Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

[Lalmohan]

simple saars - stop speaking english

[JE Menon]

And start speaking Inglish

[Vayutuvan]

...to being the dominant influence peddler by hanging onto the coattails of the US & then continuing to shape American views.

Really, really? That is news to me. What exactly is their influence on the world today? They are down and out and nobody trusts them. All of us know President Obama's contempt. As Rajeshji said, it is hard and time consuming to build up but easy to crash and burn. Guess what, India is on the path of ascent. But long before we see even one tenth of UK's development today, we will see UK in the dumps.

[Karan M]

That is the primary question - can you admire Kipling's verse while realizing how he is constructing the role of the "east" as a devoted servant in his "East is is East" verse? Someone who is doing this, is already halfway through accepting or tolerating the very idea of subservience - if it is packaged nicely in golden verse.

Hmmm....where exactly in "If" is he doing any of this? I do think that you are protesting too hard...
Seems to me that almost half of this stuff which you accuse others of doing seems to be only in your own imagination..

You might find it amusing, and as expected your reaction is more defensive of your justification of separation of enjoyment from content.

Its not defensive at all...it was actually quite exact & appropriate regarding your apparent tantrum at other persons who could appreciate a literary work or figure without getting into each and every issue regarding that "literature" or anything and every regarding the person/literature

By your standards, if I have to read a research paper from Harvard I have to contemplate the impact of the institution in breeding unethical businessmen who may have been involved in the financial industry collapse..

Or if I find something interesting in how the German Army organized and fought WW2, boohoo...I have to give a PC shout about the atrocities of the WaffenSS..

The list doesn't end does it.

Did you ever point out the imperialist dogma and degrading model sought to be imposed in the last few lines of the "east is east" verse to anyone else - at school, at home or your next generation - while showing your delight in the "verse" and the pure literary joy of the verse? I do find much greater anger, and a much quicker response against any direct criticism of English literature as text that pushes for acceptance of British/white/Christian supremacy - from supposedly extremely aware Indians - than they are in exposing or pointing out these "insidious" stuff to others in the appreciation societies.

If I did point this out, what do you or don't you know about it? Besides which are you the self appointed of Indian nationalism on the internet? I find your assumptions about folks you don't even know, amusing. Especially since you have parked yourself in the very midst of the western imperialists and are happily eating off of them. Two can play at this game.

Second, if you do find much greater anger from Indians that question criticism of English literature & its contribution to western hegemony, do something about it. Like I said, create a site, not some amateur blog, and be prepared to spend some serious effort combating this perception. Otherwise, you lack any locus standi to jump down other folks throats for not being very caught up with combating "western hegemony"...hard for the rest of us, to worry about all that when India's own issues take precedence.

As it happens, I found both Blyton and Lovecroft, rather poor literature.

Sure you did. But thats your opinion. Didn't see any books with "Brihaspati" or "Jupiter" or "Gas Giant" in any book store yet. If I do, and see huge debates about it, I might be willing to take your opinions on what constitute good literature (or not) under advisement...

Again a matter of opinion, and compares nowhere in the genre with Bester, or a Card, or Zamyatin, or Haldeman - if you are looking at scifi in the backdrop of a militarized state.

Gee, how educative...I quote one example...and you have to "one-up". Is that supposed to be impressive? Are we going to be comparing Nebula awards next.

Besides which your opinion is equally countered by those who enjoyed Heinlein (or were repulsed by it).

Conan is supposed to have popularized the sword & sandal genre. Again, an American - the author died young. If you read his books, its often a simplistic paean to some pagan glorious western culture, but he did make an occasional effort to research about other non western cultures (Khitai = China, Vindhyas = India and so forth).

Conan is an epitome of enjoyable literature for you? Of course, its a matter of personal taste.

LOL - did I say Conan was enjoyable anywhere above? You seem to have serious issues with reading comprehension - talk about being defensive, and trying to score points where none exist! Read it again "Conan is supposed to have popularized the sword & sandal genre."...and "If you read his books, its often a simplistic paean to some pagan glorious western culture".

This is supposed to be me finding it enjoyable!

As regards personal taste, I am sure none here can compare with your glorious personal taste, with what it must have traversed, but then again, who's trying.

No one is asking to be isolated [there goes the subliminal message again - if you are not appreciating and enjoying what English literature dishes out - you are in a hencoop]. What I responded to - was the prompt putting up of the "good English heart" behind an author otherwise openly and viciously imperialist and racist in his texts, and whose that particular side was simply being highlighted by a poster.

