Religion Thread 2

[G Subramaniam]

WWW.GO2SOUTHASIA.ORG
The International Mission Board

One article is titled, “Uttar Pradesh: vast state is epicenter of ‘lostness’ in India.â€

[G Subramaniam]

WWW.WAYOFLIFE.ORG
Titled, “Hinduism’s Pagan Practices,â€

[G Subramaniam]

WWW.TRUTHANDGRACE.COM
Summary of website – This is a review of other religions and beliefs.
Website creator/sponsor – It is part of The Bible Web Ring, which is a ministry promoting Bible
study and growth around the world.
Hatred conveyed by website – Under its “Hindu Index,â€

[G Subramaniam]

APPENDIX IV – INDEX OF DEROGATORY
TERMS USED AGAINST HINDUISM
atrocity – 24
curse/cursed – 24, 26
darkness – 18-19, 29
demon/demonic – 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29, 32
devil – 16, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 32
dirty – 16
evil – 26, 32
false – 15, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 28
filthy – 16
heathen – 19, 22, 25, 26, 31
hopeless/hopelessness – 18, 26, 31
lost – 17, 18, 19, 26, 32
murderous - 17
perverted – 16
satan/satanic – 15, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29, 32
sin/sinful – 23
witchcraft - 32
wrong – 14, 29

[G Subramaniam]

Hatred Directed Towards Hindus
Notwithstanding the considerable efforts of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Simon
Wiesenthal Center (SWC), American Jewish Committee (AJC) and other groups such as the
Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) in combating online hatred, focus on hate sites against
Hindus has lacked thus far. Perhaps the sole previous effort was collaboration between the SWC
and the Hindu American Foundation, an effort which resulted in the inclusion of websites
promoting hatred against Hindus within the SWC’s annual online hate report, “Digital Hate and
Terrorism 2005.
--
Overview of this Report
The focus of this report is to identify and analyze websites that target Hindus and their religion in
the firm conviction that, if left unchallenged, such websites perpetuate hatred at best, and breed
violence at worst. It exhibits a myriad of websites found to contain hateful content towards
Hindus and their beliefs and also reveals the individuals and groups sponsoring these sites. This
report is intended to serve as just the beginning of an annual campaign by the Foundation to
highlight hatred against the Hindu community. While this report focuses on online hatred, future
versions will also encompass hatred exhibited in other media, such as television, print, and
recordable media.
The methods generally used to degrade Hinduism are: 1) categorizing Hindu rituals and
traditions as “devil worship,â€

[G Subramaniam]

WWW.CBN.COM
Summary of website – This website is a compilation of daily news stories impacting the
Christian world, programming on the various CBN outlets, and other features.
Website creator/sponsor – Pat Robertson and the Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN), a
multi-media non-profit organization which broadcasts to nearly 200 countries and also offers a
round-the-clock telephone prayer line.
Hatred conveyed by website – Chief among CBN’s programs is “The 700 Club,â€

[Kumar]

G Subramaniam,

Thanks for posting a lot of info regarding the hatred spread about the hindus/budhists by the evanjihadis.

One wonders though, if hinduism is so "satanic", "devilish" and involved in the worship of "demons", then shouldn't it be the hindus going around spreading hatred about people of other "God inspired" religions? Also shouldn't it be hindus & budhists who should historically have had perpetrated the largest genocides in the name of their religion?

But historical records of hatred & mayhem point completely to the other side! I would think that any devil worth its salt would not like to tolerate true divinity being worshipped anywhere.

So what gives? Which side is truly demoniac here?

[G Subramaniam]

This is only a small sampling
And not just the evanjehadis
The above report shows a lot of mainstream catholic and protestant churches, probably 70% ( southern baptist + pentacostal + catholic )
of xtian churches are involved

Remember Paul Courtwright's Ganesha's trunk as penis
This has been picked up and used by these sites
Hence it is important to back such initiatives such as text book reform

It is shocking that so many churches so deeply believe in satan and demons

[Vishy_mulay]

Are there any movements in Church to really understand the Eastern religions? Detailed analytical evaluation which can be used effectively for spread of Gospel? The overall reading makes me laugh by what EJs have done to denigrate Hinduism (IQ of 55). These groups are not the problem and can be counter effectively. The EJs involved in detailed analysis and its use in social engineering are what worries me. That's the area which needs through study and strategies to counter it. my 2 cents.

