There were bribery allegations against HDW in the aftermath of theJohn wrote:Viv S wrote:That said it still confounds me why we didn't choose to build more U209s we had the design.
The Indian MoD & Armed Forces work in mysterious ways. Build the infrastructure for the U-209 and then abandon it for the Scorpene. Build the infrastructure for the Scorpene and then abandon it to chase after the P75I. Design a first rate frigate and then scupper the production at three units. Design and build a first rate corvette and then pay for ToT to build a Russian design domestically.John wrote:Don't think Phillip responded to this but 300 mill for new Kilo is unlikely. Vietnam paid 2 billion for 6 Kilo's in 2009 and the deal was likely subsidized by Russia. IMO a brand new one would cost at least 500 million adjusted for inflation. That said it still confounds me why we didn't choose to build more U209s we had the design.
The guy can do it, IMHO. But while getting it done, would he cause waves that cause collateral damage?In a first for a private Indian defence company, Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Co. Ltd. (PDOC) announced on Tuesday a joint venture (JV) with Russia’s Zvyozdochka submarine overhaul yard. This positions PDOC nicely for overhauling India’s nine Russian-origin Kilo-class submarines, and several identical submarines operated by other regional navies.
In an official announcement in Mumbai today, PDOC stated: “The indicative value of work proposed to be undertaken by the proposed JV is approx. (sic) Rs 11,000 crore.”
PDOC also mentioned “potential additional revenues of approx. Rs 20,000 crore” from the navies of Iran, Algeria and Vietnam.
A submarine undergoes an overhaul or refit --- termed “medium refit and life certification” (MRLC) --- every 10-15 years in its 30-year service life. This involves upgrading weapons, sensors and communications systems; and inspecting, repairing and replacing worn out parts of a submarine’s two hulls (an inner “pressure hull” and an outer hull).
Refitting a Kilo-class (or 877 EKM) submarine in India offers advantages like cheaper labour costs and saving on transportation to Russia and back. It also provides opportunities for indigenizing sub-systems in the submarine, and develops expertise.
PDOC’s statement says that Zvyozdochka will “provide complete technical assistance and support to the JV, including inter alia for enhancement of infrastructure at the PDOC facilities, training of engineers, etc. PDOC technicians will also be closely associated with the first Refit to be carried out in Russia.”
On August 29, 2014, the defence ministry had cleared a Rs 4,800 crore refit for six submarines. Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai, was to refit two German-origin HDW submarines. Meanwhile Zvyozdochka and Naval Dockyard, Mumbai would each refit two Kilo-class submarines.
It is unclear whether the defence ministry is committed to the new JV between PDOC and Zvyozdochka; and, if so, whether it would change the arrangement it has already cleared.
It is also unclear whether the defence ministry would disregard the experience already developed in two Indian shipyards --- Naval Dockyard, Visakhapatnam, and Hindustan Shipyard Ltd, Visakhapatnam (HSL) --- which have refitted one Kilo-class submarine each.
Furthermore, other Indian shipyards, including Larsen & Toubro, are competing for a chunk of the submarine overhaul business.
HSL, especially, has had a bitter experience with Zvyozdochka, reported by this newspaper (September 2, 2014, “Russia delayed sub refit to weaken shipyard?”), in which the overhaul of a Kilo-class vessel, INS Sindhukirti, dragged on for nine years. Senior HSL officials made a strong case to suggest that Zvyozdochka experts deliberately prolonged the refit by ordering unnecessary work, to eliminate HSL from future Indian submarine refits.
Now officials from HSL and other shipyards allege that Zvyozdochka has chosen to partner PDOC, a new player in the market, in order to comprehensively control the refit programme, which the Russians would be unable to do with a more experienced Indian shipyard.
Rivals point out that PDOC has never produced a single naval combat vessel of any complexity. It is true that the shipyard is long overdue on delivering a Rs 2,500-crore order for five Naval Offshore Patrol Vessels.
