China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2016 18:04

Liu wrote:
I do think in 10 years ,There would be Only 2 real racers （Usa and china） on The race of engine ,because only The two coutries can afford The lastest engine~r&d,The most luxery game of money.

Liu-ji, you will not be here in 10 years from now to be answerable for this boast. You seem to forget that the CFM 56 your compatriots copied is itself a product of an international consortium or European and US companies. Europe is no slouch when it comes to engines - with Snecma and RR and a host of other small concerns making subcomponents like blisks and engines for UAVs.

These companies are not going to fold up. They may be bought by China. But then again who knows, India may buy a few of them under the same circumstances.Ultimately survival of jet engine companies depends on civilian orders and those who follow developments in civilian engines have been seeing an almost yearly improvement in efficiency, emission and fuel consumption. China is exactly zero in this field. You can ask your pilots to die in J-10s and hide the stats. Anyone can boast saying "We can do this and we can do that" But aircraft engines do not arise from boasts of civil engineering or wall & street making companies. I need to see flying engines and real reports of reliability. In fact I do hope China achieves some success because it means that India won't be far behind. If China keeps failing, then it only shows how difficult the path is.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 08 Sep 2016 18:56

chola wrote:
I have no idea what point you are trying to say with the Jeep example. Chiniland is Jeep's largest market outside the US which is why GAC wanted more.

Chola sir, the point I am trying to make is that, after I read so much about China, visited China, number crunching etc, finally I agreed with the collective wisdom of this forum that China is all the glitter that is not gold. How much ever you dismiss Psychology, wisdom comes from gut feeling, not numbers.

I have seen so many people who have succeeded in businesses who had the gut feeling that the numbers are not giving the correct picture inspite of using completely statistically most appropriate model for predicting the results.

That's what makes them different to the other 95% of the failed business men who rely solely on numbers.

My gut feeling is that China has been able to deceive the wallstreeters by show off. It's like building a beautiful home without foundation.

Their only expertise is in shamelessly stealing, copying, and when somebody is desperately in need of your support, cold bloodedly backstabbing like in the case of Jeep.

It's summarized in Telugu by Yogi Vemana

అల్పుడెపుడు బల్కు నాడంబరముగాను
సజ్జనుండు బల్కు చల్లగాను
కంచు మ్రోగునట్లు కనకంబు మ్రోగునా
విశ్వదాభిరామ వినుర వేమ

Which means, Chinese show numbers that glitter like Gold, but actually that's Bronze.

Like Salt and Camphor look like same, only when you taste, you can find the difference.

Yogi Vemana perfectly studied the Chinese.

ఉప్పు కప్పురంబు వొక్కపోలికనుండు
జూడజూడ రుచులజాడవేరు
పురుషులందుపుణ్యపురుషులు వేరయా
విశ్వదాభిరామ వినుర వేమ

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 09 Sep 2016 01:40

kiran u just said what I have been suspecting for long about china . Time will tell . Recently I have been taking my relative,s young kids and showing them wall street and manhattan and telling them all that glitter is not gold.

I will tell u something else I think the foundation of this country(US) and culture is very shaky and this country will collapse in the future.
There is too much running after material wealth and pleasures of all kinds, no respect for elders, parents, no respect for religion, empty churches. And also no respect for other cultures far older and I would say far superior to this one. Not wanting to learn anything from others. Comments like this from a researcher "what research in europe , asia this is all the research( meaning in US) there is. " Arrogance and ignorance of it,s population. And the list goes on. Indian culture is far superior and tolerant. India has survived more than a millenium of attacks and occupation and is rising again like a phoenix , is because the foundation of the culture that our ancestors built for us is very strong unlike the western culture . This is a culture of lies and hypocracy.As someone recently said united states of hypocracy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Sep 2016 02:18

Col Ajit Singh Binder posted on Twitter a report that China is equipping ground forces with their Apache clone helicopters for anti-tank and air to air roles.
Could be related to Indian deployment of tanks near LAC.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Sep 2016 09:16

These forces will come head on with the Vikas regiments in Eastern Ladakh. The ALGs in AP and Ladakh will be prime targets for the PLA special forces. Challenge for Indian SF is other than major HELO base in Depsang which was in news 8 yrs ago we do not know of any major airbases within 100Km range of LAC.

