking ways for countries to work together across the region, the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies said.
Their moves were part of a general trend around the world as the United States and other western nations suffer aftershocks from the global financial crisis and the drain of involvement in Afghanistan.
It said there was a "growing awareness of the relentless growth of Chinese economic and military power and a feeling that China asserts itself more in the region."
Australia and Vietnam had notably increased their defence spending and invested in submarines and other military technology to deter future Chinese "adventurism." :evil:
Asian countries were also pressing for the involvement of China's fellow Asian giant India as a "balance" for China, though the two offer "comfort" to each other on their stance against the West on climate change.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

Good to see the SoKo strategy being pursued by GOI. So it wasn't just idle thoughts.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Arihant »

Manishw wrote:^ Arihant you make good point's and anybody who has a cursory understanding of 'Taiwan' like me would agree.Wish you could share some of your insight's more with us, especially about how Taiwan and India can move towards a more mutually beneficial relationship?
Manishw: Thanks. There's a range of options on what we could do with Taiwan (and many on this thread have made suggestions in this space). The question "What can India offer Taiwan?" keps cropping up. I think the simplest answer is greater international recognition. This is something that the Taiwanese crave. If you look at the Taiwanese media, an international basketball or lacrosse association giving Taiwan full membership is huge news. When the Boy Scouts association says Taiwan can't be a member, that is treated with great dismay (these are rhetorical examples - I can't remember if it was the Scouts or the basketball association - but you get the idea). For a while, it looked like getting Taiwan observer status in the World Health Assembly would be President Ma's crowning foreign policy achievement. Taiwan has diplomatic relations with only about 25 minor countries in Central/South America and Africa and the only reason these countries maintain diplmatic ties with Taiwan is the huge amount of money that Taiwan provides in aid to them. Every once in a while, that list gets smaller as China weans over another country with promises of even greater aid.

So India could start pushing the boundaries gently, for instance by announcing (perhaps with more fanfare than the news deserves) several new offices of TECO (the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office - their "unofficial" diplomatic reps in India - these guys get almost all privileges accorded to diplomats, but don't get to call themselves that).

To repay the J&K visa stapling issue in kind we could do the following: Our overseas posts require that visa applicants of Chinese birth pay an additional fee and go through extra processing and the Taiwanese are automatically treated as being under the ambit of that rule. We could still put applicants of Taiwanese birth through the extra processing, but perhaps mention Taiwan explicitly on the form and/or waive the extra fee (a small amount) for Taiwanese, or even create a new form for them to fill.

These are just the first couple of steps on the ladder. This might be a gross generalization/over-simplification, but the fact that they are friendless and lack international support (bar the US, whose support has appeared increasingly fickle in the recent past) looms large in the Taiwanese consciousness. We can redress that in many little ways.

Economic links are another interesting proposition. The earlier generation of Taiwanese had piles of hard-earned cash (for a long-time almost upto the late 90s, Taiwan had, from memory, the world's 3rd largest forex reserves, behind the US and Japan) which they needed to invest. Given the limitations in their language abilities (no English - only Mandarin Chinese) and cultural flexibility, China was the only place they could invest. The newer generation is more English-savvy and cosmopolitan, and could be easily inspired to invest in India.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Chinese Officials Call for Less Friction With U.S.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/world ... china.html
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

Arihant wrote: So India could start pushing the boundaries gently, for instance by announcing (perhaps with more fanfare than the news deserves) several new offices of TECO (the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office - their "unofficial" diplomatic reps in India - these guys get almost all privileges accorded to diplomats, but don't get to call themselves that).

To repay the J&K visa stapling issue in kind we could do the following: Our overseas posts require that visa applicants of Chinese birth pay an additional fee and go through extra processing and the Taiwanese are automatically treated as being under the ambit of that rule. We could still put applicants of Taiwanese birth through the extra processing, but perhaps mention Taiwan explicitly on the form and/or waive the extra fee (a small amount) for Taiwanese, or even create a new form for them to fill.

These are just the first couple of steps on the ladder. This might be a gross generalization/over-simplification, but the fact that they are friendless and lack international support (bar the US, whose support has appeared increasingly fickle in the recent past) looms large in the Taiwanese consciousness. We can redress that in many little ways.

Economic links are another interesting proposition. The earlier generation of Taiwanese had piles of hard-earned cash (for a long-time almost upto the late 90s, Taiwan had, from memory, the world's 3rd largest forex reserves, behind the US and Japan) which they needed to invest. Given the limitations in their language abilities (no English - only Mandarin Chinese) and cultural flexibility, China was the only place they could invest. The newer generation is more English-savvy and cosmopolitan, and could be easily inspired to invest in India.
Great Post Arihant if may say so.Let me share a few experiences along similar lines.It was in the year '05' that I and a colleague of mine had to visit Taiwan twice wrt official works when both of us used to work in U.S.Since then my only connection has been through the media in 'Taiwan'.
My friend trying to be polite and Ignorant of matter's geopolitical complimented our Hosts with a few word's on the greatness of Chinese huge economic Growth and boy we spent half an hour getting lectures and me trying to make them understand that my friend was Ignorant of matter's.
I have yet to meet a people who are more insecure with PRC(of course there might be others but talking only of the one's I have interacted with).Since then I have followed it in the media and it seems that the insecurity has only grown not only wrt PRC but with U.S also.I Inquired as to where do they see India in this picture and sadly they said that India is the only one capable of helping them in Asia but were having very low expectation's and did not register very much on their radars.This also now seems to be changing.
As to how we should go about I will follow up in later post's.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

