Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

manish · Post by **manish** » 02 Aug 2010 15:53

Acharya wrote:Is the new terminal on the other side. I have not seen this

Yes. It is near the end where the ill fated Dubai-MLR flight jumped off into the ravine. The current terminal is the intersection of the two runways, at the highest point of the hill almost. The new one is adjacent to the newer concrete runway, at the opposite end. You get to see it when your flight takes off (heading west).

manish · Post by **manish** » 02 Aug 2010 15:55

Singha wrote:segregated level of arrival and departure (with pedestrian bridges and ramps from other areas to safety bypass these) are a feature of most civilized airports. bangkok , singapore, mangalore now, even the old mumbai...all except the clowns who designed the BIAL frontal area.

And to think that BIAL was designed by the TFTA Swiss. IXE, OTOH is an all AAI show!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Aug 2010 23:01

manish wrote:
Singha wrote:segregated level of arrival and departure (with pedestrian bridges and ramps from other areas to safety bypass these) are a feature of most civilized airports. bangkok , singapore, mangalore now, even the old mumbai...all except the clowns who designed the BIAL frontal area.
And to think that BIAL was designed by the TFTA Swiss. IXE, OTOH is an all AAI show!

Heard rumors that the BIAL design was originally a failed design that was bought on the cheap by the kanjoos swiss.

That is the only way to explain this shoddy disaster.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 03 Aug 2010 01:30

With GVK taking over ops. at BIAL , things are looking up. The first phase of terminal expansion is expected to start in Late september, this would entail expansion of the existing terminal on both sides and adding another 70% to the terminal size.

Plus a new terminal is expected to come up with a 15 million capacity expanding to 36 million gradually, this would happen in the next 4-6 years as a part of Phase II of BIAL development.

manish · Post by **manish** » 03 Aug 2010 11:24

Nihat wrote:With GVK taking over ops. at BIAL , things are looking up. The first phase of terminal expansion is expected to start in Late september, this would entail expansion of the existing terminal on both sides and adding another 70% to the terminal size.

Plus a new terminal is expected to come up with a 15 million capacity expanding to 36 million gradually, this would happen in the next 4-6 years as a part of Phase II of BIAL development.

GVK or someone similar (with enough 'muscle' to play in Indian RE/infra biz) taking over was always on the cards. BIAL is going to be worth gazillions of dollars when one takes into consideration the whopping 4500 acres land 'parcel' that came along with the airport concession.

The land is on a long term lease to BIAL (60 yrs IIRC) for around Rs. 12k/acre/yr. If the current RE trends continue, the land is going to be worth a lot.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Aug 2010 19:56

Self imposed weight restrictions are already in existence for most of these airports. DGCA will make them more stringent.

Fares are bound to go up to compensate for this.

http://www.asianage.com/india/dgca-set- ... r-load-128

DGCA set to restrict aircraft passenger load
Aug 05th, 2010 - Age Correspondent | New Delhi

The DGCA may soon levy restrictions on the passenger load carried in certain types of aircraft landing at some of the 11 critical airports in the country in case corrective measures recommended by the DGCA are not carried out either by the airport operators or concerned state governments.

In the wake of the Mangalore air-crash in May this year, special DGCA audit inspection teams have completed inspection of eight of the 11 critical airports in the country. The 11 critical airports are Leh, Kullu, Shimla, Port Blair, Agartala, Lengpui, Calicut, Mangalore, Jammu, Patna, Latur.
Sources said that the DGCA was seriously considering imposing restrictions on passenger loads at aircraft landing, for instance, at Patna airport which is one of the critical airports. “Certain tree-tops are obstructing the landing approach of aircraft at Patna.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2010 20:54

if the entire 7k stretch from NH to BIAL terminal is given on lease , then they are sitting on valuable resource - I can see tech parks , hotels and later apartments coming up. the city is expanding and yelehanka is already considered 'mainstream'. whitefield also started out as a ITPL in the middle of nowhere. in 10 yrs everything changed.

there is one small transit hotel coming up outside BIAL. some more style and proper exterior planning in terms of multi storey car parks and revamping the current jholawalla college kampus type design would be good. the departure area is quite cramped. and it has just 5 aerobridges iirc. seats could be made comfortable as opposed to a sterile steel operation theater type furniture.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 06 Aug 2010 07:09

Cochin Int'l is leading the way in making an "Aerotropolis"

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Aug 2010 13:37

Dileep wrote:Cochin Int'l is leading the way in making an "Aerotropolis"

Which is a real fancy term being touted by airport development companies across the country - but falls flat on it's face once reality sinks in.

