Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[Cain Marko]

Iirc, 1500, New variant s carry 2000.

[member_28108]

http://news.oneindia.in/feature/fighter ... e-scroll-1

Bengaluru, Nov 3: Among the tweets that went viral on Oct 17, 2014, the day India successfully test-fired its first subsonic cruise missile, Nirbhay, one read, "Jaguar fighter chases Nirbhay missile!" This tweet from this writer took many by surprise. Fighter plane chasing a missile was definitely a new phenomenon for many devotees following India's military might. And, two weeks after India's successful attempt of launching Nirbhay, details are now available with OneIndia about the well-coordinated ‘sky thriller' choreographed by the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) and executed by the Indian Air Force (IAF) with support from the Indian Navy. According to sources, the IAF readied two Sukhois (one on as a stand-by) at the Kalaikunda Air Force Station ahead of the launch. The pilots were thoroughly briefed about the designated flight-path, timing of the launch and duration of the flight. Hotlines at the DRDO's Interim Test Range (ITR) in Balasore and IAF HQ in Delhi were busy with the top brass ensuring that the missile sky chase by the fighter goes as planned. "We had a Sukhoi chasing Nirbhay during the terminated mission last year. The pilots had then captured the missile's journey till it started to veer off from the assigned trajectory. This time due to some last-minute technical issues, we had to hold the Sukhoi back and decided to sent a Jaguar on chase duty," an IAF official said. The IAF had initially planned for a MiG-27, but Jaguar got the nod finally because of its higher endurance levels. The Jaguar was flown in from the Ambala base to Kalaikunda. Pilots will have to keep a safe distance The official said that Mirages, Jaguars and Sukhois were used in the past to chase long-range missiles. "The video footage becomes a vital data for the scientists to see the behaviour of the missile. Experienced pilots are generally picked up for the job, which involves lots of coordination. First the pilots will have to pick the launch point and later will have to keep a safe distance while chasing the missile. Whenever the Navy fires a missile, the IAF gets involved with the chase duties," the official said. He said since the flight envelope is already planned and most of the parameters of the missile are known well in advance, the pilots normally have an easy task, capturing the missile in motion. "The speed and the way point navigation (in case of Nirbhay) was well known to the pilots. The video footage looks very similar to Nirbhay's first launch. This time we couldn't chase the missile's entire journey as the Jaguar was short on fuel and we had to peel off after 45 minutes into the chase," he added. Inspiring role by IAF & Navy, says DRDO Director-General According to Dr K Tamilmani, Director-General (Aero), DRDO, the IAF and Navy played an ‘inspiring role' during Nribhay's launch. "One helicopter with a diver was kept ready in case of any eventuality to the chase aircraft. Another chopper was ready at the Kalaikunda base. With the support of both IAF and Navy, we were able to capture Nirbhay's outing," Dr Tamilmani said. A great coordinated effort, says ADE Director For P Srikumar, Director, Aeronautical Development Establishment, the chase by Jaguar was equally important as the launch of his pet weapon, Nirbhay. "It was definitely a marathon coordination effort. Airborne resources like helicopters are commonly used to record the lift-off and splash down of missiles. Chase aircraft being deployed to capture various phases of flights have become a common practice now. The fact that we are able to synergise the efforts of various agencies and obtain valuable information during such important missions gives us the confidence that we are on the right track of development of indigenous systems," Srikumar told OneIndia. Chasing is a skilled job, says Tejas Test Pilot Terming chasing in air as a skilled job, a seasoned Tejas Test Pilot with the Aeronautical Development Agency says that the success often depended upon precision planning. "You cannot be early or late. You got to be at the spot soon after the missile is launched. In the case of Nirbhay, it flies like an aircraft making the job easy for the pilot. He can match up with the missile's speed and even get closer," says the Test Pilot, you has been associated with the Tejas project for over a decade. To a query on the dangers of following a missile, he said that the chase aircraft has to always stay out of the weapon's field of way. "The weapon should not lock on to your aircraft and you should never go ahead of the missile. There are incidents of chase aircraft being hit by the missile in the United States. Normally we keep a safe distance knowing that the missile can behave strange at times, especially if it is fired from an aircraft," he said. "I have captured the Tejas firing R-73 (Russian-made) supersonic missile, flying a chase aircraft. It is a tough task as the missile disappears from your sight within no time (since it is supersonic). Here the key is to capture the release and initial movements of the missile," he added.

