Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

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vsudhir
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Post by vsudhir »

Dunno, seems to me if the hyper-rational sea-lane builders really wanted the sea-lane and not a phree ego-massaging victory-dance ritual as well,
they could've used a lot less belligerence and lot more tact (re-read rationality).

What was the freakin need to (deliberately? calculatingly?) inflame (crude, dumb perhaps) opposition by pissing on SDRE yindoo sentiment (however far-fetched it seems that some historical figure, much revered perhaps, built the Ram setu)?

Heck, a zimble statement of what is objectively known is enough, one would've thought. No? Why this need to cr@p all over sdre sentiment, i wonder? And then there are arguments like "Rameshwaram==Sudan and Ayodhya==a cr@phole" and 'my faith/shrine/church is oh-so-more rational and civic-minded and sweeter-smelling than yours' kinda bravado. Further the massa-la to the mix, I guess. Easily done since 'em yindoos are the targets. Makes many a YINO feel ego-swollen and massa-ged and struttable on the world 'art/ litt /humanatarian' stage too (recall the likes of Romila T, R Guha, S Ghouse etc). More humilation in the next course of this gourmet meal ordered.

Point isn't why its a good idea to build the lane (I'm 400% on board onlee) but how to do it - with a straight face, minimum fuss, one would've thought. No? The folks in charge of pu-shing the lane through seem quite interested in making faces and pissing on what are anyway fictitious, superstitious (as opposed to supernatural in the Ibrahamic case) bilge in their view, right? They're the ones genuinely and rationally for building a trouble free lane, right?
:evil:

And then pose like we're the onlee ones here who understand the issues and care about the good of the country and TN and what not. Enough already. :evil:
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Tanaji wrote:As someone said before most sane elements dont give a rat's ass about who built what. The thing that got my goat was the affidavit that was filed. Technically, the ASI was right of course... but as usual its the double standards that were followed that gets us riled up.
How many time must I say this, it was intended to get you guys.

KK is like that only.

Note he attacks Ram but you won't hear a word out of him about Murugan or Balaji or Hanuman etc. He doesn't care one way or the other about the Hindu Faith, but Ram he can turn into a Northern God issue. Which is playing exactly to his plan so far.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

SBajwa wrote:Satyamev Jayate i.e. "Truth alone Triumphs"

so!! the truth is that this channel will help reduce the cost of traffic between Bombay and Calcutta (east and west coast of India)

so!! Government of India along with Government of Srilanka should create an artificial bridge (like in florida keys) to represent the real Rama Bridge and then also create the channel.
Agree 400% only.

Though you do realize said bridge will terminate in LTTE territory.

I have advocated the bridge in the past as way to end the war in lanka. A peace offering if you will. Ram would have loved it.

BUT the bridge will destroy even more of the Ram Setu. Will it not.

Anyone wish to comment.
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Post by Tanaji »

"you guys"

Funny, I had this feeling we were all Indian. Evidently Karunkaran doesnt think so.

"Northern God"

I dont view myself as Northerner (funny how this feeling is dependant on where you come from), yet, the assumption is Northern people dont have religious sentiments? So its open season on our sentiments? So who is to blame if there is a backlash and why complain in that case? First you instigate and then deliver pious lectures on rationality?

:roll:
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Post by SwamyG »

Very interesting discussions. Just thought I will add a lame and unnecessary clarification:
Added later :
PS: It's not KK, but M.Karunanidhi Rolling Eyes
I think Theo used KK because MK has the title "Kalaingnar", and tamilians immediately recognize who is the present day "Kalaingnar" and he is often called "Kalaingnar Karunanidhi".

The title and usage implies how much one segment of the "dravidians" adore him.
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Post by indygill »

Theo_Fidel

You surely show lots of respect towards other faiths especially towards Hindus. It is evident from half-truths you have said.

How would you feel if you are asked to prove scientifically that Jesus was born to a “virginâ€
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Post by vsudhir »

deleted

written in pique
Last edited by vsudhir on 20 Sep 2007 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

The thing that got my goat was the affidavit that was filed. Technically, the ASI was right of course... And what do you think about the gratuitous remarks of Karunanidhi? Would he say that Muhammed was a child molester in a public forum? The blatant duplicity and derision handed out to the majority religion results in a backlash, which says if the government can be so insensitive and irrational, why not try our irrationality for a change since its the only language the government seems to understand.


Hey, no argument from me, except that I would say that the ASI is utterly idiotic, and far worse if they actually filed that affidavit without immense pressure from the Mantri's Executive Asst.

If u watch "Yes Minister" I think u can figure out where that Affidavit actually came from. The ASI guys of course became the scapegoats.

There is in fact far more "historical evidence" of the Ramayana than there is about all the miraculous occurrences claimed as "history" in other belief systems. Well.. maybe V.I. Lenin actually existed, since they kept his corpse pickled for 75 years in Red Square.

So to sit in India and file something like that in 2007 is, yes, inexcusable.