The biggest mistake people make is to assume that airport will somehow be center of commercial development - which except in case of perishable and high value items, they are not. I've been to Cochin and can't think of anything or anyone, wanting to locate close to the airport. Why should they do so? what advantage does it confer? At the end of the day, they expect the Aerotropolis to be a real estate play - which, more often than not, they cannot be.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Aug 2010 23:59

From SSC India DEL page:
New Delhi IGI T3 interior pictures

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Aug 2010 20:19

The Leh disaster has again exposed our weak underbelly. when road/rail is cut off , our air infra is not adequate for large scale relief ops for even a small city let alone a metro.

I used to wonder why NATO bases in the middle of nowhere with barely a mud hut and a couple of tents have ACRES and ACRES of open tarmac and pretty solid runways. its because when the yellow material hits fans, they can surge large number of planes into the region and have the parking space/ATC/radar to support such a dense airbridge. they have a long experience in this expeditionary mode of crisis management and they are right.

we really cannot optimally size our airports purely on the basis of commercial or current military load factor. they need to be maximally sized and equipped for the day of the dog scenarios.

we can start by building some mahdi type airports in Ladakh.

we are already late, the chinese have been building 15,000ft runways and aprons all over tibet to surge their RRF units.

that luxor airport in egypt wherein our MKIs parked overnight enroute to france has a giant apron too, probably for munna transit duties.

manish · Post by **manish** » 07 Aug 2010 20:48

Meanwhile, even as Cong (I) continues to take on the Bellary Reddy's in their own backyard with their Pada Yatra, the Senior Reddy casually announces the launch of a greenfield airport project for Bellary.
Chennai firm to build Bellary airport in Karnataka

An airport will come up in Bellary, one of Karanataka's most backward districts but in the news over illegal iron ore mining, at a cost of Rs.320 crore.

The greenfield airport will be built by Chennai-based infrastructure developer MARG Ltd on the outskirts of Bellary, about 320 km from here, under a build, operate and transfer (BOT) basis.

As per the agreement signed here Friday by the state-run Infrastructure Development Department with the developer, MARG will operate and maintain the airport for 30 years and then it will be transferred to the state thereafter.

'The airport will be built in 24 months after the foundation is laid August 20 at Bellary. The runway length will initially be suitable for landing ATR turbo-prop aircraft and will be extended subsequently for jets,' MARG chairman and managing director G.R.K. Reddy told reporters here.

This is the second new greenfield airport awarded in the last couple of years. The previous one was at Bijapur which was awarded to the same firm. The Shimoga airport project is in a limbo after the original concessionaire Maytas got tangled up in the Satyam scandal. The newly built airport in Mysore is ready but yet to find airlines willing to operate regular services. Perhaps Bellary may be a more viable airport in future if most of the investments committed in the recent GIM come through. Bellary already has a small airport operated by the JSW Group for JVSL.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Aug 2010 21:06

there are pix in skyscrapercity of the current bellary airport.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 08 Aug 2010 00:09

Does anybody know people having got some permissions obtained from the DGCA for operating things like RC model aircraft? How are these regulated in India? All aircraft are ideally expected to be "passed" by DGCA I would assume. Can one design one and fly with or without getting permissions? Purely non-transport, non-commercial stuff. From what I know all aircraft operated by airlines (and cargo companies?) are designated as transport (as they would transport stuff from A to B ).

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 10 Aug 2010 10:39

OT but the shape of things 2 come in desh?

Flight attendant charged with opening emergency evacuation chute
From Susan Candiotti, Laura Batchelor and Jesse Solomon, CNN

New York (CNN) -- ..

Steven Slater was arrested at his home and charged with criminal mischief, reckless endangerment and criminal trespass, said Helen Peterson at the Queens District Attorney's Office.

The incident took place just after the Jet Blue flight landed when ...and the conversation escalated.

"I know the facts that have been related to me -- the plane was taxiing in, some passenger got up to take their bag down, the steward -- flight attendant -- approached, told him to not do that," said Kelly. "He called him an expletive and apparently hit him or pushed him in some way. The story got on the radio based on a statement that 'I've been doing this for twenty years and I'm out of here.'"

"It's a strange way to quit, let's put it that way," he said. "I don't think he'll be able to come back."
...

The identity of the passenger involved in the altercation has not been confirmed.
..
NNN adds: there is no truth to the rumor that this is a senior visiting Indian Go-Getter CEO, Frequent Flyer on Jet Airways and Indian Airlines

As a rule, passengers are required to stay in their seats with their seatbelts fastened until the pilot has reached the gate and gives the all clear sign.

Peterson said the second degree criminal mischief and first degree reckless endangerment charges are felonies that could land Slater in jail for up to seven years. The criminal trespass charge and two other lesser mischief and endangerment charges are misdemeanors.