[svinayak]

Are there any movements in Church to really understand the Eastern religions? Detailed analytical evaluation which can be used effectively for spread of Gospel? The overall reading makes me laugh by what EJs have done to denigrate Hinduism (IQ of 55). These groups are not the problem and can be counter effectively. The EJs involved in detailed analysis and its use in social engineering are what worries me. That's the area which needs through study and strategies to counter it. my 2 cents.

All these are 300 years of study of eastern religions during colonialism. It has reached global proportion now with an interconnected world in the 21st century.

[svinayak]

First row: Obverse and reverse sides of the Indian coins (Rs. 2) minted in 2000.

Second row: Obverse and reverse sides of the Indian coins (Rs. 2) minted in 2006.

The National symbol of India
(The 3 lions from the hoary Ashoka Chakra)
has at long last been removed

This is the major change being made in India without the consent of the people.

[Raju]

All these are 300 years of study of eastern religions during colonialism. It has reached global proportion now with an interconnected world in the 21st century.

And this is what they understood ?? Or they spew crap to prevent others from learning anything, and they just believe whatever the sarkari version or the church version spouts ?

[Kumar]

Acharya,

There is something fishy and disturbing about the 2006 coin. Are you absolutely sure that these are real coins in circulation?

P.S.
Arun_S, thanks for the images of the East India Company era coins showing icons from hinduism.

[svinayak]

Yes they are real coins

[Johann]

Are there any movements in Church to really understand the Eastern religions? Detailed analytical evaluation which can be used effectively for spread of Gospel? The overall reading makes me laugh by what EJs have done to denigrate Hinduism (IQ of 55). These groups are not the problem and can be counter effectively. The EJs involved in detailed analysis and its use in social engineering are what worries me. That's the area which needs through study and strategies to counter it. my 2 cents.

The Anglicans and Catholics are as far as I know the only Christian denominations who make a serious attempt at inter-faith dialogue outside the Semitic faiths.

An organised and continuous effort is the is the World Congress of Faiths based in London
http://www.worldfaiths.org/

Its roots are in liberal Anglicans attempt to build bridges between the Semitic and Dharmic traditions.

Of the Dharmic religions the only one the Vatican has had prolonged and serious discussion with is Buddhism - Mahayana, Theravada and Zen (ie Tibetan/Thai/Japanese) which continues.

The newer, largely American 'non-denominational' churches are at least at this point not really interested in ecumenical interaction even within the montheistic/semitic faiths!

The fact is that the majority of Christian ecumenical efforts are aimed at two things

- dealing with major conflicts in the real world they find themelves caught up in- mostly tackling anti-Semitism, reducing conflict between Christians and Muslims.

- undoing historical splits within Christianity - getting Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, etc back together.

[sanjaykumar]

But historical records of hatred & mayhem point completely to the other side! I would think that any devil worth its salt would not like to tolerate true divinity being worshipped anywhere.

So what gives? Which side is truly demoniac here?


How dare you ask impertinant questions?

[SaiK]

boy! those coins needs to be confiscated ... this is against gross injustice to the constitution. sope, the italian congregation has taken over "true hinduism" with the cross symbol.

i am really amazed.. Acharya, i am thinking still that is a dream coin in somebody else's brain. i need to pinch and wake up if its India that is allowing a cross symbol on its mother-hood coin?

revolution will happen, rather evolution now. new mantra needed. the Gandhi family is a disgrace for taking that name. sorry, its fish bone.

[TSJones]

Calvin,

how many churches in the US do you believe would welcome me if I walked in wearing a t-shirt proclaimining "jesus sucks"?

Oh, this is wonderful reasoning. Why would anybody want to go to church if they actively don't like Jesus? It would only be for agit-prop. Is there some level of intolerance here that proves your illogical point?