My goodness, subliminal messages now! My, my - the powers that I have. Corrupting the innocents of BRF, all decked up in my regulation Clive era uniform.

Lets see - so we are communicating in a language, invented by the openly and viciously imperialist Brits, but that doesn't bother you. But it does bother you if someone points out the common sense fact that given that we know the language its up to each person to see what literary works were written in it & enjoy them as need be. Seriously...the irony in your own position is lost to you.

Seriously, its ok to have a bee in your bonnet - everyone does, as you quite ably demonstrated by taking the Noor Inayat Khan angle OT (I wonder how viciously imperialist and racist that girl was, as she was being tortured to death), but dear sir, when you abrogate yourself the privilege of all that is good & proper....sorry, you aren't going to convince everyone else.

One cannot help sensing a sense of identification with the British, a subconscious sympathy for and acceptance of the totality of the identity - helped along by the supposedly brilliant literary flourish.

LOL, at both your chutzpah & amateur pisko-babble. So one doesn't agree with your histrionics regarding a bunch of dead Brit authors - some of whom (ouch!) were pretty good at writing (if not much else) & one automatically has "sense of identification with the British".

Dear sir - spare me your psycho babble - please. Most folks here (and elsewhere) were countering the Brits quite effectively without having self proclaimed experts like you arrive, with your oh so developed literary taste & gilt edged nationalist credentials (cough, cough). We'll get by without you as well..

If folks are serious about this - start a website - not a blog, about deconstructing British authors of the Raj, pointing out the more obvious racist swipes & such like. Thats useful.

People who read these books & miss the subcontext may be helped. People on this website though, are unlikely to be at that level. We crossed that bridge a long time back. We can read Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes and appreciate it, while rolling our eyes at some of his fantastical rubbish about the Lost World (masala fantasy at its worst). Bottomline - there's no standard appreciation society here, if that's what you are worried about.

I am not worried. Thankfully - a large number of Indians do miss out - out of necessity, the so-called literary brilliance of the English. Those who are so confident of having crossed the bridge, might be the most vulnerable actually. Those odd pieces of biographical information, or the logic of forgiving an inherently genocidal ideological bias because of literary brilliance - pave the way for softening resistance. That appreciation of literature for literature's sake, often covers for an acceptance of the values and perceptions of the admired sources.

LOL - so lets see here. A practical call to arms re the website? Ignored. Too much effort, and too much work clearly. Better to sit and engage in idle banter & crocodile tear coated worries about "the confidence of those who crossed the bridge".

Tell you what dear Brihaspati, you can save our souls, once you cross the bridge by doing something practical about it...like actually proceeding on some practical lines, as versus sitting in UK stan or Amreeka stan...and covering your guilt about us poor, at danger Indoos, by solemnly warning us.

And regards "odd pieces of biographical information" - dear sir, I couldn't in any way, compare with you. You, in your own words, are literally a renaissance man. Need one quote your own snippets to you?

By the way - there has been a lot of work on how the very sense of literary appreciation is constructed, by early or educational conditioning. If you write out the texts you "appreciate", and note where you first encountered them - through whom and in what environment, you will see a pattern of selection, often guided by your school, adult opinion, and so-called "peer reco", which agin takes its cues from other selectors.

Actually, very little about my "literary appreciation" (seems overly formal for something as simple as liking a few works/books) is guided by anything formal.

I rarely hear appreciations of Quincey's confessions of an English opium eater, for example, or the peculiar ref to India in Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover, or George Ade's stories of benevolent assimilation, or Howard Crosby's Swords and plowshares, or Dean Howell's between the dark and the daylight. PS : forgot to add Steinbeck and Grapes of wrath, or even Cranes careful explorations in the red badge of courage. How about Jean Rhys?

Perhaps because some of these books were not to one's own tastes for instance! Lady Chatterley's lover was a particular favorite for some folks in earlier days, I doubt they particularly cared about the intellectual claims of having read it....but their aims were very different. I believe they got by with other "substitutes" later.

Seriously, overanalysis....is all very good, but no wonder you are jumping at shadows.

A good test for me has always been to ask for the books of Mark Twain that one appreciates, it inevitably shows up the guided nature of most English literary brilliance appreciation tours.

Oh sure.

[Karan M]

...to being the dominant influence peddler by hanging onto the coattails of the US & then continuing to shape American views.

Really, really? That is news to me. What exactly is their influence on the world today? They are down and out and nobody trusts them. All of us know President Obama's contempt. As Rajeshji said, it is hard and time consuming to build up but easy to crash and burn. Guess what, India is on the path of ascent. But long before we see even one tenth of UK's development today, we will see UK in the dumps.

