India Nuclear News and Discussion - August 20, 2007

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 21 Aug 2007 16:20

and most certainly not with reference to any honourable MP," he said in a message read out by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee in the Lok Sabha.

And they looked around to see if there were any "Honourable" MPs present, in vain.

Sen's clarification failed to pacify the agitating MPs, including those from supporting Left parties, the opposition BJP and some from the UPA, who together ran around like headless chickens and demanded his recall, for having insulted all of them, being dishonourable MPs.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 21 Aug 2007 16:34

abhischekcc wrote:
JE Menon wrote:Commies are being set up. Don't worry. Hopefully they will get screwed royally.
I would jusr lurve to hear some more on this.

They are being set-up to make a lot of noise on nuclear front and create a smokescreen for everyone, while the stuff of real strategic compromise goes in unnoticed under the radar. Even the Chinese are being set-up, they are being given the impression that a status-quo unsettling deal is what is being offered. And the clowns jump at that. The Chinese have thus asked for plenty of clarifications on the nukular deal and they are being offered plenty of versions esp through selective leaks/disinformation from US side. It would not be way off to say that they are spooked.

They have groomed the Indian elite for the last 30 years and are working with them now. The Indian elite of the last 30 years are opening the doors for them without knowing the real players in the global arena. Rest of the Indian educated population have no clue to the dealings.

Ever since Indira Gandhi died, the grooming of Indian elite has intensified. Indians as a nation have always lacked the wherewithal to look at the bigger picture. food security, defence security, and energy security are the three lynchpins of strategic policy and all three are being handed over on a platter.

Handing over energy security by itself is alright but this 'package deal' is completely unsettling and more than bargained for. The communists must ignore nuclear deal and work towards blocking/buttressing fast-paced moves on the other two fronts if they are to retain their status of 'useful idiots'

Once India is all sown up and in the pocket, what awaits the world is ominous.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 21 Aug 2007 16:36

I think this whole deal was orchestrated by the Knight Templars and the Buddhist Order of Silence, run out of a house on the main street in Fukuoka, Japan. See HERE for the approximate location of the headquarters of the conspiracy. The only sign outside is a small arched gateway with an ancient Sanskrit inscription on it, and crossed samurai swords in the courtyard beyond. There is presumably an underground tunnel straight to the Naka River, and out to the Pacific Ocean - actually a strait across which is North Korea. I am sure there is a coded reference to this in Jaswant Singh's famous book, "The Hunt For An Honourable MP"
where a footnote under (where else?) the Preface says that:

Param Vishisht Seva Medal is the highest honour for service, awarded to Babus onlee yaar. The next highest is Maha Vir Chakra which may be awarded postthumously onlee yaar.

The number of people acknowledged as having ASS-e-DUOUSLY read and re-read and proof-read and corrected and sharpened and re-read and proof-read the manuscript itself fills two pages.

Stay tuned. I may manage to get through the next 5 pages in the next week. Fell asleep on page 4, where he was still holding forth on the amazing fact that

I was born in 1938

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 21 Aug 2007 16:45

enqyoob wrote:
and most certainly not with reference to any honourable MP," he said in a message read out by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee in the Lok Sabha.

And they looked around to see if there were any "Honourable" MPs present, in vain.

Hehe. Ronen Sen was making the point that he has not apologised at all, since there are no honourable MPs since the time Phoolan Devi died, and Babloo Shrivastav was forced to withdraw his candidature for an MP election.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Aug 2007 16:54

What exactly is China's contribution to Indian culture???

Making most of the world think that Buddha was a fat, grinning Chinese man?

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 21 Aug 2007 17:24

Suppiah wrote:
abhischekcc wrote:
Much as they hate them, Japs finally dont mind the Chinese simply because it is hard to tell them apart once they start dressing decently and talking Japanese.

Sorry OT.

Really? I have traveled to Japan and worked with Chinese resident in Japan. Trust me... The Japanese know the Chinese. Mind you, this is a Japanese citizen of Chinese origin. The Japanese were very aware of the Chinese. Another time, I went with the Chinese woman to a Japanese restaurant. They almost immediately knew she was Chinese and it took them less than a minute to establish that. Albeit, the Japanese don't care for the Koreans atall than the Chinese. Japan-Korea is like India-Pakistan. China is still held with suspicion and low respect, however, they are mire culturally aware of the Chinese than the Indians But it shouldn't take a lot of effort for the Indians to work with the Japanese. The recently migrated Indians living in Japan have impressed the Japanese and they have a good reputation.