As for Karunanidhi, thanx but no thanx, I think any comment about that dude is superfluous.

And yes, I agree that the sorry state of Rameshwaram and coastal TN is a gross failure of governance, but then most of TN looks desperately poor because the people are so simple and frugal. But Rameshwaram Island desperately needs development. The TN govt HAS been pleading with the Centre for decades, for the Canal, and for other development there. So it is substantially the fault of the Central govt. as well - building big infrastructure in a cyclone-prone area is not easy, as we see.

The reason why the project is run out of the Tuticorin Port Authority is that Tuticorin (Toothukudi) stands to gain immensely from this project - that's another desperately poor area (I've never been there, but many of the tea plantation workers in central Sri Lanka were from that district .. and preferred the horrible conditions there to returning to Tuticorin).

So at least let's give Jayalalithaaaa credit for TRYING.

But in all this, I do have to note that the RSS is the entity that has focused exclusively on "communalizing" a project that was bacially for everyone's good. Sorry, but I watched this develop starting from the first stirrings of their stupid idea, and am left in no doubt on this issue. Now of course, it's successfully inflamed with buses burned along with the infirm passengers inside, Affidavits that make u wonder if there is any human intelligence at all in Dilli, and such other signs of intelligent debate.

Sure, the utter bigotry exposed, has to be fully exploited. But it would be a bad mistake to throw out the project along with that. At this point, the "Hindu" interest should be in emulating what the Commies did, back at them.

Until about 2005, the Commies were dead set against this project. Environmental concerns, concern for the fishermen (whom they want to keep barefoot and pregnant and hungry enough to depend on the commies), etc. etc. All crocodile tears. But NOW, since they see the Holies out in force, the Commies are 400% in FAVOR of the project.

The Hindu interest now should be to demand that the project go ahead as planned, BUT with the southern canal (the Ram sethu dredging) done with all due consecration ceremonies, blessings invoked, and a fine monument and museum built, say at Mandapam or Rameshwaram (somewhere high enough to survive the annual cyclone/tidal waves). And demand some very substantial development money to build holy facilities there, and generate a lot of employment based on the Ramayana in southern TN. Hi-speed rail, an airport, whatever.

This would completely upset the commies, break the commie and conversionist hold on eastern/southern TN, and turn the politics around to good advantage.

Yeah, I'm waiting with bated breath...
:roll:
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Post by SwamyG »

Creating a monument of the material dredged is a brilliant idea. Construct the monument in an area that has very little local business/tourism - and it attracts revenue to the area.

:idea: Brilliance, man. Brilliance.
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Post by shaardula »

theo & n3...

you cannot lay the blame of making this a religious battle entirely on RSS. Sure RSS is given to do this. But the "other-side" is not without blame. They made it a issue of religion and then added fuel to that. What was the necessity to debate localization of rama in the north vs south?

What have they done to educate people about the benefits of the projects, about the possible solutions like you guys have? What else is the job of a CM if not to educate people and take them along? The antecedents of dravida politics means people assume the worst, should he not say no it is not like that, we have do this because this, this and this is the issue.

the type of points you guys made, none of these guys made, how else do you expect the reaction would be?
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

shaardula wrote:the type of points you guys made, none of these guys made, how else do you expect the reaction would be?
Not True. How do you think we came by this info.

The TN leaders have repeatedly stressed these facts. But no, everyone had to pick up on a selective bunch of comments to get outraged.

here

http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/17/stories ... 240600.htm

here

http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/22/stories ... 650300.htm

here

http://www.hindu.com/2005/01/03/stories ... 260500.htm

and as recently as two days ago here

http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/17/stories ... 960400.htm

I could go on and on. This thing has been discussed within TN for over 40 years. All these guys are come latelies.

Every single aspect of this project has been analyzed and is compiled on the website below. Open for everyone to read. Can you say that about oh say the Tehri dam on the Ganga. It's another matter that few have bothered to go there and read for themselves.

http://sethusamudram.gov.in/
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Post by SwamyG »

The Hindu interest now should be to demand that the project go ahead as planned, BUT with the southern canal (the Ram sethu dredging) done with all due consecration ceremonies, blessings invoked, and a fine monument and museum built, say at Mandapam or Rameshwaram (somewhere high enough to survive the annual cyclone/tidal waves). And demand some very substantial development money to build holy facilities there, and generate a lot of employment based on the Ramayana in southern TN. Hi-speed rail, an airport, whatever.

This would completely upset the commies, break the commie and conversionist hold on eastern/southern TN, and turn the politics around to good advantage.
Allot few more crores from the project (or other means) to build the monument/museum; set up a fund for maintenance ; declare it a national heritage. It creates one more "poonya sthalam" in Tamil Nadu.