Find this article at:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/08/0 ... tml?hpt=T2

1. How does one contribute to the legal defense & counter-suing fund for this poor guy? That oiseule who insisted on ignoring rules should have the ThreeFatTSAGuysSittingOnTop treatment.

2. Is anyone here any more, old enough to remember the story that ends in:

That, Mr. Prime Minister, is the Indian Ambassador to the United States!

***************************************************
**And followup - no, amazingly the passenger does not seem to have been a desi Go-Getter CEO, because the vocab does not gel***

Bail set as cursing, beer-grabbing flight attendant grabs spotlight
By Doug Gross, CNN

New York (CNN) -- A flight attendant whose profanity-laced tirade has turned him into a folk hero of sorts was released on bail Tuesday night from a Bronx detention center.

Bail of $2,500 was posted for Steven Slater, of Queens, New York, after being charged Tuesday morning. Authorities say he grabbed some beer and triggered an inflatable emergency chute for a dramatic exit from a plane at a JFK Airport terminal in New York.

..
Slater said as he left the facility that he appreciated the groundswell of support that has grown since the Monday incident, but declined to comment further.

..
JetBlue is investigating the incident and has removed Slater from duty. The company would not say whether or not he is on paid leave.

The incident took place after the JetBlue flight landed. A passenger stood to remove a bag from the overhead bin while the plane was still taxiing, a law enforcement source said.

The source said a flight attendant exchanged words with the passenger, and the conversation escalated....

Oh yes ... it escalated.

"To the passenger who just called me a mother f***** f*** you. I've been in this business 28 years and I've had it," he said over the plane's public address system, according to passenger Phil Catelinet's blog.

Kelly said the passenger also apparently pushed or hit Slater during the altercation.

When the plane stopped at the gate, Slater reportedly grabbed beer from a beverage cart before deploying the emergency slide and using it to leave the plane.

...

Queens District Attorney Richard Brown said Slater's actions could have had deadly consequences.

"The emergency chute deploys at 3,000 pounds per square inch within seconds and could easily injure or kill ground crews or others on the tarmac who are unaware the chute has been activated," Brown said.

{ So would dropping a 45-lb monster carryon on your child's neck because some ******** couldn't keep his ass strapped down for another 2 minutes}

Slater smiled Tuesday as he entered a Queens courtroom for his arraignment. He was ordered held on $2,500 bail and not to have contact with two specific JetBlue employees.

..a written statement from him was read to the court. "For those of you who had dignity and respect for the last 20 years, it's been a great ride," the statement said.
.............

By Tuesday, Slater's name was all over the place, often winning shows of support.

On Facebook, a celebrity fan page for Slater already had nearly 8,000 members Tuesday morning. A thousand more people had joined a group called "Free Steven Slater," and fledgling groups included "I hate the mother f***** who called Steven Slater a mother f*****" and "I want Steven Slater to be my flight attendant."

"Steven Slater is a bit like John Henry, who became a folk hero years after hammering his way through a railway tunnel faster than a machine," columnist Joanna Molloy wrote in the New York Daily News. "There'll probably be a song about him online today."

He also was getting some sympathy from his colleagues, even if they weren't necessarily endorsing the chute popping and slide to the tarmac.

"I have to admit that if a passenger had hit me with luggage I would have liked an apology, too, though I don't think I would have demanded one," Heather Poole, a flight attendant and blogger, wrote Tuesday on the travel blog Gadling.

"That said, if that same passenger had told me to F-Off! I, too, might have been tempted to pick up the PA and direct the same obscenity to the dude with the potty mouth over the intercom system for all to hear," she wrote. "But never in my wildest dreams would I have ever thought to pop a slide and make a run for it. Probably because I'd have no idea which way to go!"

Catelinet, the blogging passenger, told CNN's "American Morning" that Slater looked cool after his unorthodox deplaning -- during which he had the presence of mind to toss his carry-on luggage down the chute before he slid away.

"He had flung his tie off ... he said, 'I quit my job. I'm done with this.' And he was happy. It wasn't like he was mad. He seemed relieved and excited that this career was, you know, taking a new turn," Catelinet said.

