Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[shiv]

Shiv saar those videos are made by you ? I thought you had a different evil handle for such stuff.

No kament

[Nihat]

X-posting Juggi's post from the Indian Army thread

India Today » Defence » Story
War Strategy : The Collapse of Cold Start
Sandeep Unnithan

One para that particularly caught my attention

Army officials confirm that the search is on for a new limited war doctrine that envisages a swift response without the army having to cross borders. It is likely to be 'airpower start', with air force jets joined by naval strikes and artillery assaults across the border.

Now, I don't know how reliable this particular journos "sources" in the army are but it's very likely that this is correct because of several percieved theoritical flaws in a land invasion based doctrine. I hope someone more knowledgeble would clarify these doubts for me.

Is it even possible to mobalize MBT's , entire Infantry divisions (supplies and logistics) , artilery guns , attack helies etc to the front line in 72 hours, give or take another day.

Even if mobalization time is reduced from one month (Op Parakram) to one week, won't it give enough time to TSP to also mobalize ground forces. Atleast in a defensive pousture and in significant numbers.

Making rapid shallow ingressions into TSP with significant CAS would tie up a large chunk of the IAF fleet. Won't numbers fall short for strategic bombing purposes , escorts, point interception, China front etc.

Lastly and most importantly, what are shallow penetrations into TSP even likely to achieve.


In light of all this , the above highlighted para is of extra significance. If we want to avoid the nuke threshold and give a befitting reply that costs TSP a lot then it's best to avoid crossing the border altogether. A co-ordinated IAF-IN with some elements of IA response will likely cause much more damage.

then the question arises , what do we lack in terms of military hardware and application for succesful implementation of such a doctrine.

For one , the cruise missile department is heavily lacking firepower. Only 1 Regiment i.e. 67 Brahmos LACM are in service currently , this is hopelessly inaqequte , especially for a weapon which will be of prime use in hitting terrorist hideouts in POK , army HQ's , supply dumps, tactical airbases , fuel depots etc.

Nirbhay continues to be a paper missile and is possibly the most vital weapon system that the armed forces are lacking. A mass produced long range, terrain hugging missile capable of hitting TSP across it's leangth and width without reprive is absolutly necessary for a blitzkreig to be succesful.

Other aspects such as submarines, extensive and multi layered SAM network , AEW coverage, airbase mordenization, large carrier base, Subs with SLCM's etc are all departments where we have been improving a lot off late and should be much better prepared in 5-7 yrs. time.

[shiv]

Only if we Indians could realise that we have already been there done everything they are doing now then there will be no need for such videos. Kiran, T-72, Migs, Jags, HDW subs, MKI etc etc.

Sid it is easy for an smart/ astute person such as many on BRF to move so far ahead that he does not understand how a slower person thinks. You can post dozens of videos with spectacular maneuvers done by the best aircraft in the business but nobody even notices. People often watch "videos" with only still photographs (basically a slideshow) as long as the "story" makes them feel good. This goes on until some Paki sets up a "You farted" suggestion when they highlight the "great maneuverability" of the JF-17. Of course these Pakis are also like the others. They too have not really observed the great videos that exist. But the effect that such a video has on Indian dhoti shiverers is lamentable and a psy ops disaster.

This whole thought process was started by a link in an earlier page of this very thread to a blog by some moronic Indian (I hope it is not a BRFite - but if he is that is my view) who has posted a video of JF-17's maneuverability. That is fine. The JF-17s show in Zhuhai was nimble, enjoyable and better than the J-10. That was a good Paki pilot doing some serious video eye candy. But the dhoti shivering comments in the Indian blog after that caught my eye because the blogger is a person who has never bothered observing an aerobatics video until he saw a Paki video called JF-17 maneuverability. The blog post observes that the JF 17 is better than the Mirage 2000. That is such an idiotic comment because the Mirage is a supremely agile aircraft and I have myself put up a splendid video clip of the Mirage 2000 doing things that the JF-17 will never do. Clearly the blog owner knows nothing. But he thinks he knows. Ignorance is one thing - but ignorance being passed off as knowledge using the power that the internet gives you creates a new paradigm for dhoti shivering and langoti browning going viral.

This idiocy needs to be fought robustly. Fire with fire. Shit with shit.

[rohitvats]

One para that particularly caught my attention

Army officials confirm that the search is on for a new limited war doctrine that envisages a swift response without the army having to cross borders. It is likely to be 'airpower start', with air force jets joined by naval strikes and artillery assaults across the border.