Hope some political party kicks this idea up a notch, and get this done. Kalaingar creating a monument for Ramar - just tickles me :-)

Add a clause the canal can not be open; until the monument (a.k.a temple in India) is open and all poojai-punaskarams are performed.
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Post by Bade »

Also call it the Sethuraman Canal instead of the Sethudsamudram project. 8)

N3: I realised now that Tad Murthy does not buy into global warming theories either. :oops:
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Sethu Cost Escalation

Sethu project faces 20-30% cost surge
Animesh Singh / New Delhi September 20, 2007
The Rs 2,427.40-crore Sethusamudram canal project off the Tamil Nadu coast will face a cost escalation of over 20 to 30 per cent and a delay of over a year if the government decides to re-align the canal in response to opposition from various political parties.

Shipping ministry officials said a new alignment for the canal would require fresh geological studies like soil testing, wave and sedimentation testing and, most importantly, an environmental impact assessment.

Ministry officials add that the current deadline of November 30, 2008, cannot be met since work on the project has been stopped following a Supreme Court order on September 14. So far, only 35 per cent of the dredging work has been completed.

The current alignment of the canal runs through the controversial Adam’s Bridge, which was selected by the National Environmental Engineering and Research Institute (NEERI), because of its distance from the land that would minimise the enviromental impact.

The opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), which considers Adam’s Bridge of religious significance, has suggested an alignment that runs through the ecologically sensitive marine bio-park in the Palk Bay. Ministry officials said this was not a feasible arrangement, as it is closer to the land mass and would affect local fishermen. The Palk Bay was one of five alignments that the NEERI rejected. while conducting the environmental study for the project.

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Post by hnair »

Tanaji wrote:"you guys"

Funny, I had this feeling we were all Indian. Evidently Karunkaran doesnt think so.
And yet you mispronounce "we guys" name. :P

Karunakaran (do not forget the "a") is Kerala's own Pu deposit, not TN's.
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Post by Bade »

The opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), which considers Adam’s Bridge of religious significance, has suggested an alignment that runs through the ecologically sensitive marine bio-park in the Palk Bay. Ministry officials said this was not a feasible arrangement, as it is closer to the land mass and would affect local fishermen. The Palk Bay was one of five alignments that the NEERI rejected. while conducting the environmental study for the project.

Bad idea and in any case Shri Ram the Uttama Purushottam he was would not have allowed this. :roll:
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Post by PradyD »

Theo_fidel:

if there is anybody selectively picking and chosing, it's you. statements like "which college did Ram graduate from" are highly vitriolic and provocative. you are expecting too much by thinking Hindus should just let it go.

no christian would let it go. no muslim would let it go. they will protest, even violently. and it has happened now when Hindus are hurt.

anyway, recent affidavit and MK's statements question the existence of Ram. you are saying Hindus shouldn't do anything. tomorrow i'll call Jesus Christ a ********, will you just let it go? will Christians just let it go? the seccilarists will be scouting for my head? Pope will condemn me and my family to hell. no?
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Post by hnair »

indygill wrote: Everyone knows that there is only one Ramayan and that is Valmikis. Two accepted interpretation of Ramayan are in north and south. In north hindi-belt it is Tulsi Das Ramchritramanas and in south it is the "Ramavataram" by Kavicakravarti Kambanand
Must avoid this broad brushing, folks. Indygill, I dont think entire "South" reads Kamba Ramayanam . In Kerala, there is the Adhyathma Ramayanam that is quite popular.

And to all those who said "South no likee Rama", in Kerala at least, we have a whole month for reading up Ramayanam. So am sure, even TN has a substantial Rama bhakthas. And the fact is that point ("Rama exists" or "He is not liked here") is totally irrelevant in this agitation. So why make that irrelevant point at all and provoke others who do like Rama?

So please dont drag in "because no body in South practices, it is ok". That is like justifying Karunanidhi and co's crazy provocations.

The issue is one of whether politico-religious negotiations has been attempted by all sides. And as pointed out by Theo, there were 40 years to do that. The answer is no. None gave a damn till recently.

This is like MF Hussain and Bajrang Dal relationship. I am sure that MFH, before he stretches the canvas and washes up his painting knives for his next art series, picks up the phone, calls Bajrangis: "Heads up boys, I am about to paint something to pay for a house in Dubai/London. What would provoke you more, so that my name can be spread by my art agents in the West? And this time I want Islamic Rage Boy type rage". :roll:
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Post by hnair »

Bade wrote:A zimble question onlee....


BTW, I was under the impression that the Cochin shipping channel was only 12m deep hence Trivandrum was lobbying for the Vizhijam port claiming deeper depth for larger ships that ply the international route on the west coast. So where will that leave the sethu-samudram project ?
Bade, the Sethusamudram, atleast its civilian side, is for coastal shipping traffic. The transhipment ports planned in Kochi/Vizhinjam, JNPT, Chennai Port etc will handle the bigger ships, which offload their containers to these smaller coastal ships, which can then ply up and down the East and Western seaboard of India, making calls at Minor and Medium ports. And there are a lot of Medium and Minor ports in under developed areas along the coast. This will theoretically decentralize industry and trading and help the southern regions of TN up to Colachel.