At a church I used to go to (I have since moved away), one Sunday a month we had pot luck supper after service. A local bum kept an eagle eye out on when these were scheduled. He didn't miss many. Anyway, the church secretary in turn, kept an eagle eye on him and made sure he didn't wipe out any of his favorite foods so that others in the church didn't get any (for instance potato salad and chocolate brownies). It was quite hilarious to see this dirty bum under her direct supervision in the buffet line.

The only time and I mean the only time that I ever saw a problem was when the chuch children's day care and kindergarten had a problem with some Jewish parents. They really wanted all reference to Jesus and our religion removed from the classrooms. The problem was, the church's Sunday school classes were also held in the same classrooms. And at any rate, the church took great pride in its Christmas celebrations for both Sunday School and Day Care. So, we said no. There may have been some parents who took their kids out of Day Care and Kindergarten over the matter. But that's life in a church.

The real problem for most protestant churches in my view, is that someone is always angry at the minister and wants to fire his ass. *Every* church I have ever been a member of has had this problem. I'm not talking about child molesters or drunks. I'm talking about a minister who may not have celebrated Mother's Day enough in his sermon on that particular Sunday. Dead serious.

So guys, go ahead with yer little discussion here, but I want you to know it was the evangelicals who were at the forefront of the fight against slavery in Britain and in the US. So, no, they're not going to give up on the Dalits or the tribals anytime soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce

[CPrakash]

[

The National symbol of India
(The 3 lions from the hoary Ashoka Chakra)
has at long last been removed .

err.. whats that emblem besides the no. "2" .. looks like the ashoka emblem to me..

[SaiK]

turn/flip ...r head!

[sanjaykumar]

So guys, go ahead with yer little discussion here, but I want you to know it was the evangelicals who were at the forefront of the fight against slavery in Britain and in the US. So, no, they're not going to give up on the Dalits or the tribals anytime soon

Yep just show them newsreels of Hurricane Katrina.

[svinayak]

So guys, go ahead with yer little discussion here, but I want you to know it was the evangelicals who were at the forefront of the fight against slavery in Britain and in the US. So, no, they're not going to give up on the Dalits or the tribals anytime soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce

Why did they not take up against British colonization of India and Indians at the same time when they were at the forefront of the fight against slavery in Britain and in the US.

Is it not an anomaly?

[bala]

On the entry of non-believers in Hindu temple, wasnt Madam Sonia (a Catholic) allowed entry/darshan in Tirupathi Temple (hinduism holiest and most wealthy temple). Also Presidents of India have visited the shrine despite the religion being other than Hinduism.

Here is another attempt to squash freedom of ideas and criticism of Islam. And the punishment is the crudest and vilest form, demonic/pagan in nature i.e. head of the women on a platter.
UP Muslim body offers five lakhs for Taslima’s head

Maulana Tauqeer Raza Khan, national president of the All India Ittehad-e-Millat Council, has offered Rs 5 lakh for the head of Bangladeshi writer Tasleema Nasreen. Khan accuses Nasreen of blasphemy and says her only hope lies in apologising and burning her books.

“She has persistently written against the Shariat. She does not deserve to live,â€

[sivab]

So guys, go ahead with yer little discussion here, but I want you to know it was the evangelicals who were at the forefront of the fight against slavery in Britain and in the US. So, no, they're not going to give up on the Dalits or the tribals anytime soon.

TSJ:
Yeah thats right. Once evangelicals got the slaves, they gave a damn about segregation, prejudice and racial discrimination. Segregation, prejudice and racial discrimination is alive and well today in all parts of US of A. If you think evangelicals can solve prejudice, discrimination, bigotry, hypocrisy etc. keep dreaming. These vices will exist as long as humans exist. Show me a country in the world where it doesn't exist.

