LCA News and Discussions

[srai]

I don't think BR would be allowed private shoot of these trials.

Who said anything about "private shoot"

Since Singha is doing the "spotting" from his house (or office), he could set up a camera. That's what I was meaning.

[Kartik]

with due respects , I love the tejas program as much as the other guy.
I am alluding to is the way the agencies involved are able to skip deadlines and not face any music at all. Being a project manager myself , I know how one missed deadline in a multi agency project leads to delays both up and down the supply chain( the vendors who are creating inventories and the customer ( IAF in this case ) which is preparing facilities and resources in anticipation of the product)

I was not trying to be a pessimist , but I believe we should be critical and look back once in a while and take lessons. I was pointing out that the targets that were doled out at the beginning of the year ( and I listed them in my post) were far from met. Also , IOC was earlier understood to be a milestone where IAF would get the planes to play around with ( and the date set in stone at 27th dec). Yet quoting aviationweek (see link below ) the production aircrafts do not reach IAF till mid 2011. So ADA/DRDO/HAL are about ~3 aircrafts behind schedule.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... el=defense

Vivek - I do not understand what was "BULL" about the post . also, the billions that we gave the french or the russians have nothing to do with the project or the deadline.

Vikram, it was always known that the first squadron would be formed by May 2011. Where is the surprise in that? If YOU thought that IOC meant that one squadron or a flight of Tejas Mk1s were going to be handed over to the IAF, then its really YOUR misunderstanding, PS Subramanyam's fault.

Get this straight- the deadline for IOC certification was Dec 27 and now as per the report is mid-Jan; a 2 week delay that is unlikely to trigger any panic. That is the only news, the rest (IAF to get its aircraft in May 2011) is just you discovering what has been known for a while, just now.

Besides, there are 2 weeks left in the month and the NP-1 may fly. If it doesn't it won't be the first aircraft to miss such a deadline- the only thing I can assure you is that it will be for a good reason, not because people are lazy or not scared of censure. You can shout as much you want at someone, but parts will not get fabricated on their own, issues won't get resolved by losing your temper and worst still will be something done in a hurry could present a flight threat. The world over, these things happen. This isn't the most shocking piece of news in aerospace. If you think it is, please follow the F-35 program more carefully, or any civilian program.

[Karan M]

pray tell me how my humble review of ADA commitments counts as polemic. back in school , I learnt it was meant to be oneupmanship.

But where is your review Vikram W? Your comments were not humble and you had a lot, about how bad the developers are, and how we should all be critical - but I dont see any details about any of the questions I raised.

If you want to one up the developer then give us the details which you need to provide. Please tell us, where the 2 week delay of the IOC is confirmed, why it is critical, how is it the same as the production aircraft reaching the IAF, and what the specific milestones for IOC & system development were in 2010, and how the developer did not meet them, and finally, how PS is personally culpable.

Otherwise, yes, you are into polemics, but then thats not critical analysis

- are you sir, supporting my point here?

Not at all. I am pointing out that without information, it would be unwise to make value judgements in a definitive manner, mocking either the IAF or Dassault. Who knows about the amount of stuff that has been negotiated from both ends. Each time, there is some more data that comes out, re: cost & capability. Even so, compared to the LCA, the delay has been far more & worse, yet you did not pick it up.

ad hominem and under the belt. we can take my PM skills OT.

How is it an ad hominem. You directly point to PSubramanian, cast aspersions on his capability & integrity, and then mention yourself by referring to your PM skills as a comparison. I mean seriously, can you compare yourself to anyone in his position handling a project of such complexity & with specific domain requirements & assume he does not know what you know when what you said about multi agency programs was so basic.

Seriously, we are all legends in our own minds, and you may indeed be skillful, but sometimes it helps to not end up making such absolutely off the scale comparisons..

[Gurneesh]

Since, there are no airframe changes post LSP-4 , the LSP-6,7 and 8 airframes (atleast) should be on schedule. And they would have started installing the cockpit + the extra items (that 5 had over 4) only after they were completely satisfied with LSP-5 changes (I guess even ordering of components for later LSP's would have happened that). So, that delay is understandable ( It is better to ratify changes on a single plane rather than make the changes on 4 of them).

