Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Pratyush]

ashokpachori ji,

The number 150 is a conjusture on my part agreed. But the Industrial capability being created for the weapon suggests that the numbers/ produced per year will grow substantially.

[ashokpachori]

ashokpachori ji,

The number 150 is a conjusture on my part agreed. But the Industrial capability being created for the weapon suggests that the numbers/ produced per year will grow substantially.

Thats what is the key "substantial" in the above statement.

But we need to have certain numbers against the huge demand of 3000 Brahmos within a reasonable time frame to satisfy our security needs (1000 Brahmos) as well as our overseas clients (2000 Brahmos) with whom we have entered (future scenario) into contractual obligations.

[Singha]

150 brahmos is a per day requirement if we are to rock the lizard back on his heels!

production needs to be around 500/annum to have any sense of chaddi safety.

[Pranav]

150 brahmos is a per day requirement if we are to rock the lizard back on his heels!

production needs to be around 500/annum to have any sense of chaddi safety.

And I don't see why 150 missiles per day should be that hard. There are plenty of car companies that make 150 cars per day.

Also, are we better of with a miniaturized K-series missile (mach 8 approx) rather than Brahmos?

[Yagnasri]

To go for balastic missile at the start it self will be a serious escalation which we may not want to do at the start of the war. In case of no of brahmos needed let us see if we are going for a heavy missile attacks at the start of the war just like us did or not.

If i recollect US had some 2000 Toma hocks before the start of gulf war1. Are we going for such attack on the major targets and create a shock and owwwooo aaaa's etc. I dont think so.

[ashokpachori]

150 brahmos is a per day requirement if we are to rock the lizard back on his heels!

production needs to be around 500/annum to have any sense of chaddi safety.

And I don't see why 150 missiles per day should be that hard. There are plenty of car companies that make 150 cars per day.

Also, are we better of with a miniaturized K-series missile (mach 8 approx) rather than Brahmos?

Industrial robots are used in automatic car assemblies, so there is a difference.


K is SLBM, the other is universal cruise missile, both are very different from each others.

[Pranav]

K is SLBM, the other is universal cruise missile, both are very different from each others.

True. But some militaries are beginning to evolve responses to Brahmos class missiles - for example the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-162_ESSM). Mach 2.8 may no longer be enough, and scramjets are not available as of now. Which is why it might be worth thinking about a miniaturized K-series missile.

[Viv S]

Is the Brahmos required in huge numbers? Frankly I wouldn't have been particularly disappointed if a land based variant was never produced. Its an expensive missile that is best employed against a $50 million warship rather than a fuel/ammo dump. The missile's enormous kinetic energy at impact has limited utility against target on land. Now the Nirbhay on the other hand, is perfect for precision attacks against enemy command nodes and logistics with a much bigger warhead and a greater range. An even more cost-effective solution would be something like the JDAM-ER - 80km range and priced below $50,000.

[ashokpachori]

$50 million warship rather than a fuel/ammo dump

Its quasi same thing value wise.

Single fuel tank holds million gallons of fuel (thats 3 million USD), all it takes is a explosion to set the chain reaction/domino effect to wipe out entire (cluster) depot.




Imo above should be worth 100 million USD.

Cost of golden gate like suspended bridge, 1.5 billion dollars.

[kvraghav]

^^^
The targets you mention are worth the effort but i dont think there are more than 200 such targets,300km from our border and which can be taken out fully by a 300kg warhead both including pak and china..

[ashokpachori]

^^^
The targets you mention are worth the effort but i dont think there are more than 200 such targets,300km from our border and which can be taken out fully by a 300kg warhead both including pak and china..

I was replying to specific, selective portion of the post.

However, what leads you to think there would be a war between India and Pakistan, so much so that you came to above specifics?

Heart of India, its Capital and its Parliament got attacked, yet no reprisal from India, Pakistani comedians still being imported;)

India lacks political will to fight.

[kvraghav]

^^
The political will and stuff is OT here.We speak for brahmos.Pray tell me,what target are present in hundereds,at a distance of 300 kms from a Brahmos launch platform?Apart from land,is there any platfrom from which we can deploys hundreds of them together?

[ashokpachori]

^^
We speak for brahmos.Pray tell me,what target are present in hundereds,at a distance of 300 kms from a Brahmos launch platform?Apart from land,is there any platfrom from which we can deploys hundreds of them together?