CNN's Susan Candiotti, Laura Batchelor, Jesse Solomon and The CNN Wire contributed to this report.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 10 Aug 2010 22:04

DGCA puts in New procedure two months after mangalore crash

New Delhi, Aug 10 (PTI) More than two months after the Mangalore air crash, new procedures have been put in place for co-pilots to take charge of the aircraft as a "last ditch" effort if the captain has been incapacitated in-flight.This follows reports that during the May 22 crash, which claimed 158 lives, the co-pilot had served several warnings to the commander that the approach of the aircraft was not correct and a go-around was necessary.Under the new procedures finalised by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), the co-pilot or the 'pilot non-flying' (PNF), would shout a warning to the commander -- 'Approach Not Stabilised' -- if the former finds that the aircraft is not geared for a stable approach towards the runway.In case the commander or 'pilot flying' (PF) does not respond due to likely incapacitation and the situation continues to deteriorate, the PNF would again warn -- 'Go Around Captain'.If there is still no response from the commander on the second warning, the co-pilot would shout 'My Controls, Captain', alert the air traffic control saying 'Go Around' and immediately initiate necessary steps to do so.The DGCA, however, made it clear that these actions would have to be initiated when the aircraft is at a minimum of 500 feet from the ground and the entire procedure has to be completed above 200 feet height."It is to be remembered that this is the last ditch effort to remain in the envelop of flight safety and, therefore, the pilot flying (PF) shall ensure that the flight conduct is such that the above steps are not warranted," the new procedure said.

I am not sure if such procedures are in place elsewhere , except on Navy ships and submarines.Reminds me of movie "Crimson Tide".

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Aug 2010 09:38

This is what happens when you have autoriksha drivers running airlines!!

Surely, India deserves better.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/275832/More ... gains.html

OPED | Friday, August 13, 2010

More pains, more gains

Arindam Chaudhuri

Following the flash floods in Leh, some airline companies began overcharging stranded tourists, capitalising on their plight. While such bizarre behaviour is driven by a short-sighted policy of profiteering at the cost of long-term strategy, it is also a source of embarrassment to a nation that is now a global service power

When over 3,200 tourists were left stranded in Leh after a major cloudburst, a few private airline companies were planning to capitalise on the opportunity! Taking advantage of the situation, these airlines not only jacked up their fares for almost all flights flying out of Leh, but also viewed this crisis as an opportunity to squeeze the maximum from the already troubled tourists. What can be more shameful for a country that boasts about its service sector and weaves dreams around it? Airline companies knew it very well that there was no way out for these stranded people other than to accept their offer if they wanted to escape the deadly fury of nature. The flash floods had already killed around 150 people and over 500 had gone missing. Leave aside providing medical aid and discounted tickets (for those who couldn’t afford them), these airlines adopted a reverse method and demanded a higher fare holding the tourists to ransom!

Going by media reports, two specific airlines jacked up their fares exorbitantly and charged stranded passengers anything between `30,000-35,000 for a one-way flight out of Leh, which is a staggering ten times higher than what the fares are in normal conditions. And mind you, this was despite the warnings issued by the Directorate General Civil Aviation. And again, this was just not an aberration. Airline companies are habituated to such shameless moves whenever they find an opportunity. Be it strikes, natural calamities or some crisis, they blatantly jack up their ticket fares in order to make quick bucks.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 13 Aug 2010 10:09

^^^^
Guess too much privatisation is also "injurious to health"

. Hope, the DGCA pulls up these two air lines and take them to task.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Aug 2010 10:13

Sachin wrote:^^^^
Guess too much privatisation is also "injurious to health" . Hope, the DGCA pulls up these two air lines and take them to task.

I am sure that you have heard of the statement "hand in glove", saar. Things are like this onlee.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 13 Aug 2010 10:24

chetak wrote:I am sure that you have heard of the statement "hand in glove", saar. Things are like this onlee.

I get your point. But there is a feeling among the Mango man that when we privatise any thing, it would work efficiently. But what I am slowly realising is that the efficiency does increase, but soon the private players start framing their own rules. Off course we may be overwhelmed by the warmth,care,attention the PYTs in these private air lines gives us (and the rough shod treatment from Indian Airlines and Air India), and we get a rude shock when these private air lines "reveal their true colours" when misfortune strike us.

Aside, I noticed the same in the case of private bus operators. In Kerala, the state run road transport (KSRTC) was once an epitome of mis-management. People then heavily favoured private buses because it was more efficient. Soon we started seeing the negatives. No private buses ply on the roads after 9PM (Cities may be an exception). The rates are now becoming exhorbitant. Under a strong M.D, KSRTC (an IPS officer) reworked its route plans and started introducing more buses on the popular routes. And the private bus owners plan for a stirke, stating KSRTC is now playing spoil sport. These chaps wants KSRTC to remain in the sad state, so that they can reap more profits.

I really wish to know how such things are controlled in US which is highly capitalistic.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 13 Aug 2010 11:04

This is the "200-year experience of Wild West" that I cited b4 someone sneered. As the old saying goes:

Experience does not keep you from repeating mistakes, but it might keep you from enjoying making them

The only antidote to these sorts of predatory practices is competition. But it' not so simple.