Manny

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Aug 2007 17:49

92% Netizens want MMS to call the Left bluff and dump the commies

The Left Frontâ€™s antics of the past fortnight have found little favour with Netizens. Indians the world over have a word of advice for the beleaguered Congress: Dump the Left. On a TOI.com debate asking precisely that, an overwhelming 92 per cent of the hundreds that wrote in exhorted the Congress and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to go ahead and call the Left bluff.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 21 Aug 2007 18:06

SSridhar wrote:92% Netizens want MMS to call the Left bluff and dump the commies
The Left Frontâ€™s antics of the past fortnight have found little favour with Netizens. Indians the world over have a word of advice for the beleaguered Congress: Dump the Left. On a TOI.com debate asking precisely that, an overwhelming 92 per cent of the hundreds that wrote in exhorted the Congress and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to go ahead and call the Left bluff.

What're the other 8% thinking? Must be PRC/TSP troll bots perhaps..../Sarc off.

TOI seems to be heavily batting for the INC. Was one of the first papers to take the media battle to the left on behalf of the INC. Things get more and more interesting here on.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 21 Aug 2007 18:10

What're the other 8% thinking? Must be PRC/TSP troll bots perhaps..../Sarc off.

REALLY? Would u like to read the past 4 editions of the 123

threads?

Try "Patriotic Yindoos Saving Bharat-Mata From Slavery"

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 21 Aug 2007 18:17

N^3,

Sarc==sarcasm.

Case closed.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Aug 2007 18:33

SSridhar wrote:
SwamyG wrote:How well equipped is India to handle additional (in the future) nuclear waste?

USA, Russia, Australia...all would be happy to get new business; India would be happy to bolster its power generation; but isn't radioactive waste an issue?
Radoactive waste will be an issue, no doubt. The closed fuel cycle will go a long way in handling that rather than letting the spent fuel ods accumulate after being once-through. However, the wastes will still have to be handled after Pu extraction.

Once we have the waste it got to be dumped. The danger in India is that such waste disposables would be handled little more slyly that out in the West. The common man is probably not going to be as much aware or concerned. And hopefully there are political parties that keep this in the front burner.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2007 18:54

Swamy Oh!... G, don't worry has curry... India have more advanced BARC's waste management and storage system that even UNkill wants to know.. Obama really need that technology from Indians.. meaning the whole 3 stage cycle, once BARC implements, is exactly needed by the world.

Again.. the most important piece of argument should be, if we get due royalty and business for those reverse technology transfers, and we sincerely do/done the IPRs and patents.

We desperately need the Plutonium waste dumped and still being dumped and still UNkill facing problems to store.. those waste materials.. nothing but Pluts.. but there is a clause that should have entered in the 123.. India has the right to choose what type of waste materials, and its age. Per RC, we would want those already spent and aged dumps of plutonium so that its in a ready state isotope to kick start high mega wattage AThWR reactors to make the real fuel for our future, U233.

The biggest catch here is, under this type of selective use of fuel, to support U233 generation for our future ADS, we can give back their spent pluts at a higher concentration dangerously isotoped back (imagine how UNkill will struggle to ship this material back, should there a need arise

).

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 21 Aug 2007 19:04

SSridhar wrote:
SwamyG wrote:How well equipped is India to handle additional (in the future) nuclear waste?

USA, Russia, Australia...all would be happy to get new business; India would be happy to bolster its power generation; but isn't radioactive waste an issue?
Radioactive waste will be an issue, no doubt. The closed fuel cycle will go a long way in handling that rather than letting the spent fuel accumulate after being once-through. However, the wastes will still have to be handled after Pu extraction.

Add to it, the FBR in particular is key to destroying the long lived actinides that make radio-active waste a problem in once through fuel cycle. This compacts the radioactive waste ~100 times smaller.

The problem of radioactive waste is that Uranium that is mined for its useful fissionable U235 will ultimately become radio active waste. The Indian 3 stage fuel cycle is about 10 times more efficient in consuming fissile material in the natural U thus intrinsically generate less spent fuel, of that spent fuel generated the 2'nd stage FBR does the job to kill the harmful long lived actinides (read radioactive material) so that sustainable spent fuel waste-yard can be built and after ~100-200 years the spent fuel is so low in radioactivity that it can be released back to nature.