Regarding the IOC, two weeks is not going to make any difference as IMHO production of aircrafts would not depend on when the IOC is achieved. So, even if they achieve IOC in Feb they will keep making the planes to meet the delivery deadline (until some serious problems are found in the design which looks highly unlikely).

So, everybody should just chill and hope that there is a LCA flyby (atleast) on 26 Jan Parade .

By the way does anybody have pics of the LSP-5 cockpit.

[putnanja]

A cursory look at various aircraft programs, civil and military, will show that even the best of organizations have had multi-year delays and slippages in meeting IOC and FOC. For e.g. in the recent past, Airbus A380 program was delayed by two years, and the current Boeing 787 is delayed by 3 years, and may be delayed even more. And these are companies which have been designing and building planes for 40 years or more. Similarly, the F35 is behind schedule, the Osprey is still not fully certified and in production, the EF has been delayed for a few years etc.

To compare being a program manager in an IT industry to an aircraft program as complex as LCA by ADA is laughable! Someone earlier compared building oil refineries by Reliance to the LCA program. Wonder what the future brings us???

[Vivek K]

Vivek - I do not understand what was "BULL" about the post . also, the billions that we gave the french or the russians have nothing to do with the project or the deadline.

Really!! My friend the Russians used the classic - get the order cheap, get the customer committed and then pile on change order after change order to fleece every last cent that you can. And add to that the delay of several years. That does not seem to bother you!!

so the IOC has been postponed by a couple of weeks ...

And the couple of weeks is so painful for you?

P.S. Subramaniam pulled another fast one on the taxpayer and IAF.

And where did this beauty come from? Care to enlighten us?

Also, remember , based on the schedule that was given in January this year ( let this be an end of year report card ) they were supposed to deliver LSP 5 in July , LSP 6 within a week of that ,...
arz kiya hai --- tarikh pe tarikh judge sahib, tarikh pe tarikh

I hope you did not write the dialogues for the movie. Boss, look up - LSP 5 is flying. NP-1 is to fly shortly. So where is the issue?

I hope you can spot the bull now!

[shiv]

Does anyone know the difference/s between the PVs and the LSPs?

[Amit J]

^^

It is Prototype Vehicle and Limited Series Production, but you arent looking for an answer


I have a doubt since my lack of knowledge of aerodynamics. The LSP -6 was supposed to be used / made to increase the Angle of Attack. Does this involve air frame changes ?, if not how can the Angle of Attack limitations be changed if the air frame isnt modified

[Kakarat]

ADA confirms Tejas LSP-3 jettisoned a 1200-litre drop tank over ATR - Tarmak007

[shiv]

ADA confirms Tejas LSP-3 jettisoned a 1200-litre drop tank over ATR - Tarmak007

Brilliant info here:

To ensure safety of flight, clean separation of the tank with adequate clearances from the mother aircraft or neighboring stores need to be established from flight test. This extremely safety critical flight test requires thorough planning and preparation supported by theoretical analysis and a level of verification of the predictions through ground tests on specialized test rigs set up for this purpose.

The theoretical predictions were further verified through what is called ‘Pit drop tests’ conducted on a test specimen using specially designed test rig with part of the aircraft system and high speed photography system integrated with it. The test cases covered a member of conditions such as empty, partial and full drop tanks as well as different Ejector Release Unit (ERU) settings.

The flight test were planned by the National Flight Test centre (NFTC), ADA at certain representative critical release condition. Considering the safety critical nature of this test, a safety review was conducted at NFTC to ensure all foreseeable safety issues were taken care of before embarking on this important test. To capture the flight data, a dedicated and specialized Airborne Separation Video System (ASVS) is installed on the Test aircraft. The system comprised of very high speed digital cameras installed in a specially designed camera pod and linked to a Multi System Controller (MSC) installed onboard the aircraft. The MSC gets a pulse from trigger to jettison the tank where upon the cameras are switched on in a pre-determined sequence to capture this critical event.