<SNIP>

You had posted a comment on similar lines about CSD and need to re-think our response and move it away from being IA centric. While the jury is still out on CSD and what exactly it stand for, allow me to post my opinion on this. Please consider the following:

(a) First, to say that CSD is IA centric is patently wrong. The need for IA to mobilize quickly and its Pivot Corps to have offensive capability to be able to punch through the TSPA defences in double-quick time is a pre-requisite - CSD being there or not.

(b) The fact of matter is that TSPA strike assets sit pretty close to the border - Now, even if we envisage that next retribution is going to be IAF or LACM led, there no saying how the TSP will react. It is not going to be tit-for-tat - PAF for IAF and Babur for Brahmos.

But one thing we do know is that it will react in a manner in which it feels it can land strongest punch. Now, what if the TSPA mobilizes the Mangla headquartered I Corps - the centerpiece of its ARN (Army Reserve North) and makes a dash to the IB and LOC? What happens then? The developments are not going to be linear and one cannot be imbalanced in one dimension and strong in another while taking these decisions.

(c) Now, assume that IX Corps has necessary stuff as part of CSD (presently it has two Infantry Divisions plus two (I) Armored Brigades) - an IBG - which is a fancy term and, even if IX Corps manages a RAPID+(I) Armored Brigade, that is an IBG. It will have the wherewithal to not only assume defensive posture but have counter-strike capability as well. So, we reduce the number of options available to TSPA by that much.

(d) IN will also require some time to come upto full speed - except for Arihant as SSGN on deterrence patrol with K-15.

(e) IMO, even the IAF will take 48hrs minimum to mount the offensive and the time here is not about rigging the strike a/c with weapons and LGB - but putting the entire western/northern/southern air front on standby for PAF counterstrike - after all, they will attack at their place and time of choosing. This involves getting the ORP in place, manning the SAM squadrons to alert levels and all the paraphernalia.

(f) Even some thing like assault by SF across the border will require that all Services are on standby for all eventualities. For a simple reason that if TSP lets this retribution by India go away answered in a big way or without inflicting very heavy/disproportionate response, it opens itself to other such reprisals.

So, to say that response is only IA centric is incorrect - what the IA is trying to do is mould the response timeframe from its side to the minimum - for we have to be ready for any eventuality.

[ParGha]

ParGha,
given all this, we should sooner or later move away from NFU and focus on a larger nuke buildup.

No, India should be looking at more nuanced and realistic policies like the NNFU policy ~ not start abandoning them. The moment India abandons its NNFU, it will be a signal for PRC to act on its threat that it "will run India into the ground in a nuclear arms race" (Chinese Defense Ministry, Sept 1998). No point in cutting off one's nose to spite somebody's face.

The realistic response would be to go ahead with the PAD development, improve nuclear tracking, targetting and counter-strike capabilities etc against the Pak assets while maintaining minimum credible deterrence against "outsiders" like the Chinese. Trust me, the Chinese don't care about India enough to jump heedlessly into an unrestricted conflict -- only the Paks do, so it is a problem well within India's capability to handle rationally.

[ParGha]

(a) First, to say that CSD is IA centric is patently wrong. The need for IA to mobilize quickly and its Pivot Corps to have offensive capability to be able to punch through the TSPA defences in double-quick time is a pre-requisite - CSD being there or not.

Bingo! In fact, I think this is MEA and the Defense Attache's primary reassurance to allies and neutral countries -- most of the acquisitions and training is just routine and much needed work. The current Holding Corps, from a unit to unit comparison, are much lighter and defensive than the host country's units, so what rational concern is it of theirs when normalization happens?

[rohitvats]

(a) First, to say that CSD is IA centric is patently wrong. The need for IA to mobilize quickly and its Pivot Corps to have offensive capability to be able to punch through the TSPA defences in double-quick time is a pre-requisite - CSD being there or not.

Bingo! In fact, I think this is MEA and the Defense Attache's primary reassurance to allies and neutral countries -- most of the acquisitions and training is just routine and much needed work. The current Holding Corps, from a unit to unit comparison, are much lighter and defensive than the host country's units, so what rational concern is it of theirs when normalization happens?

The present level of induction of weapon system is to simply make up for the shortfall and make for newer technologies.

Once the Republic of India actually puts the might of its finances behind its Services and IA in this case, we will not need any fancy term to describe our intent.