Arihant forgot to Thank you for your insight's.I agree with everything you say except a minor nitpick
Arihant wrote: So India could start pushing the boundaries gently
Thing's should move on a war footing from now.The time to move gently and slowly is over.Thing's appear to be unraveling at great speed and we must prepare to do everything we we can that is feasible on a war footing. The Panda is acting strangely and menacingly and we must respond in kind.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Arihant wrote:
Manishw wrote:^ Arihant you make good point's and anybody who has a cursory understanding of 'Taiwan' like me would agree.Wish you could share some of your insight's more with us, especially about how Taiwan and India can move towards a more mutually beneficial relationship?
Manishw: Thanks. There's a range of options on what we could do with Taiwan (and many on this thread have made suggestions in this space). The question "What can India offer Taiwan?" keps cropping up. I think the simplest answer is greater international recognition. This is something that the Taiwanese crave. If you look at the Taiwanese media, an international basketball or lacrosse association giving Taiwan full membership is huge news. When the Boy Scouts association says Taiwan can't be a member, that is treated with great dismay (these are rhetorical examples - I can't remember if it was the Scouts or the basketball association - but you get the idea). For a while, it looked like getting Taiwan observer status in the World Health Assembly would be President Ma's crowning foreign policy achievement. Taiwan has diplomatic relations with only about 25 minor countries in Central/South America and Africa and the only reason these countries maintain diplmatic ties with Taiwan is the huge amount of money that Taiwan provides in aid to them. Every once in a while, that list gets smaller as China weans over another country with promises of even greater aid.

So India could start pushing the boundaries gently, for instance by announcing (perhaps with more fanfare than the news deserves) several new offices of TECO (the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office - their "unofficial" diplomatic reps in India - these guys get almost all privileges accorded to diplomats, but don't get to call themselves that).

To repay the J&K visa stapling issue in kind we could do the following: Our overseas posts require that visa applicants of Chinese birth pay an additional fee and go through extra processing and the Taiwanese are automatically treated as being under the ambit of that rule. We could still put applicants of Taiwanese birth through the extra processing, but perhaps mention Taiwan explicitly on the form and/or waive the extra fee (a small amount) for Taiwanese, or even create a new form for them to fill.

These are just the first couple of steps on the ladder. This might be a gross generalization/over-simplification, but the fact that they are friendless and lack international support (bar the US, whose support has appeared increasingly fickle in the recent past) looms large in the Taiwanese consciousness. We can redress that in many little ways.

Economic links are another interesting proposition. The earlier generation of Taiwanese had piles of hard-earned cash (for a long-time almost upto the late 90s, Taiwan had, from memory, the world's 3rd largest forex reserves, behind the US and Japan) which they needed to invest. Given the limitations in their language abilities (no English - only Mandarin Chinese) and cultural flexibility, China was the only place they could invest. The newer generation is more English-savvy and cosmopolitan, and could be easily inspired to invest in India.
Nice post, but still the question remains unanswered what can Taiwan offer us? Also don't forget the whole world, including India, sees Taiwan as a part of China. The official position of India is of one-china policy.
And are we going to engage taiwan just to rile China? IMHO we should be building relationships which help us. With Taiwan there is no fundamental or basic way in which taiwan can help us.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RajeshA »

Checkmating China: Counter-Alliance Framework

India's aim should be nuclearization of Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam.

That is the only means of stopping Chinese hegemony in East Asia.

The countries (Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan) have become too docile in the shadow of USA. There needs to be an alternative Asian military alliance countering China and its pitthus like NoKo, Pakistan, and Myanmar.

Such an alliance should have India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan as its core members. Each alliance member should make an effort to strengthen the position and capability of others. Australia and Singapore should also be considered.

India along with Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan should have both nuclear weapons and means to deliver them anywhwere in China.

USA should be given only observer status. That is good for USA and good for the alliance. It should look like an Asian initiative.
Last edited by RajeshA on 08 Sep 2010 14:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

^ Rajesh Ji, Sorry for the noob question but does Vietnam(for eg) require nukes unless nuclear energy is referred?Three gorges and the means to target is enough for them.Bliss to be corrected.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by RajeshA »

Manishw ji,

Vietnam is crucial because only Vietnam has sufficient tough boy image to act as a middleman for nuclear proliferation in the region, e.g. to Taiwan.

Secondly in East Asia, Vietnam would be the first base of revolt against Chinese hegemony, after whom then others can folloe suit. Vietnam would be the first country to have the guts to go nuclear.

Moreover possession of nukes is a great equalizer, both strategic and psychological.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Manishw »

^ Agree and thanks as usual Rajesh Ji.
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