[Pratyush]

^^^Hmmm...

Things are shaping up nicely for the Tejas programme. One question I have is how many serving IAF pilots have flown the Aricraft till now?

[Rahul M]

^^^
http://www.lca-tejas.org/tejasteam.html

the thing that needs to be noted is that for the last 5 years pilots are in the programme for an extended period as against during 2001-2002 when IAF forced the pilots to come back after an year or two. the problems were so acute that at one time ALL the TPs who had flying experience left the programme simultaneously leaving WingCo Tarun Banerjee was the most experienced TP of the batch with no flying experience on the LCA !! needless to say it created major headache for the project.

this change in procedure coincides with the change in IAF's attitude towards the programme from circa 2006 onwards.

[Pratyush]

Rahul,

Thanks for the link.

[vina]

Does anyone know the difference/s between the PVs and the LSPs?

Oh, for the purpose of the ongoing discussion, it is easy. If the tests in Chitradurga were done by the PV2 , then it absolutely had to do the range finding by a laser and was flying with a LDP , even if it was a dumb bomb - CCIP release (something like what the Mig 27 and Jaguars do).. Why , because the radars are there only in the later LSPs and the PVs do not have radar! So obviously the PV cannot use the radar for the ranging that the LSPs possibly could do .. Ah.. but that is a different set of tests I suppose, to get the radar for ranging , GMTI, SAR, ISAR kind of PGM and dumb bomb strikes, which I think will come at FOC when the radar is fully integrated and all modes tested out on the Tejas (it obivously has been done already on other platforms if it is a 2032 or a 2032 based derivative)

[Asit P]

Vikram jee, may be you could have a look at the timelines of A 380, Tata Nano, F 22 and scores of other military and civilian projects before jumping to a conclusion, and before using such harsh words against LCA.

[Vikram W]

pray tell me how my humble review of ADA commitments counts as polemic. back in school , I learnt it was meant to be oneupmanship.
But where is your review Vikram W?

Karan - Still OT . please check inbox.

[Karan M]

Asking you for answers, for facts to support your claims is OT? I rest my case as to the difference between critical thinking and having rhetorical polemic.

And you cannot send me any PM, as only admins can do that.

[Rahul M]

vikram, please stop digging a hole for yourself.

[shiv]

The reports that have appeared in the lat few days - and I am quoting from memory have come up with the following data points

1) The flight time to Chitradurga is 12 minutes
2) The LCA will fly for 45 minutes

Chitradurga is a little less than 200 km away as the crow flies. 12 minutes to 200 km is 1000 kmph. 45 minutes at 1000 kmph is 750 km. That translates to a radius of 300 km plus loiter time. But this is probably at relatively low altitude, I do not expect that the Tejas is made to climb to 20,000 feet only to descend to bomb dropping level 200 km away.

[Pratyush]

Shiv Ji,

Could it be that 45 minutes is the flight time taken to get to the target. As I recall that the Combat radius of Tejas beeng described in the past as 800 odd kms (IIRC onlee...). The fery range has been described as 2100 Kms in the past (Again IIRC...)

This 45 minutes flight time seems to a result of a misquote by the Official concerned or DDM twisting the statement of the official.

As 300 Kms radious makes it one seriously short legged bird. On the same line as the Mig 21.

The only way to find out the truth would be to dig the Tejas flight logs and find out the longest test flight of the aircraft and the flight profile for that particular flight.

[shiv]

Shiv Ji,

Could it be that 45 minutes is the flight time taken to get to the target. As I recall that the Combat radius of Tejas beeng described in the past as 800 odd kms (IIRC onlee...). The fery range has been described as 2100 Kms in the past (Again IIRC...)

This 45 minutes flight time seems to a result of a misquote by the Official concerned or DDM twisting the statement of the official.

As 300 Kms radious makes it one seriously short legged bird. On the same line as the Mig 21.