So dont use Brahmos, they are just short range cruise missile. Bring anything else in India´s arsenal, who is stopping whom.

[ramana]

I think this arguement is getting side-tracked and polemic. Unless you all have something techincal to contribute please take your discussion elsewhere.

Thanks,
ramana

[Juggi G]

India Orders Six More Squadrons Of Akash Missile Systems

India Orders Six More Squadrons Of Akash Missile Systems
Dec 16, 2010
By Anantha Krishnan M.
BENGALURU, India

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed orders for six more squadrons of Akash Missile Systems (AMS) worth Rs 5,000 crore ($1.1 Billion).

Bengaluru-based Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) will be the principal integrator for the systems. BEL is currently executing the first order for two AMS squadrons (48 missiles) for the IAF worth Rs 1,221 crore ($269.5 million).

The Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) confirmed to Aviation Week Dec. 16 that the additional orders have come as a huge boost to India’s indigenous military program. “The fact that the user [IAF] has placed additional orders shows the growing confidence they have in homegrown products,” a senior DRDO official says. “IAF will benefit immensely from these orders as they can get whatever modifications to AMS done within no time. Time, cost overruns and delay in getting spares won’t be major issues anymore.”

BEL is expected to complete these additional orders in the next 3-5 years, while the first AMS squadron will be delivered to the IAF within a month to be positioned at Gwalior Air Base.

This past June, India’s Defense Acquisition Council cleared the army version of AMS, worth Rs 12,500 crore ($2.78 Billion). The Indian government is likely to place the army order on Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd. — a move aimed at developing a healthy competition among defense public sector undertakings.

Indian industry will be a direct beneficiary to the latest orders from IAF. “With the combined orders of IAF and Army, we are looking at continuous production activities spread across 5-8 years,” a source says. “Then there’s a likelihood of more orders and new versions. Again the spotlight would fall on small- and medium-scale approved industries. The services can also look forward [to] continuous on-site product support.”

[Ameet]

Side note: U.S. missile-defense test fails over Pacific

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1566818820101215

A test of the sole U.S. defense against long-range ballistic missiles failed on Wednesday, the second failure in a row involving the system managed by Boeing Co (BA.N), the Defense Department said.

The miss brought the so-called ground-based midcourse defense's batting record to eight intercepts out of 15 tries, as reckoned by the Missile Defense Agency.

[dinesha]

DRDO to test advanced defence interceptor next week
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/DRDO- ... eek/725836

Undeterred by the December 11 failure of Agni-II prime ballistic missile test flight —— the missile fell into the sea a few seconds after launch —— the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is planning to test the advanced Air Defence Interceptor on December 22 and 24. Two earlier tests of the interceptor ended in failure.

The test on Wheeler Island off Orissa coast will see an interceptor missile destroy an incoming ‘hostile’ missile mid-flight over the Bay of Bengal. This test, sources said, is meant to observe the “operational effectiveness of the indigenously developed high-speed interceptor missile”.

A modified Prithvi missile, to be launched from the Chandipur Integrated Test Range, will “mimic” a hostile ballistic missile, the sources said.

The DRDO will also flight-test the indigenously developed micro-light drone Lakshya at the Chandipur Test Range on December 20. Lakshya is a sub-sonic, re-usable drone meant for aerial reconnaissance of battlefield and target acquisition. Lakshya has seen nearly 200 launches so far. It was last successfully tested in November 2009.

Lakshya can be launched from land as well as a ship and then recovered by a parachute system on land or at sea. It’s Ground Control Station and Telemetry Station allows pilotless control of aircraft and real time data acquisition.

[Singha]

wonder why the lakshya is kept on testing - towing some target for new SAM/radars to attempt tracking ?

[Pratyush]

This particular item could from the new production batch of the vehicle.

[sum]

^^ Or it could be similar to the multiple Prithvi tests ( a.k.a, the great Yindoo smokescreen)?

[Philip]

Viv is quite right.Brahmos is just too expensive to be sprayed at low cost targets.These would be better dealt with with PG ordnance,dumb bombs made "smart" with add on kits as posted somewhere.We need a holistic range of missiles of varied range,speed,capability and cost.These would have to be super/hyper sonic missiles like Brahmos,LR cruise missiles like Nirbhay,the BM Agni and K series,Prithvis, plus a range of ASMs ,some already in service that are foreign and carried by our aircraft.LR/ER rockets like Smerch/Pinaka with terminal guidance would add to the pile.Planned Brahmos production rates are not known as well.