Read more at: http://news.oneindia.in/feature/fighter ... e-scroll-1

[ramana]

There was plan to buy 40 SU-34s for special tasks for IAF. Is the above a/c part of the group?

[member_26622]

One thing which befuddles me about our MOD+Army netas capability/inclination/import fascination/corruption level is -

Why in the world did we spend a decade working on super hard 'NAG' missile which has longer range and targeting capability than anything else out there, to induct under 1000 numbers WHILE going for importing/paying royalty on local mnfr. for thousands and thousands of Spike from Israel. We could have designed +developed a SPIKE equivalent much more faster and easily given its reasonable performance expectations.

How did we miss this 'elephant in the room' need and Why do such needs come out of the blue or in other plain words where does this kind of stupidity originate from?

Heartening to figure out the import heads disguised under desi garbs posting and celebrating Spike's 'greatness' and 'unique' capabilities!

[jamwal]

NAG is not man-portable yet. It needs a vehicle like NAMICA or a chopper. SPIKE being purchased are infantry weapons which can be carried and fired by soldiers.

[member_28722]

Also according to public domain sources, DRDL has not yet started on working. Army has already project a need for 7000+ vehicle mounted Nag. I am sure they will jump on a MANPO once its developed, it will procure those in 10K plus numbers to replace the plethora of MANPO it has today.

[Austin]

Good Details on Brahmos-M development excepts from link

http://www.forceindia.net/FocussedonFuture.aspx

So enter, BRAHMOS-M. “BRAHMOS-M will be a new design. A compact engine with better energy propellant which will not compromise on 300 km range; lighter weight with less diameter; speed of 3.3 Mach; and better packaging and routing of pipes with computer aided design and latest electronics.” To ascertain the feasibility of BRAHMOS-M, three steps have been initiated. One, HAL has done some preliminary studies. Two, DRDO has conducted design studies which will be shared with Russian NPOM partner. And three, Russia is willing to develop the new propulsion system keeping BrahMos aerospace in the loop. This is not all.

“The seeker for BRAHMOS-M will have sufficient redundancies to include anti-radiation, Radio Frequency and Imaging Infra-Red capabilities. The guidance in addition to the present G3 combination will also come from indigenous satellite navigation constellation — IRNSS — which will have a total of seven satellites of which three have been placed in space.”

The BRAHMOS-M with a weight of 1.4 tonne for the air force version and 1.6 tonne for the navy version will be a breakthrough. “We expect five BRAHMOS-M to be carried by Su-30 (two each on the wings and one on the belly), and two each missile with the Mig-29K and the fifth generation fighter aircraft being co-developed with Russia.” Moreover, in addition to the steep-dive capability with Block-III LACM, there will be Block–IV LACM with a “surround capability, to hit hidden targets laterally from the side of mountains.” BrahMos’s own research team at Hyderabad is already working on Block-IV LACM. Thus, “BRAHMOS-M is ready to be moved from the drawing board to real work once the government gives the green light.”

\To stay ahead into this century, BrahMos envisages a hypersonic engine to replace the present supersonic. “It is envisaged to provide speed of Mach 5. It will follow different aerodynamic laws; and have different propulsion, materials, electronics, data links and suppliers,” says Mishra adding that, “We (BrahMos and DRDO) are already working on the engine and hope to test it in five years.”

What about exports, was the parting question. Sudhir Mishra replied with confidence: “India and Russia as equal partners have cleared six to seven friendly countries for BrahMos exports. It is up to the Modi government to take the call. BrahMos Aerospace is ready to deliver.”

[nash]

We expect five BRAHMOS-M to be carried by Su-30 (two each on the wings and one on the belly)

5 per MKI ... , i thought it will be 3.

It will wreck havoc in war

[Kersi D]

We expect five BRAHMOS-M to be carried by Su-30 (two each on the wings and one on the belly)

..... if

5 per MKI ... , i thought it will be 3.

It will wreck havoc in war

...... if it manages to take off .........

[member_23370]

5 is uber optimistic 3 most likely.

[jamwal]

A miniature version with ~100 Km range maybe. Even without booster, the missile is too heavy.



What's the news about Pragati missile ?
Is that article just a sales pitch or something serious. This missile hasn't been tested adequately or inducted by Indian army. Why'd anyone show interest in purchasing it ?

[Thakur_B]

..... if

5 per MKI ... , i thought it will be 3.