The only way to find out the truth would be to dig the Tejas flight logs and find out the longest test flight of the aircraft and the flight profile for that particular flight.

We are talking about a bird that is full of telemetry equipment placed in oddball areas.

[Singha]

imho the only ones getting panties into a knot seem to be BR based on one line in that report. sometimes we go into hyper analytical chankan mode . someone should just ask the nearest chaiwalla what is the IOC tejas combat radius on 100% internal fuel .... in a lo-hi-lo a2a profile and lo-lo-lo a2g profile.

[SriSri]

Tejas LSP-3 Jettisoned 1200-litre Drop Tank at Chitradurga ATR

[RKumar]

Here is the article I have mentioned .. regarding 2.30 (sorry .. i typed 2.5 wanted to say 2 and half hours) hrs. It is from 8th dec, 2010.

[krishnan]

1872 test flights?

d 1452 Test Flights successfully.(18-Oct-10).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-173, PV3-234,LSP1-60,LSP2-160,PV5-17, LSP3-16,LSP4-12)

so more than 400 test flights in 2 months

[vina]

ADA confirms Tejas LSP-3 jettisoned a 1200-litre drop tank over ATR - Tarmak007

Hmm. Nice photo released by DRDO at Tarmak007's site. The photo is very revealing. If you look carefully, you can see the other drop tank still on the wing! So, this drop tank test was of a single tank only and not both tanks released at the same time!

What this means is that the FCS /FBW system of the Tejas has matured to the point where they are absolutely confident of being able to fly around with large asymmetrical loads like having just one drop tank jettisoned and being able to handle stuff like able to handle the complexities and problems of an asymmetrical drop/release of a heavy store. With this level of IOC preparedness, getting full FOC is just doing qualifications and proving with the full range of weapons. The basics are all there as of now and the big "problems" have been licked/overcome.

Note .. what they seem to have been jettisoned was a wing tank definitely, though it is quite possible that there was a center line tank carried and dropped as well, but then our spotter Singha would have seen the plane carrying three tanks, and I dont think anyone has seen the Tejas fly with a single centerline tank yet, it has always been two wing tanks. Yes.. what the IAF is serious about getting fast is more the strike version of the Tejas I think (isn't that the M2K's strike config.. two wing tanks and the centerline pylon for heavy stores, vs the airdefence config of a large center tank and missiles in the wing pylons?)

[arya]

wah re DDM

Mohtarmaa Tejash First flew 9 yrs ago [2001] not seven yrs and has completed almost 1500 test flight.

[shiv]

wah re DDM

Mohtarmaa Tejash First flew 9 yrs ago [2001] not seven yrs and has completed almost 1500 test flight.

The following is a post I made on 7th December
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 05#p990505

LCA Tejas has made 1500 flights.

Here is a photo commemorating that flight. The message along with the photo:

Today Tejas did its 1500th flight.
The aircraft (PV-2) was flown by Gp. Capt. Suneet Krishna from Goa to Bangalore

Click on image..and check what's on da wingg

[Singha]

note the combat radius of 510km presumably on internal fuel (+some theoritical payload?) . iirc the F-16 (block10-15) had a radius of 750km.
does anyone know the figure for Mirage2000-5? most of the M2K pages on web give the radius including two or three drop tanks for H&D reasons.

with two wing drop tanks and 6 AAMs, the radius should be around 700km which is hugely superior to the Mig21 era. we no longer need to "hug" the enemy by basing fighters in places like ambala or jaisalmer or nalia/bhuj or Thoise to provide aircover at the risk of a easy counterstrike on such bases..instead they can disappear safely into the interior.

[Dileep]

What this means is that the FCS /FBW system of the Tejas has matured to the point where they are absolutely confident of being able to fly around with large asymmetrical loads like having just one drop tank jettisoned and being able to handle stuff like able to handle the complexities and problems of an asymmetrical drop/release of a heavy store.

This is one of the things 'simulated to death' (and bragged about) in the mid nineties.