Let's stand back and consider this hyped-up report sanely.

So some airlines charged $750 for a 1-way trip OUT of a disaster-struck airfield at above 14000 feet, where most of their employees had probably lost family members, and getting food, fuel and communications was extremely difficult. Basically, ticket prices for 1-way trips are usually quite close to those for round-trips, because that's how airlines operate, you can't expect to get exactly 50% cost for a 1-way trip, even on autorickshaws out of remote areas, hey?

The claim is that this was upto 10 times the cheapest fare. I have to ask how any airline can afford to run a safe operation, charging only $75 for operations out of Leh at any time, let alone during monsoon season. These are not large airplanes, or long routes, so that price would not even cover the fuel cost (how much does it cost to transport jet fuel to Leh I wonder)

So the "usual" fare is a cut-throat cut-rate, probably subsidized through some inventive collaboration with hotels, brothels, pakis, pickpockets etc.

Now for the costs during an emergency. Don't you think that airplanes, and flight slots into and out of Leh, are at a premium these days, with the extreme emergency airlift in progress? Half the airport staff are probably out, some may be dead or injured. They probably want to airlift their own family members out of there on priority basis. Surely the surviving staff are working 19 hours a day trying to keep the emergency operations moving.

If the airline is any good, they are paying these heroic people 2x or 3x salaries, and trying to come up with cash to help them take care of their near and dear ones in hospital, pay for the airlift of their relatives, etc. etc. Where does this cash come from?

And in the middle of that, some fat-cat journos want the same cut-rate airfare to lift their asses out of there at their convenience? Is this reasonable from the airline's pov?
******************************************

So, my guess is that the airline says,

hey, buddy, you want out of here this minute, jumping the line in front of this family of 6 with their ailing, hungry children and injured mother, you fork over the Standard Coach Fare. Or get on roller skates and enjoy the trip downhill.

After all they probably don't pay that out of their pocket, but from some fat-cat expense account.

If you don't want to pay that, well, go back to the hotel like we told you in the first place, pay Rs. 1000 a night for the next 10 days, and we'll get you a seat at the cut rate of Rs. 15,000, and you'll wind up still ahead.

What is wrong with that?
*******************************************

As for "US solutions", in this case there aren't any. Presumably, whoever wrote this report could not go fly another airline because there weren't any, and if there were, they would charge the same. As an example, say you were stuck in Snowmass, CO and there's a 100-year blizzard in progress, but you ABSOLUTELY INSIST on getting back to your Manhattan office RIGHT AWAY. You can go hire an idiot to fly you on a private plane, if you pay, say, $10,000 on top of the usual $200 to get from Snowmass to Denver. And you may very well end up like Sen. Ted Stevens did.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 15 Aug 2010 18:29

enqyoob wrote:This is the "200-year experience of Wild West" that I cited b4 someone sneered. As the old saying goes:
Experience does not keep you from repeating mistakes, but it might keep you from enjoying making them
The only antidote to these sorts of predatory practices is competition. But it' not so simple.

Let's stand back and consider this hyped-up report sanely.

So some airlines charged $750 for a 1-way trip OUT of a disaster-struck airfield at above 14000 feet, where most of their employees had probably lost family members, and getting food, fuel and communications was extremely difficult. Basically, ticket prices for 1-way trips are usually quite close to those for round-trips, because that's how airlines operate, you can't expect to get exactly 50% cost for a 1-way trip, even on autorickshaws out of remote areas, hey?

The claim is that this was upto 10 times the cheapest fare. I have to ask how any airline can afford to run a safe operation, charging only $75 for operations out of Leh at any time, let alone during monsoon season. These are not large airplanes, or long routes, so that price would not even cover the fuel cost (how much does it cost to transport jet fuel to Leh I wonder)

So the "usual" fare is a cut-throat cut-rate, probably subsidized through some inventive collaboration with hotels, brothels, pakis, pickpockets etc.

Now for the costs during an emergency. Don't you think that airplanes, and flight slots into and out of Leh, are at a premium these days, with the extreme emergency airlift in progress? Half the airport staff are probably out, some may be dead or injured. They probably want to airlift their own family members out of there on priority basis. Surely the surviving staff are working 19 hours a day trying to keep the emergency operations moving.

If the airline is any good, they are paying these heroic people 2x or 3x salaries, and trying to come up with cash to help them take care of their near and dear ones in hospital, pay for the airlift of their relatives, etc. etc. Where does this cash come from?

