"Christian" Fundamentalism in West

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Jul 2011 06:35

Theo_Fidel wrote:OT but...

No such thing as pure Hinduism.

Still up to Hindu people to choose how they treat each other and others. No magic bullets.

Time to duck.

True! and that is the reason why the two proselytizing versions of the revealed traditions are so scared of Hinduism. It is the AQ/early Mao/ of ideological "cellular" guerrila. Each Hindu can be a spanner in the works for the conversion-submission wallahs - and he/she doesn't need a mollah/imam/aytaollah/grand-ayatollah/bishop/archbishop/cardinals and popes to upset apple carts.

But is that relevant Theo ji! you are too precious to be lost in the cross-fire that will start!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jul 2011 07:20

Theo_Fidel wrote:OT but...

No such thing as pure Hinduism.

Still up to Hindu people to choose how they treat each other and others. No magic bullets.

Time to duck.

+1 on the first point.

The second point, however, is not entirely correct. People can chose how/what they want to be and reap the karma, but are expected to be dharmic in their dealings with other living and non-living beings.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jul 2011 08:23

RajeshA wrote:
Arjun wrote:Logic will lead to the right answer based on the initial axioms you start out with....If you don't start out with a basic premise that killing innocent civilians is never justified, this is what you will end up with. I wonder what kind of warped mind can think of countering hate ideologies by mass killing of the innocent !
Arjun ji,

I guess, it depends what one considers the ideological focus - the human, life as such, social order, nation, tenets of a book, cultural heritage, the planet.

In war, national security or civilizational mission could be considered paramount, and human life may not get the same level of consideration. If he was thinking only at level of threat to his cultural heritage, unwilling or incapable of weighing this together with other moral dimensions, than considerations of human life may have simply become irrelevant to him in comparison. Single-mindedness to achieve one's mission, can lead one to lose one's moral compass.

I agree, and the ideological focus is what I would consider the key initial axiom that is the starting point for the logic.

In fact, it is clear that Brevik is probably a high-IQ and keenly logical individual...But then, given the goals and objectives of Islam and Muhammad (which is that Islam should be the dominant religion globally) - all the tenets of Islam also follow logically from that principle. So in that sense, one could say that Islam is also a highly logical religion aimed at achieving its core objectives.

Does that mean that Hinduism is not a logical religion, given the lack of competition-suppressing techniques that either Islam or Christianity use? I would say Hinduism is also highly logical - but oriented towards its core objectives which were somewhat different. (a) Global expansion was never a central axiom or objective of Hinduism as it was for Islam and Christianity & (b) Hinduism placed more emphasis on the avoidance of bloodshed which is why it developed a polytheistic culture of accommodation, rather than the exclusivist doctrine that inevitably leads to bloodshed.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 25 Jul 2011 08:50

The desert religions are in fact Id fixated. It is about man's fall, man's salvation, man's obligation to glorify his totem god, man is given dominion over the Earth including heathens. A more pernicious narcissism was never invented. Oslo is no different and no exception to two thousand years of the most notable gentleness.

Indooism seems more a process with man buffeted by karma until he gets the point.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 25 Jul 2011 08:55

Arjun wrote:Hinduism placed more emphasis on the avoidance of bloodshed which is why it developed a polytheistic culture of accommodation, rather than the exclusivist doctrine that inevitably leads to bloodshed.

ArjunJi - agree on all your other points, but polytheism/pantheism precedes pacifism and both aren't related. This is true not only of sanatan dharma, but also true of christianity (whatever little pacifism it ever exhibited). Eg. Quakers and Amish are strictly monotheistic and yet pacifism plays a large part in their beliefs. Whereas Vatican which mobilized and encouraged the crusades/conquistadores/inquisitions promotes beliefs that would be considered borderline polytheism by other denominations.

I'm not sure what were the circumstances under which Indic culture developed "avoidance of bloodshed" as central principles. Perhaps advent of a stream of thoughts that culminated in Buddha and acceptance of those principles by Ashoka ?