The best off service is the IN with such a motley range,deserving of a supermarket shelf! Just take a dekko at the anti-ship missiles,Olde Styx variants,Uran,Klub-in all its variants,Brahmos,Sea Eagle (pensioned off?),Exocet for the Scorpenes,and even Harpoons for the
P-8s! The ATV will have its K-15s too.Christmas has indeed come early for the IN and when the LR Nirbhay or whatever the LR cruise missile is going to be named,the champagne corks will be pop!

[Singha]

nirbhay has not even entered flight testing yet. will take 5-7 yrs to IOC after 1st test and 3 more yrs to full enter production mode. so until 2020 we are nanga and some way beyond that to get a decent nirbhay inventory going.

[dinesha]

Brahmos is in existence since last 6-7 years. China and even Pakistan must have done some simulations to devise strategies to counter the Air/Land/Sea version.
If somebody can shed some light on possible ways to counter Brahmos?
Can SM3 with 500KM range and 3.5 Mach provide reliable defence against Navel Brahmos?

[Lalmohan]

there is no known defence againts brahmos
it penetrates all defences, extensive studies against Augis class frigetes have proven this
all chini simulations have yielded the same negative results
that is why they initiated visa stapling

[JTull]

there is no known defence againts brahmos
it penetrates all defences, extensive studies against Augis class frigetes have proven this
all chini simulations have yielded the same negative results
that is why they initiated visa stapling

[Kanson]

Or it if what to a borrow a sentence, why these three are scratching each others back.

I just got time to go throu' this episode fully. Few observation and comments.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/ag ... -myth.html


I don't know why this silly fight over a picture linking BRF & with comments in a such distasteful way. First of all, I doubt any one in BRF would have made such silly mistake to misrepresent Agni-2 missile to have completely different RV. Again, I doubt anyone here would have done the mistake of painting the Indian Flag facing down.

Aroor would have missed this. But PS who is calling himself not a journalist take no time in throwing hatred in such a open and blinded manner at BRF. Is this pic credited to any BRFite? This is the first mistake from PS.

PS said:

Sandeep Unnithan's conclusions are indeed sound and factual. FYI Sandeep's father is from the Navy and the story he recently wrote about the SLBM for INDIA TODAY was in fact, based on a comprehensive but off-the-record (for obvious reasons) briefing given to him about present and projected efforts by the DRDO aimed at developing long-range SLBMs.

and further said:

These BRF-ites will go to the ends of the earth to malign folks like Sandeep Unnithan for no fault of his. That's the only reason I spoke up, as a matter of principle, in Sandeep's defence, although I've never met him nor have I spoken to him.

So the dear PS never met him or spoken to him but come to the understanding that SU was given comprehensive and deep briefing by DRDO? Hey, let me ask, how many articles Sandeep Unnithan showed such deep understanding in DRDO related projects but not navy related? If anyone cared, most of Sandeep's articles are Navy related projects. ATV, K-series, Barak to name a few. It was his contacts throu Navy that Sandeep gained such "deep and comprehensive" understanding, if any.

In the game of shaming BRF, PS blindly jumped the gun. Second mistake.

If he want to shoot his hatred from the shoulders of Sandeep Unnithan, where is he going to put his face if he changed his stand ? Will not he get thumped in the nose from the same people he is throwing his hatred at?

Sandeep in his earlier article, mentioned, Sagarika missile is a drdo project quoting a statement from then RM Pranab on this. And in his latest article, he says Sagarika which he says is another name of K-series missile is a Navy project. Let me caution PS, if he is going to ride too much on someone's shoulder, he is going to get snubbed sooner. His blind hatred is not going to earn him anything other than hatred and he is digging his own grave.

What is Aroor doing sitting on allowing such hatred ? A blog is his personal space and cannot relinquish his responsibility for allowing such hatred. Is he literally scratching PS back as well as SU's? Such a spineless act from Aroor? Or he too wants to shoot from someone's shoulder?