Even so, Anil Ambani’s Reliance Infrastructure has recently thrown its weight behind the shipyard, acquiring it in March from Nikhil Gandhi of Sea King Infrastructure Ltd. Ambani paid Rs 819 crore for an 18 per cent stake, and is committed to making a public offer for another 26 per cent of the shipyard.
Ambani is gung-ho about PDOC’s prospects. At a seminar in Delhi on July 16, he spelled out an expansive vision of Pipavav Shipyard as a “Global Centre of Excellence” that would build warships of all kinds, from aircraft carriers to frigates to submarines.
Claiming that Pipavav Shipyard had assets worth over Rs 10,000 crore, Ambani played up its impressive shipbuilding facilities, including “the largest dry dock in the country and second-largest in the world”, Ambani said he would invest another Rs 5,000 crore in the shipyard.
If Ambani’s PDOC lacks experience, Zvyozdochka has that aplenty. Established in 1954, it has overhauled or refurbished more than 120 submarines and 90 warships. It remains to be seen how much of that experience and hold over the market it is willing to transfer to PDOC.
Anyone know if Chotu Bhai's claim is correct? I mean it's easy to believe "largest in India". But "second-largest in the world" is pretty tall claim. If it's correct that's serious infrastructure, should come to good use for the Navy.Claiming that Pipavav Shipyard had assets worth over Rs 10,000 crore, Ambani played up its impressive shipbuilding facilities, including “the largest dry dock in the country and second-largest in the world”, Ambani said he would invest another Rs 5,000 crore in the shipyard.
Was just checking. Newport News' Drydock 12 has a length of 661.6 meters and a width of 76.2 meters. They build the Nimitz carriers there.Singha wrote:from their website it does appear true:largest Drydock in the country of , 662 m X 65 m size with 2 X 600 ton SWL Goliath Cranes.
The dry dock and surrounding facilities are located on 104 hectares (257 acres) of land adjoined by a dedicated waterfront.
Adjacent to the dry dock is a pre-erection berth 980 meters long and 40 meters wide that is fully reinforced to enable mega blocks to be assembled on the land berth before being lowered into the dry dock.
depth is 11 meters
---
here it is working on two ships..so must be very long
http://russia-insider.com/sites/insider ... -x-400.jpg
--this thing is easily capable of building a 320meters ship like the INS Vishal-BR-edition. they will need more powerful goliath cranes thats all.
PS:IN Scorpenes at $800+M also do not come with AIP.The cost of the last two boats which are supposed to come with an AIP system (Indian preferably)will be more.Submarines: Vietnamese Kilo Hits The Water
Next Article → LEADERSHIP: The Bill For Independence Comes Due
September 15, 2012: In August, Vietnam announced that it had finalized the purchase of six Kilo class submarines. About the same time Russia revealed that the first of these Vietnamese Kilos was in the water and will undergo sea trials before the end of the year.
It was three years ago that Vietnam first announced that it was buying six Russian Kilo class submarines, for $300 million each. The Kilos weigh 2,300 tons (surface displacement), have six torpedo tubes, and a crew of 57. They are quiet and can travel about 700 kilometers under water at a quiet speed of about five kilometers an hour. Kilos carry 18 torpedoes or SS-N-27 anti-ship missiles (with a range of 300 kilometers and launched underwater from the torpedo tubes). The combination of quietness and cruise missiles makes Kilo very dangerous to surface ships. North Korea, China, and Iran have also bought Kilos. China is building its own unlicensed version of the Kilo (the Type 41 Song class). Considering the low price, it appears that the Vietnamese boats do not have AIP (Air Independent Propulsion), which allows non-nuclear boats to stay underwater for weeks at a time.
yes they are able to weld entire slices of the carrier hull beside the drydock , put in some interior work like pipes and then lift it for mating and welding with other adjacent sections. the entire island around 1000tons is also lifted into place like a lego brick per a natgeo mighty ships episode.