If you do some digging around in this topic (there are a lot of retd USG mil/Govt types on the 'net and elsewhere), you'll see the US allies are ranked in a sort of precedence...and the first amongst equals are the Brits. They have a disproportionate say in terms of how the US applies its power. For countries like Indo-Pak, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the initial perception (and even many decades thence) was built up British advisers working to give USG gyaan about how the Indians should be handled.
The UK also promptly goes along with all of the US's wars - to maintain this so called "special relationship". Its also the only country which has a functioning nuke deterrent supported & partly maintained by the US.

If you look at many industries - the UK still manages to exert a fair bit of influence. Despite everything, they do have a presence in arms and associated industries, and finance. That still allows them to play as influence peddlers.

A world without a powerful UK would however, I believe, be a better world. They have simply meddled far too much and without any sense of ethics. The Mao-Mao incident makes the stomach turn. Now think of what they would have done in 1857.
In Sierra Leone, General VK Jetly all but accused the Brits of being involved in the diamond trade and hence sabotaging his tenure.

India is on the way up, but seeing the so called rise, its going to take decades at the very minimum, and nor would I dismiss the UK so easily. They are masters at divide & rule and finding ways to stay relevant. They have become addicted to power and won't let it go easily. Spycatcher has a fascinating bit about how badly the CIA folks treated the MI6 chaps early on (Obama is far more polite) but these guys sucked it up and became a well petted poodle.

If you want some schadenfreude, youtube some shows where they show the UK Society. Its as far away from their so called stiff upper lip as possible. Their welfare state has bred a bunch of useless underclass yobs (the local term I believe) who are busy making the Brits tremble & of course, there are the Pakistanis.

[Karan M]

Killing others and viewing them as lesser beings is bad for any era. It does not need a genius to figure it out.

And who is supporting these killings etc? And what relevance does that have to what you said earlier and what anyone is saying in this thread? Seriously, you are just posting a non sequitur.

[nakul]

Killing others and viewing them as lesser beings is bad for any era. It does not need a genius to figure it out.

And who is supporting these killings etc? And what relevance does that have to what you said earlier and what anyone is saying in this thread? Seriously, you are just posting a non sequitur.

Its got everything to do with the killings. Just like jehadists find solace in the koran's permission to kill kaffirs, these brits use the racist theories to eliminate lesser beings or to "civilize" them. Seriously, do you believe that they would not have behaved the way they did if not for their superiority justifications. The Brits themselves condemn Hitler for his superior Aryan race theory but turn a blind eye to their own. Its like anti semitic beliefs of hitler had nothing to do with the holocaust.

[Karan M]

And start speaking Inglish

Exactly. I find some of the worries regarding the Brits overwrought. If I go to the other forum and see what Vivek Ahuja is turning out in terms of milfiction - it brings 90% of the stuff written by Brits or American milauthors to shame. He is doing so in English.

I think that will be our ultimate revenge. The day when we "own" both our regional languages, as well as English. And make as much money off of it as possible. From cooking shows to storybooks to Rapidex courses.

[Karan M]

Its got everything to do with the killings. Just like jehadists find solace in the koran's permission to kill kaffirs, these brits use the racist theories to eliminate lesser beings or to "civilize" them. Seriously, do you believe that they would not have behaved the way they did if not for their superiority justifications. The Brits themselves condemn Hitler for his superior Aryan race theory but turn a blind eye to their own. Its like anti semitic beliefs of hitler had nothing to do with the holocaust.

Man, are you confused or confusing or what. Once again who is supporting these killings in this thread? Name one person.
If its your claim the Brits used racist theories to support killings, you are preaching to the choir.

PS: Since you brought up Hitler & Brit reaction therein - look up the origins of the term concentration camp. It evokes pretty interesting reactions in Brits when they get all preachy about Bose in WW2. And they pretty much laid the foundations for the AIT.

[nakul]

Its got everything to do with the killings. Just like jehadists find solace in the koran's permission to kill kaffirs, these brits use the racist theories to eliminate lesser beings or to "civilize" them. Seriously, do you believe that they would not have behaved the way they did if not for their superiority justifications. The Brits themselves condemn Hitler for his superior Aryan race theory but turn a blind eye to their own. Its like anti semitic beliefs of hitler had nothing to do with the holocaust.

Man, are you confused or confusing or what. Once again who is supporting these killings in this thread? Name one person.
If its your claim the Brits used racist theories to support killings, you are preaching to the choir.