Sethusamudram project will help this coastal traffic immensely, by allowing these smaller ships (which might not be all weather/seaworthy ships to make the trip around SriLanka) to make the passage quicker. alongside TN coast. Also as Enqyoob-saar pointed out, the Panamax/MalacacMax category Malacca route traffic can steam up to Chennai Port in a far more easier way. Considering how Chennai region is turning out to be an industrial powerhouse, this project would definitely help.

As for Global Warming, I am scouting for some property atop the Agasthyakoodam 8)
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

hnair wrote:Bade, the Sethusamudram, atleast its civilian side, is for coastal shipping traffic. The transhipment ports planned in Kochi/Vizhinjam, JNPT, Chennai Port etc will handle the bigger ships, which offload their containers to these smaller coastal ships, which can then ply up and down the East and Western seaboard of India, making calls at Minor and Medium ports. And there are a lot of Medium and Minor ports in under developed areas along the coast.
transshipment is a small component of shipping right now. Columbo serves as the transshipment center with Tuticorin withering on the vine even for Chennai traffic.

Bulk haulage of coal, oil and minerals is much bigger traffic.

Most of the major direct shipping lines skip India's east coast ports because of the extra cost of rounding lanka.

Once the Sethu is in place we have a much better chance of getting some direct connections to world cities.

Right now it take 5 weeks for a piece of textile exported to get to the West Coast of America. 7 Weeks for the East coast. This conpared to 3 weeks or less for China. At least a couple of weeks can be knocked off with direct shipment to these places.

I would like to point out that as part of TN's development plans 2 large UMPP's are planned with imported coal in Cheyyur or Nagapatinam. Based on where the coal is sourced coal ships would always prefer the relatively calm waters of the strait.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

In case ppl have not seen precisely what the project people have done:

Sethusamudram Corporation: Terms of reference with NEERI

SSC home page
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Post by shaardula »

theo,

i guess what i was saying is, that even if the impact of that is max in TN, it is a national project and you have to carry the entire nation now. instead it has now got embroiled in a tangle that is detrimental to the project. TN might have been preparing for 100 years, but the rest of the nation has not. what is the reach of 2 year old the hindu archives and a website? couldn't MuKa have said, see this is a serious social, scientific and economic case, please visit www.sethusamudram.com to understand this.
thats the least he could have done.

there might be information in the archives, but the average joe is informed by what is in news right now, when the issue is hot. and what do i hear, rama is not south god, is rama engineer, rama a drunkard and other such crap.

RSS, BJP donot have to look at these websites to learn about the project. they know what the issue is even otherwise, they are now playing their own game. and as long as MuKa plays his game, what they do is par for the course. but the average joe in the rest of the country who has lent his support to them now, only knows what he hears on the daily news and the kind of MuKa talk does not help.

if this snowballs and kills the project, then MuKa would have sacrificed a once in a century opportunity at the altar of ideology and theory based on shaky grounds.

The onus is really not on RSS & BJP, but on MuKa.
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Post by Sanjay M »

Karunanidhi himself is just another Robert Mugabe. He should change his name from Muthuvel Karunanidhi to Mugabe Karunanidhi.

Mugabe is another odious ractist -- a "revolutionary" who is trying to keep his failed revolution going by stirring up hatred against whites. Karunanidhi is doing exactly the same thing -- it's all he has to fall back on, when his ideologically bankrupt values can't improve the lives of ordinary people. Therefore this creep will forever be railing at the 'northies'. He needs the 'Evil North Indian Menace' to survive politically. The man is a slimeball.

The Palk Straits are no Suez Canal or Panama Canal opportunity. Sri Lanka is not the size of Africa or South America, that require extremely lengthy circumnavigation.

But a canal through the Palk Straits would provide a nice fertile hunting ground for the LTTE to blend into. I'm sure that racist aggressor Karunanidhi is salivating over that prospect. It will enable him and his supporters to fulfill their grand dream of Eelam, and strike a blow at the non-Dravidian untermenschen.
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Post by shaardula »

repeat
Last edited by shaardula on 21 Sep 2007 16:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Ah! The Nuclear Thread tactics.

SanjayM writes:
The Palk Straits are no Suez Canal or Panama Canal opportunity. Sri Lanka is not the size of Africa or South America, that require extremely lengthy circumnavigation.


For small businesses in India, it makes all the difference. Of course that is only important to Indians. Nah! not at all important in the Global sense.

SanjayM writes:
But a canal through the Palk Straits would provide a nice fertile hunting ground for the LTTE to blend into.


HUH??????? :roll:

You mean, for the LTTE's frigates, destroyers and battle cruisers, no doubt. :roll:

The main security argument for the canal is that it allows the Indian Navy to pursue these buggers into what is now a region where navy ships cannot go.