Comparing slavery with dalit/tribals is apples and oranges. India doesn't have laws against Dalits/tribals, never had. On the contrary, it has affirmative action for them. BTW, affirmative action in India started long before civil rights/affirmative actions in US of A. IOW, US of A was deep in legal segregation shit when India started affirmative action. The societal situation of dalits/tribals in India today, is the same situation faced by any black/minority person discriminated against in US of A. Can you handle that truth? Shocking to see the behavior of society in utopian US of A is same as in primitive India, isn't it?

You once wrote "what the **** you guys care about dalits". If you/evangelicals really care about dalits/tribals, solve the ills in US of A before preaching to others. Then you will have credibility. I will be the first one to convert if you ever succeed in US of A.

[Calvin]

It doesn't appear that we are able to get past the "torn shirt open fly" stage.

Please note that the temples that I pointed out are among the most visible temples in the dharmic tradition. These places would be on par with Mecca, St. Peters in Rome, Westminster Abbey in London etc.

The argument that these places are "private" is not quite tenable. A "public space" is generally defined as a place that is open to the public whether or not on payment of money.

The argument that churches restrict access to non-dharmic peoples on the basis of the fear of destruction may have some merit, but in the context of restrictions on the basis of caste, one wonders if this is an post-facto justification.

At the end of the day, the only reason to bring up this particular aspect of the religious practice was to highlight the differences between the discourse among (evidently) highly learned individuals and the reality experienced by the majority of the practitioners. How is this different from the Islamist dualism in regard to the meaning of "jihad"?

[Rakesh]

It is shocking that so many churches so deeply believe in satan and demons

Every Christian believes in Satan and demons regardless of their sect (i.e. Anglican, Pentecostal, etc). The existence of Satan is just as valid in Christianity as the existence of God. You should'nt be shocked

Are there any movements in Church to really understand the Eastern religions? Detailed analytical evaluation which can be used effectively for spread of Gospel? The overall reading makes me laugh by what EJs have done to denigrate Hinduism (IQ of 55). These groups are not the problem and can be counter effectively. The EJs involved in detailed analysis and its use in social engineering are what worries me. That's the area which needs through study and strategies to counter it. my 2 cents.

To answer the your first question...No. There really isn't any need to. You either believe in Jesus Christ or you serve the Devil.

Mathew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Mammon refers to wealth, covetousness, greed, etc. Evangelists see this as a clear sign that they need to save the world, for not everyone in the world believes in Jesus Christ. They have taken the wrong approach to spreading the Gospel. That approach is termed as being overzealous. Many take it even a step further and use the Gospel for their own personal agendas i.e. economic or political control come to mind.

And this is what they understood? Or they spew crap to prevent others from learning anything, and they just believe whatever the sarkari version or the church version spouts?

Ever heard of the following...In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King

It is not an issue of preventing others, but rather they see the desire to spread the Gospel to all corners of the globe. Everything else is secondary and inconsequential to them.

[sanjaykumar]

It doesn't appear that we are able to get past the "torn shirt open fly" stage


Not really we are still waiting for the evangelical answers to what differentiates their religious edicts from a cult. There may well be no validity to the Hindu religious experience as you have suggested.

The problem for evangelics (if I may be permitted a neologism, conjures up angels) is that the Hindus are not interested in converting them to their fold. Thus Evangelics need to provide more rigorous evidence of the validity of their faith. For most thinking people "because my book says so" is not very meaningful.

[Rakesh]

For most thinking people "because my book says so" is not very meaningful.

For Christians, that is the only meaningful thing to say. Does that mean Christians are not thinking people? Biblical support of that is found in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So the next question that is asked is what is the word of God and that is the Holy Bible and thus the words of the Bible are inherently true. This is a matter of FAITH.

[sanjaykumar]

the desire to spread the Gospel to all corners of the globe. Everything else is secondary and inconsequential to them.


This is the key, Rakesh. There is very much in Christianity to admire as most Hindus will admit, including such as Mohandas Gandhi. But I must say this is the fly in the unguent. Why do they believe this? I ask that in all sincerity.

[Rakesh]

Sanjay, just a better way of doing quotes is actually write the BBCode when you are quoting someone. Thanks.

[sanjaykumar]

For Christians, that is the only meaningful thing to say. Does that mean Christians are not thinking people?