Final amount of Uranium mining and consequent actinide burning and cool-down disposal yard required for spent fuel depends on actual fuel fraction required for AHWR. Engineering assessment is that Thorium based AWHR can reach self sustaining fuel cycle ( or a bit psoitive fuel breeding).
Eventually the market driven forces will determine when to start repocessing AHWR spent fuel and close the loop. It will be unwise to do reprocessing while fissile Uranium is available in market for say X and reprocessing costs 5X for same amount of fissile fuel. It still does definitely help AHWR compared to LWR because it gets ~75% of its energy from in-situ fuel breeding, thus it generates far less Natural Uranium mining and enrichment trail.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Aug 2007 19:18

Add to the list genetic crops,acquiescing with the US during new international trade negotiations.The list is endless.The key achievement will be bringing India into the US's defence "umbrella" of fellow traveller nations,who agree with its sole superpower status and economic and military world dominance.This deal is merely the thick end of the wedge! In any case if only 3-7% is going to be all that this civilian nuclear power is going to produce,why the indecent haste?I can understand if this deal was going to benefit us militarily.We are a nuclear power and cannot be robbed by force of it.Why do we (Sub-Inspector Singh and the Congress) have the mentality of international Lilliptuians?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2007 19:20

Making most of the world think that Buddha was a fat, grinning Chinese man?

true. superb psyops play and 99% of buddhas even in India have sinic features. for all we know he could have looked like Lalu or Nitish kumar in
reality.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Aug 2007 19:28

The way I think is like this, it might be wrong though; and gurus can correct and enlighten me:

I have a house with a septic tank that can handle 4 people's load. Now my parents and in-laws both are planning to visit us for say 5 years {it might not be the right thing to do

}. Can my existing septic tank handle the additional load? If not I need to increase it without my neighbors or family members complaining. Neither do I want to convert half of my yard into a septic tank. Want the kids to play too

Just a thing to keep in mind when relatives are visiting.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 21 Aug 2007 19:35

To put it more simply: Nuclear waste from one power plant is nuclear fuel for another plant. The septic tank analogy falls short in that there is no reuse like in the nuclear fuel cycle.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 21 Aug 2007 19:36

I can see it now. Instead of Chicken 65 it will be Chicken 239 at the ManMohan 123 "Military" Cafe and Restaurant .

..this uniquely Indian delicacy acquires its unique taste from being baked in a Pu oven until it glows. Diners will enjoy this once-in-lifetime gourmet delicacy sitting in the pale violent glow of the MM123 Military Restaurant. Never again will you taste anything like it. In fact, never again may you taste anything at all.

Wash down your Chicken 239 with the a heavy glass of Mohan Meek-un Light Beer. So light it glows!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2007 19:47

The deal has watchers in unlikely places. Bloomberg has reported that "India's US Envoy apologises to Indian Congress"

I know peolpe dont care much for the Indian MPs, bu they do represent the will of the people havnig been elected. Cant claim biggest democracy and call these folks sham.

Its slippery slope when officials can get away with slighting elected representatives no matter what ever the antecedents of the representatives. It s an elitist mindset. Very castiest.

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 21 Aug 2007 20:50

Sure, but can it be a democracy unless we get to call them names?

Vox BRFi, Vox Dei

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Aug 2007 21:04

Rye wrote:To put it more simply: Nuclear waste from one power plant is nuclear fuel for another plant. The septic tank analogy falls short in that there is no reuse like in the nuclear fuel cycle.

Is there absolutely 100% reuse with 0% wastage?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2007 21:11

SwamyG wrote:
Rye wrote:To put it more simply: Nuclear waste from one power plant is nuclear fuel for another plant. The septic tank analogy falls short in that there is no reuse like in the nuclear fuel cycle.
Is there absolutely 100% reuse with 0% wastage?

You still have inert waste. What is ment is that all the fissile material is exhausted and only inert is left which is easier to dispose off.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2007 21:14

SwamyG wrote:
Rye wrote:To put it more simply: Nuclear waste from one power plant is nuclear fuel for another plant. The septic tank analogy falls short in that there is no reuse like in the nuclear fuel cycle.
Is there absolutely 100% reuse with 0% wastage?

100% reuse will be there.. but 0% waste will not be there.. but again, future designs can think about 100% reuse again!

.

BTW, even human beings can't be that efficient to be having 0% waste cycles within themselves.

.recycle using pigs.. and there on!

enqyoobOLD · Post by **enqyoobOLD** » 21 Aug 2007 21:19

Can the eventual waste dump itself be used as a heat engine and therefore produce power, or split water or something like that?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Aug 2007 21:39

China, Pak thrilled at nuke deal mess in India

NDTV Bureau Report
Tuesday, August 21, 2007 (New Delhi)
The two countries most worried about the Indo-US Nuke deal are China and Pakistan. Both these neighbours are now thrilled, as they believe that if the nuke deal collapses India will be weakened.

The two nations were worried about the closeness between India and the US and that India would grow stronger with the deal. So they vehemently opposed the deal.