Would a weeeeeee bit of thinking be in order, perhaps, and not done using the fingers?
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Post by Sanjay M »

enqyoob wrote:For small businesses in India, it makes all the difference. Of course that is only important to Indians. Nah! not at all important in the Global sense.
That's nonsense, this project is not being driven by small business interests, any more than Lalu's Animal Fodder scheme in Bihar was being driven by small farmers.
HUH??????? :roll:

You mean, for the LTTE's frigates, destroyers and battle cruisers, no doubt. :roll:

The main security argument for the canal is that it allows the Indian Navy to pursue these buggers into what is now a region where navy ships cannot go.

Would a weeeeeee bit of thinking be in order, perhaps, and not done using the fingers?
Excuse me, but LTTE's tiny boats don't carry a huge amount of supplies. They can also be found and sunk. But once Karunanidhi-Mugabe gets his shipping lane in place, it will be easy for LTTE to tap into that traffic stream for their own benefit. It will be easy for the Tigers to derive great benefit from this.

What the hell would you need a frigate to chase a light boat with? Do you see the US coastguard chasing cigarette boats run by drug smugglers using frigates?? If you provide a stream of commercial traffic through that area, then LTTE will be hiding in it, JUST LIKE THEY ALREADY DO WITH FISHING BOATS FROM TAMIL NADU.

Karunanidhi is a Mugabe / Idi Amin wanna-be.
He narrowly eulogizes about his Dravidian master race, while spitting venom against the non-Dravidian untermenschen. His is a purely racial agenda, and certainly not an atheist one.

He is quietly trying to help the LTTE by creating a shipping channel for them to hide in. Then LTTE can hide amongst the shipping traffic, obtain resupply and even raid/ransom cargo as needed.

This Dravidianist thug has the closet goal of breaking up India and replacing it with his precious racially pure Eelam -- another "Land of the Pure".
He won't admit to his agenda outright -- not yet. It's only once he has carried the agenda far enough that it cannot be stopped, that he will then announce his goal of breaking up India and replacing it with the Eelam dreamland.
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Post by Surya »

Damn - The Atlanticists have to be involved somewhere????


Was the LTTE even there when this project was first mooted??

On the other hand if you continue on this line that it is all about a master Atlanticist plan now with the Dravidanists :eek: - well maybe thats what will happen.

Sometimes you get what you wish for.

ANd the ease with whihc you subscribe (not the first time btw) to all the folks in TN subscribing to the plan is amazing.
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Post by SwamyG »

Few questions related to the economy (for the moment).

The SCL website lists this as one of the national benefits:
The project will contribute to the national economy, develop the coastal districts of Tamilnadu, and improve the International competitiveness of India's exports.
I understand it is going to cut sailing time by 30~ hours - for a journey between the east and the west coast. Q1.But how is it going to improve International competitiveness of India's exports?
The Project will lead to considerable savings and earnings of foreign exchange. It is estimated that EXIM trade incurred on additional expenditure of approx Rs. 1000 Crores in foreign exchanging in transshipment of Indian cargo outside the country during the financial year 2003 -04 alone.
Q2.Does the above mean India is paying "somebody" money to skirt around Srilanka?

In the discussions so far, that have been very informative, N3 and Theo have argued it is going to help the local economy - I agree; they also have commented how bad the region is at present. I have not been to that place, but I think I saw it in a movie or two - looked "wretchedly" beautiful. Q3. If there is nothing there, is there any numbers on the people who migrate out of that place?

On the SCL website's homepage, they have quantified just one thing - reduction in sailing time. The Rs 1000 crores number seem to be {direct quote} "foreign exchanging in transshipment of Indian cargo outside the country". So it does not necessarily mean because of the absence of a navigational channel the country is spending Rs.1000 crores. It could be for other sailing routes as well. But my question is Q4. Calculating the saving of sailing time is probably the easiest, why aren't some numbers for other benefits listed? I know it is hard to quantify several of the benefits, but that is why experts exist and pour in their contribution. I don't expect them to pull out numbers from thin air or pockets - but vague words like "substantial benefits" does not show confidence. They talk about payback period, but there is no number.

Just from the sailing time reduction, saving port charges etc they could have calculated an estimated monetary benefit. Putting such numbers will convey that they have contacted the relevant experts and covered as many cracks as possible. It makes their case stronger. I am not expecting numbers for every benefit, just wherever it is possible. In the absence it just gives a queasy feeling.

ps: I still like the memorial/temple idea.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

SanjayM writes (with his usual humility accompanied by the usual amount of deep thought):
That's nonsense, this project is not being driven by small business interests, any more than Lalu's Animal Fodder scheme in Bihar was being driven by small farmers.


Just like the computer revolution was not driven by small business interests, but by the interests of IBM, Bell Labs, Motorola and Intel. Microsoft came late, but also OBVIOUSLY not a small business. Great forward thinking there!

Also, cheaper airfares were not driven by small business interests, or any interests of small people.

APEX Air fare Chennai-Mumbai-Atlanta in 1978 (one-way) was around $900 to $1000.

Today it is still around that, round-trip, though the dollar has fallen in value by some huge factor. Compare air traffic today and 1978. Oh, no! a drop in transportation costs will have NOOOOO effect on the mobility of people, or the growth of small businesses!