So fart, the concept of Strike Corps is in vogue because we need to concentrate scarce resources like Armored and Mechanized Infantry and SP AD assets. Next step is to start equipping the Pivot Corps with same level of equipment as your Strike Corps. Once that happens, CSD or no CSD, the TSPA goose is cooked well and proper.

[Gagan]

Doctrines may or may not be called CSD, but the fact remains that the increase in mobility and firepower, and streamlining of procedures, induction that happened post Parakram has made the IA a force that will respond swiftly and with overwhelming firepower.

Fine tunings like more Aerial strike and naval strike are an entirely new level of blitzkreig. We are talking in terms of hours of response time as opposed to 3 days with CSD. IAF airbases which border Pakistan and some key bases which border china are always on alert as it is. I really wonder how long will it take for the IAF to start air dominance and bombing runs from the word go, I suppose not many hours. Same with the Navy. The strike formations can reach the points from where Karachi and coastal cities can be targetted can be swiftly reached, primarily because of the range of the missiles that the IN deploys. I suspect the IN always mantains a level of readiness so that they can start taking out the pakistanis in a matter of hours from their designated launch points.

I wouldn't be fooled by claims that no CSD exists or that there is an ongoing search for a newer more nuanced doctrine. We are talking of even swifter retaliation to misadventure by the pakistanis here.

[abhik]

I think the most important point is to impose a cost (a real one) on pakistan for every act of belligerence/terror, and this some thing we have continuously failed to do, instead indulged in saber rattling at the most (like in 2003) and seemingly nothing in most other cases of terror. And whats worse is that we have on occasion even deluded ourself into believing in that we have dealt them a great blow like in Kargil(when the dust settled pakistan was still holding some land on the Indian side of the LOC , "what about all those PA KIA ?"- the way I see it they all became shaeed,met their 72 if you may and were replaced).
I agree with PraGha , abandoning NFU serves absolutely no purpose. And by the way if we now announce that any terrorist act sponsored any country will be responded to with a nuclear attack and that is our redline, Will pak stop terror?

[James B]

I see some ripples on the metal underside of LERXs of Bandar (compared to rest of the body). Is it because of cheap chinese metal which cannot with stand high pressure or some aerodynamic concept?.

[Nihat]

You had posted a comment on similar lines about CSD and need to re-think our response and move it away from being IA centric. While the jury is still out on CSD and what exactly it stand for, allow me to post my opinion on this. Please consider the following:

(a) First, to say that CSD is IA centric is patently wrong. The need for IA to mobilize quickly and its Pivot Corps to have offensive capability to be able to punch through the TSPA defences in double-quick time is a pre-requisite - CSD being there or not.

(b) The fact of matter is that TSPA strike assets sit pretty close to the border - Now, even if we envisage that next retribution is going to be IAF or LACM led, there no saying how the TSP will react. It is not going to be tit-for-tat - PAF for IAF and Babur for Brahmos.

But one thing we do know is that it will react in a manner in which it feels it can land strongest punch. Now, what if the TSPA mobilizes the Mangla headquartered I Corps - the centerpiece of its ARN (Army Reserve North) and makes a dash to the IB and LOC? What happens then? The developments are not going to be linear and one cannot be imbalanced in one dimension and strong in another while taking these decisions.

(c) Now, assume that IX Corps has necessary stuff as part of CSD (presently it has two Infantry Divisions plus two (I) Armored Brigades) - an IBG - which is a fancy term and, even if IX Corps manages a RAPID+(I) Armored Brigade, that is an IBG. It will have the wherewithal to not only assume defensive posture but have counter-strike capability as well. So, we reduce the number of options available to TSPA by that much.
.

First off , thanks for your input rohit - I've always enjoyed reading your opinion on anything IA.

My idea was more related to finding the balance between nuke redline and severe punishment for TSP (all of it within the window of a few days). Certainly you are right when you mention the need for rapid mobalization to counter any eventuality which may follow an Indian first strike and ofcourse the threat of a land Invasion is necessary too so that PA does not get any ideas. Also, surely TSP would have learnt from it's own history that any intrusion into Indian land be it 65, 71 or 99 is doomed to failure owing to the superior firepower and staying ability of IA.