PS: Since you brought up Hitler & Brit reaction therein - look up the origins of the term concentration camp. It evokes pretty interesting reactions in Brits when they get all preachy about Bose in WW2. And they pretty much laid the foundations for the AIT.

You are not supporting the killings but supporting the literature that is used to brainwash young kids to become sadists when they grow up. Without that kind of stuff being peddled to young brits, they would find it difficult to suppress & kill other races. This is the same kind of material that is still affecting people known as RNI who whitewash British atrocities and term it "sign of the times."

[Karan M]

60 years...

Come on sir 200 years of unmitigated rapaceousness
and another 60 years of instigating an implacable enemy ...

If you think that the implacable enemy aka Pakistan is responsible for even a tenth of the issues that plague India today, then I disagree. The blame for that is squarely at the feet of the kleptocracy run by the first family and all those who have profited by them. The amount of resource diversion that has occurred aka theft over 6 decades, would have enabled India to deal with 3x "implacable enemies" and also cock a snook at many of the the "rapaciousness" instigated issues.

[Karan M]

1.You are not supporting the killings but supporting the literature that is used to brainwash young kids to become sadists when they grow up.
2.Without that kind of stuff being peddled to young brits, they would find it difficult to suppress & kill other races.
3.This is the same kind of material that is still affecting people known as RNI who whitewash British atrocities and term it "sign of the times."

1.Yes, reading Enid Blyton as kids or reading "If" by Kipling turns young kids into mindless sadists when they grow up.
2.Every young brit read these and grew up finding it easy to suppress and kill other races. In fact, the SAS uses Jungle Book as an alternative to jungle training in Borneo.
3. The evil RNIs are truly the bane of India, as versus the Mayawatis, Laloos, Kodas and all the other highly educated custodians of Indian public funds.

Net - the statements you made above are more "intelligent" than your name calling of all those who pointed out issues with Indian roads, as MUTUs and what not. Congratulations! On reaching a new low.

[devesh]

Virupaksha ji,

My point was about the contrary opinions. for some, the "beauty" and "enjoyment" aspect of titillating English literature is too much to be given up on, even if it means they are absorbing subliminal messages that its ok to accept racism as long as it's for "enjoyment"...

but there will be many other to whom this will not be OK. for them, the acceptance of this messaging is simply not a question. the "enjoyment" aspect falls lower on the priority list.

my point was that the "enjoyers" shouldn't be so eager to talk of "regressive" tendencies and "reactionary" attitudes, and accept that there are those don't "enjoy" as much as they do...

[nakul]

1.You are not supporting the killings but supporting the literature that is used to brainwash young kids to become sadists when they grow up.
2.Without that kind of stuff being peddled to young brits, they would find it difficult to suppress & kill other races.
3.This is the same kind of material that is still affecting people known as RNI who whitewash British atrocities and term it "sign of the times."

1.Yes, reading Enid Blyton as kids or reading "If" by Kipling turns young kids into mindless sadists when they grow up.
2.Every young brit read these and grew up finding it easy to suppress and kill other races.
3. In fact, the SAS uses Jungle Book as an alternative to jungle training in Borneo.

The statements you made above are more asinine than your name calling of all those who pointed out issues with Indian roads, as MUTUs and what not. Congratulations! On reaching a new low.

Thanks for the enlightenment. They do become sadists when they shoot and kill unarmed civilians. If you haven't read your history, the British ensured that English language was pushed into the curriculum so that the natives empathise with the British instead of their own countrymen. These people can be called brown sahibs. You don't turn against your countrymen overnight. Just compare this literature to the stuff taught in brainwashed societies elsewhere (take our neighbors where the superiority complex is replaced with victimness and used to justify atrocities since it is merely retaliation against far greater injustice meted out to them.) Just like muslims who has not seen a single jew will speak ill about him, so do the brits who have never left their homeland get all preachy about civilizing the natives.

[Karan M]

There are far too many British writings, movies and reporting from India. Presumptuous and arrogant of them, and also shameless. They even have the audacity and pomposity, as the Economist did, to criticise India for viewing China as a problem for India. And hence possessing missile and nuclear weapons capability. What they are really saying( duh) is that they despise India having its own perceptions of what its threats/challenges are; those should be given by Brits or perhaps the Americans. Not determined by Indians themselves, perish the thought.

Agreed!

The question then is..