In pre-pacifist India, bloodshed was justified only on the basis of well defined dharmic principles - basically to undo injustice. But not so with the Abrahamic system - a difference of beliefs was justification enough for bloodshed.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 25 Jul 2011 09:10

Arjun wrote:(a) Global expansion was never a central axiom or objective of Hinduism as it was for Islam and Christianity & (b) Hinduism placed more emphasis on the avoidance of bloodshed which is why it developed a polytheistic culture of accommodation, rather than the exclusivist doctrine that inevitably leads to bloodshed.

a)True, It was not. It also did not restrict itself from being accepted or adopted. Most Hindus may believe that, the Hindu ideas are meant for the Indian subcontinent. But ideas cannot be stopped. Superior ideas will always spread far and wide. If it's the ideas of Communist/Capitalist principles in the 20th century. It will be the Dharmic principles in the 21st century.
We Are All Hindus Now
America, a Hindu nation?
So the ideas of Hinduism is spreading far and wide, just because of it's openness and freedom that it provides to believe or not to believe in god or in anything but just by doing Dharma or righteous things in life.
b) Rather than say avoid bloodshed, it may be better to say to avoiding starting a bloodshed. But if Adharma exits and if all peaceful ways fail, Hinduism asks to fight to protect Dharma ensuring righteousness in the society and the victory of Truth.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Jul 2011 09:20

Hunt for Britons linked to Norway killer Anders Behring Breivik
A hunt for possible British accomplices of the mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik is under way after it emerged that he began his deadly “crusade” after meeting other Right-wing extremists in London.

Before he carried out Norway’s worst terrorist atrocity, Breivik typed out a chilling 1,500-page description of his plans, written entirely in English and datelined “London, 2011”.

He signed the document “Andrew Berwick”, an Anglicised version of his name, and described his “mentor” as an Englishman he identified as Richard.

Scotland Yard counter-terrorism officers are now trying to establish whether Breivik visited London in recent years and whether he was part of a wider network preparing to carry out similar attacks.

The 32 year-old boasted that he was just one of up to 80 “solo martyr cells” recruited throughout Western Europe who were ready to follow his example of trying to overthrow governments tolerant of Islam.

He said he regarded himself as a successor to the medieval Knights Templar, and claimed to have been recruited at a meeting in London in April 2002, which was hosted by two English extremists and attended by eight people in total. ...

The bomb, he made clear, was merely a diversion designed to draw police away from the real target, the Labour Party summer camp on Utoya. He even discussed his reason for disguising himself as a policeman — to cause “confusion and hesitation”.

But it is his detailed descriptions of meetings with British accomplices that has led to fears he may be part of a network of Right-wingers intent on mass murder.

Scotland Yard’s domestic extremism unit is trying to identify the seven other people who attended the inaugural meeting of the “European Military Order and Criminal Tribunal” of the “Knights Templar” in London in April 2002.

He wrote: “The order is to serve as an armed Indigenous Rights Organisation and as a Crusader Movement” and said the session was hosted by an English Protestant. Another English extremist was also present as well as French, German, Greek, Dutch and Russian delegates.

He also said an Englishman became his mentor. “He was the one who first described the 'perfect knight’ … let’s call him Richard.”

He added that most of those at the meeting “were successful entrepreneurs, business or political leaders”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eivik.html

Breivik in Masonic regalia:

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jul 2011 11:04

Arjun wrote:(a) Global expansion was never a central axiom or objective of Hinduism as it was for Islam and Christianity & (b) Hinduism placed more emphasis on the avoidance of bloodshed which is why it developed a polytheistic culture of accommodation, rather than the exclusivist doctrine that inevitably leads to bloodshed.

With reference to both ManishH and Uddu's comments on the above points -

a) Global expansion was never a central objective for Hinduism in the past which is why it neither developed a missionary attitude nor took recourse to the competition-suppressing techniques that Islam / Christianity did. This might have been OK in the past when there was enough room for growth for all religions, but in today's world -attack (ie taking market share away from other competitors) is necessarily the best form of defense...so this attitude needs to change.

b) I agree partially with both of you in that Hinduism never regarded a different God (or faith system) as a reason for bloodshed. Hinduism's open architecture meant that a different means to salvation could yet be accommodated within the framework of Hinduism...this eliminated the bulk of the reason for bloodshed but of course does not eliminate bloodshed on account of other factors.