However, unless TSPA decides to violate the LoC / IB - IA should perhaps refrain from doing so itself and let IAF and IN take the lead in the offensive as they have the ability to hit anywhere in Pakistan within the shortest notice and with the greatest firepower. The psycological impact of of watching sea ports destroyed, army HQ's razed to rubble and major cities being hit and images beamed across TSP will cause a much greater loss and cause a bigger blow to TSP economically / H & D wise than the IA can land.

IN and IAF can hit much faster and deeper than IA and with much more devastation with the potential for lesser casualties on our side. Never do I mention that IA has no role in a post-terror attack retribution by India but more on the lines of IN and IAF taking the lead for offensive Ops. while IA mobalizes quickly to deprive TSP the advantage of it's short lateral distances to the frontline while as you said , reducing their options.

[abhik]

I see some ripples on the metal underside of LERXs of Bandar (compared to rest of the body). Is it because of cheap chinese metal which cannot with stand high pressure or some aerodynamic concept?.

I think you can see these "ripples" even in airliners on their wings(at least when they are in the air).

[Viv S]

The present level of induction of weapon system is to simply make up for the shortfall and make for newer technologies.

Once the Republic of India actually puts the might of its finances behind its Services and IA in this case, we will not need any fancy term to describe our intent.

So fart, the concept of Strike Corps is in vogue because we need to concentrate scarce resources like Armored and Mechanized Infantry and SP AD assets. Next step is to start equipping the Pivot Corps with same level of equipment as your Strike Corps. Once that happens, CSD or no CSD, the TSPA goose is cooked well and proper.

Agreed completely. Increased funding and accelerated acquisitions will eventually lead to a much higher level of mechanization within the army. More than enough to equip eight divisions to NATO standards.

That said, when push comes to shove, the IA will probably not be the primary coercive option irrespective of the CSD. Correct me if I'm wrong but the IAF has been rather cool to the idea of dedicated air support as envisaged by the army's strategists/think-tanks. And rightly so. Given its overwhelming superiority in the air - over 240 4th gen aircraft to 55 in the PAF inventory - with the gap only likely to grow, the IAF actually has the capability to knock-out/ground the PAF. The IN's superiority is even more stark - the PN threat comprises entirely of 3 subs and 2 frigates (to increase to 4)... all medium tech. The IN has the capability to bring the Pakistani economy to its knees if given the political go-ahead to enforce a blockade. Both moves are unlikely to push the Paks over the nuclear threshold while administering far worse punishment than the (temporary) loss of land at the border/LoC.

To be fair though, the CSD gives India the option of sitting on any land captured for a couple of years creating a potent bargaining chip on negotiations on Siachen and Sir Creek if not Kashmir. Problem is that such a plan may well snowball out of control. Also from a military perspective it will be harder to defend an incursion across a broad frontage from counter-attacks.

[Katare]

Who cares what they would do, India may attack first with nuclear bombs if push comes to shove. Kalamji said no treaty, commitment or law applies when "supream national interests" are on line.

Why bother where there tolrance lines are? A soldier goes to war knowing well that he might get hurt or die, than why civilians (aeven @ BRF) want to go to war but neither wants to get hurt nor willing to die? If you want to fight have courage to take what enemy throws at you and give it back before he gets a chance to do so. Nuts, irrational or whatever once you come out with intent to confront, kill or get killed, they all beome very rational and masoom-victims in no time.

[shiv]

I see some ripples on the metal underside of LERXs of Bandar (compared to rest of the body). Is it because of cheap chinese metal which cannot with stand high pressure or some aerodynamic concept?.

I think you can see these "ripples" even in airliners on their wings(at least when they are in the air).

Would you be able to show some photos of airliners with such ripples? I don't recall seeing such a huge degree of rippling over such a small area. And it is generally visible only in a tangential perspective, not an orthogonal view such as this. On an Indian aircraft it would be called "shoddy manufacture" or "poor finish".

James B - good catch. A few oil streaks as well down the middle of the fuselage. There appears to be a twin barrel cannon pod under the port intake duct.

On close examination other surface irregularities are evident near the mainwheel doors. There appear to be two bulges for the tyres. Check the left (port) side. Also look at the front edges of the two nosewheel doors

[vavinash]

Yup..The build quality of JF-17 seems pretty poor. Anyways IAF needs to concentrate on LCA and not what rif raff PAF or PLAAF are inducting.