Then why allow them in? Who is to blame for allowing Danny Boyle to shoot in India and then do poverty tourism with his handouts to slum children? Masquerading as charity to whit?
Who allows the Economist into India? What prevents us from just banning the darn thing? Are all FDIs going to stop or is the Economist Intelligence Unit so powerful that all the ratings on India will go south?

I am afraid the truth of things is more prosaic - and far worse. Most of our bureaucrats and others who inhabit positions of power don't even have a fraction of the dismay we feel over all these issues. Many are so left of center, they even justify the Brit behaviour as necessary to show us the light. But they'll be part of the money grubbing apparatus that allows these issues to occur even so.

And British industry? Arms deals? Other options for us to make money as commissions. Again, if we were to focus on our MIC, we wouldnt need any of these guys. Seriously. what were the Hawks but a freebie for the UK.

Trust me - if India were to take the hard line - all these guys would fall in line.

[nakul]

^^^

If I lose my house open and someone robs it, it becomes my fault. That is why I call such people RNIs who will blame the weak agaisnt the strong.

[Karan M]

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Oh dont mention it..

If you haven't read your history,

Most of us were reading it when you were a kid. Enough said...

the British ....s.

A lot of huff & puff which everyone knows (which you seem to have recently discovered, hence the burning need to share) and none of which supports any of your original claims against the specific pieces mentioned earlier.

All said & done, your outrage and burning patriotism is all very commendable - we have all been through that phrase - now try spending some time on what other folks are saying as versus viewing everything through your blinkers! You are all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater & if you can't even understand that, there's little you will learn!

[nakul]

Anything apart from getting preachy. How about reasoning against your internal beliefs that what great things that you have grown up with could be devised so as to shape your outlook of the world?

You are all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater & if you can't even understand that, there's little you will learn!

Forgive me, I dont understand your phrase. Please elaborate.

[Karan M]

^^^

If I lose my house open and someone robs it, it becomes my fault. That is why I call such people RNIs who will blame the weak agaisnt the strong.

If you leave your house open in a tough neighbourhood, knowing that it has criminals nearby, and it gets robbed, then you will be told by the cops you are irresponsible. The less charitable may even call you an idiot.

As much as you would call the cops RNIs or anything else.

As regards blaming the weak against the strong - if you think India is weak and lacks even the ability to become strong, then you are clearly projecting your delusions onto a country, which deserves far better than your inferiority complex.

[nakul]

^^^

If I lose my house open and someone robs it, it becomes my fault. That is why I call such people RNIs who will blame the weak agaisnt the strong.

If you leave your house open in a tough neighbourhood, knowing that it has criminals nearby, and it gets robbed, then you will be told by the cops you are irresponsible. The less charitable may even call you an idiot.

Thats what they do and the robbers run free. No need to tell you what the result is. Next time we will hear that it is the girls' fault for exposing her skin or the weak man's fault for not being strong. There is some heavy Afghani stuff being smoked there. Care to pass it on?

[Karan M]

Anything apart from getting preachy. How about reasoning against your internal beliefs that what great things that you have grown up with could be devised so as to shape your outlook of the world?

I am getting preachy?

You are the wannabe enfant terrible (lol!) who calls anyone who disagrees with him a RNI or a MUTU. What have you seen exactly of life, of the world or what things have you even done so far in your existence that allows you to question other folks "internal beliefs", and ask other folks to "reason against their internal beliefs". What are your achievements if any to even posit such questions?

How old are you exactly? I hope you are in your early 20's or late teens, because only then can such antics be excused.

Forgive me, I dont understand your phrase. Please elaborate.

Hmm..You lack the ability to understand simple phrases, but want folks to "reason against internal beliefs"..
Seriously...it would be funny, but its more tragic.

[nakul]

I am getting preachy?

You are the wannabe enfant terrible (lol!) who calls anyone who disagrees with him a RNI or a MUTU. What have you seen exactly of life, of the world or what things have you even done so far in your existence that allows you to question other folks "internal beliefs", and ask other folks to "reason against their internal beliefs". What are your achievements if any to even posit such questions?

How old are you exactly? I hope you are in your early 20's or late teens, because only then can such antics be excused.

Clearly you find someone younger questioning your beliefs as insulting. Try to stay away from internet fora because nobody cares if you are 8 or 80 yrs old. Age != wisdom as the oldies try to shield themselves using age as an excuse. I was expecting something better from you but since you prefer to hide behind you sup-e-riority, I wont bother.

Hmm..You lack the ability to understand simple phrases, but want folks to "reason against internal beliefs"..

English is not my first language.

Added later: Never imagined that some people could equate understanding the English language with intelligence. But what do I know?