And these gems of pure thought:
Excuse me, but LTTE's tiny boats don't carry a huge amount of supplies. They can also be found and sunk. But once Karunanidhi-Mugabe gets his shipping lane in place, it will be easy for LTTE to tap into that traffic stream for their own benefit. It will be easy for the Tigers to derive great benefit from this.

What the hell would you need a frigate to chase a light boat with? Do you see the US coastguard chasing cigarette boats run by drug smugglers using frigates?? If you provide a stream of commercial traffic through that area, then LTTE will be hiding in it, JUST LIKE THEY ALREADY DO WITH FISHING BOATS FROM TAMIL NADU.


So the solution for security is to eliminate the law-abiding traffic, remove and starve everyone except the terrorists from the area, so that one can conveniently nuke them as they sit there waiting to be nuked. Wonderful thinking again. I hope they implement this in Hyderabad and Bengalooru. Would work wonders for the traffic problem too. This is why I log on to BRF.

Just FYI, there are things called "radar", "guns" etc. that tend to have limited range, and need heavy, stable platforms to operate with accuracy, and stay in an area for a long time. If you have a frigate in the area, you don't have to run for cover every time there is a thunderstorm on the horizon, and your guns can reach clear across to the SL coastline from the canal, and your radar can pinpoint every dinghy or fast inflatable.

As for the evil racist MK sending LTTE supplies from TN mixed with the legit traffic, what's stopping him now? Chennai-Jaffna is a lot more direct than Rameshwaram-Talaimannar and then up to Jaffna. Why not put the supplies and terrorists in ships going around the east coast of SL, or the south coast of SL, so that they can be conveniently off-loaded near Batticoloa or Galle, instead of having to be confined to these coastal boats?

Right now, the LTTE know that if they run their small boats at high speed into the shallows around the Sethu, the IN cannot reach them, and the SLN, anyway, are mostly just targets. It takes too long to launch a helicopter and send it after them, and anyway that is a bad idea.

I do hope you do some thinking b4 posting so that I don't inadvertently embarass u in public (which course won't happen unless you think about the posts, so no worry there). Cheers.
Last edited by enqyoobOLD on 21 Sep 2007 19:23, edited 2 times in total.
Tanaji
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Post by Tanaji »

I love the temple idea as well with the project going forward.

Fat chance of it happening.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Well, Tanaji, I am a lot more optimistic about such things. In India, negotiations on large projects occur in somewhat convoluted forms, but ultimately, greed wins. So the Opposition looks for ways to attack, and carefully avoids the factual websites and reports of the actual projects, bringing in "scientists" and "experts" on the basis of their pompous credentials, like "Dr. Puneesh Taneja, Deputized From ISRO", or Kalyanaraman, who actually has excellent credentials in economics of how to spend huge amounts of money on huge projects, or "V. Sundaram, IAS (Retd), Former Collector In Charge of SSC Project at Tuticorin Port Trust" as he takes pains to inform us on his articles (IOW, he did nothing to move the project ahead..).

The GOVT., as ppl point out here, ALSO avoid the factual websites etc., and go for the lowest forms of argument - insults against religion, race, north/south etc., to appeal to the dirtiest atavistic fears of the population. Both strategies translate to votes from their respective vote-banks.

The good side is that the project goes ahead, with the workers relatively sheltered from both sides.

Eventually, there is a face-saving compromise where everyone can declare victory. That's the stage that I am shooting for - all this other stuff is pure Go-Pu. Baksheesh all round. Think temple, monument, airport, malls, museums, high-speed rail, hotel development, sea-walls, free fishing boats, schools, IITs, IIMs, bridges, even the occasional road or two so that the ribbon-cutting ceremonies can go ahead. And for the mass Jathas, plenty of liquor shops, and MAYBE, even a few public toilets.
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Post by SaiK »

yes.. thats a brilliant idea.. the whole project is assigned to a govt heritage maintenance team, and award the the "ramayana bridge" restoration project. Of course, they need some $billion to video graph the whole place, plus construct underwater museum to show structures, perhaps a special see through top submarine ride for visitors or walk through under the sea like they have in pearl harbor.. or even with better tech, and build a massive temples that beats raja raja chola periods by height, weight and designs, plus, make a giant bridge, err a small canal under the new enriched ramayan bridge, [small meaning that can allow uss nimitz size + 1 : compared to the gigantic structure of ram temple that is to come], and more importantly, replace/restore the coral reefs along back etc.

It could have been a tourist spot well thought out and spent.. money invested would be returned back from religious travelers visiting rameswaram., perhaps provide a direct flight from varnasi to rameswaram or a bullet train from there... all makes sense, in a culturally well lit society.

though we can make money to invest, but ..
Where do we go for the brains... that has/being drained to western countries?
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Post by rgsrini »

N3 wrote:
Sure, the utter bigotry exposed, has to be fully exploited. But it would be a bad mistake to throw out the project along with that.