India, Thailand agree to enhance naval cooperation: Dhowan
Friday, July 24, 2015
Bangkok: India and Thailand have agreed to forge and enhance naval cooperation including sharing of data and information on shipping, which will help the two navies jointly address any emerging threats and challenges.
During talks by visiting Indian Navy Chief Admiral RK Dhowan, the two nations explored more avenues to further strengthen relationship in accordance with India's "Act East Policy".
Dhowan yesterday held wide ranging talks with his Thai counterpart Admiral Khamthorn Pumhiran on sharing of data and information on shipping, training and on giving more content to Coordinated Patrol (CORPAT).
India-Thailand defence cooperation includes regular joint exercises, training of officers at each other's armed forces training institutions and exchange visits at various levels.
India and Thailand share a maritime boundary in the Andaman Sea. The Navy-to-Navy cooperation is the leading component of the defence cooperation between the two countries.
The Indian Navy regularly interacts with Royal Thailand Navy through Navy-to-Navy staff talks. The Thai also side referred to cooperation on humanitarian assistance to sea migrants and anti-piracy, sources said.
Dhowan who is on a two-nation tour of Singapore and Thailand, today met the Thai Permanent Secretary of Defence, Gen Sirachai Distakul.
General Sirachai had led a 13-member delegation to India in March to examine possible cooperation in defence production, research and sourcing.
Both navies also interact in multilateral fora such as Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS), Western Pacific Naval Symposium (WPNS), MILAN held biennially at Port Blair.
The Indian Navy and Thai Navy conduct Coordinated Patrolling (CORPAT) across International Maritime Boundary Line (IMBL) twice a year.
Exchange of best practises and experiences and cooperation in Meteorology/Tsunami warning is another area where both navies cooperate.
India's relationship with Thailand has evolved into a comprehensive partnership.
India's 'Act East' policy has been complemented by Thailand's 'Look West' policy and has assisted in bringing the two countries together.
PTI
India helped Iran operationalize their Killos in Warm water of Indian ocean.NRao wrote:I just hope the MoD/GoI considers the "security" implications of such a move.
Easy to say that another country can send their subs to India for maintenance/upgrades, but it is totally different when one thinks in terms of what India will get to know about these subs. Will that be acceptable to a nation like Iran? It would mean that nations would now need to "trust" two nations while making decisions to purchase a sub from Russia.
And also the Dolphin class subs of Israel to test fire missiles.Jhujar wrote:India helped Iran operationalize their Killos in Warm water of Indian ocean.NRao wrote:I just hope the MoD/GoI considers the "security" implications of such a move.
Easy to say that another country can send their subs to India for maintenance/upgrades, but it is totally different when one thinks in terms of what India will get to know about these subs. Will that be acceptable to a nation like Iran? It would mean that nations would now need to "trust" two nations while making decisions to purchase a sub from Russia.
Even then, nations have things on board that they never reveal to others.India helped Iran operationalize their Killos in Warm water of Indian ocean
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The Indian Navy on Friday carried out a rare rescue attempt by lending a Dornier to ferry a heart from Thiruvananthapuram to Kochi, an operation that not only saved an auto driver's life but became the first time in India that a defence aircraft was used as air ambulance in a civilian medical emergency.
On Friday morning, 46-year-old Neelakanda Sharma was declared brain-dead at Thiruvananthapuram's Sree Chitra Tirunal Institute of Medical Sciences and his family agreed to donate his heart. Mathew Achadan, a 47-year-old auto driver, suffering from dilated cardiomyopathy, was to be the recipient at Kochi's Lissie Hospital.
But transferring the heart from Thiruvananthapuram to Kochi, even with a green corridor, in less than the four-hour deadline imposed by doctors was going to be impossible.
By 6.10pm, a group of doctors at Sree Chitra Tirunal Institute had harvested Sharma's heart after a five-hour operation that had its share of anxious moments. Then began the most dangerous part.