[Karan M]

Clearly you find someone younger questioning your beliefs as insulting.

No, I find hormonal drama queens posturing on the internet as super patriots - silly. If you go around acting like Mr Super Tough guy calling everyone and all MUTU, RNI etc as you have been doing everywhere, the question that will be asked is - who are you?

Something you clearly didn't think of...before posturing!

Try to stay away from internet fora because nobody cares if you are 8 or 80 yrs old.

Reminds me of the old cartoon of a dog telling another dog in front of the laptop - hey, on the net, nobody knows I am a dog!

Seriously..

Age != wisdom

In your case, doubly so. There are teenagers who are actual super patriots doing something valuable with their time, as versus calling others RNIs/MUTUs. What's your excuse?

as the oldies try to shield themselves using age as an excuse. I was expecting something better from you but since you prefer to hide behind you sup-e-riority, I wont bother.

Therein lies the difference. I wasn't expecting anything better from you, because it was all too easy to see your manufactured ctrl+c, ctrl+v super patriotic knowledge of social engineering...

Seriously, you neither invented any of those terms, nor do you apparently understand the context, but off you go trying to play judge and jury. Ridiculous.

English is not my first language.

Yet you feel confident enough to go around attempting to insult others, calling them RNI, MUTU and what not when you don't even understand the language that you are utilizing..

I somehow doubt you'd fare better even in your so called first language, or second language.

Now go and troll somebody on XBOX live or whatever it is that is suitably "non MUTU" for you.

[nakul]

Thanks for showing your standards. I don't see the point of continuing at your level. Please take your drive elsewhere. I should not have debated with you if I had heed the following advice

Never wrestle with pigs! You both get dirty and the pigs LOVE IT!

[lakshmikanth]

Karan ji,

I did not mean any offence to you. What I meant was, we have been going too soft on them and in their barbaric outlook being soft == being weak.

The only way to make a barbarian understand and respect you is not to be preachy or accepting. Its by being a ruthless politician.

Your point about taking control of English is the step in right direction. We have to absorb, digest make it our own and control (and rape). That was my point. Never give credit, or give them a stage to spout their BS. As you said a lot of our own DIE morons are doing just that.

Softening attitudes against racist author's like Kipling would only make us more soft and accepting of their world view of civilizing the brutes, and that means if we accept even a bit of what an author says we would be buying into his world view. This is like consuming poison laced candy.

About the English publishing world, there is an author (one of my favorites) who wrote a novel making fun of Kamasutra in mordern day India. He is a very indic author and the novel is very indic, but there were a few phrases on what the Portugese did to Goa and how Christianity impacted Indians and the white man wanted them to be removed. He did not remove it and has been moved to relative oblivion.

You might want to read more about the publishing world by the same author:

http://www.richardcrasta.com/impressing_the_whites.htm

[Karan M]

1.Thats what they do and the robbers run free.
2.No need to tell you what the result is.
3.Next time we will hear that it is the girls' fault for exposing her skin or the weak man's fault for not being strong.
4.There is some heavy Afghani stuff being smoked there. Care to pass it on?

Gee, common sense fail here again.

So common sense dismissed, wimmens skin issue brought in (sure fire debate winner, yessir!), juvenile insult thrown in at the end.

Lets see - talk of reforming the Indian system. Whether it be roads, or the current setup.

Nakul: RNI!!! MUTU!

Somebody else mentions the Brit journos visit India and act as jerks & I respond that I agree, India should also stop having them visit and use strong measures!

Nakul: Brings up another non sequitur of "weak India" being robbed by bad robbers! And common sense measures to prevent robbers means accepting robbery is good!

I mention that analogy is flawed, and that India is NOT weak and India can do better to defend itself.

Nakul: Waaaah!!! Brings up wimmens (emotional issue onlee!) Afghani stuff (good insult in 10th standard!!)

Yes - there is stuff being smoked here. But its probably crack or cocaine or heroin or whatever - and shriman Nakul you are on it.

Get off it, get detoxed, grow up and then come back and debate, without your shaktiman super patriotic underpants or glasses. That may allow you to debate rationally!

[nakul]

^^^

What do saar? If someone whitewashes the text that encourages crime, one has to go down to his/her level to explain it to them. They will probably understand more in their terminology. Probably not worth wasting your time. If someone spends so much time to defend the British, he clearly is more in love with them than a forumite can change his opinion. Please continue the honeymoon. Meanwhile, the brits themselves call their literature racist but RNIs continue to defend it:

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=racist ... literature

[Karan M]

Thanks for showing your standards.