ManishHji, I would disagree with your formulation that delinks exclusivist ideologies and large-scale violence.

My contention is that an exclusivist ideology that is simultaneously expansionist will necessarily result in conflict and large-scale violence at some point. To make this more specific,

Two exclusivist and expansionary religions competing --> civil war guaranteed at some point.
Exclusivist & expansionary religion competing with non-exclusivist religion --> No civil war, but violence and bloodshed cannot possibly be avoided
Only non-exclusivist religions competing --> minimal chance of conflict & violence

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2011 11:24

Anders Breivik & Europe's blind right eye

What the Hindu is saying is that RSS is responsible for Norway's attack.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Jul 2011 11:34

Aditya_V wrote:RSS responsible for Norway attack- the Hindu

MacAulite pseudo secularite Praveen Swami like that Isalmist A.G Noornai masquerade their ideological moorings with pendatic mumbo and jumbo and hair-splitting technical legalities.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jul 2011 12:18

The fascination of connecting the european movements to Indian Hindu groups is hard to explain.
But this is a sociology marker which the British introduced before independence on Hindu India. This has been expanded by western trained Indian sociologists for 50 years and this author is working on the same trend. But this kind of false analogy with India being partitioned due to religion is totally bankrupt

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 25 Jul 2011 12:35

I don’t know if this is relevant but I’ve accessed the “manifesto” published by the Norwegian psychopath who massacred so many people a couple of days ago:

http://www.kevinislaughter.com/wp-conte ... ndence.pdf

The manifesto is provocative and hate filled, so moderators please feel free to remove my post and the link if required (it might prove disturbing reading for members of the Muslim community).

From an Indian perspective, there are plenty of references to Hindus/India which would probably please a lot of people in the (extreme?) right wing of Indian politics.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2011 12:44

The essence of Christianity is what Jesus said when asked which of the commandments was the most important.He replied,"love God and love your neighbour as yourself". One of the ten Commandments is also "thou shall not kill".The dichotomy between Christianity and so-called "Christian" states has been with us for 2000+ years.When Roman emperor reportedly Constantine experienced a vision on the eve of battle- a sign in the sky,and after painting it in the shields of his soldiers and achieveing victory,added Christianity to the list of approved Roman religions and "Christianity" became a state religion.The religion had all the power and patronage of the Roman state with all its wealth which had its inevitable influence,where religion and state combined forces and the successors to the Roman Empire in Europe used the combination politically leading to the Crusades of yore.The modern day Crusaders are no better than their forbears who waged war and killed in the name of religion.Did not Dubya Bush describe the Iraq War as a "crusade"?

Watching the poignant scene of the King and Queen of Norway weeping along with other mourners at the memorial service in Oslo's Lutheran cathedral ,brought a lump in one's throat.But how many Norwegians wept when Ghaddafi's daughter was killed in NATO bombing raids,or when other innocent civilians including children were killed in so-called "collateral damage" in the illegal Libyan War,where Norway is an active participant? I keep on lamenting the fact that to most wetsrn nations "terrorism" is only an issue when it happens in their countries,NOT when it happens in India,victims of Paki terror for decades -a terrorist state still supported by the west with weapons and aid as it has been doing so for decades,not when it happens in Islamic countries who are considered "fair game" for "turkey shoots" to test out the latest western weaponry and steal their resources,or other countries in the developing world like Sri Lanka,also victims of terrorism,where Norway (like Britain too) allowed the LTTE to set up base in its own country and did a biased job of so-called peace monitoring in the island.

Perhaps it is time to reflect again upon thse immortal lines from John Donne's poem,"...send not for whom the bell tolls,it tolls for thee...".The full poem is given below.

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 25 Jul 2011 16:15

CRamS wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:RSS responsible for Norway attack- the Hindu
MacAulite pseudo secularite Praveen Swami like that Isalmist A.G Noornai masquerade their ideological moorings with pendatic mumbo and jumbo and hair-splitting technical legalities.

