Small Arms Thread

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Mar 2011 07:26

Guar, That is called misfires. In ordnance a certain amount is expected to be misfires even in advanced countries. I think you are conflating issues. But bash on regardless.

ArmenT, I thought the OFB cartridge is slightly different so it cant be fired in M-16 type weapons while the INSAS can fire the NATO cartridge.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 21 Mar 2011 07:32

Funnily enough, the Army`s criticism seems to be limited to the INSAS. While my exposure to military info is limited, I have never heard much criticism of the Ishapore 1A1 (the 7.62 mm SLR which is a licence produced copy of the FN FAL) or its famous predecessors, the .303 Lee-Enfield (SMLE) or its 7.62 mm variant, the 2A1. Given that they were or are produced by the same organization, this seems to bear looking into.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Mar 2011 07:54

ramana wrote:Guar, That is called misfires. In ordnance a certain amount is expected to be misfires even in advanced countries. I think you are conflating issues. But bash on regardless.

Sirji,
My interaction with service personnel has been limited in this regard. But even from that, I was astounded at the mistrust they have for 9mm pistol/smg and 84mm RCL. You do not have to take my word for it, I am sure that you and many other forum members are more privileged regarding your acquaintance with IA personnel.

I am sure that they will tell you the same thing.

Hobbes wrote:Funnily enough, the Army`s criticism seems to be limited to the INSAS. While my exposure to military info is limited, I have never heard much criticism of the Ishapore 1A1 (the 7.62 mm SLR which is a licence produced copy of the FN FAL) or its famous predecessors, the .303 Lee-Enfield (SMLE) or its 7.62 mm variant, the 2A1. Given that they were or are produced by the same organization, this seems to bear looking into.

Where have I ever said that?

The main sources of takleef in small arms category seem to be 9mm pistols and sterlings.

In fact, I have come across many people who have greatly praised INSAS (specially for its weight and maintainability as compared to SLR). I have come across no one who has "heavily" criticized it. Aside from some quality control issues, the only "problem" seems to be that it is not AK-47. Seems like IA is getting partial towards 7.62mm. But even that is confusing, seeing that both Armed forces and Paramilitary forces are buying Tavors in big numbers.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Mar 2011 11:08

Sterling 9mm carbine is the most notorious of weapons....remember one specific instance - the security detail of a GOC in NE jumped out of their vehicles when the cavalcade had to stop because of closed railway crossing...one fellows sterling went off the moment he jumped out and hit the ground.....as some would say, "this is not good enough to even kill dogs".

But I don't know if that is OFB issue...

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 21 Mar 2011 12:42

rohitvats wrote:Sterling 9mm carbine is the most notorious of weapons....remember one specific instance - the security detail of a GOC in NE jumped out of their vehicles when the cavalcade had to stop because of closed railway crossing...one fellows sterling went off the moment he jumped out and hit the ground.....as some would say, "this is not good enough to even kill dogs".

But I don't know if that is OFB issue...

This is not a OFB issue, it's a Sterling issue. In the Sterling once its is cocked the breech block is held back from moving into the receiver by a small piece of metal and 'shaking' the weapon has a tendency to 'release' the breech block into the receiver and discharge the weapon.

One of my friends almost shot the foot of an instructor on the firing range because of this issue, the bullet hit the ground 10cm from the instructors foot. Lets just say that the instructor was not best pleased.

The only way around it is not to cock the weapon until you are about to discharge the weapon. The GOC's security detail should not have cocked weapons!! it could easly have gone off while traveling in the car with fatal consequences!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Mar 2011 19:35

Rohitvats there was a memorable story of a Britsh paratrooper being shot by his own Sten when the parachute jerked open during Normandy landings. The Sterling is a development of the Sten.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Mar 2011 20:22

Ramana,
I am very surprised at your confidence in OFB. In fact, you are one of the major reasons why I thought OFB was to blame for the 9mm pistol, carbine and 84mm RCL problems. I had posted about these problems an year ago and you had told me that the problems were because of "major" quality control issues. So, what has changed your mind? I get that sterling has design issues, but what about 9mm pistol and 84mm RCL?

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Mar 2011 02:58

The legendary 9mm carbine; my brother says the primary reason why one has to hold the magazine is it drops out if not held tight enough.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Mar 2011 04:56

S_Prasad wrote: Good stuff...looks neat too.

Any idea what the reaction of the IA was?/quote]

Is it designed for only 7.62 mm? Isn't 400 mts too short for 7.62 mm? I read that Khan saab was issuing 7.62mm in Afghanistan to overcome the short coming of M4 beyond 500 mts and is issuing 7.62 mm rifiles

All 7.62 mm ammo isn't alike. The M-14 uses the 7.62X51mm NATO round (also used by the FN-FAL) which is bigger and heavier than the Russian 7.62X39mm round fired by the AK-47 and this new Trichy rifle.
My understanding is:
7.62X51 mm - Long range but uncontrollable recoil in auto-fire mode
7.62X39 mm - Shorter range but controllable at high rates of fire.