Strategypage.... TFIFW

Special Operations: Out Of Thin Air In China

September 8, 2016: Every year since 2010 China has been sending one or more battalions of paratroopers to Tibet so they can conduct one or more combat parachute drops. The first of these occurred in 2010 with a battalion landing in an open area of the Tibet plateau. This was significant because the average altitude on this vast plateau is 4000 meters (14,000 feet). This means parachutists have to jump from a higher altitude on account of the thinner air and the longer time it takes for the parachute to open. The reduced air pressure also causes altitude sickness for many troops, especially after something as strenuous as a parachute jump, and the frantic activity following the landing. The Chinese Army wanted to find out how well prepared it is to deal with these problems. Since that first drop the Chinese Army has adapted.

For the 2010 exercise parachute troops went through altitude acclimatization training beforehand, as the Chinese already know what happens when you send military units straight to the high plateau. This became painfully obvious 2008 when there was an uprising in Tibet. Many of the troops sent in soon fell ill from altitude sickness. The acclimatization training detects those troops who would get ill quickly, and the worst of these are kept closer to sea level.

The Chinese airborne units were not given all this special training just to reinforce Tibet. The Chinese point that most of their southern border area are covered with mountains and hills, averaging 3,000 meters (9,300 feet) in height. Training in Tibet gets the paratroopers ready to operate in all these areas.

The paratroopers involved in all this belong to the Chinese 15th Airborne Corps which has been around since the early 1990s and now consists of three airborne divisions and an aviation brigade. This is the primary airborne infantry force in the Chinese military and the primary rapid reaction force as well. China has enough air transports (Il-76s, Yu-8s, Yu-7s) to move one of the 11,000 man airborne divisions to anywhere in China within 24 hours. Moving a division anywhere by air on such short notice was first done in 2008 when one division was sent to Sichuan province, to assist in earthquake relief. The first large scale movement by air took place in 1988 when a division was moved to Tibet. Many of these early movements were experimental. A lot of mistakes were made but they were fixed and by 2010 battalions and brigades could be moved reliably by air on a regular basis. Since 2006 as the air force acquired more, and larger, transports so that more troops, as well as vehicles (some armored) could quickly be delivered by air.

Since 2009 the 15th Airborne Corps has been receiving more helicopters and practicing tactical movements via helicopter for units as large as brigades. These exercises are becoming more frequent, as more of the 15th Airborne Corps nine paratroops brigades are trained to undertake these helicopter movements and assaults. These operations would be a major feature of an attempt to take Taiwan by force or quickly reinforcing remote Tibet in case there were a local rebellion. Another threat is the newly created Indian Mountain Corps that is based on the border and could cross the border unexpectedly in the 2020s, when this new Indian units reaches full strength of 80,000 troops.

The 15th Airborne Corps also trains a growing percentage of its paratroopers to carry out one or more specialized jumps (like the ones in the thin air of Tibet). Currently about 40 percent of the 30,000 Chinese paratroopers have acquired specialized skills.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Sep 2016 09:22

Another point to note is that after mountain corps comes into being, India will probably be the only country with a offensive posture against China.

No other country on PRC's rim has that capability.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 09 Sep 2016 18:14

Paul wrote:Another point to note is that after mountain corps comes into being, India will probably be the only country with a offensive posture against China.

No other country on PRC's rim has that capability.

Militarily,china might be in a defensive position in along sino~indo boundary,because tibet is not its focus Until taiwan/southchinasea issues are solved.