[Manish_P]

The 'ripples' are not that uncommon, Shiv Ji

Check this pic - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -00030.jpg

[shiv]

The 'ripples' are not that uncommon, Shiv Ji

Check this pic - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -00030.jpg

I call that a shoddy finish on an Amriki aircraft. But my post is in the genre of "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander". If this is not a shoddy finish for China and the US - anyone who finds something similar on an Indian aircraft and calls it shoddy will he hauled over the coals by me. Either it is shoddy or it is not. It can't be shoddy for India and "normal" or "good" for the US or China

I don't think you will find such ripples on the Rafale or the F-35.

[Singha]

I have never seen it on wings of 737/A320 series as also any of the MRCA players. looks like the 'hungry horse effect' on ships which sail in the open sea.

the carrier based heavy planes like E2/C2 undergo high impact landings everyday and can perhaps be excused for showing their ribs after a while...

[SaiK]

May be the thundar was intentionally done so for stealth reasons ribbed deflection advanced materials.

[ramdas]

ParGha,

But we have, to an extent moved away from unconditional NFU. Our NSA has recently said "NFU against NNWS". In any case, minimallity of the deterrent should be only for namesake. We should make sure that we have many more nukes than TSP at least. If the NPA claim of TSP having a larger arsenal is true,that is disturbing. We should embark on a counter buildup...

[abhik]

Would you be able to show some photos of airliners with such ripples?

I was saying form personal observation, though "depressions" would have been a more appropriate word rather than "ripples "

I don't recall seeing such a huge degree of rippling over such a small area. And it is generally visible only in a tangential perspective, not an orthogonal view such as this.

true.

[neerajb]

Google attributes the wrinkles to oil canning common to aircrafts with sheet metal skins and it doesn't reflects the build quality. In JF-17 the probable cause of those wrinkles is buffeting of the LERX due to the excessive vortices it produces even during mild maneuvers.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Thomas-C ... 1f4f69d05c

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Ai ... 0923897/M/

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Brazil-- ... 07fab55b55

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Lufthans ... 07fab55b55

Cheers....

[James B]

Neeraj,

But why don't we see these so called wrinkles/ripples on other fighters?. In your pictures we see these wrinkles only on big planes which might experience high pressure while landing due to its own weight and the cargo/passengers they carry.

Here is something I got from Google chacha about Oil Canning

What is Oil Canning? How is It Spotted? What Problems Dose It Cause? Dose It
Affect Airworthiness? If So How Is It Resolved or Fixed?

It applies to airplanes made of sheet metal, specifically those
areas of the structure that have flat areas. If that flat area is
large enough, and has no stiffeners behind it, it will tend to flutter
in and out like the skin on a drum and cause rumbling noises.
Most of the time it's not critical, just annoying, and doesn't look
good on the airplane, since the skin will be a bit wavy. If the skin
vibrates enough, though, it could fatigue along its fastener points
(rivets) and crack.
Some builders, I've heard, will heat the sheet with a heat lamp
before and during the installation process so that the sheet will
tighten afterward as it cools and come smooth and resist oilcanning.

http://www.airtalk.org/image-vp246475.html

[Singha]

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 676173.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 566668.jpg
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-p ... 577627.jpg

no evidence on F18 - but then it has a splitter plate and hole so maybe that reduce stress vs bandar DSI intake (the stolen material on DSI intake may have missed this analysis)

F18 LERX extends almost upto nosecone...engine intake starts where LERX ends
Bandar air intake and LERX start are in same line with DSI bulge ahead....the airflow physics will be different

[rohitvats]

Now, I generally don't talk about these things but the close-up pic of bandar is not flattering at all....I mean, the a/c looks unclean...no clear lines and even the finish reminds of close-up shots of Mig-17/19 clones by China....may be, the photo-shop license had expired.....but knowing the Chinese, I'm sure they don't have original photoshop license as well...the 'xeroxed' version might have crashed.....the 'xeroxed' pentium chin (might be named 'chentium') could not support the high end application....

[neerajb]

In the early MiG-35's demo the wrinkles were visible, though that was an old modified MiG-29 which explains it. IMHO design of the aircraft and building methods are responsible for wrinkles. Carbon fiber ones should be less succeptible to oil canning whereas tin can bander, quite evidently, exhibits the problem even though it won't be more than a couple of years old. It could be wrong aerodynamics as Singha mentioned. But I feel those consistent sticky vortices are the real culprit.

Cheers....

[shiv]

Google attributes the wrinkles to oil canning common to aircrafts with sheet metal skins and it doesn't reflects the build quality. .