These people should be sued for defamation.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jul 2011 16:54

The parallels are obvious, but it is extremely foolish to underline them

It may be extremely foolish also not to underline the obvious. And that too for security reasons. The depth of hatred for Psecs and assorted Pseudo liberals is growing day by day not just in Europe, but in India too. Just read some of the remarks in TOI or Rediff itself to Digvijay's comments etc. Not underlining the 'obvious' and focussing elsewhere is Psec trait and it presents a danger. Every intelligence agency worth it's name will be going through exactly this threat scenario right now and developing some sort of procedures to tackle it. Let's not get too emotional on this.

Importantly we've been reading reports for years or decades after hundred plus Indians were massacred, that India must do something about addressing the cause..why should then not Breiviks cause be discussed then? Europe, Norway, US never said

The parallels are obvious, but it is extremely foolish to underline Kashmir

Got the point?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 25 Jul 2011 17:16

In the Bible, Jesus says - "Be Still and Know,that I am God"
Had I been a Christian by birth, I would have adhered to that and followed Jesus.Its a statement of clarity and authority.It cannot be challenged.
He never said "I will establish a church,and appoint popes,and then you follow them and based on their recommendations,I will accept you".

However I was born a Hindu,so I learnt other things.

In the Gita,Lord Krishna clearly says "Abandon all forms of religion and surrender unto Me".There is an authentic voice behind this statement,a personality, not any impersonal concept of an imaginary god. Krishna says it with complete clarity, and it is proving to be true today.

As for me,due to my research into truth, I conclude that I will follow Krishna, I will abandon all forms of religion, I will dance and sing the glory of Krishna.Peace and Love flow from Krishna's words, and if we even once try to understand the depth of this statement (Abandon all forms of religion) we will be closer to ourselves. we were not born with a cross around our necks, or a taleban style beard, nor were we born with a tilak on the forehead.All these externalisations are in every practice of religion, and their significance continuously erodes with time.We were told that we are "Hindus,Sikhs,Buddhists,Christians,Muslims" we were not told who we really are. All these labels cover our true identity.These labels we must shed.

What is significant is the understanding of why we need to abandon all forms of religion. Religions are a vehicle, and we need to get off this vehicle, to walk the last mile into the light. Imagine a huge field,that is infinite,and has a centre, and we(millions of us) are heading towards it in cars. We will crash into each other if we do not stop at a pre-marked periphery near the centre and get off the car and walk the last mile.As we walk we can share experiences, and come to a warmer understanding of the truth,and embrace each other and laugh at mistakes.

Swami Vivekananda once said "Let there be as many religions,as there are human beings on earth!" It was a wise statement, each individual has a point of view, and it is equally valid.Simultaneous multiple assertions of the same truth in different ways, enhances the experience of it.

I will,definitely as a carefully considered opinion, desist from condemning other paths, as I know in the deepest wisdom given to me,that all paths lead to the same place.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jul 2011 17:26

^^^ Sanjeev, I agree with you. And I think of Hinduism as a complete "Philosophy of Life" and not a religion. But that is my choice, because Hinduism leaves you with many choices, which makes Swami Vivekananda's statement very vaild.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 25 Jul 2011 17:31

Christianity started off as a protestant politically charged "revolutionary" movement - and that was how it attracted the alienated and marginalized of Roman society - gained popularity, and was found useful by a section of the elite entangled in intra-elite competition for power. As is typical this elite saw the potential of Christianity in mobilizing the "masses" behind their search for personal power against competing elite - and in time gave it an imperial reformulation. This imperial version emphasized "Pax" and submission to "authority" - as needed by imperialism

About the convincing the Romans part, it took lives away from millions of Christians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs. I dont think anyone nowadays do that way and it is being fashionable

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 25 Jul 2011 17:37

I am beginning to feel that this is another example of British inspired terrorism, just like LTTE, Kashmiris, Pakistanis, etc.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 25 Jul 2011 17:40

Symontk, the Romans persecuted the Xtians in the beginning because they thought of them as the same as Jews, and the Jews were giving them hell in Palestine. Constantine later adopted the religion as official when it became obvious that there were a large number of Xtians in the empire.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jul 2011 17:48

the xtian right wing in europe is not centred in britian, but british nazis have joined it eagerly - and english is ofcourse the lingua franca. this movement is far more dangerous than the street thugs with flags, these are the psychos who blow up railway stations like bologna and do these shooting sprees, etc. every european nation has members, but its more of a north euro thing

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jul 2011 17:58

Aditya_V wrote:RSS responsible for Norway attack- the Hindu

First of all, Hindu's head line is different. I am reporting this post to Admins as we don't need unnecessary arguments on Al-Hundi or RSS.