However,Economily,india is in a defensive positon even in india domestic market ,flooded by made~in~china.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Sep 2016 19:33

Good to see you agree with me. Good luck solving Taiwan/SCS.

We are not even starting to discuss Vietnam let alone Japan, crossing first Island chain etc. and you think you will take on India for CPEC.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2016 19:41

Liu wrote:
However,Economily,india is in a defensive positon even in india domestic market ,flooded by made~in~china.

That is a poor excuse. Compared with all the nations China is pissing off - it is China that is weak economically. That aside you can have suicidal nations that don't care about economics. China used its syphilitic whore Pakistan to oppose India. That tactic is failing and all India's power is gradually going to be used to face China. Like I said - bluster and boasting comes easy. I can do it too. Everyone can boast and say mine is thicker, longer or stiffer

When we put a squeeze on Pakistan they will look to China for help. And when China and Pakistan get close, Pakistanis will want Chinese to respect Islam and their Uighur brothers. So in this military thread please stick to military developments and stop talking economics and geopolitics. There are other threads for that

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Sep 2016 19:42

China equips ground forces with new attack choppers, but India ‘needn’t worry’

China’s military has equipped all of its ground forces with advanced WZ-10 combat helicopters that can be used to target battle tanks and air-to-air combat missions, a strategic move which could have implications for India.
Several WZ-10s have been delivered to an aviation brigade of the PLA’s 13th Group Army under the Western Theatre Command, the People’s Liberation Army’s TV news channel reported.
This means that all of the army’s aviation units now have this advanced attack helicopter, state-run China Daily reported.
Senior Colonel Xu Guolin, deputy chief of the PLA Army’s aviation equipment bureau, told the news channel that all of the group armies will have at least one aviation brigade or regiment.
The helicopter was designed primarily for anti-tank missions, but now has a secondary air-to-air combat capability.
Wu Peixin, an aviation analyst in Beijing, said the PLA Army now has a strong force of dedicated combat helicopters thanks to the service of the WZ-10 and WZ-19, another attack helicopter that is less powerful than the WZ-10.
“The army now needs more medium-lift, multipurpose helicopters such as the US Army’s Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk,” he said.
“This helicopter is capable of performing both combat operations and transport tasks.”
Gao Zhuo, a military observer in Shanghai, said the PLA Army needs at least 3,000 helicopters, especially heavy-lift transport types and multi-purpose models.
Meanwhile, the Chinese military has discounted media reports that China’s stealth fighter J-20, currently undergoing trials, will be deployed in Tibet along the India-China border.
Reacting to reports that J-20 spotted at the Daocheng Yading Airport in Tibet, an article in the PLA website said that J-20 will be put into service soon but the ‘China-India border is apparently not the ideal place for its deployment’.
“In addition, the world’s highest airport there does not have a complete set of supporting facilities and such shortage will impede the function of J-20,” it said.
“J-20 will not be deployed in Daocheng Yading airport as the airport is too close to the border, and it is vulnerable to India’s first wave hit. If India is to deploy BrahMos missile on the China-India border, then the Daocheng Yading airport will likely to become its target,” it said.
“Experts pointed out that for India, China is undoubtedly its largest opponent and therefore every move of the Chinese military will touch the nerve of Indian media,” it said.
“India is not yet the biggest threat for China and though confrontation events along the border would occur from time to time, the overall situation is rather stable,” it said.
“In this way, China does not put too much emphasis and focus targeting India. Chinese equipment deployment and drills along the border are mostly confirmatory, mainly to gain experience, improve high-altitude combat capability, and form deterrent ability,” it said.