In a clinical operation that saw the police, hospital authorities and the Indian Navy work seamlessly, the heart was taken to the IAF base in the state capital in 18 minutes. The Dornier carrying the heart took off at 6.48pm and reached Kochi's naval base at 7.29pm.
The ambulance left the Kochi naval air station at 7.34pm and, due to spotless traffic coordination involving around 200 policemen, it reached Lissie Hospital 10km away in eight minutes and 32 seconds. The transplant operation began at 8pm.
It all started with a phone call by the Ernakulam district collector to the Navy PRO on Friday morning. The collector sought a navy chopper but the navy authorities, after consultations with higher-ups, did one better. They said they were ready to provide an aircraft since a chopper would take close to 90 minutes for the flight between the two cities whereas a Dornier could do it in just 35 minutes.
"The ischemic timing of a heart is four to five hours and a heart that has been removed should start beating in a new destination within that period or else we may not get the desired result. Luckily we were able to finish the removal in Thiruvananthapuram by 6.10pm and start transplanting by 8pm," said Dr Joe Joseph, cardiologist at Lisie Heart Institute, who is part of the transplant team.
The heart transplant on Mathew was done by a team of four doctors headed by Dr Jose Chacko Periyappuram.
The Russians are also developing their own AIP system:The second generation fuel-cell AIP developed by DCNS usees hydrogen produced from diesel fuel by hydrocarbon reforming.
One obvious advantage of the DCNS AIP is the easy availability of diesel at any port around the globe. The absence of pure-oxygen in the cells allows longer life cycle. DCNS claims that the life cycle of its new AIP plug roughly matches the life-cycle of the submarine, which isn't the case with other fuel cell types.
There is no doubting the sophistication of the DCNS 2nd generation AIP, which has to be weighed against the higher initial cost, high recurring cost from the need to use AIP is all future conventional subs, and the continued dependence on foreign technology. But then DRDO has a well earned notoriety of delays!
A nice AIP primer here and an Oz comparative analysis of all systems,with diagrams,v.good:MOSCOW (BNS): Russia has announced that it is designing a new class of conventional submarines which will be equipped with advanced air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems.
The Commander of Russian Navy, Adm. Viktor Chirkov said on Wednesday that the new fifth-generation submarines will be designated as the Kalina class.
"Russia is currently designing a fifth-generation conventional submarine, dubbed Project Kalina, which will be fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system," Adm. Viktor Chirkov said.
"Our industry promises to develop this AIP system by 2017 and build the first boat fitted with such a system by 2018," Chirkov was quoted as saying by Ria Novosti.
Well you convert energy form to another onlee, so hydrocarbon fuel for example is also energy storage in a way. I suppose the li-ion battery would have several advantages like no moving parts, not requiring oxidiser/or storing exhaust gases, ability to spread around the weight and volume of the battery packs etc. Of course you would have to charge up 2-3 weeks of battery backup, wonder how long that takes for the soryu.Cybaru wrote:I think batteries are not AIP. Batteries compete with AIP. It is a substitute product. It does not make energy, it just stores it.
abhik wrote:Well you convert energy form to another onlee, so hydrocarbon fuel for example is also energy storage in a way. I suppose the li-ion battery would have several advantages like no moving parts, not requiring oxidiser/or storing exhaust gases, ability to spread around the weight and volume of the battery packs etc. Of course you would have to charge up 2-3 weeks of battery backup, wonder how long that takes for the soryu.Cybaru wrote:I think batteries are not AIP. Batteries compete with AIP. It is a substitute product. It does not make energy, it just stores it.
Philip I trust that you are NOT advocating that we do not use our indigenous (nuclear) technology and opt for foreign (AIP) technology !!!Philip wrote:Why the IN seems to have plumped for the only true AIP,N-powered subs for the future. These are both more expensive to acquire and operate and have limitations in the shallow littoral waters.So we'll have to have a mix of sub types.Interesting times for sub warfare.