You need to examine the history of ideas in Europe to answer this one.

[Rakesh]

This is the key, Rakesh. There is very much in Christianity to admire as most Hindus will admit, including such as Mohandas Gandhi. But I must say this is the fly in the unguent. Why do they believe this? I ask that in all sincerity.

Interesting Question...why do they believe this? Well for that you have to start all the way back to the beginning with Adam and God's relationship with him. In the Biblical story of creation, God created the earth and everything around it. The seas, the air, the birds, the animals, the flowers, the hills, the valleys, etc were all created by Him. Now he desired to create someone to oversee all of this and thus he created man.

Genesis 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Now as much as God gave man dominion over everything on earth, God had dominion over man and thus man was required to obey God. But he did not, as he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil after God explicitly told him not to. Eve (his companion) gave him to eat the fruit from that tree (she ate it as well), after she was tempted by the Devil. Thus Adam & Eve disobeyed God and they were thrown outside the Garden of Eden.

The above portion of the creation story is VERY IMPORTANT to understand, as once they were removed from the Garden of Eden...then they were subject to death & disease which befalls all of us. Adam & Eve never had to worry about that, as they were created perfect human beings in the image of God (image refers to God's mode of thought and not his physical makeup). But not anymore.

But although God removed them from the Garden of Eden, he still loved his creation. But because God is a Holy God he could not save them while they were sinners (to truly understand what Holy God means, one will require to read through a number of sermons). But to make a long story short, basically God and Sin do not mix. Thus he devised a plan to send his son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross...so that he could be resurrected at a pre-determined time. This is equally important to understand, as it is only through the death & resurrection of Christ, can the sinner be saved from the torment that awaits him/her (i.e. hell, where the unbeliever will go through a form of suffering beyond human comprehension and that the suffering will be eternal).

Now we can discuss in length about Adam, Eve, Devil, Garden of Eden, the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, the Son of God which can more clearly explain the very short brief that I have given above, but that is for a different time. Basically that sin (i.e. the sin of disobedience) is upon every man, regardless of whether he/she is born into a Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Parsi, etc family and as it states in Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Being born a Christian does not guarentee eternal life.

Thus the Christian sees it upon himself/herself to go around the world and preach the Gospel. There is nothing wrong with that per se, however it is the evangelists of present (Benny Hinn, Billy Graham, etc) that have twisted that message to suit their own agendas. And that is wrong. I know there may be many questions from the above, but that is the brief gist of what the Christian believes. All Jesus Christ said was to preach the Gospel to all corners of the world, he did not ask to remove national icons from the back of coins

Next time you see an evangelist ask him to explain Matthew 22:17 (For many are called, but few are chosen) or John 17:9 (I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine) or John 3:18 (He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God). If God really loved everyone, then why are there people who are condemned? Is throwing someone into the lake of fire & brimstore (as explained in Revalations, the last book in the Holy Bible) for eternity an act of love by God? And if God does not love everyone, then isn't your sermon Mr Evangelist a complete & utter hoax? But who really wants to the hear the truth anyway Mr Evangelist?

[sanjaykumar]

It is a pleasure interacting with you, Rakesh.

Back to my tongue in cheek mode. I guess us heathens can only hope for an timely Rapture.

[Rakesh]

As a postscript to what I typed above (if you are looking for an understanding to the meaning of Holy God in the Christian faith) then click on the link below;

http://www.prca.org/sermons/romans11.33.htm

[Alok_N]

Calvin,

how many churches in the US do you believe would welcome me if I walked in wearing a t-shirt proclaimining "jesus sucks"?

Oh, this is wonderful reasoning. Why would anybody want to go to church if they actively don't like Jesus? It would only be for agit-prop. Is there some level of intolerance here that proves your illogical point?

compare it to EJ's traveling to India and saying "your god is false" ... getit?

[TSJones]

Well, you can quote Dutch Reformed church but they can get a little bit carried away.

Here is what I try to live by although I have not achieved this to my own relationship with God and I remain a miserable sinner:

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"

28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

May His blessings be received from the Words.