MK shot himself in the foot using his stinking mouth. Even if RSS is communalizing it, he is the one who needled the ASI through his surrogate "TRBaalu". If he does that and hide behind "free speech" (doubtful if indian constitution allows provocation in the name of free speech) provided by the constitution, then he has to be prepared to face the consequences.

Look at what happened. His daughter's house got attacked... 2 poor souls unrelated to this got murdered, he has successfully managed to offend millions of people (if not 100s of millions of people) and he continues to make it worse by calling Ram a drunkard... ask for his engineering certificate (as if every other builder 1000s of years ago had an engineering certicicate... The only certificate this idiot has ever got in his life is his marriage certificate and that too is questionable considering he is illegaly married to 3 women at the same time).

IF the project suffers, I wouldn't blame RSS for this. As you say, they have been trying to communalize for many years now. What happened. The project did proceed further. It is 100% due to MK's ego, stupidity and arrogance.
Last edited by rgsrini on 21 Sep 2007 20:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SwamyG »

IF the project suffers, I wouldn't blame RSS for this. As you say, they have been trying to communalize for many years now. What happened. The project did proceed further. It is 100% due to MK's ego, stupidity and arrogance.
He charges his base supporters, it enrages VHP/BD/RSS folks; they in turn rile up their supporters. KK goes "See, I told you!", and goes on to rile DK folks in TN. BJP sees an opportunity it jumps in. JJ plays a cautious waiting game, knowing that it is only matter of time TN folks elect her back again.

The typical aam-aadmi goes like "Raman andan yena, Ravanan andan yena" (tamil, english translation: "What matters if Ram or Ravan rules - it is just going to be the same".

I talked to a friend who just visited Madras, I asked him how/what is the reaction of public - 'are they all talking about the infrastructure development and Sethu issue". He said "nope, everybody is just going about their business as usual".
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Post by shaardula »

inspite of what the media and theorists would like us all to believe, hindus donot line up just because RSS and BJP is peddling a theory. kunchi is an example of this, even when RSS & BJP lined up, so many folks in SI, in the north cauveri, krishna and pennar basins, with kunchi lizards on their walls, did not budge, because manufactured consent was that there is more than what we know. On the other hand if they see too much nonsense from the other side, they will line up behind RSS simply because they are the only ones with organization to take the battle to the other side.

sanjay is prolly is stretching fear theories, but it is also fact that there is too little opposition to MuKa line of thinking in TN for the comfort of most people in the rest of the country. Nobody asking, so what if Ramar was from Ayodhya? A lot of folks south of krishna have settled in TN, so what? Lot of people have bought into the idea that just because they stay in TN they are some sort of ultra pure race. even as a linguistic classification, and there are more Dravidians in the rest of SI than TN. The cradle of dravidian civilization has always been the krishna basin, with or without the glories of written history. TN is just one of twigs in its southern branch, even if the one with the most leaves.
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Post by rgsrini »

Lot of people have bought into the idea that just because they stay in TN they are some sort of ultra pure race.
I have lived in TN through most of my early years and I have been at the receiving side of it through out my stay. However, I have not seen even one person (not exagerrating here and I accept that I haven't seen all of them :) ) in TN who believes that they are some sort of "ultra pure" race. It is all in your mind man...

A majority of the masses believe that "Aryans subjugated dravidians" and the dravidian parties exploited this to the hilt and united everyone under the banner of "anti-brahminism" to overthrow congress. Also, TN governments have alwas felt that the state never got fair representation in the center. not any more after the coalition governments came to picture. None of the investments came its way, none of the infrastructure came its way, not even its films/actors/mucisians were given awards, its players were not given fair chances in the sports (including cricket), its language was suppressed... and a lot more. This feeling has reduced a lot now-a-days in the past 15 years.

So, IMO, no "ultra race" feeling here.
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Post by SaiK »

yeah.. aryans subjugated dravidians, and the fools at helm i.e, kazhagams are now subjugating the dravidians.

the problem is these kazhagams are based on no principles that have cultural linkage.. they are spawned of entities after rifts between earlier entities.. a derogation for the TN system itself.

people have no clue as well.. as the larger is in the subjugation list... what do you call millions of minnows move? where their leaders or whoever in the front what he sees. The leader sees its Bu!!sh!t, the whole mass in the list see it as well., its a gay bag!~ where most the DMK theorists lives.

even military setup has rooms to use brains.. not in political parties in kazhagam setup.. where everyone either follows a stupid path, or a path to create a new stupidity. This is the bottomline of all corruption as well in TN.

We just don't want to get there.. no!.
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Post by indygill »

This entire concept "Dravidian" is modern and is evolved by the western thinkers. Supporter of so called Dravidian classification should be first asked to prove it scientifically that they are even a distinct "race" to begin with.

Vedic Dravids are central Indian tribes not south Indian.




the British Raj exaggerated differences between northern and southern Indians beyond linguistic differences to help sustain their control of India.