Secondly inspite sending thousands of pamphlets, the so called 'Prem' did not receive any response from Yindoo brummins and baniyaaas as Hundi says.

We do not (yet) see such actions by hindu right, so it is not fair to unnecessarily connect
external issues with Hindus and Hinduism, however close those ideas may be. Hindu majority of india still holds the responsibility of punishing Christian and Islamic extremism with GoI. We can't say the same about the others.

Finally, Europeans and other nations such as China have past history of genocides in the name of their ideologies. It was German Nazis (Christians by faith) who resorted to fascism and genocide. They do not become Hindus just because they called themselves aryans and wrote about it. It is same as Al-Hundi calling itself a Hindu paper where as its entire editorial staff are communists to the core and have their masters in China.

So chill my friends

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jul 2011 18:03

harbans wrote:
The parallels are obvious, but it is extremely foolish to underline them
It may be extremely foolish also not to underline the obvious. And that too for security reasons. The depth of hatred for Psecs and assorted Pseudo liberals is growing day by day not just in Europe, but in India too. Just read some of the remarks in TOI or Rediff itself to Digvijay's comments etc. Not underlining the 'obvious' and focussing elsewhere is Psec trait and it presents a danger. Every intelligence agency worth it's name will be going through exactly this threat scenario right now and developing some sort of procedures to tackle it. Let's not get too emotional on this.

Importantly we've been reading reports for years or decades after hundred plus Indians were massacred, that India must do something about addressing the cause..why should then not Breiviks cause be discussed then?

I am quite aware of how BRF feels towards the P-secs and the parallels are obvious. Would you wish to suggest that because there are parallels, there are many BRFites who may take recourse to similar actions? And because you don't want to suggest that, there is no need to underline the parallels.

I never said the Norway shooting should not be discussed. I said "we should not adopt him, or glorify him, or for the moment imply similarity of ideology! We discuss him in the European context and what it means for Europe!"

harbans wrote: Europe, Norway, US never said
The parallels are obvious, but it is extremely foolish to underline Kashmir
Got the point?

Sorry, I don't get the point!

Which parallels would have been obvious in case of Kashmir, that could have haunted Europe, Norway or US, for which reason they would decide to not discuss Kashmir?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Jul 2011 18:25

NYT, Scott Shane:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/25debate.html

The revelations about Mr. Breivik’s American influences exploded on the blogs over the weekend, putting Mr. Spencer and other self-described “counterjihad” activists on the defensive, as their critics suggested that their portrayal of Islam as a threat to the West indirectly fostered the crimes in Norway.

Mr. Spencer wrote on his Web site, jihadwatch.org, that “the blame game” had begun, “as if killing a lot of children aids the defense against the global jihad and Islamic supremacism, or has anything remotely to do with anything we have ever advocated.” He did not mention Mr. Breivik’s voluminous quotations from his writings.

The Gates of Vienna, a blog that ordinarily keeps up a drumbeat of anti-Islamist news and commentary, closed its pages to comments Sunday “due to the unusual situation in which it has recently found itself.”

Its operator, who describes himself as a Virginia consultant and uses the pseudonym “Baron Bodissey,” wrote on the site Sunday that “at no time has any part of the Counterjihad advocated violence.”

The name of that Web site — a reference to the siege of Vienna in 1683 by Muslim fighters who, the blog says in its headnote, “seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe” — was echoed in the title Mr. Breivik chose for his manifesto: “2083: A European Declaration of Independence.” He chose that year, the 400th anniversary of the siege, as the target for the triumph of Christian forces in the European civil war he called for to drive out Islamic influence.