I would not put too much value on highlighted portion

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 09 Sep 2016 20:43

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:
However,Economily,india is in a defensive positon even in india domestic market ,flooded by made~in~china.
That is a poor excuse. Compared with all the nations China is pissing off - it is China that is weak economically. That aside you can have suicidal nations that don't care about economics. China used its syphilitic whore Pakistan to oppose India. That tactic is failing and all India's power is gradually going to be used to face China. Like I said - bluster and boasting comes easy. I can do it too. Everyone can boast and say mine is thicker, longer or stiffer

When we put a squeeze on Pakistan they will look to China for help. And when China and Pakistan get close, Pakistanis will want Chinese to respect Islam and their Uighur brothers. So in this military thread please stick to military developments and stop talking economics and geopolitics. There are other threads for that

well, even militarily, CHina is tactically defensive ,but strategcially offensive to India.

otherwise, why so few Chinese are worries about india's invasion into China while so many indians are worried about China's invastion into India?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 09 Sep 2016 22:01

Chinese forces are the defensive against russia in north and US Navy in Indo-china sea and east china sea. No one other than unkil is on all offensive posture anywhere.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2016 22:11

Liu wrote: otherwise, why so few Chinese are worries about india's invasion into China while so many indians are worried about China's invastion into India?

Indians are constantly worried about a Chinese invasion because Indians admit the truth - India received a kick up her butt from China in 1962 , lost territory and remained weak fighting with a nation who served as American and Chinese prostitute. The humiliating defeat was because of piss poor leadership and that is not a mistake that Indians want to see repeated. Indians are reminding their leaders (who we elect) that they must not forget the stupidity of 1962.

But this thread is about the China military and I have seen time and again that Chinese who feel shamed by any discussion will invariably change the topic to India. You are also doing that

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 10 Sep 2016 05:01

Bheeshma wrote:Chinese forces are the defensive against russia in north and US Navy in Indo-china sea and east china sea. No one other than unkil is on all offensive posture anywhere.

You are wrong.
Durinf 1991-2008,Usa was offensive all over The earth.

After 2008,usa has beeb retreating everywhere to save Money for saving The ass of its crappy economy.
Why is The world in chaos now?It is because Usa is retreating everywhere while Eu/russia/china and some local mid~size powers are taking over The power vacuum. The new power balance is still being formed.
Even in south china sea ,Usa and its little bothers are in defensive position against china's enlarging man~madeslands.

Chinese are confident that Nobody except allens can invade china's native land. Nowdays.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 07:39

Liu wrote:
Chinese are confident that Nobody except allens can invade china's native land. Nowdays.

This is what Americans were saying from WW2 to Y2K. How China handles Uighurs and Pakistanis will be interesting to watch, and even more interesting to meddle with.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 Sep 2016 08:35

Shiv,

The Chinese are actually strategically inept. They think they can be embroiled in conflict w/ their neighbors while challenging the US. It's just not going to happen. You gettin' this Liu?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 10 Sep 2016 08:38

Here is some more propaganda from white, capitalist roaders bent on further humiliating the glorious revolution of the great Han. Don't bother countering it Liu, unless you can providing facts.

http://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-milita ... 14104.html

Of course the other half of the Chinese military is copies of Russian hardware.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Sep 2016 12:09

If PRC takes on India for a 2-3 week short conflict (minimum), it will take them 3-4 yrs if not more to replenish their armaments CMs, Artillery, Aircraft, Personnel etc.

This will provide a crucial window for it's adverseries in East/SE Asia...or vice versa.

Like it or not PRC will soon be facing a 2 front scenario as well. Has it given a thought on working this out?

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 13:55

Paul wrote:If PRC takes on India for a 2-3 week short conflict (minimum), it will take them 3-4 yrs if not more to replenish their armaments CMs, Artillery, Aircraft, Personnel etc.

This will provide a crucial window for it's adverseries in East/SE Asia...or vice versa.

Like it or not PRC will soon be facing a 2 front scenario as well. Has it given a thought on working this out?

Why? What is happening? Do we miss something here?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Sep 2016 14:03

What is happening is I seem to have hit a soft spot here.