[bala]

Quoting Genesis 1:26 as the assumption of Christian faith has a dilemma. The Jews also believe in the text of Old Testament, and Sadler believes that Christianity usurped this core text/knowledge/religion, were the original creators of the assumption. Where the christian faith and jewish faith differ is that Jesus is not son of god, perhaps a prophet. Two sets of people with the same assumption but a different conclusion.

On the Hindu side, the question of the above assumption is itself fraught with so many theories. What is God and how can it be described and what is the relationship of God with man. The Hindu Philosophical concepts of Advaita, Dwaita and Vishist Dwaita provide three various answers on this topic.

[Shwetank]

I've decided to start numbering my questions cause so many came up and hopefully help in referencing on any discussion that might take place on them.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

1.) wait so non-believers are already condemned, so what is the point in converting me if I'm already condemned? It's not my fault, I was lost etc. but now I want in, but I'm already damned so is it to late?

2.)Also, if I convert, what happens to my parents who died before I could see the light? Are they condemned? Does this mean all my ancestors and all people in the world who didn't convert in their lifetime but couldn't because they never came in contact with a missionary and did not hear of the Lord's creed before their death are condemned? So all those generations and majority of the World's people who were unlucky enough to be born far away from the land Christians initially lived in so that it would take those christians many centuries to reach them are condemned? But they did not even get a chance for salvation, they did not get a chance to choose .......

The muslims make up for this by saying that God..sorry Allah *.. sent messengers to all lands (including I believe a she-camel) and the poeple just didn't listen to the messengers and so are damned. Even those who believe in re-incarnation can give an explanations by saying it was past sins which caused those people to be born in an unlucky place. I am wondering what Christianity's views are on this.

3.) * (wait is it only allowed to use those Arabic names, so is using english word God blasphemy?)

4.) Another topic I have always wondered on is how do you differentiate between a true messenger and a false one. one of the links posted about those hating hinduism says that the Devil disguised himself as a messenger of light! But then if the Devil can do that how do you know who is who?? maybe you can reason and use your gut feeling. but then reasoning is not defined and opens the mind to the devil like many assert and using gut might mean you are giving in to your beastly emotions being controlled by the devil. Islam also has the instance where the Devil sneaks into one of Moh. (PBUH)'s visions, but if he can do that how do you know which visions is true and which is not? Is it something you feel? maybe so but how are we in today's world to know it?

Christians point to miracles as proof. Moh. (PBUH) said miracles are used by tricksters himself while some claim he did split the moon but there are contradictions. Plus both sides believe that false religions also use tricks and magic. This happens in Moses' story (I don't know much about other ones). We can determine Moses seems to be the true one because his mircales upstage the Egyptians and seem to be truly grand and something that human tricksters can't do (splitting the sea is hard to upstage). So are we to believe in the one who can do something more extragavent?

5.) Coming back to Islam and the she-camel, how were the people to believe she is a messenger? If it is true that there are devils and demons who play tricks then would I not believe that it was in fact a demon if a camel suddenly started talking to me?

6.) Why does God only conduct these pivotal moments of when messengers arrive and prove their holiness (assuming there is some way to recognize a true messenger if you have a pure heart ) at certain points in history? not thousands of years before or after? (ofcourse assuming that you believe there was Earth thousands of years before Christ)

7.) What if books are altered or teachings perverted as many claim and muslims claim of christians belief that Jesus was God? How does one determine which is true and which is altered by the damned? Does one determine only the community one is born in?

8.) Why does God send messengers to one small land in what eventually turned out to be a much bigger earth with many more people ? (again more about Christianity). Why not announcing in a big booming voice across all lands in all languages? perhaps this was the only place which had pure hearted people left. but there were also clearly sinful people so it was just the few individuals. but why only few individuals left in these few places and not the rest of the world anywhere at all!