It is no wonder then that almost all leading newspapers had scathing accusations against the Left parties in India, which has opposed the deal, calling them a front for Chinese national interests.

The Left parties, however, say that they have opposed the deal independently, based on their own ideology and not as agents of China. So they see Tuesday's newspapers as grossly unfair.

''This is rubbish. We have not done anything for China at all,'' said CPM MP Nilotpal Basu.

It's no secret that the growing closeness between India and the US over the last two years has the dragon very worried.

China wants to be the dominant power in the Asian region and its only counter-balance is India.

In fact some say the Left parties need not have bothered. China would have vetoed the deal at the Nuclear Suppliers Group, which needs a unanimous decision.

But now, unwittingly and without being an agent, the Left has done China's job for them and China is having the last laugh.

It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck but according to commie left traitorous NDTV it is an unwittingly duck-like.

Talk about mutual a$$ kissing.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Aug 2007 21:46

JE Menon wrote:Commies are being set up. Don't worry. Hopefully they will get screwed royally.

But I don't think they are that dumb. They won't pull the government down...

Beijing must have pushed the panic button... Commies are prancing about like puppets under a drunken puppetmaster... Still they have to chose between domestic power continuation and Beijing's orders...

Just the very fact that debate is in public domain, this is likely to end up shutting Commies for good . MMS challenged them publicly and Commie fell for the trap. We should think about few years down the road. Commies, Psuedos Secularists, Leftist all discredited and Indian domestic politics no longer hostage to "minority " pandering. All this will strengthen us internally. The currnet chaos is good .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Aug 2007 22:01

So NDTV is changing its tack. Its now establishment TV. Why have DDTV?

One of our ex-members predicted this just last night when he said "watch how quickly the NDTV and IBN will change tack to support the party in power!"

Hats off to you nameless one!

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 21 Aug 2007 22:03

shiv wrote:This is how the CPI reacted to nuclear tests in 1998
http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pI ... 50804.html

Wednesday, May 13, 1998
No consensus on exercising nuclear option, says Left
EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE
NEW DELHI, May 12: The Left parties have taken a critical view of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Government's decision to conduct three nuclear tests, saying that there is no national consensus on exercising the nuclear option.
``So far, only the BJP has advocated a policy of exercising the nuclear option,'' the Communist Party of India (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India said in a joint statement.
Demanding that the Vajpayee Government adhere to the country's nuclear disarmament policies which have been pursued so far, the two parties called for the avoidance of a nuclear arms race in South Asia so that peace and security is maintained in the region.
``Our concern is that the ongoing process of normalising relations with India's neighbours might be jeopardised,'' said Communist Party of India national secretary, D Raja.
Questioning the decision to carry out the tests at this juncture, the CPM and the CPI said the Government has not given any reasons for this decision nor has it explainedthe international and national implications that would result as a fallout of the test.

Shiv, I don't think the Left has yet made any comment on how this deal would affect India's strategic nuclear program. They have been surprisingly silent about it.

Does anyone have any references to the contrary?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Aug 2007 22:23

Can the eventual waste dump itself be used as a heat engine and therefore produce power, or split water or something like that?

Ahhh...You sneaky Yindoo, you. This heat can be used to refine oil and perhaps even for water desalination.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Aug 2007 22:23

enqyoob wrote:Can the eventual waste dump itself be used as a heat engine and therefore produce power, or split water or something like that?

BARC calls it CHTR.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Aug 2007 22:40

SaiK wrote:
SwamyG wrote: Is there absolutely 100% reuse with 0% wastage?
100% reuse will be there.. but 0% waste will not be there.. but again, future designs can think about 100% reuse again! .

BTW, even human beings can't be that efficient to be having 0% waste cycles within themselves. .recycle using pigs.. and there on!

Precisely, so eventually there is going to be some "cost" in handling the waste. My worry is there will not be enough political or electoral discussions - until an incident and the TV cameras will be there to blah blah blah it.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Aug 2007 22:49

India's nuclear debate

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Aug 2007 22:50

Japan hints at helping India at NSG

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Aug 2007 22:52

[url=http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/21/stories ... 911000.htm] â€œDelay in safeguards talks will not affect nuclear dealâ€

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Aug 2007 23:07

India uranium deal 'to have safeguards'

Uranium sold by Australia to India would not be available for use in weapons, Treasurer Peter Costello said.

Don't provoke Pakistan with uranium sales: Labor

Controversy surrounding the Government's plan to sell uranium to India was taken to a whole new level today, with Labor saying it could affect Australian troops in Afghanistan.

India can be coaxed inside the NPT framework