It will wreck havoc in war

...... if it manages to take off .........

Those stations are cleared for KAB 1500 bombs, they'll do fine.

[Singha]

a ARM seeker for such a weapon will make it useful to attack IADS network nodes. and ship radars as well. a few could be fired interleaved with regular brahmosM. when the ship radars inevitably light up to track and target the inbounds, the ARM seekers will get the target bearings......a few could be fired few minutes ahead and from radar return none can guess which are ARM or HE as they all look same. so enemy will have to play a guessing game whether to keep radar off or on.

[srai]

A miniature version with ~100 Km range maybe. Even without booster, the missile is too heavy.
...

Definitely! A "mini" version of Brahmos-M with a length of 3.8m, weight of 700kgs and a range of 80-150km would allow it to be carried in internal bays as well as by light aircrafts and medium helicopters.

[Austin]

A combination of IIR + Radar Seeker + ARM all 3 types into one system would be redundancy at many levels and hardened against jamming and atmospheric issue.

[Thakur_B]

A miniature version with ~100 Km range maybe. Even without booster, the missile is too heavy.
...

Definitely! A "mini" version of Brahmos-M with a length of 3.8m, weight of 700kgs and a range of 80-150km would allow it to be carried in internal bays as well as by light aircrafts and medium helicopters.

That can be achieved simply putting a MM wave or IIR seeker on top of DRDO's NGARM. Ramjet motor won't provide much of an advantage in that size, weight and range.

[kit]

the brahmos M will definitely a game changer in tactical warfare... surgical strikes here we come ! ..who can ask for a better scalpel than the brahmos

[Singha]

Ahuja sir has a long list of bad guys to beat up using 5x loadouts on the MKI.

[dinesha]

Tactical Missile Pragati Readied for Export
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 508393.ece

BALASORE: After Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos cruise missile, which has drawn the attention of a number of countries for its kill precisions, India is now readying its home-grown new tactical short range surface-to-surface missile Pragati for export purpose.

Defence sources said having a strike range of 50 km to 150 km, the missile has quick reaction from command to launch in ripple firing mode. The missile is small, lean and slim to achieve better and high manoeuvring capability in mid-air which the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) expects would enhance interest among importing countries.

Earlier, apart from BrahMos missile, the DRDO had announced that the surface-to-air short range missile Akash can be exported. Now, the DRDO is getting ready to export Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, Prahar class of missiles and a number of other systems.

A defence official said Pragati, a variant of Prahar missile, was first displayed at a defence exhibition in South Korea in October last year. “Many friendly foreign countries inquired about it and envisaged interests. The Government has approved to export the missile which is best among its class worldwide,” he said.

However, the Pragati missile system is developed to provide Indian Army a cost effective, quick reaction, all weather, all terrain, high accurate battlefield support tactical system. Capable of carrying different types of warheads, the missile will operate as battlefield support system.

The missile is equipped with state of the art high accuracy navigation, guidance and electro mechanical actuation systems with latest onboard computer. With high accuracy, Pragati is comparable to ATACMS missile of the US.

The missile is launched from a road mobile system, which can carry six missiles at a time and can be fired in salvo mode in all directions covering the entire azimuth plane. The system, which is capable of carrying conventional warhead of 200 kgs, has all weather, all time operational launch capability.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and DRDO chief Avinash Chander said in order to fully exploit and harness the potential and make it economically viable, it is essential to create a credible export market for Indian defence products.manoeuvring

[pankajs]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 3h 3 hours ago

BEL and BDL both have to outsource much more work on the Akash SAM. Demand for this system seems to be growing significantly.

[member_28714]

Ahuja sir has a long list of bad guys to beat up using 5x loadouts on the MKI.

hmm... so one MKI per Chinese airfield. That sounds like overkill already.

[member_20453]

1 MKI per airfield, let's stop day dreaming, air fields are extensive and require a collossal amount of ordnance to render effectively ineffective. Unless the Brahmos is nuke tipped. It's quicker to level a air field fast with a couple of batteries of Pinaka Mk-2 / Prahaar/Pragati firing multiple salvos with wide spread defrag, cluster and Incendiary warheads and few brahmos to hit at key command nodes and radars. And then it is possible to render an air base inactive. What is needed is massive non repairable damage to all runways at multiple spots, damage to aircraft, fuel trucks on fire. PLAAF bases have hangers built into mountains, so such tunnels need all their exists and entrances bombed out (thermobaric warheads).