9.) If there are other people doing good work with sincere heart why are they still damned if they do not acknowledge one particular God or use one particular phrase or even particular ritual or get immersed in water in some particular way? They knew no better and are being faithful to their knowledge. They are born into their community and think it is better too. How are they to know which one is better except by chance where you are born? Maybe if they have pure heart and intentions they will start getting doubts in false creed and truly want to seek with open heart they will find true God. But isnt this what Pagan religion does? isn't this considered dangerous by Xtianity and Islam? Some say this leaves the heart open to be entered by Devil.

10.) Why does God not create system where all those who truly seek and learn (kinda like science) arrive at same conclusions and true realization? (again sounding too much like Hinduism now, the idealized version that is not the one practiced by most as Calvin pointed out).

11.) Following up 10.) is it possible to have a pure heart and honest character no matter what circumstances you are born in ? If you do not have guidance from a particular creed and are constantly bomarded by pagan practices from birth and you ingrain them, do you become damned and prevented from achieving that pure heart state where you open up to God's love? But it was not your fault but again where you were born...

12.) Related to 11.) are there some people who are inherently born more spiritual than others ? If so why would God create someone with more pure heart than others ? Some people are said to be evil from early age, but at that early age children don't know any better? Why do chlidren get punished for sin and lead to rest of life as sinner if they don't have proper judgement? or do they have full judgement at early age? Yes you can say as long as at later age they ask for forgiveness with all their heart but what if they are possessed by a demon? then they can't even open their heart up to ask for forgiveness? They made the decisio to let demon at a early age but what if their judgement wasn't good enough then?

13.) If you are possessed by a demon (what are the various denomination's views on this? let's compile them) do you get a brief moment at transition from mortal world to other where you have your free will again can ask for forgivesness? If not then that means unless you are successfuly exorcised you are damned once you are possessed and can't hope to recover. This is especially scary if you were a kid when you were possesed.

14.) Why does God create people with so many different abilities which can't be made up for by hard work? to spice things up a bit? Some things like severe mental disorders don't even allow the child to understand the teachings of the creed or know what is going on so how can that person get salvation? Is that person automatically given salvation? Why then have that sould created at all if it was only to suffer and not go through the trial of free will etc.? Or you punishing the parents for sins or something? But again cruel for the child from an all-loving God.

15.)Why create different races and some who are obviously physically superior in some aspects and also seem to have no less ability in other attributes either? I don't buy the adaptations argument, there are different kinds living in the same kind of climate as well pointing to a more random thing than some planned out stuff. How do supremacists deal with the genetic differences they perceive?

16.) How does the church deal with wars it started and one's that continue to occur cause Jesus clearly said turn the other cheek and those that kill by the sword die by the sword. Has the Catholic church declared those that launched the crusades were wrong and bad Christian (including former popes)? What is their views on the crusader who said kill them all and let god sort them out? This is clearly against Jesus' teachings who as far as I know didn't say something like how Krishna said where it is sometimes necessary to fight for good. Rather I would have thought Christians would be more like Jains. Maybe the barabaric and imperial impulses of the Europeans and Romans were too much.

The Biggest one for Me:
17.) Also how do all religions deal with why we have to go through this whole trial of struggling with right and wrong and stuff. If God is all knowing why did he create Adam and Eve since he would have known they would sin and go through all this stuff? Why give free will when He knew it would cause so much trouble (I think in the comic Spawn it is revealed that God created man and Satan was the one to impart free wil) Why did God create the angels if he knew Satan would fall? Why not pre-emptively remove those evil thoughts as the Americans love to do? It seems to be for amusement of God like ancient gnostics suggested or just some dream experiment (but God already knows it's results so why create experiment!!) This all knowing aspect of future and everything always seems problematic to me. Why do anything in the first place then? A limited God who is not all-loving or all-powerful seems to better help explain things.

sorry if these things do not belong here, I will remove many of them if needed.

[Calvin]

is it because there is no god, and mankind "created" god?

[Alok_N]

is it because there is no god, and mankind "created" god?

I would say yes, but then TSJ would jump up and down and say "ahaa you are an athiest" ... that is not so ... an agnostic belief admits the "unknown unknown" ...

so, I would qualify that and say that "all gods known to manking today are inventions of mankind" ...