Marc Sageman, a former C.I.A. officer and a consultant on terrorism, said it would be unfair to attribute Mr. Breivik’s violence to the writers who helped shape his world view. But at the same time, he said the counterjihad writers do argue that the fundamentalist Salafi branch of Islam “is the infrastructure from which Al Qaeda emerged. Well, they and their writings are the infrastructure from which Breivik emerged.”

“This rhetoric,” he added, “is not cost-free.”

On the other hand, Lala Lajpat Rai is called a communalist for this series of articles in 1924:
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/prit ... _1924.html

Since sometimes I do feel uncomfortable at the level of rhetoric on BRF, I do want to put on the record my endorsement - speaking as a Hindu now - of what Lala Lajpat Rai wrote:

[E] At least this much credit must be given to the Hindu Nationalists: that their efforts have been principally instrumental in bringing the country near[er to] Swarajya than it would possibly have been otherwise. The Muslim educated community, with a few honourable exceptions, had in the past and until only a short while ago, consistently opposed these efforts. The Hindus do not want any special favours. All they ask for is justice and fair play. If the present situation is in any way unfavourable to the Muslim community, they will be only too willing to agree to any changes which the Muslims desire, subject only to one condition. They will not willingly and voluntarily be parties to any compromise or arrangement which will make real and lasting unity impossible.

For God's sake, don't threaten us with Jehad. We have seen many Jehads! For the last twelve hundred years we have heard that cry every day of our national existence. Yet, Jehads have not suceeded in killing us, and God willing, no threat of Jehad will influence us by one hair's breadth in our determination to continue to live. We are prepared to subordinate our communal life to national life. For united national existence, we would do anything, but we shall not submit. to threats or to coercion. It is true that Muslim distrust of Hindus can successfully block the avenues of Swarajya, but brother Muslims! don't forget that active Hindu hostility may also be productive of some harm to the Islamic world. Away, then, with these threats and distrust. Let us live and struggle for freedom as brothers whose interests are one and indivisible. Let us live and die for each other, so that India may live and prosper as a Nation. India is neither Hindu nor Muslim. It is not even both. It is one. It is India.

[F] To the Hindus, I will say, "If there are any among you who still dream of a Hindu Raj in this country; who think they can crush the Mussalmans and be the supreme power in this land, tell them that they are fools, or to be more accurate, that they are insane, and that their insanity will ruin their Hinduism along with their country. For God's sake don't listen to them and don't be guilty of patricide. You have no one outside India to help you. You are like a lonely waif in the world, and your position is extremely delicate. Be sensible, and show your readiness to listen to the dictates of justice, fair play, and patriotism. Be even ready to make sacrifice, if such sacrifice does not stultify you or nullify your desire for nationhood. Give up your pride and listen to reason and common-sense. That is the only way to salvation."

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jul 2011 18:33

Would you wish to suggest that because there are parallels, there are many BRFites who may take recourse to similar actions? And because you don't want to suggest that, there is no need to underline the parallels.

Not exactly the way i put it. If there are parallels i.e, a feeling of disgust against liberals and psecs in particular, by discussing that there are people out there who have a murderous thought against them is foolish?

Can you confidently say that this heinous act is a one off, and actually there is no other person that are not pissed off at libs and Psecs to do such a thing? Sorry to say, but the truth is the Police are just investigating this very aspect that you say is foolish to discuss here on a strategic forum, that is dedicated to protect citizens of this country of whatever caste, color, religion, liberal or conservative ideology.

I said "we should not adopt him, or glorify him, or for the moment imply similarity of ideology! We discuss him in the European context and what it means for Europe!"

No there is no one here glorifying this inhuman person and his act one bit. But on his ideology of removing Islam from Europe doesn't have parallels here? What have you been righting 1500 pages on for months on end and Ayeshas being bought out and becoming Indic and stuff? He's as pissed as you yourself and many posters here on Europe's/ India's Islamization/ Pakistanization, Rajesh Ji. His ideology rings many bells..very loud. That is the truth. And there should be no shame in discussing that aspect..and that's why i mentioned:

The parallels are obvious, but it is extremely foolish to underline Kashmir

I just took your own sentence and replaced Ideology with Kashmir. Remember 26-11, after the slaughter of 200 innocents, what Millibund said? K has to be solved to avoid this. Sure it pissed off a lot of people here and elsewhere. Norway did the same regards SL when the LTTE made multiple attacks on hundreds of civilians. Did they feel your sensitivity and say Kashmir should not be discussed?