[ashokpachori]

Brahmos is in existence since last 6-7 years. China and even Pakistan must have done some simulations to devise strategies to counter the Air/Land/Sea version.
If somebody can shed some light on possible ways to counter Brahmos?
Can SM3 with 500KM range and 3.5 Mach provide reliable defence against Navel Brahmos?

SM3 is no silver bullet. Had it been so, Uncle Sam would not be loosing sleep against chinese carrier killing missile. They foresee pearl harbour, albeit this time from China sans Kamikaze. There is hardly anything SM3 can do against sea skimming, supersonic multi Brahmos coming in from varying flight profiles, job would get done after all.

[shiv]

I just got time to go throu' this episode fully. Few observation and comments.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/ag ... -myth.html

Well Kanson thanks to the active participants on that blog you now find one person's name and one word linked together by Google. The man has contributed to his own fame by taking part enthusiastically in the proceedings.

Click here

[vivek_ahuja]

What bothers me a bit is that all this stuff about sea-skimming maneuvering Brahmos et. al. is that in order for the missile to do anything from a decent range, it cannot do all of the above stuff.

Flying at sea level is costly in terms of drag. The Brahmos gets its range of 300 Km from going from launch conditions to its cruise altitude of 14000m, cruising there for some time in low drag conditions and then resuming the final phase of the flight in terminal, low levels. It then gets 300Km range from such a profile.

At continuous sea level flying straight and true, you end up with around 120 Km or so in range.

Add maneuvering at those speeds and you bleed off further energy, thereby reducing range if final KE is to be maintained for ensuring penetration of target defenses. Supersonic maneuvering is heavy on energy bleed. Modifying the software to allow the missile to do a certain maneuver is one thing, but unless more juice has been filled in, its going to come at some other compromise.

You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

So the question is this:

a) if the missile has to maneuver and maintain the supersonic KE to be able to evade target defenses, then what range (surely less than 100km?) will it have?
b) If you want to do terminal maneuvers but maintain original profile (at alt 14000m) for longer range, you basically have this flying cylinder moving at Mach 3 or so at 50,000 feet when it is around 100km away from a target defense zone. Does this not make it look basically like a aircraft profile attempting to release a generic ASM?

In other words, the only way you can make Brahmos any different from the rest of the generic ASM delivery characteristics is if you have continuous low altitude and Mach 3 KE during final maneuvers, all of which would make the effective range of the Brahmos around 100Km unless the DRDO folks have done some changes to the missile aero-propulsive characteristics.

Correct me if I am wrong on this...

-Vivek

[ashokpachori]

a) if the missile has to maneuver and maintain the supersonic KE to be able to evade target defenses, then what range (surely less than 100km?) will it have?

b) If you want to do terminal maneuvers but maintain original profile (at alt 14000m) for longer range, you basically have this flying cylinder moving at Mach 3 or so at 50,000 feet when it is around 100km away from a target defense zone. Does this not make it look basically like a aircraft profile attempting to release a generic ASM?

The missile's range is 300 km (high-low profile) or 120 km (low profile. These ranges include maneuvers, so theoretically a missile could reach longer distances if it flew directly. The missile's speed is Mach 2.3 at high altitude and Mach 1.5 at low altitude. The passive radar mode enables the missile to detect active jamming sources and use them for homing.

[John]

) if the missile has to maneuver and maintain the supersonic KE to be able to evade target defenses, then what range (surely less than 100km?) will it have?

Missile turns on the seeker gets lock on the target then dives to 5 -10 meters and performs the terminal maneuvers (zig-zag) at around 10-30 Kms from the target. How much the maneuvers affect the range comes down to what maneuver it is performing and how it increases the total duration of the flight.

b) If you want to do terminal maneuvers but maintain original profile (at alt 14000m) for longer range, you basically have this flying cylinder moving at Mach 3 or so at 50,000 feet when it is around 100km away from a target defense zone. Does this not make it look basically like a aircraft profile attempting to release a generic ASM?

It wouldn't the frontal RCS is much smaller than that of an aircraft plus the signature (lack of wings/tail) is much different.

In other words, the only way you can make Brahmos any different from the rest of the generic ASM delivery characteristics is if you have continuous low altitude and Mach 3 KE during final maneuvers, all of which would make the effective range of the Brahmos around 100Km unless the DRDO folks have done some changes to the missile aero-propulsive characteristics.