I would say, an entire properly armed squadron + some ground based launches to take out a massive large scale airbase.

[nash]

1 or 2 MKI per air field will be enough to take out enemy air defense, control tower and if possible then put couple of holes in ruwnay. But to level an airfield best will be a sqd. of MKI with 3-5 Nirbhay each.

[member_28714]

@ Septimus, think airfield, not airport or airbase. Biiiig difference. 5 Bramhos M is 1 tonne of charge. Its surplus to take out the control tower and destroy the runways. Leave the SAM system alone. With 300km Bramhos range, the MKI's dont need to be anywhere near the airfield to fear their SAM's. Ok, if one wont do it, maybe we need two.

I am just salivating on the massive change in strike firepower when this mijjile comes into ops.

[Philip]

I think that the 5 are the BMos-M,not the std. air-launched version which is to be tested shortly. Until BMos-M arrives ,we will have to manage with the std. version carrying 3 missiles. In the future an Super-Sukhoi carrying 5 BMos-Ms,with a stand-offf range of 300km+ would be a fearful beast,with far greater strilke capability than any Rafale.What plans the IAF/DRDO have for BMos-M on the Rafale would be most interesting.If our medium strike assets,MIG-29UGs,M-200UGs and Rafales are also able to carry upto 2 BMos-Ms, Quite some firepower what?

[kit]

I think that the 5 are the BMos-M,not the std. air-launched version which is to be tested shortly. Until BMos-M arrives ,we will have to manage with the std. version carrying 3 missiles. In the future an Super-Sukhoi carrying 5 BMos-Ms,with a stand-offf range of 300km+ would be a fearful beast,with far greater strilke capability than any Rafale.What plans the IAF/DRDO have for BMos-M on the Rafale would be most interesting.If our medium strike assets,MIG-29UGs,M-200UGs and Rafales are also able to carry upto 2 BMos-Ms, Quite some firepower what?

+1 .. we really need like buttons aka FB ! ..technology is evolving at a rapid clip ..india probably needs more fighters out there not necessarily Rafale !!

[kit]

just a squadron of MKI s with Nirbhay and Brahmos M can sanitize an entire region

[shiv]

Has nobody read Jagan's book?

Runways need to have holes put in them in several places. That will knock them out for one day. Overnight they will be repaired. they have to be taken out again. And again and again, all the while dealing with attrition if you are sending a Sukhoi each time. Better use Brahmos/Prithvi alone in salvos and take out runways within 300 km once every day

[NRao]

Can we not get those guys who are repairing, while they are repairing? Equipment and all?

Just a thought.


However, so say a 15 day war, 20 air bases, 3 missiles each per day ..................................

[ramana]

GD, One of the tri-service roles for the Trishul in the IGMP phase was a long range ARM role.


That is why uncle takes out the hanger/pens with deep penetration warheads. The Brahmos with its terminal guidance should be able to achieve the right angle of attack to do the job.
If the runways are attacked they ge repaired with quick setting concrete.
So both have to be done to render the airbase useless.

[member_28722]

@ Septimus, think airfield, not airport or airbase. Biiiig difference. 5 Bramhos M is 1 tonne of charge. Its surplus to take out the control tower and destroy the runways. Leave the SAM system alone. With 300km Bramhos range, the MKI's dont need to be anywhere near the airfield to fear their SAM's. Ok, if one wont do it, maybe we need two.

I am just salivating on the massive change in strike firepower when this mijjile comes into ops.

Unfortunately 5 is too less sir , you need at least 6 for the runaways (there should be at least 2), 1 for the air tower, 1 for the tank farm, 1 for other facilities, 1 for power structures, 4 for any hardened shelters. We can't assume they all hit, so we need around 25 missiles to ensure closure. So 5 MKI per airfield.
Also Brahmos-A is 2.5 tonnes, is it even possible to shrink the weight down to 1.5 tonnes without reducing warhead?

[ramana]

George, Google for blast radius of a Mk84 which is a 2000lb weapon. Not enough to take out an airfield.

[JTull]

Prithvi with 1 tonne fragmented warhead and depressed glide trajectory will do the job of taking a airstrip out of use. Even the first land-attack Brahmos version had anti-radiation capabilities so any air-defense assets can be taken care of by a salvo. Then a flight of Su-30MKI destroy even the biggest airbases (think Sargodha). Without the tower, power supply and air-defense, even the surface-to-surface missile units there can be suppressed for rest of the 15day war.