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 14:05

sanjaykumar wrote:Here is some more propaganda from white, capitalist roaders bent on further humiliating the glorious revolution of the great Han. Don't bother countering it Liu, unless you can providing facts.

http://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-milita ... 14104.html

Of course the other half of the Chinese military is copies of Russian hardware.

Don't need to buy everything from others? Sounds good to me. Perhaps China is not as rich as proud India who just keeps buying all the good stuff. Good for you guys.

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 14:09

Paul wrote:What is happening is I seem to have hit a soft spot here.

You did it all by yourself. Impressive!

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Sep 2016 14:22

Is that the best you can write in response to my post?

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 14:43

Paul wrote:Is that the best you can write in response to my post?

Why would you think that? I thought it was quite fitting. I apologize if I let you down.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 16:14

From 1990 to 2006 China was a huge arms importer.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 16:29

Before I start I must post my disclaimer in case someone gets upset enough to start lecturing me

Do not underestimate China
China is a 1 trillion dollar economy
China kicked Indian butt in 1962 and will do so again with one hand tied up
China is now the second superpower, set to overtake the US
China has caught up with the US is stealth technology
China is rapidly closing the gap in engine technology
China has megaton bombs compared with our fizzles
Only stupid people will disagree with all this

China could import no arms at all for decades after 1960, but now China is becoming an exporter after having been the world's biggest importer for about 15 years

Now the thing is the major arms exporters are now USA, Russia, Europe and China. China is breaking into areas where the USA, Russia and Europe used to lead.

India is the biggest importer -- but China does not get even one Pakistani Rupee for arms from India - we are pretty much subsidizing a US/European arms industry. As Chinese exports increase, USA and Europe will look to India to keep their arms industries afloat, and quality wise those imported arms are on average 2 generations ahead of China.

And maybe in a decade Indian imports will reduce and USA/Europe may want to export to China. But till then we can expect to have spent our money to stay qualitatively ahead of China while we build up local skills

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 16:46

http://thediplomat.com/2015/05/why-chin ... gs-behind/

Diesel-electric subs are usually significantly stealthier than their nuclear counterparts, mostly due to diesel engines that are specifically designed to minimize vibration and noise in order to evade sonar detection. For example, both the Song– and Yuan-class attack submarines are equipped with German-made state-of-the-art diesel engines — the 396 SE84 series — designed by MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH of Friedrichshafen, Germany. China still imports crucial components while it boasts of total indigenous manufacture

“They are the world’s leading submarine diesel engines,” according to an experienced submarine engineer. Each Song– and Yuan-class vessel is equipped with three such engines, which have been built under license by Chinese defense contractors since 1986. The Yuan-class is also said to have incorporated quieting technology from Russian-designed subs and to be equipped with Stirling air-independent propulsion technology.

“They want the ability to be quiet and not to have to surface to charge the batteries. They have achieved that with a Stirling capability in the Yuan class. But technology is always moving ahead. And in AIP, even if you’ve mastered it, is a highly complex system,” Erickson explained.

China has also been experimenting with lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries, power sources that offer much higher energy density and longer dive times. “Chinese researchers clearly see Li-Ion batteries as the wave of the future for conventional submarine propulsion. They’re not there yet, but they are determined to get there,” Erickson noted. Erickson said China was discussing putting Li-Ion batteries “on a new generation of conventional subs sometime between now and 2020, but there is no indicator as yet of the type of submarine that might be.”

Chinese submarine technology is still generally considered to be a generation behind the West. For example, the much talked about new Type 095 nuclear-attack submarine SSN will, in all likelihood, be more on par with 1980s NATO nuclear-powered fast-attack submarines (i.e. roughly three decades behind current Western sub technology), rather than with the new U.S. Virginia-class vessels.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 10 Sep 2016 19:35

shiv wrote:

China could import no arms at all for decades after 1960, but now
India is the biggest importer -- but China does not get even one Pakistani Rupee for arms from India - we are pretty much subsidizing a US/European arms industry. As Chinese exports increase, USA and Europe will look to India to keep their arms industries afloat, and quality wise those imported arms are on average 2 generations ahead of China.