You cannot design low flying ashm missile with range of 300+ km simply because of limitation of over the horizon targeting , USN already tried it with TASM. To keep things simply lets say you fire sub sonic missile at target 200 km away, missiles flies for about 12 mins and gets to about 30 km from the pre-programmed target location and activates the seeker.

But the problem is a ship could have easily moved to any where within a 11 km radius where it originally was. Greatly increasing the chance of the ship moving away from seeker's range or some worst case scenario like tanker coasting where the target ships were. I know there is ways around through mid course guidance from a helicopter (used by a few AshM)

SM3 is no silver bullet. Had it been so, Uncle Sam would not be loosing sleep against chinese carrier killing missile. They foresee pearl harbour, albeit this time from China sans Kamikaze. There is hardly anything SM3 can do against sea skimming, supersonic multi Brahmos coming in from varying flight profiles, job would get done after all.

Best mechanism to deal with AshM is soft kill defenses, Israelies proved their effectiveness when they jammed 22 Styx missiles launched at their missile boats in Yom Kippur. True EW capabilities of USN is not fully published or understood, they have had Talos/MA-31 missile drone simulate Moskit for quite some time to test their missile defenses as well.

China and even Pakistan must have done some simulations to devise strategies to counter the Air/Land/Sea version.

Chinese have the Moskit which has some similarities to Yakhont/Brahmos, newer variant of Moskit has a range of 200 km and keep in Moskit is also capable High-low flight profile so it max range is greater than 300 km.

[manish.rastogi]

i guess if the range of the brahmos gets to about 100km in such situations....we should try to make its canisterised road mobile variants....jmt!!

[ashokpachori]

Best mechanism to deal with AshM is soft kill defenses, Israelies proved their effectiveness when they jammed 22 Styx missiles launched at their missile boats in Yom Kippur. True EW capabilities of USN is not fully published or understood, they have had Talos/MA-31 missile drone simulate Moskit for quite some time to test their missile defenses as well.


Soft kill and disabling technologies are still evolving. Yim kippur happened 4 decades ago, and where have Israelis reached on this? These are very complex technologies to master. Jamming devices are in vogue around, yet cruise missiles are kicking around. MA-31 that you are talking about is a Russian KA-31 imported (very few pcs) during clinton´s time, and US Navy was unable to shoot it down.

[ashokpachori]

I doubt anyone here would have done the mistake of painting the Indian Flag facing down.

If you mean by green Agni - why is it a mistake?

Its perfect. The flag is not upside down (green up, saffron down).

[SivaVijay]

^^^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Flag

[aditp]

^^^ The text on the missile has to be read top to bottom with the head tilted to the right. That way, the flag is painted correctly.

[shiv]

) if the missile has to maneuver and maintain the supersonic KE to be able to evade target defenses, then what range (surely less than 100km?) will it have?

Missile turns on the seeker gets lock on the target then dives to 5 -10 meters and performs the terminal maneuvers (zig-zag) at around 10-30 Kms from the target. How much the maneuvers affect the range comes down to what maneuver it is performing and how it increases the total duration of the flight.

True - and an interesting point. From the perspective of a ship, a fast flying sea skimming missile detected 30 km away ahead of the ship may appear to be heading in a direction from left to right ahead of the ship at some target way away to the right and ahead - suddenly the missile turns and heads parallel to the ship from a position ahead and to the right and seems to be heading at some other target on a course parallel to the ship but 10 km away. Then it turns again and heads towards you. At Mach 3 that missile will cover 10 km in 10 seconds. If you are in a fleet with other ships about - you cannot even be sure whom the missile is headed for. Imagine a salvo of two or three appearing from different directions and maneuvering into different positions - giving you 20 seconds warning.

[Kanson]

Flag Code of India:

when the Flag is displayed flat and horizontal on a wall, the saffron band should be upper most and when displayed vertically, the saffron band shall be on the right with reference to the Flag (i.e. left to the person facing the Flag);

Flag displayed vertically should be facing up. And nothing should be above the flag; no words markings, emblems.


>>The text on the missile has to be read top to bottom with the head tilted to the right. That way, the flag is painted correctly.

The question is how it is displayed. By that way, you can even hold the flag upside down and can be read tilting the head down.

[krishnan]

I am not sure whether all this applies to missiles

[dinesha]

^^^^^