In that sense maybe i am being insensitive to libs and Psecs in discussing the similarity in ideology here. But the fact is his cause is gaining ground. And by discussing the threat to Psecs and Libs and bringing out the factor that the anger against them is so intense, that loonies like this guy may be around and planning the ultimate is wrong? Now did you get the context?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Jul 2011 18:56

harbans ji,

the point I wish to make is that we should distance ourselves from his thinking and his act, because we don't wish to convey that BRF fosters people, who could develop similar motivations and act similarly. One way of distancing is by simply rejecting any parallels in ideology, be it the truth or not.

We do this not necessarily out of sensitivity towards Norwegians, though it would not be bad, but simply because we don't want p-sec or gullible Indians in taking liberty in grouping you or BRF together with a mass-murderer.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 25 Jul 2011 19:04

About the convincing the Romans part, it took lives away from millions of Christians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs. I dont think anyone nowadays do that way and it is being fashionable
the Romans persecuted the Xtians in the beginning because they thought of them as the same as Jews, and the Jews were giving them hell in Palestine. Constantine later adopted the religion as official when it became obvious that there were a large number of Xtians in the empire.

Its OT, but the last sentence, Roman persecution of Christians was there for 3 1/2 centuries. The Jewish rebellions were pretty much over by AD66. Bar Kobba revolt of AD132 was just a last stance. We can get back to the main agenda

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 25 Jul 2011 19:18

Harbans,

what exactly is your point??? just make it. don't beat around the bush. all these examples of this and that person making some comment is just distraction. what exactly are you trying to say? that Hindus should shut up b/c otherwise it might foster a guy like Breivik?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jul 2011 19:24

A_Gupta ji

Good pointers. But the parts you highlighted do not do justice to the underlying context. I would have highlighted the following

The name of that Web site — a reference to the siege of Vienna in 1683 by Muslim fighters who, the blog says in its headnote, “seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe” — was echoed in the title Mr. Breivik chose for his manifesto: “2083: A European Declaration of Independence.” He chose that year, the 400th anniversary of the siege, as the target for the triumph of Christian forces in the European civil war he called for to drive out Islamic influence.

On the other hand, Lala Lajpat Rai is called a communalist for this series of articles in 1924:

Point to note - this is before partition. One can only wonder what LLR would have said.

To the Hindus, I will say, "If there are any among you who still dream of a Hindu Raj in this country; who think they can crush the Mussalmans and be the supreme power in this land, tell them that they are fools, or to be more accurate, that they are insane, and that their insanity will ruin their Hinduism along with their country. For God's sake don't listen to them and don't be guilty of patricide. You have no one outside India to help you. You are like a lonely waif in the world, and your position is extremely delicate. Be sensible, and show your readiness to listen to the dictates of justice, fair play, and patriotism. Be even ready to make sacrifice, if such sacrifice does not stultify you or nullify your desire for nationhood. Give up your pride and listen to reason and common-sense. That is the only way to salvation."

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Jul 2011 19:58

Devesh, if you didn't understand you could ask me in a more civil manner rather than put assumed words in my mouth or your foot in yours. Or is civility too difficult a task? Where have i mentioned that Hindu's should shut up? I am arguing completely against that line of thought..if you can see.

the point I wish to make is that we should distance ourselves from his thinking and his act, because we don't wish to convey that BRF fosters people, who could develop similar motivations and act similarly. One way of distancing is by simply rejecting any parallels in ideology, be it the truth or not.

I disagree with that notion, specially the one bolded. The ideology which this killer expressed is pretty much mainstream. The ideology of many killers is always a mainstream one in most cases except extremely pathological ones. The only way to really disassociate with the ideology is to acknowledge

1. 'Right' wingers only are against Islamization in Europe or India
2. 'Right' wingers are the real threat to Western or Democratic liberal values and not excluvist ideologies.