Dravidian people refers to populations who speak languages belonging to the Dravidian language family

It was adopted following the publication of Robert Caldwell's Comparative grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian family of languages (1856); a publication which established the language grouping

However over seventy three languages are presently listed as Dravidian

----------------------------------

Richard McCulloch (who advocated Racial separatism) said that only the people of Central India belong to the Dravidic race while the South Indians are Veddoid

Kamil V. Zvelebil has suggested that the proto-Dravidians of the Indian subcontinent arrived from the Middle East, and may have been related to the Elamites,[16] whose language some propose be categorized along with the Dravidian languages as part of a larger Elamo-Dravidian language family.

Some scholars like J. Bloch and M. Witzel believe that the Dravidians moved into an already Indo-Aryan speaking area after the oldest parts of the Rig Veda were already composed (see Bryant 2001: chapter 5)
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Post by rgsrini »

This entire concept "Dravidian" is modern and is evolved by the western thinkers. Supporter of so called Dravidian classification should be first asked to prove it scientifically that they are even a distinct "race" to begin with.
The thread is deviating. I just wanted to clear up the misconception of "ultra race" theory. Bact to Setu please...
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

rgsrini wrote:A majority of the masses believe that "Aryans subjugated dravidians" and the dravidian parties exploited this to the hilt and united everyone under the banner of "anti-brahminism" to overthrow congress. Also, TN governments have alwas felt that the state never got fair representation in the center. not any more after the coalition governments came to picture. None of the investments came its way, none of the infrastructure came its way, not even its films/actors/mucisians were given awards, its players were not given fair chances in the sports (including cricket), its language was suppressed... and a lot more. This feeling has reduced a lot now-a-days in the past 15 years.
To be fair everyone in India seems to have someone else to discriminate against, even if for a day.

I have to say that this feeling always simmers, but it is also connected to the Tamil Hot Blood. Around here they call it "Pandi Munni iraguthu". Its a combination of Stubbornness and rage. The best english translation would be going 'berserk'. It is definitely considered a valid emotion. The idea is to terrify the other side with your emotional violence. Maybe even just how insane you are.

Ravan was ultimately condemned for his lack of control over his rage. But this not considered an offense around here.

Things that may seem pointless to others get magnified to humongous proportions, the smallest loss of 'manam' can back you into the point of no return.

The reason I say all this is that there are little items that can cause much anguish around here.

- First Sethu is not a national project. It was and remains a dream of Tamils alone. Money being important, please note that of the 2,500 crore project cost, less than 400 crore is from the central govt. Rest is from state government, TN ports and State agencies likely to benefit. The state could easily forgo the central component.

- Second, I would love to see as much concern when other holy sites of Hinduism are developed. Where was this outrage when the Sardar Sarovar flooded one of the holiest rivers the Narmada. Where was the outrage when the Tehri dam was built flooding holy Baghirati. Just for your reference Ram also traveled the river Bhagirathi and praised it holy waters and the Sons of Pandu washed their sins in this river. There are several more rdams in construction on this river.

- Third do you not trust Tamils to take care of the hindu holy sites. Whats with this belief we need to to prove anything to anyone. The Tamilian leaders do see more than just a hint of racial bias here. The portrayal of Dravidian's are barbarians and thugs who wantonly challenge the gods.

- Fourth. I reiterate all kinds of precautions and options were considered before this particular alignment was chosen. The Ramar Sethu WAS carefully considered and minimal MINIMAL changes were planned on specified route. Far FAR less than a 300 Meter high Dam and Kilometers long reservoir

- Fifth had this been a project in OH say Gujarat with Modi in charge you think there would be this hysteria, would Modi have hesitated a heart beat to advance his state.

- Sixth, I have to toss it out here, All those Tam Brahm's in Dilli who are showing up on TV are doing a complete disservice to Tamilians. Esp. that traitor Subramaniam Swamy. He will sell his mother if the price was adequate. They are whipping up the national sentiment against their own state, calling them Ram Drohi's of all things.

- Seventh you remember that piece of the Sethu that is now in lanka. Originally the maritime boundary of TN included much of that water. This territory was ceded to lanka by the central government in 1974 over the heated objection of TN. Most of it was fishing rights but part of it was the presence of Sethu. For the longest time the state refused to gazette the order, till AMMA, that greater protector of the holies, ceded it away in her first innings. The Dravidian leaders have refused to accept this and the have sworn to bring it back some day. From the rest of the nation silence. To this day lanka shoots and kills the fishermen who visit the area, even using mortar shells recently, undoubtedly destroying parts of the Ram Sethu. Where was this national outrage then I wonder.

Ultimately science has repeatedly confirmed that there is NO man made artifact to show that the structure was human built. Just as there is little or no proof that Jesus existed and walked in Jerusalem which has been completely repaved by the way, and where huge excavations continue, or that the ark of the covenant existed or that Budha was born in Lumbini. This does not seem to weaken the faith of the people involved.

The only logical solution is to build the sethu with a large appropriate yagna, ask for Ram's blessing, recover the material, build a shrine to house it and maybe do the glass bottomed boat thing.
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