And in the middle of that, some fat-cat journos want the same cut-rate airfare to lift their asses out of there at their convenience? Is this reasonable from the airline's pov?
******************************************

So, my guess is that the airline says,
hey, buddy, you want out of here this minute, jumping the line in front of this family of 6 with their ailing, hungry children and injured mother, you fork over the Standard Coach Fare. Or get on roller skates and enjoy the trip downhill.
After all they probably don't pay that out of their pocket, but from some fat-cat expense account.

If you don't want to pay that, well, go back to the hotel like we told you in the first place, pay Rs. 1000 a night for the next 10 days, and we'll get you a seat at the cut rate of Rs. 15,000, and you'll wind up still ahead.

What is wrong with that?
*******************************************

As for "US solutions", in this case there aren't any. Presumably, whoever wrote this report could not go fly another airline because there weren't any, and if there were, they would charge the same. As an example, say you were stuck in Snowmass, CO and there's a 100-year blizzard in progress, but you ABSOLUTELY INSIST on getting back to your Manhattan office RIGHT AWAY. You can go hire an idiot to fly you on a private plane, if you pay, say, $10,000 on top of the usual $200 to get from Snowmass to Denver. And you may very well end up like Sen. Ted Stevens did.

The government should have a scheme where arrlines are "forced" opperate out of disaster zones at "fair" costs". I am shure it would have been possible for Jet, KF, etc to offer extra flights from Leh.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 15 Aug 2010 21:20

In times of emergency, the govt. has the right (heh, heh, as if they need it) to commandeer civilian airliners. Question is, who is going to fly them, and will they use these for civilian flights? Come to think of it, the govt maybe DID commandeer all aircraft that could be grabbed for emergency airlift of supplies, and airlift of babus' families and chamchas out.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Aug 2010 13:48

enqyoob wrote:
The claim is that this was upto 10 times the cheapest fare. I have to ask how any airline can afford to run a safe operation, charging only $75 for operations out of Leh at any time, let alone during monsoon season. These are not large airplanes, or long routes, so that price would not even cover the fuel cost (how much does it cost to transport jet fuel to Leh I wonder)

Good Sir, how is safe operations and cost of the airfare related? As for economics of flying operations to Leh, a search for airfares (Delhi to Leh) as I write this post gives me a number number of ~INR 5,000 (for one month advance booking). Now considering that these are your single aisle aircraft, last minute booking may go for any where in the 10K-15K range (no back-up number for this. But using my exp. on New Delhi-Bnglr route, where early morning flights are generally full and me has done quite a lot of last minute bookings - average fare is in > INR 3,500 and usually in INR 4,500-5,000 range). Would not have the airlines considered these numbers plus occupancy calculations when they began their service?

So how can the calculations be different during these times?

Now for the costs during an emergency. Don't you think that airplanes, and flight slots into and out of Leh, are at a premium these days, with the extreme emergency airlift in progress? Half the airport staff are probably out, some may be dead or injured. They probably want to airlift their own family members out of there on priority basis. Surely the surviving staff are working 19 hours a day trying to keep the emergency operations moving.

Your argument is based on assumption that cost to the airline has somehow increased. How? Is GOI charging premium from airlines for the slots? Most definitely not. As for the staff, most of these are likely to be the AAI Personnel. And considering that this is an IAF Base, most likely than not it they who would have been managing the show along with AAI Staff. How does all this allow the airlines to charge extra? What skin is off their back in this?

If the airline is any good, they are paying these heroic people 2x or 3x salaries, and trying to come up with cash to help them take care of their near and dear ones in hospital, pay for the airlift of their relatives, etc. etc. Where does this cash come from?

Even if they are, how does that allow airlines to charge such prices? what cost are they trying to recover? Most probably they have their employees covered through insurance - so some money is going to come out of that.

This is greed, pure and simple. They know they have demand and they know people will pay. So, they jacked up the prices.

How come the prices are 'back' to the 6K-7K range for day after tomorrow? Or did they recover all their cost in one day?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 18 Aug 2010 19:05

Corporates set to buy 157 aircrafts over next year.

Around a billion dollars’ worth of new private aircraft are expected to land here over the next one year — 157 of them at last count, according to the ministry of civil aviation data.