Why go though so much trouble to explain away shoddiness? Did you look at the skin folds visible outboard of the aft end of each mainwheel door? And the unevenly closed doors? I suppose Googal chacha would have some jin-chak explanation for that also.

[Lalmohan]

the same issue was commented on by western observers when the first Mig29's started touring the western airshows. the issue was ascribed to 'relevant build quality' - i.e. areas which are non-critical are finished to a (cheaper) relevant build quality, whereas a critical area would be built to a high standard. So, these non-critical areas might be more roughly riveted or show signs of buckling, etc. Does not necessarily mean that it is poor quality

we might extrapolate the same logic to chinese manufacturing techniques

[sunilpatel]

by China....may be, the photo-shop license had expired.....but knowing the Chinese, I'm sure they don't have original photoshop license as well...the 'xeroxed' version might have crashed.....the 'xeroxed' pentium chin (might be named 'chentium') could not support the high end application....

Perfect!!!
but on a worrying side; this bunder is going to be worrying factor for IAF very soon; if these begger get them in enough quanity from chimpanzies...
airframe wise its just OK; nothing new- nothing bad.
Engine Power- OK.
they need to improve Radar & avionics...
and i m sure; they will get it from elsewhere for fight against terrorism...

[shiv]

Would someone please explain the marked features in the photo?

[rohitvats]

^^^Shiv I have perfect explanation for all this:

Think of this a/c as Pakistani wh*re just out of GUBO session with some tallen than molehill fliends who has been asked to do mujra for the minions......she has not had the time to put here tresses in order and put the pallu back in place and lower the ghagra properly......the leaking oil can be described in a way you know how...

A more romantic expression would be - "Teri zulf bata rahi teri raat ka afsana......" but in this case, no such niceties....it is anytime any place.

"ducks for cover....."

[neerajb]

Google attributes the wrinkles to oil canning common to aircrafts with sheet metal skins and it doesn't reflects the build quality. .

Why go though so much trouble to explain away shoddiness? Did you look at the skin folds visible outboard of the aft end of each mainwheel door? And the unevenly closed doors? I suppose Googal chacha would have some jin-chak explanation for that also.

My comment was specific to wrinkling skin at LERX only. Shoddines will mean that it was not fabricated as it should have been i.e. poor workmanship but what the poor chap can do when it is a design issue i.e. metal sheet design with less stiffners or poor shaped LERX which results in extremem buffeting (again my speculation). If wrinkling is shoddy than going by the "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" MiG-29 and all the civilian/military planes which are referrenced are shoddy too!

Does it look beautiful? No, but it works and quite acceptable. Had it been on Tejas, Would it have looked ugly? Yes but if it works, it's Ok and all this while no dhoti shivering/introspection involved.

Cheers....

[Lalmohan]

incidentally, almost all aircraft (particularly military ones) leak oil like crazy, probably due to the high cyclic loads on the airframe and tubing

[shiv]

There are some times in life when one does not talk about poor finish. There are other times when one's mind cannot be diverted from the issue of shoddiness. And there are times in life when one knows a thing or two about oil leaks. Then there are other times when oil leaks are a sign of extreme shoddiness. It's all about timing..

[Lalmohan]

well if you mean that the bandar is leaking gubo oil from all orifi and is beat up and bent out of shape and is wibbling and wobbling, then ofcourse one would have to agree with you...

[negi]

Whoa bandar has b00b$ ! Now I know why everyone in deaf and dumb is fawning over it's beauty.

[Indranil]

I do not quite agree with the bashing of the bunder here.

Oil canning is a known phenomenon to exist when a sheet metal body goes through high stress. It is not because of poor workmanship. It is a design consideration. One can do away with that by strengthening ... but it is generally not required and hence is dropped in favour of weight savings.

The amount will certainly vary based not only on the length but also the width of the sheet between joins.

Also the oil leaks are not a major concern. It is seen on all planes.

We can point out that the landing gear doors are not flush with the body.

May be that the Bunder doesn't have a good finish, but pointing out oil canning and oil leaks is not the best of critiques in my IMHO.

also I remember reading good things about the finish of the JF-17 from the Farnborough appearance.

[Lalmohan]

oil leaks were used as part of the camoflauge effect on aircraft by allowing smearing of oil and dust to dull off the bright aluminium finish

[negi]

Indranil, Bandar can be bashed on genuine points, regarding it's better finish oh yes better than the F-7s may be Mirage-IIIs too so what gives ?