Are you sure 'quality wise those imported arms are on average 2 generations ahead of China.'?

That means j10=mg19/f86,j20=mg21/f4,t99=t54/m48?

What a Good wish!
May you have Good luck!

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 20:34

shiv wrote:Before I start I must post my disclaimer in case someone gets upset enough to start lecturing me

Do not underestimate China
China is a 1 trillion dollar economy
China kicked Indian butt in 1962 and will do so again with one hand tied up
China is now the second superpower, set to overtake the US
China has caught up with the US is stealth technology
China is rapidly closing the gap in engine technology
China has megaton bombs compared with our fizzles
Only stupid people will disagree with all this
China could import no arms at all for decades after 1960, but now China is becoming an exporter after having been the world's biggest importer for about 15 years

Now the thing is the major arms exporters are now USA, Russia, Europe and China. China is breaking into areas where the USA, Russia and Europe used to lead.

India is the biggest importer -- but China does not get even one Pakistani Rupee for arms from India - we are pretty much subsidizing a US/European arms industry. As Chinese exports increase, USA and Europe will look to India to keep their arms industries afloat, and quality wise those imported arms are on average 2 generations ahead of China.

And maybe in a decade Indian imports will reduce and USA/Europe may want to export to China. But till then we can expect to have spent our money to stay qualitatively ahead of China while we build up local skills

That's a gem of wisdom and knowledge. India stays two generations ahead just by importing alone, from US/Europe no less. No wonder India is on the cusp of superpowerdom. Honorary Super Power I should say?
Building up local skills at the same time? So smart. You guys win hands down. Not even a chance to catch up with you guys. Himalaya, save us please.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 20:37

Liu wrote: Are you sure 'quality wise those imported arms are on average 2 generations ahead of China.'?

That means j10=mg19/f86,j20=mg21/f4,t99=t54/m48?

What a Good wish!
May you have Good luck!

You said it yourself not me. Engines and avionics are what set apart 2 gen from 4 gen. China has no 5 gen - only black coloured claims.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Sep 2016 20:38

shiv wrote:Before I start I must post my disclaimer in case someone gets upset enough to start lecturing me

Do not underestimate China
China is a 1 trillion dollar economy
China kicked Indian butt in 1962 and will do so again with one hand tied up
China is now the second superpower, set to overtake the US
China has caught up with the US is stealth technology
China is rapidly closing the gap in engine technology
China has megaton bombs compared with our fizzles
Only stupid people will disagree with all this
China could import no arms at all for decades after 1960, but now China is becoming an exporter after having been the world's biggest importer for about 15 years

Now the thing is the major arms exporters are now USA, Russia, Europe and China. China is breaking into areas where the USA, Russia and Europe used to lead.

India is the biggest importer -- but China does not get even one Pakistani Rupee for arms from India - we are pretty much subsidizing a US/European arms industry. As Chinese exports increase, USA and Europe will look to India to keep their arms industries afloat, and quality wise those imported arms are on average 2 generations ahead of China.

And maybe in a decade Indian imports will reduce and USA/Europe may want to export to China. But till then we can expect to have spent our money to stay qualitatively ahead of China while we build up local skills

Dont agree with that assumption... a strong economy and a relatively well equipped military can hold a much powerful adversary at bay .. Russia has just a fraction of America s military and economic might .. India is not a fraction but soon will be more than half of Chinas economy inside a decade with a military power to match .. it certainly can match and prevent any extrovert Chinese adventures

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 20:40

Waylan wrote: Honorary Super Power I should say?

You can say what you like. It's called freedom of expression. Available to Indians and in America where you live, judging from your American style English. But not available for Chinese in China. They have to toe the party line.