When inducted, these planes will catapult this country to fourth position in the world market for corporate jets, according to industry estimates. India is currently the 18th largest base for corporate jets, with 111 registered mini planes.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Aug 2010 02:44

Co-pilot’s cries went in vain

''Control!'' This was the last word the Mangalore Air Traffic Control (Mangalore Tower) heard from the cockpit of the ill-fated Dubai-Mangalore Air India Express flight IX-812 on the morning of May 22, 2010.
...
...
The panic word came at exactly 6.05.21 am, according to the transcript of the communication between the Mangalore ATC and the pilot for 33 minutes preceding the fatal crash. Seconds before this, the co-pilot had advised the Captain thus: “Go around Captain.” The ATC heard these words from the cockpit at 6.04.38 am–45 seconds before the last word (“Control”) was heard. Probably, the co-pilot was asking his captain to abort landing. But it was too late.
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chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Aug 2010 21:18

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=83633

Transcript of Cockpit Conversation:

This is the conversation between Air India flight IX 812 and Mangalore Tower at the airport before the crash.

Time- (to- from) - text

05:54:51-IX 812 to Mangalore Tower- Good morning
05:54: 59- Mangalore Tower to IX812- Good morning, report established 10 DME arc runway 24
05:55:00- IX 812 to Mangalore Tower-- Call you established 12 DME Arc runway 24
05:55:04- MT to IX 812- 10DME arc
05:55:08- IX 812 to Mangalore Tower-10DME arc
05:57:44- Established on 10DME arc Runway 24
05: 57:52--IX 812 to Mangalore Tower- Report established on ILS
06:04:15 Mangalore Tower to IX812------Confirm established
06: 04:17 IX 812 to Mangalore Tower-----Affirmative
06:04:19 Mangalore Tower to IX812-----Wind calm, runway 24, clear to land
06:04:22 --IX 812 to Mangalore Tower-Clear to land
06:04:38( IX 812) - ------Go around captain (Probably from cockpit)
06:05:04--Mangalore Tower to IX812 ------Back track runway 24, vacate via Delta
06:05:21(IX812) Control (Panicky voice from cockpit)
06:09:29 Mangalore tower to IX812-----Express India 812, Mangalore control correction Express India Mangalore Tower
06:09:39 Mangalore tower to IX812---- Express India 812, Mangalore Tower
Though the crash of Air India Express IX 812 was reported as having occurred at 06.02 am, the conversation between Mangalore Airport tower and from cockpit of IX812 reveals that co-pilot of the aircraft suggested the captain to ‘go around’ at 06:04:33 am (IST). The voice is believed to be of the co-pilot, suggesting that the pilot go around despite landing.

The captain contacted Mangalore Tower at 05:54: 51 and the conversation was on till 06:09:39 after which there was no reply from the aircraft.

Flight IX 812 had contacted Mangalore Control at 05:32:48 am and had a conversation till 05:54:47 am, and later came under Mangalore Tower.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 19 Aug 2010 23:45

Bangalores terminal enhancement plans unveiled today

manish · Post by **manish** » 20 Aug 2010 10:30

Nihat wrote:Bangalores terminal enhancement plans unveiled today

The increase in check-in counters and seating is badly needed. The current terminal gets overcrowded easily when more than one widebody jet starts check-in. It is common to see long snake-like queues within the current terminal.

And it seems like some Dilli 1C like tall pillars are going to come up next to the existing terminal to support the extension.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2010 12:37

now that GVK is driving things and seeing the hassles they faced in Mumbai, they would be firing on all cylinders to make an impact.
this is a much needed expansion.

a multi storey car park and long term car parking would also help, though taxi unions will try to nip the long term car park concept.

the arrival and departure driveways needed to be at two levels - almost all major airports have that. unfortunately this cannot be fixed in T1.
hope the T2 is much better.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 23 Aug 2010 15:23

speaking of Mumbai, here's an update on whats going on in Navi Mumbai...

EAC to visit airport site in Navi Mumbai

the Expert Appraisal Committee (EAC) plans to visit the proposed project site and hold interaction with the villagers, representatives of the government and the state-run City and Industrial Development Corporation (Cidco).

EAC, which held meeting with Cidco on August 20, is expected to visit in the second or third week of September. EAC is likely to submit its report by end of September.

The official said that Cidco, which is a nodal agency for the proposed new airport, has clarified its stand on environmental issues with regard to diversion and training of Gadhi and Ulwe rivers, replantation of mangroves on 350 hectares in Dahanu taluka or Thane district and blasting of hill 80 meters above sea level.

Unfortunately I don't hear any talk of the Trans-harbour Link without which this airport, if it ever comes up, will be a dud.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Aug 2010 05:59

On second drinking violation, pilots to lose licence for good

In the strictest action ever to curb drunk flying in India, pilots reporting to work tipsy will soon stand to lose their flying licence — hence their jobs. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has finalized new rules under which a pilot caught tipsy for the first time will have his or her flying licence suspended for three months. And if caught again, the pilot's licence will be permanently cancelled — which means the pilot can fly afterwards only as a passenger but never inside the cockpit of an Indian carrier.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 25 Aug 2010 06:13

06:04:22 --IX 812 to Mangalore Tower-Clear to land
06:04:38( IX 812) - ------Go around captain (Probably from cockpit)
06:05:04--Mangalore Tower to IX812 ------Back track runway 24, vacate via Delta
06:05:21(IX812) Control (Panicky voice from cockpit)

16 seconds from the "clear to land" to the "Go around". About right for finding out that they were too far down the runway and hadn't touched down.