My my ....you certainly want to dish it out, but dont want to take it at all...what happened with all the tough guy talk of RNI this, MUTU that..?

I don't see the point of continuing at your level.

Because you got exposed you mean? Lets be clear here.

On multiple occasions, you have called folks you don't even know, more civil than you, more accomplished than you, who have contributed far more to the forum than you - MUTU, RNI, this, that.

Why?

For all sorts of asinine reasons. Because they didn't like the conditions of Indian roads. Criticized other issues in India today. Something which many resident Indians do.

But you, Mr Super Patriot Shaktiman underpants - thought that was enough grounds to call them MUTU/RNI etc.

In short, you are the perfect example of why Indian nationalists cop it, when engaged in serious debate.

For every ten center-right or right leaning individuals who can reason as to why the present system is flawed and needs to evolve, out comes one teenaged self assigned super patriot like, whose standards of hyper nationalism is above and beyond anyone else's & everyone else walks off in disgust!

And now, with your tough guy act exposed - off you go!

Please take your drive elsewhere. I should not have debated with you if I had heed the following advice

Never wrestle with pigs! You both get dirty and the pigs LOVE IT!

ROTFL - yet one more sophomoric insult. And besides which, you think you were debating! More comedy!

If you thought that was a debate, that just exposes you further and shows how shallow your thought process is, and how little you know of both the topic at hand, and how to engage other folks in conversations!

No, you mischaracterized what I wrote, continued to peddle the same old, same rubbish of RNI this, RNI that, which you dribble over multiple threads & then devolved into your standard M.O. - schoolyard insults (Afghani, pigs, this that) & appeals to emotion (wimmens - molestation).

In short, yes, please take your drivel elsewhere.

Preferably to your local virtual hangout where you can act as Mr Tough Guy (shaktiman underpants) with other teenagers and impress them with your "debating skills" and make comments like "lulz", "you sux, I rulz"...because thats clearly your level.

Who knows, some of them might even be RNIs!!! Real RNIs! You can hope!

[nakul]

You prove me right don't you. Instead of asking the right questions, you veer towards shaktimaan & underpants. Thanks for the laughs

[Karan M]

Karan ji,

I did not mean any offence to you. What I meant was, we have been going too soft on them and in their barbaric outlook being soft == being weak.

The only way to make a barbarian understand and respect you is not to be preachy or accepting. Its by being a ruthless politician.

Your point about taking control of English is the step in right direction. We have to absorb, digest make it our own and control (and rape). That was my point. Never give credit, or give them a stage to spout their BS. As you said a lot of our own DIE morons are doing just that.

And we are in agreement here.

Softening attitudes against racist author's like Kipling would only make us more soft and accepting of their world view of civilizing the brutes, and that means if we accept even a bit of what an author says we would be buying into his world view. This is like consuming poison laced candy.

The point is not to soften attitudes against Kipling etc. The point is to read Kipling, take what you find useful, reject the rest and see what you can do about making sure what was unacceptable regarding Kipling is well known and disseminated.

That means documenting each & every issue re: Kipling or whoever else, cataloguing it for posterity and hosting it on a site for wide dissemination. And getting others to buy into it. In the process, if you like certain things about Kiplings work, do so. That is the point about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If things like Jungle Book, Riki Tiki Tavi add to India's allure, soft power, retain them. If you can make a buck out of getting US tourists to Mumbai shipyard where the ship where the Star Spangled Banner was composed was made....do so. Be aware, but don't lose opportunities.

The other option is the Captain shaktiman or superman underpants approach as Shri Nakul is demonstrating in his youthful way. Call everyone who reads Kipling a RNI. Spittle all over the keyboard, monitor in rage & constant aggression.

Somehow I don't think that approach will work!

About the English publishing world, there is an author (one of my favorites) who wrote a novel making fun of Kamasutra in mordern day India. He is a very indic author and the novel is very indic, but there were a few phrases on what the Portugese did to Goa and how Christianity impacted Indians and the white man wanted them to be removed. He did not remove it and has been moved to relative oblivion.

You might want to read more about the publishing world by the same author:

http://www.richardcrasta.com/impressing_the_whites.htm

I read about Richard Crasta a long time back. I think this is the fourth time somebody is bringing this up in a conversation. Which is why i said earlier that preaching to the choir here by some folks (not you) who think that the other guy needs to be suitably made aware of the evil machinations of the Brit/west ...is a waste of a time. This forum is an echo chamber, as many like minded forums are. We share information, so we are all often on the same page.