Chincom party say "We da best"
Chinaman say "Ya we da best"
Yes boss. You da best. My compliments

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 20:50

shiv wrote:
Waylan wrote: Honorary Super Power I should say?
You can say what you like. It's called freedom of expression. Available to Indians and in America where you live, judging from your American style English. But not available for Chinese in China. They have to toe the party line.

Chincom party say "We da best"
Chinaman say "Ya we da best"
Yes boss. You da best. My compliments

Who would dare to ridicule the biggest greatest democracy on earth? No sir, not me, by any measure.
We are secret admirers of your freedoms and wisdom. With a billion people like your good self, it's only a matter of time India conquers and rules the world. Welcome the new overlord! Three cheers!

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 20:56

kit wrote:
shiv wrote:Before I start I must post my disclaimer in case someone gets upset enough to start lecturing me

China could import no arms at all for decades after 1960, but now China is becoming an exporter after having been the world's biggest importer for about 15 years

Now the thing is the major arms exporters are now USA, Russia, Europe and China. China is breaking into areas where the USA, Russia and Europe used to lead.

India is the biggest importer -- but China does not get even one Pakistani Rupee for arms from India - we are pretty much subsidizing a US/European arms industry. As Chinese exports increase, USA and Europe will look to India to keep their arms industries afloat, and quality wise those imported arms are on average 2 generations ahead of China.

And maybe in a decade Indian imports will reduce and USA/Europe may want to export to China. But till then we can expect to have spent our money to stay qualitatively ahead of China while we build up local skills

Dont agree with that assumption... a strong economy and a relatively well equipped military can hold a much powerful adversary at bay .. Russia has just a fraction of America s military and economic might .. India is not a fraction but soon will be more than half of Chinas economy inside a decade with a military power to match .. it certainly can match and prevent any extrovert Chinese adventures

Very interesting observation.
I thought India is way ahead of China who is copying everything while India imports quality stuff and all, not to forget building the local skills in tandem.
Tricky, tricky.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 10 Sep 2016 21:33

Waylan wrote:
shiv wrote: You can say what you like. It's called freedom of expression. Available to Indians and in America where you live, judging from your American style English. But not available for Chinese in China. They have to toe the party line.

Chincom party say "We da best"
Chinaman say "Ya we da best"
Yes boss. You da best. My compliments
Who would dare to ridicule the biggest greatest democracy on earth? No sir, not me, by any measure.
We are secret admirers of your freedoms and wisdom. With a billion people like your good self, it's only a matter of time India conquers and rules the world. Welcome the new overlord! Three cheers!

Of course, now make sure you pick up 50 cents from chicom party office. Hully up befole they close up due to economic leasons.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 10 Sep 2016 21:36

Waylan wrote:
kit wrote:

Dont agree with that assumption... a strong economy and a relatively well equipped military can hold a much powerful adversary at bay .. Russia has just a fraction of America s military and economic might .. India is not a fraction but soon will be more than half of Chinas economy inside a decade with a military power to match .. it certainly can match and prevent any extrovert Chinese adventures
Very interesting observation.
I thought India is way ahead of China who is copying everything while India imports quality stuff and all, not to forget building the local skills in tandem.
Tricky, tricky.

LOL yes,,copying an failing miserably.

. The chinese only seem to know how to make things look like american but unfortunately inside stuff is still chinese quality. No wonder pakis are scared of ordering chinese weapons. Its a last resort when all second hand options have closed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 21:44

Waylan wrote:
Who would dare to ridicule the biggest greatest democracy on earth? No sir, not me, by any measure.
We are secret admirers of your freedoms and wisdom. With a billion people like your good self, it's only a matter of time India conquers and rules the world. Welcome the new overlord! Three cheers!

Ridicule is something that Indians can live with - even if you think no one would dare do that. But the statement that "it's only a matter of time India conquers and rules the world" fascinates me. This is a Chinese imagining that Indians think like Chinese. A Freudian slip. Cognitive bias.