[Victor]

...... if it manages to take off .........

At a weight of 3k lbs each x 5, it will be at max loaded weight (15,000 lbs) so it will take off but with half the fuel and no AA weapons. It will also fly like a sick cow. It's like saying I can carry 100 lbs. Yeah but how fast and how far? Each of the Brahmos Ms will be about the size and weight of Klub--20' & 3,000 lbs. It surely can carry 5 but I'd be surprised if they did more than 1 or 2 in real life to make the aircraft capable of coming back in one piece. Of course, this is all aimed at China since all of pakiland is covered from within Indian territory. Still, Brahmos-capable Sukhois in Andamans and Assam would be a daunting prospect no doubt.

I guess we are toying with the full-size beast for now. But it was talked about 5+ years ago so wonder why we haven't had a flight test yet.

[Singha]

missile truck role is also possible when launching from sanitized airspaces.

[tsarkar]

Runways need to have holes put in them in several places. That will knock them out for one day. Overnight they will be repaired. they have to be taken out again. And again and again, all the while dealing with attrition if you are sending a Sukhoi each time. Better use Brahmos/Prithvi alone in salvos and take out runways within 300 km once every day

The only realistic post among the last two dozen.

Airfield busting has evolved significantly since Thunder over Dacca by First Supersonics. (BTW that article should be mandatory reading for Ajai Shukla and anyone before that person is allowed to post or publish anywhere on IAF).

There are specialized Anti Airfield weapons. The Israelis achieved their magical destruction of Arab airfields by using an under development French weapon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_Durandal

As a simple crater in a runway could be just filled in, the Durandal deliberately utilizes two explosions in order to displace the concrete slabs of a runway, damage that is far harder to repair.

It was used by the USAF in Desert Storm, delivered by F-111E's of the 20th Fighter Wing operating out of Turkey. 20th Wing flight commander Captain George Kelman said "there is nothing better at destroying a runway than a Durandal."

the prototype French/Israeli anti-runway weapon program which actually cratered Egyptian runways in 1967 is related but distinct from the Durandal

While the Saudis gifted Mirage 3 for Pakistanis before 1971, they forgot to gift weapons. Anyways, we got them with Jaguars as well as these ones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAP_100

Then we got these with the MiG27 & Su-30s http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... B.jpg.html

Can we not get those guys who are repairing, while they are repairing? Equipment and all? Just a thought.

Good original thinking here.

We use these http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLG_66_Belouga

Weighing 305 kg, it has a cylindrical shape and measures 3.33 meters long with a diameter of 36 cm, 55 cm with the tail . It carries 151 submunitions versatile unit mass of 1.3 kg and with a caliber of 66 mm (hence its name) into three categories with a total mass of 195 kg:
Type AC antitank effective against armored vehicles
Type EC, fragmentation grenades against vehicles, equipment, and an anti-personnel role
Type IZ area denial, to destroy the lining of the channels, then against the runways and road junctions and can explode several hours after their release , .

After release, the platinum hook is ejected late, then a parachute is taken to slow the munition. The munitions are then ejected by successive rings, with the ability for the driver to choose (in advance cab) length of the area to be treated is an area 240 meters long and 40 wide, 10 000 sqm area itself 120 m to 120 of 5000 m². It can be carried by most combat aircraft of the French Air Force , the SEPECAT Jaguar , and the Mirage 2000 , able to carry four of the bombs

[tsarkar]

The mother of them all is http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/ind ... rheads.jsp

The Runway Denial Penetrating Submunition warhead is designed and developed to neutralise hard targets like runways, administration and industrial complexes and marshalling yards. Prithvi missile, both Army and Air Force versions have been introduced into the Services.

It should be this one http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... arhead.jpg

BrahMos & Prahaar/Pragati cant carry such large warheads, so it has to be Shourya going forward. Anyways, Shourya was tipped to replace Prithvi.

[Thakur_B]

GD, One of the tri-service roles for the Trishul in the IGMP phase was a long range ARM role.

I wasn't aware of such requirement. Any more details about this ?

[member_23370]

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=21404

TSS report says that A-4 has been inducted? I thought it would be inducted after canisterization? What gives?

[Singha]

Airbase does not need large warheads but many small accurate ones due to huge area

Other option is b2 dropping off 80 jdams. That will work too.