The actual fight is out ..."there"...the actual folks, off the internet, or elsewhere on the internet. My point is that if the west will not publish you, what prevents an Indian moneybags from publishing this?

There lies the problem with our current system. Most of our current desi structural folks are only impressed with making money, and will not push the issue.

I know of folks in India who are treading very carefully about many aspects - everything from AIT/western syndrome - for fear of being labeled fundoos.

This is my issue. If we in India can somehow be freed, trust me - these folks outside can do nothing to stop us. Problem is Indians are shackled. And for that, I hold the kleptocrats & politics of patronage in India, squarely responsible.

[Karan M]

You prove me right don't you. Instead of asking the right questions, you veer towards shaktimaan & underpants. Thanks for the laughs

But I did ask the right questions. I asked you who you were, in your jihad to label everyone and anyone as MUTU, RNI...I posited that you were a wannabe tough guy (Shaktiman type) who was all abuzz in his kiddy patriotism!

You pretty much answered that you were! By posting reams of stuff about youthful wisdom, nobody on the net caring about all this etc.

Your answer, its all OK because:



I am glad that you find the fact that you are amusing, amusing!

[Karan M]

^^^

What do saar? If someone whitewashes the text that encourages crime, one has to go down to his/her level to explain it to them. They will probably understand more in their terminology. Probably not worth wasting your time. If someone spends so much time to defend the British, he clearly is more in love with them than a forumite can change his opinion. Please continue the honeymoon. Meanwhile, the brits themselves call their literature racist but RNIs continue to defend it:

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=racist ... literature

My goodness, all that rage, all that super patriotic anger!! All at those people (bad people, sob sob!!) whitewashing Famous Five, Timothy the Dog and what not!! RNIs...

BTW, isn't it past your bedtime yet?

[nakul]

^^^

The usual sign of attacking the messenger instead of the message. Sorry for hurting your H&D. Don't worry about me. No skin goes of my back if an oldie tries to show off his s-e-niority and TFTA english. It seems you have nothing more to say except personal insults. The usual internet rules say that you have nothing left worthwhile but that would be too hormonal for you. What does your dog eaten oxford guidebook to trolling has to add?

[Karan M]

^^^

The usual sign of attacking the messenger instead of the message.

My, my calling others RNI/MUTU were messages? As versus ad hominems?

Sorry for hurting your H&D.

Actually, it seems your H&D is gone....if it was ever there to begin with!

Don't worry about me. No skin goes of my back if an oldie tries to show off his s-e-niority and TFTA english. It seems you have nothing more to say except personal insults. The usual internet rules say that you have nothing left worthwhile but that would be too hormonal for you. What does your dog eaten oxford guidebook to trolling has to add?

ROTFL .....trotting out each & every BRF acronym in an attempt to be tough?

"H&D", "s-e-niority and TFTA"...LOL! Is there anything that you know, that you have NOT copied from the forum?

What a complete & utter joke you are making of yourself, Nakul.

You indulge in personal attacks calling everyone RNIs, MUTUs, ABCDs and who knows what else...and then after your behind gets solidly spanked on being asked who exactly are you to justify your behaviour, off you go whining about "personal insults".

And that apparently is "trolling"..

Here is what YOU were bragging about, about nobody caring who posts what on an internet fora. Figures, tough guy!

Very impressive All of India is shivering.

[nakul]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-illBrEIUcxQ/T ... roll+6.jpg

Which one is yours?

[Karan M]

Which one is yours?

Actually both are for you!

One to show your lawgic ( re: your claims that you can do what you like as nobody cares who you are on a forum: exhibit A - the dogs) and second, to show your true persona as it is with all your keyboard rage (second pic). Sitting with your glass of milk calling everyone RNI/MUTU and going waah waah!

[negi]

^ Btw Boss what are you doing in HAF ?

[nakul]

nobody cares who you are on a forum

You sure do follow my posts in this thread and elsewhere. I am really flattered but it would be kind of you to reveal the reason behind posting your own pics. Is it a case of low self confidence?

[Karan M]

But they are YOUR pics. You admitted as such.

When you informed us:

- Nobody cares about what you are on the forum, anyone can be anything and do anything
- That you are all young & fired up & hence can label anyone as RNI/MUTU with full authority. That being your message etc.

Regards self confidence - lets see, I don't spend my days & nights stalking discussions and calling other members MUTUs/RNIs. Are you having a case of projection?

[Karan M]

^ Btw Boss what are you doing in HAF ?

Topics in other place were moving too slowly and I got caught in this.