S_Prasad · Post by **S_Prasad** » 22 Mar 2011 06:50

nachiket wrote:
S_Prasad wrote: Good stuff...looks neat too.

Any idea what the reaction of the IA was?/quote]

Is it designed for only 7.62 mm? Isn't 400 mts too short for 7.62 mm? I read that Khan saab was issuing 7.62mm in Afghanistan to overcome the short coming of M4 beyond 500 mts and is issuing 7.62 mm rifiles
All 7.62 mm ammo isn't alike. The M-14 uses the 7.62X51mm NATO round (also used by the FN-FAL) which is bigger and heavier than the Russian 7.62X39mm round fired by the AK-47 and this new Trichy rifle.
My understanding is:
7.62X51 mm - Long range but uncontrollable recoil in auto-fire mode
7.62X39 mm - Shorter range but controllable at high rates of fire.

Thanks for the post ...I was of the impression that they were using 7.62X51 mm in the TAR too.

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Mar 2011 08:13

There are other 7.62 mm ammo like 7.62x63 and 7.62x67 used in long range sniper rifles not to mention 7.62x54

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Mar 2011 10:12

nachiket wrote: 7.62X39 mm - Shorter range but controllable at high rates of fire.

Actually 7.62x39 mm. ammo wasn't that controllable on AK-47 either. That's why one of the improvements to the AKM added a slant compensator at the muzzle.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Mar 2011 10:25

ArmenT wrote:
nachiket wrote: 7.62X39 mm - Shorter range but controllable at high rates of fire.
Actually 7.62x39 mm. ammo wasn't that controllable on AK-47 either. That's why one of the improvements to the AKM added a slant compensator at the muzzle.

And that is why Trichy is claiming to have done a big improvement by having a 7.62 mm rifle being accurate with high rates of fire to 400m, the ak-47 7.62mm*39 bullet can travel farther but it has high recoil so very difficult to fire acurately for long distance.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Mar 2011 10:29

Well from what I understand the AK-47 series was never built to be an accurate weapon but a reliable one , I am sure Trichy can do improvement over it.

From people who use the Ak-107 they are known to be quite reliable and accurate over long ranges thanks to its balanced recoil mechanism.

Should add here no 7.62 version is available for Ak-107 only 5.54 and 5.56 for 108.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Mar 2011 12:00

India's new Future Infantry Soldier system.

jai · Post by **jai** » 22 Mar 2011 15:03

Hope they start deploying it soon.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Mar 2011 15:13

jai wrote:Hope they start deploying it soon.

This has been on show in various exhibitions for at least 4-5 years now. It appears to be a "concept" and not a specific program to re equip the army as far as I know. Like AMCA

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Mar 2011 16:58

Aditya_V wrote:And that is why Trichy is claiming to have done a big improvement by having a 7.62 mm rifle being accurate with high rates of fire to 400m, the ak-47 7.62mm*39 bullet can travel farther but it has high recoil so very difficult to fire acurately for long distance.

AK-103 they say, is as accurate as the M16A2/3. Please note that, the accuracy of AK rifle is not just because of the round, but the mechanism + the sights + the charging liver design etc.

At longer ranges, the 7.62 is more effective then the 5.56.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Mar 2011 17:23

koti wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:And that is why Trichy is claiming to have done a big improvement by having a 7.62 mm rifle being accurate with high rates of fire to 400m, the ak-47 7.62mm*39 bullet can travel farther but it has high recoil so very difficult to fire acurately for long distance.
AK-103 they say, is as accurate as the M16A2/3. Please note that, the accuracy of AK rifle is not just because of the round, but the mechanism + the sights + the charging liver design etc.

At longer ranges, the 7.62 is more effective then the 5.56.

Well more effective but difficult to accurately fire at 3 burst or continous fire. Also as stated before the 7.62*51 is more eefective at long range than 7.62mm *39mm.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Mar 2011 20:37

^^It is.

My point ended at AK-103 being able to address the accuracy issues of AKM.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Mar 2011 17:41

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/03/in ... -guns.html

The RFI specifies that the weapon should have an effective range of about 1,800-meters, a cyclic rate of fire of 450 rounds per minute and a barrel life of 10,000 rounds.

Note barrel life of 22 minutes.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 25 Mar 2011 19:37

i too noted it but when search it about barrel life, it is standard life span of barrel.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Mar 2011 20:09

sarabpal.s wrote:i too noted it but when search it about barrel life, it is standard life span of barrel.

I am sure you are right.