[shiv]

note the combat radius of 510km presumably on internal fuel (+some theoritical payload?) . iirc the F-16 (block10-15) had a radius of 750km.
does anyone know the figure for Mirage2000-5? most of the M2K pages on web give the radius including two or three drop tanks for H&D reasons.

with two wing drop tanks and 6 AAMs, the radius should be around 700km which is hugely superior to the Mig21 era. we no longer need to "hug" the enemy by basing fighters in places like ambala or jaisalmer or nalia/bhuj or Thoise to provide aircover at the risk of a easy counterstrike on such bases..instead they can disappear safely into the interior.

GD here is a quote about the development of the F-16 from a link in the "design your fighter" thread
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article4.html

Recognizing that the YF-16 pilot would use externally-carried fuel on the outbound trip to the combat zone and then return on the internal fuel, the design team allocated internal fuel volume accordingly, reducing the airframe size and shaving 1470 pounds off the empty weight and reducing the loaded weight by 3300 pounds. By doing this, the turning rate could be increased by ten percent and acceleration by 30 percent.

The LCA's range will get better as time passes - when they shave off weight. After all the first MiG 21s we bought had a radius of action of 200 km and we fought a two front war with them.

[vavinash]

Why do Wikipedia and air-force-technology list Tejas range as 3000 km??

http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... specs.html

[sunilpatel]

Why do Wikipedia and air-force-technology list Tejas range as 3000 km??

http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... specs.html

this link shows the maiden flight on April, 2007..

[Sid]

Why do Wikipedia and air-force-technology list Tejas range as 3000 km??

http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... specs.html

this link shows the maiden flight on April, 2007..

That's the date for first LSP flight, i.e. production aircraft which will actually see the day in service.

Maybe airforce-technology does not count the prototype aircraft, just like training period is not counted in job experience

Also, 3000km might be LCA's max range with three drop-tanks or in flight refueling.

[disha]

The following is a post I made on 7th December
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 05#p990505

Today Tejas did its 1500th flight.
The aircraft (PV-2) was flown by Gp. Capt. Suneet Krishna from Goa to Bangalore

Click on image..and check what's on da wingg

Is that Matra Magic on the wing? Successful Lakshya testing?

[disha]

Here is the article I have mentioned .. regarding 2.30 (sorry .. i typed 2.5 wanted to say 2 and half hours) hrs. It is from 8th dec, 2010.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fV0WCDBPfsk/T ... 768033.jpg

Mohtarma chindits loves to put an article after much record delays and with lots of cost overruns!

[vavinash]

The figures are all wrong. MTOW is 13500kg. I doubt the combat radius is less than 600km.

[shiv]

Is that Matra Magic on the wing? Successful Lakshya testing?

looks like R-73 live round

[Rahul M]

Here is the article I have mentioned .. regarding 2.30 (sorry .. i typed 2.5 wanted to say 2 and half hours) hrs. It is from 8th dec, 2010.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fV0WCDBPfsk/T ... 768033.jpg

moheterma is mathematically challenged ?

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>

with two wing drop tanks and 6 AAMs, the radius should be around 700km which is hugely superior to the Mig21 era. we no longer need to "hug" the enemy by basing fighters in places like ambala or jaisalmer or nalia/bhuj or Thoise to provide aircover at the risk of a easy counterstrike on such bases..instead they can disappear safely into the interior.

The reason for basing fighters in these locations or, better still, the reason for having these bases, has more to do with operational requirement.

Jaisalmer or Pathankot or Suratgarh are required because of proximity of lot of VA/VP to the IB and to provide air-cover to ground forces during wartime. The airbase is just one VA. Even if LCA has good range - the fact of the matter is that it will need to fly to these forward areas for a CAP to keep PAF off the back of IA. Without Pathankot or Ambala or Udhampur, how do you provide cover to Indian thrust in Sialkot sector? PAF bases are close to the border and we need to ensure that the dash time in case of emergency is as a small as possible.

Thoise or Nalia or Bhuj have their own strategic importance. BTW, AFAIK, IA does not base fighters in Thoise. That is for Leh.