But what the heck happened from ...04:38 until ..05:21 (43 seconds!!!!???)
Sounds like he did not "go around" but kept going and touched down, too far and then the plane slewed out of control.
I still say thrust reverser failure on one side, or the captain tried stopping by doing a 90-degree turn on the ground.

Did the captain suffer heart failure on final approach, I wonder. There is no response in the recording to the "go around captain", for the next 43 seconds. No "%$#^&&!" even. The co-pilot may not have realized until 05:21 that the captain was not conscious.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 25 Aug 2010 06:16

My observation (very recent) is that there is a shocking deterioration in the quality of training and experience of the staff of Kingfisher airlines. I know they are way overextended in credit etc, but looks like the good ppl have left. The ground staff are utterly clueless, and the "Airport Manager" of Kingfisher at COK is a lazy pompous idiot, looks like an Air India alumnus. Dubai counter staff are Pakis.

niran · Post by **niran** » 25 Aug 2010 09:41

enqyoob wrote: Did the captain suffer heart failure on final approach, I wonder.

that raises the question
Did the Pilot have had history of Heart Disease? AFAIK pilots are supposed to be
medically examined yearly where Heart Diseases, Diabetes & Epilepsy are to be specifically
ruled out.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Aug 2010 08:06

CLICK HERE >>>>>>>> INSIDE THE COCKPIT OF THE AIRBUS A380<http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm>

As you move your cursor you can see the whole cockpit from top to bottom.

You can even zoom on the dash.

Most panoramas are of landscapes.

This 360-degree panorama unlike any other.

It's a picture of an Airbus A380's cockpit.

Be sure to go to full screen.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Aug 2010 08:24

enqyoob wrote:My observation (very recent) is that there is a shocking deterioration in the quality of training and experience of the staff of Kingfisher airlines. I know they are way overextended in credit etc, but looks like the good ppl have left. The ground staff are utterly clueless, and the "Airport Manager" of Kingfisher at COK is a lazy pompous idiot, looks like an Air India alumnus. Dubai counter staff are Pakis.

close to a quarter of their aircraft are grounded.

They are on cash and carry with almost all their suppliers.

Staff are leaving in droves.

Only the dregs seem to be hanging on.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Aug 2010 10:53

What a bunch of losers. The "professional" pilots could have handled it much better. All round panic and chaos in the cockpit!!

A completely manufactured and mishandled fiasco.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/279233/Fire ... jured.html

Fire alarm in Jet flight: 15 injured

IANS | Mumbai Saturday, August 28, 2010

At least 15 passengers were injured during an emergency evacuation of a Jet Airways flight on which there was a fire alarm Friday night, officials said.

The Jet Airways Mumbai-Chennai flight 9W-2302 was scheduled for departure around 9 p.m. when there was a fire indicator from one of its engines,

The flight commander aborted plans and declared a precautionary emergency following the fire alarm from the left engine of the aircraft.

The incident occurred when the flight was on the taxiway prior to take-off, and emergency evacuation of the 130 passengers on board was effected, said the official.

During the emergency evacuation exercise using chutes for sliding down, at least 13 passengers sustained minor injuries, while two sustained fractures, airport officials said.

Added later.

As per TV news, this loser crew has been de-rostered for panic handling of the emergency and improper evacuation procedures.

Good going.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 28 Aug 2010 11:09

For such an advanced aircraft, the pilots seat are crappy and not really designed for long term comfort. How can they recline and move their legs to improve their blood flow and allow themselves to remain alert?

And also how can the pilots see the runway when they try to land? They have zero visibility of the runway.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Aug 2010 11:27

Hitesh wrote:For such an advanced aircraft, the pilots seat are crappy and not really designed for long term comfort. How can they recline and move their legs to improve their blood flow and allow themselves to remain alert?

And also how can the pilots see the runway when they try to land? They have zero visibility of the runway.

Hitesh bhai,

The cockpit is roomy and comfortable enough to encourage frequent and regular entry to the " mile high club ", by crews so inclined. ( which means 99.9999%)

I have been in a 380 cockpit in Toulouse. Anything and every thing that is supposed to recline, reclines period.

How can any aircraft cockpit have "zero visibility of the runway"??