But the reason I mention it is that the people who do the firing will know this fact but many jingos on here who speak of aircraft/ships with thousands of rounds to cut foes to shreds do not always see that after those 10,000 rounds the barrel needs to be changed. That means barrels may have to be available for changing in the thick of battle, or else the gunner may be forced to use the gun sparingly - firing only shorts bursts when necessary. But that hardly falls in the class of firing thousands of rounds to cut foes to shreds. Assuming of course that the same logistics chain that brings him a barrel also has enough and more ammunition to spare.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Mar 2011 20:15

^^Shiv, while the above RFI is from IN, in case of IA, each LMG section has three men - who support the main gunner in terms of logistics with change of barrel being one of the critical tasks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Mar 2011 21:02

rohitvats wrote:^^Shiv, while the above RFI is from IN, in case of IA, each LMG section has three men - who support the main gunner in terms of logistics with change of barrel being one of the critical tasks.

Yes - I recall that now that you mention it. I also recall that the GSh 23 cannon is use and throw. It has a barrel life of 5000 rounds and fires at 1000 rounds per minute.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Mar 2011 21:12

^^^More than the life of the barrel, it is the temprature of the barrel on sustained auto-mode firing that is cause of worry for the gunners.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2011 21:25

rohitvats, Barrel life is directly dependent on the barrel temperature due to friction of the round as it passe through it. As temperature rises and more rounds are fired there is erosion ie wearing away of the barrel material that causes less spin as the rifiling grooves erode away. Hence becomes useless due to inaccuracy. So they are specifying a measurable qty for barrel life instead of vague requirement.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 28 Mar 2011 07:27

Politicos, babus buy Chinese weapons in Punjab
Only in India

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Mar 2011 18:36

http://frontierindia.org/album/files/20 ... -c-151.jpg

^^^ "Prahari" HMG fitted to new ICG boats. Should be locally produced version of NSV:
http://ofbindia.nic.in/products/data/we ... add_33.htm

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Mar 2011 08:19

rohitvats wrote:^^^More than the life of the barrel, it is the temprature of the barrel on sustained auto-mode firing that is cause of worry for the gunners.

I think they change barrels when it gets too hot and not when it is worn out, right?

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2011 08:29

^ Yes they 'cycle/swap' them until they get worn out; with the good old 'bren' the MG crew used to carry a spare barrel, same was the case with the Nazi troops for the only thing that ever failed in the legendary MG-42 was the barrel (1000+ rounds per minute

).

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 30 Mar 2011 12:13

^^^^
Yep, MG-42 is also the reason that the Germans were forced to invent Hammer Forged Rifling.

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 Mar 2011 15:42

Can anyone here comment on the effectiveness, merits or demerits of Ak-74U ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Mar 2011 18:08

koti wrote:Can anyone here comment on the effectiveness, merits or demerits of Ak-74U ?

koti, sorry we worst then newbie as far as small arms go but AK-74U is a pretty old late 70's design , they have developed a newer PP-19 submachine gun based on AK-74U , some nice pictures of PP-19-01 from Vitaly

PP-19-01 Vityaz

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 Mar 2011 19:28

Austin wrote:
koti wrote:Can anyone here comment on the effectiveness, merits or demerits of Ak-74U ?
koti, sorry we worst then newbie as far as small arms go but AK-74U is a pretty old late 70's design , they have developed a newer PP-19 submachine gun based on AK-74U , some nice pictures of PP-19-01 from Vitaly

PP-19-01 Vityaz

Thank You.
I was closely following the development and deployment of both pp-19 and pp-2000 in Russia for quite a while.

What I was actually interested in is the performance of the AK-74U in comparison with other sub-machine guns.
And also the effectiveness of its caliber in comparison with 5.56 NATO, .45ACP and 9x19 at SMG ranges from SMG or carbine type weapons.

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 Mar 2011 19:33

And I would have loved it if the Vityaz was chosen instead of the MX4

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 31 Mar 2011 23:06

koti wrote:And I would have loved it if the Vityaz was chosen instead of the MX4

how about the

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Mar 2011 23:16

Armen yeah and if I am not wrong our INSAS barrels are forged using the same technique, right ? (Iirc we imported the forging machines from Austria)

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 Mar 2011 23:28

Sandeep_ghosh wrote:
koti wrote:And I would have loved it if the Vityaz was chosen instead of the MX4
how about the..MP7

Ghosh ji.. Our MSMG is indeed a very similar to MP7. It would have been ideal.

None the less, if 9mm was the criteria, MP5 or Vityaz would have been better(IMO).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2011 19:43

ArmenT, For your blog.

Victor Hugo in his book Les Miserables, has Inspector Javert give the hero Marius a pair of small bore pistols called fisticuffs which he later uses in the book.

I haven't got a picture for it but from the description they fire a small caliber ball. Will look.

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Link to a blog with pics:

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/index.html

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Culverin:

ulverin

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Puckle gun:

Puckle Gun

An early machine gun....