The views expressed by many anonymous persons on this forum are not BRF's, but the individuals. BRF only moderates many views and opinions. Every political party, religion, creed, caste has endorsed views that have fielded Killers swearing to that ideology. So the ideology and the act are separate except in a very few instances and direct doctrinal motivations.

I am only pointing to a clear danger, that hatred against the Psec and liberal is peaking slowly. It's visible across wide sections in the media through posts in TOI, Rediff and elsewhere in US and EU. Do you see what many are clearly seeing, a few targetted assassinations against known psecs and libs and you have created the quadri effect like in Pakistan, or Islam has created against people who draw cartoons and criticize the prophet. This incident is not a Timothy Veigh or Unabomber type of thing.

This incident is not so much about hatred against Islam or Islamization as it is against the Psec or liberal who allows Islamization to continue unabated. That is where i draw ideological similarity to happenings in India.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jul 2011 20:12

An empire thrived on religion,
spreading love thru crusades and inquisitions,
now wants to undo others’ thru atheism

A prophet enlivens Jihad,
he is unquestionable for having many followers,
another condemned to lunacy for being alone

O’ Hindu what did you do to this world,
for your inquiring mind saw the truth,
in a manner that no lunatic can fathom

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Jul 2011 20:35

RamaY: To point out something -

You have no one outside India to help you. You are like a lonely waif in the world, and your position is extremely delicate. Be sensible, and show your readiness to listen to the dictates of justice, fair play, and patriotism.

Isn't this the cry today on so many of the BRF boards, e.g., Unkil is not helping, Oirupe is not helping, Chipanda is actively working against, etc., etc., the cries for justice from India? Isn't there at least one post on each page of the TSP thread, the Pak. failure thread, and elsewhere that India stands alone in dealing with Pakistan?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jul 2011 20:48

That will be the case forever for Hindu india, assuming a non-Hindu india would not mind making an unequal alliance with USA or China or OIC.

That said, lot of water flew in Ganga since 1924.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Jul 2011 21:16

abhischekcc wrote:Symontk, the Romans persecuted the Xtians in the beginning because they thought of them as the same as Jews, and the Jews were giving them hell in Palestine. Constantine later adopted the religion as official when it became obvious that there were a large number of Xtians in the empire.

This is not entirely true. The Roman disapproval was in part due to a reluctance of Early Christians to follow Emperor worship (By that time Emperors were gods). And they were not really persecuted, just harassed and local populations executed for refusal to bow to the emperor. Christianity was also very popular amongst the slaves. Many Martyrs were slaves. Romans elites held this against them.

Those the Romans persecuted ceased to exist. Carthage for instance. Or the Assines at Masada.

Constantine came much much later. He was co-opted by the early church. A string of military victories helped. A myth of conversion on the road, Al la paul was the created to give him the divine touch.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Jul 2011 21:19

RamaY,

I wouldn't bring Brahmin into this conversation. destroys the worth of the poem. Whole lot of baggage there.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jul 2011 21:48

Theo ji

I changed it to Hindu. I will remove that post if it doesn't make sense

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2011 21:53

RamaY wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:RSS responsible for Norway attack- the Hindu
First of all, Hindu's head line is different. I am reporting this post to Admins as we don't need unnecessary arguments on Al-Hundi or RSS.

Does this violate terms of use? Why bring Predators on me? there is only a link to thier page even if headline is different, since I have not quoted thier message, all I have done is take a bit bit of liberty to excess amount of Liberty they have taken?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jul 2011 22:00

Aditya_V garu,

No personal issue here. We already have enough DDM to make such nonsensical ==s. Why making self-goals by adding more masala to them?

I will take back my complaint (I dont know how though) if you can edit your post.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Jul 2011 22:08

RamaY,

Makes a lot more sense now. In fact a lot more provocative as well.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jul 2011 22:09

Edited my post, what was your objection, I am a bit slow and do not get it?

a) I just posted a link to them, did not copy any words of thier article in my orginal post, then in that case then there would be copyright issue-
b) Lets face my headline was the whole point of thier artcle, or are creative liberaties open only for those supporting LET, Hurriyat, ULFA and Maoists ?