I will allow myself a brief digression before I return to the topic of the Chinese military and its connection with this business of ruling the world. Historically India has never sought to rule the world except maybe spiritually. The Chinese were never that way either. It was the religions, Christianity and Islam which genuinely started this business of trying to rule all of the world. The ruled India and China. The Chinese under Mao came out with a huge inferiority complex and profound anger and now want to rule the world. the idea that "India will soon rule the world" stated sarcastically as has been done above is a Chinese "challenge" - a nation that desperately wants to rule the world seeking to insult and "put down" a neighbour whose pretensions are laughable. This tendency gives one a lot of leeway to needle the Chinaman who sees any challenger as an insult. But fun aside it Chinese desperation to rule the world shows out in the way they project technological achievements faking stuff as and when necessary

Anyone who has to deal with technology realizes that some things simply take time. You cannot test an engine for 1 million hour reliability in 10,000 hours. You can predict, but cannot prove that an airframe will last 3000 hours after just 500 hours. Flying an aircraft for 100 hours - say 20 hours a month will take 5 months. Then dismantling for checks will keep the frame off flying for a few weeks. If defects are seen in teh interim period it is back to square 1. If there are no defects after excess time - could it be overdesign? So there are interesting problems all along the way for normal tech researchers and engineers who are not being pushed by bosses to fake things. These things take time in the normal world.

But in the make believe world invented by the Chicoms - everything gets done straight off and is successful first time every time. Nothing fails. Nothing takes time. And if time is unavoidable there is no failure. never. I am sure this look good for people who know bugger all about science and tech - like Pakis. Of course investment, hard work and luck will bring about some spectacular successes faster than others can achieve - but claiming instant fisrt time success for everything makes the Chinese look like a bunch of frauds causing LOLs. The most entertaining part of laughing at the Chinese is that they get really angry and react. Reactions come in various ways on the internet. One is the sophisticate with sarcasm. The other is "Insult India's poverty". But gradually as word spreads in Chinese language social media that none of us visit that there is this Indian forum of black curry-breath upstarts insulting our great China - we get more and more deeply upset Hans coming on here to say why theirs is longer and thicker. It has started.

But no. tech is tech. There is some achievement and some faking in China. it is the faking that I am on the lookout for and there is plenty of it. Changing the subject to India and India hankering to rule the world is a time honouredd topic for Chinese who feel insulted. But you are allowed to insult India - on other threads. This thread is for the Chinese military, even if butt hurt Chinese can't stay on topic when they get their knickers in a knot.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 10 Sep 2016 21:49

Don't worry another Agni-5 test and chinese will be wetting their chaddis and crying about 8K range to Russia and US again.

Waylan · Post by **Waylan** » 10 Sep 2016 21:53

Bheeshma wrote:
Waylan wrote:
Very interesting observation.
I thought India is way ahead of China who is copying everything while India imports quality stuff and all, not to forget building the local skills in tandem.
Tricky, tricky.
LOL yes,,copying an failing miserably. . The chinese only seem to know how to make things look like american but unfortunately inside stuff is still chinese quality. No wonder pakis are scared of ordering chinese weapons. Its a last resort when all second hand options have closed.

lofl. You got me. Poor Chinese quality. American looks. What else?
Indian quality is so world renowned since time immemorial. Everybody can't wait to buy Indian high quality stuff.Jai Hind! India Strong !

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2016 21:55

Bheeshma wrote:Don't worry another Agni-5 test and chinese will be wetting their chaddis and crying about 8K range to Russia and US again.

No the Chinese don't so it that way. Admitting that the other party has had a success makes Chinese lose face. They react by insults and put downs and veiled threats along with boasts. That is the Chinese way especially after all culture was wiped out and the spoilt brat single child policy came in - and most Chinese adults are now of that category.

It happens all the time. On the internet and in news media. That is the way they react. Of course western culture has rubbed of on some so they seem less chinese by 10 to 1 you get a guy who insults you and boasts rather than acknowledging anything positive