Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

China's new ASW corvette.Interesting design features to observe,since we are also going to build 16 ASW shallow water corvettes.As earlier said,our corvettes too should have a heli-deck (no hangar) to allow limited ASW heli-ops,as being required for only coastal ASW duties,there will be enough shore facilities within range to support the helos.

Pl. note the quote reg. the US's take on future challenges to its carriers.The key to naval supremacy lies in more SSGNs as one has been advocating.
A new class of nuclear-powered guided missile submarines could be the key to maintaining America’s future naval supremacy as new weapons increasingly challenge the dominance of the U.S. Navy’s aircraft carriers.”
http://strategicstudyindia.blogspot.in/ ... s-new.html
Watch Out, America: China Launches New Submarine 'Killer'
Zachary Keck
May 13, 2015

China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy commissioned its latest anti-submarine ship, according to local media outlets.

As IHS Jane’s and others reported, citing Chinese state-media outlets, the PLAN officially commissioned its latest Type 056 Jiangdao-class corvette last week. TheHuangshi was inducted into service by the PLAN Northern Fleet, the reports said.

Type 056 vessels are 60 meters long and displace 1,500 tons. They “carry one 76 mm main gun, two triple-tube torpedo launchers, and four containerised YJ-83 anti-ship missiles,” IHS Jane’s reported. The report went on to note that theHuangshi’s flight deck enables it to operate a Z-9C helicopter, although the vessel lacks a hanger and therefore its ability to operate helicopters is limited.

Although the Huangshi is the twentieth Type 056 Jiangdao-class corvette that China has commissioned, it is just the fourth of the class to be fitted with towed array and variable depth sonars. This makes it likely that the ship’s primary purpose will be to conduct anti-submarine warfare (ASW).

As IHS Jane’s previously reported of the Type 056 corvettes, “The addition of a VDS will significantly enhance their potential detection capability, specifically when compared to the smaller, rudimentary equipped submarine chasers they are replacing, such as the Type 037 (Hainan) class.”

The launching of the new ships is indicative of China’s growing concern about its paucity of anti-submarine warfare capabilities, particularly further away from its coast. As The National Interest has repeatedly noted, many of the countries locked in maritime disputes with China see submarines as a crucial asymmetric capability they can use to beat back their larger neighbor’s military challenge. Consequentially, there is something of a submarine arms race currently engulfing Asia, with countries as diverse as Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Japan, India, Australia and even Taiwan all seeking to beef up their undersea capabilities.

This is not limited to small Southeast Asian nations or larger regional countries like Japan and India, however. Even many in the United States believe submarines will be essential if Washington is to contend with China’s growing military might. As Dave Majumdar previously argued on The National Interest: “A new class of nuclear-powered guided missile submarines could be the key to maintaining America’s future naval supremacy as new weapons increasingly challenge the dominance of the U.S. Navy’s aircraft carriers.”

In general, the Type 056 corvettes are expected to be increasingly important to China’s navy in the coming years. As Sputnik News, a Russian-state media outlet, has noted, the “Type 056 Corvette was designed in 2012 to replace the older Jianghu class frigates and type 037 model. The Corvette was the first Chinese modular warship that can be deployed as an offshore patrol vessel or multi-role frigate. Designed and built by China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC), Type 056 Corvettes are set to become the backbone of the PLAN, with a class of more than 30 anticipated.”

China’s first Type 056 Corvette entered service in 2012. China has also exported variants of the ship to a number of other countries, including Thailand, Nigeria and Bangladesh.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Vipul »

Anti-sub vessel INS Kavaratti set for launch next week.

Kavaratti, the last of the four anti-submarine warfare class stealth corvettes being built for India under Project 28, will be launched here next week.

Designed by the Directorate of Naval Design and built by Garden Reach Ship Builders and Engineers, the contract for the construction of four P28 ships was signed in June, 2012, with the project priced at Rs 7,800 crore.

The corvette, with a displacement of 3,300 tonnes, has a length of 109.1 metres and measures 13.7-m at beam.The ship is propelled by four diesel engines to achieve speeds in excess of 25 knots and has an endurance of more than 3,400 nautical miles.

Defence sources said that about 90 per cent of Kavaratti is indigenous and the ship is "well equipped" to fight in nuclear, chemical and biological warfare conditions.

INS Kamorta, the first ship under this project, was commissioned by the Navy last year.Kadmatt and Kiltan are scheduled for delivery between 2015-2017.

Launching of a ship means transferring the vessel to water.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Pratyush »

What about the follow up orders. The P 28 was to have been a 12 ship class. So if the 4th ship is getting delivered. What about the remaining 8.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

due to cost the production run has been curtailed to 4!
we really needed another shipyard to be making another 4 in parallel to deliver 8 within a timeline.
or scale up GRSE ..... Cheen is producing FFGs & DDGs at a record pace that rivals the USN/RuN during the cold war. N times our production rate.

take this ship comparable to the Saryu class in size
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_056_corvette

19 are in service, with 5 more fitting out, more than 50 are planned. its been exported to bangladesh, nigeria also.

the 054A ffg comparable to our Talwar class - active 18, building 6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_054A_frigate
between Jan2008 to Jan2015 they commissioned 18 of these ships....we got 3 talwar2s and 3 shivaliks.

the 052D DDG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_052D_destroyer
1 in service, 4 in sea trial, 1 fitting out, 4 under construction.

so they are pipelining 4 parallel builds of each class into 4 CPU cores hence commissioning usually happens 4 ships at same time.

in contrast we are building ships in lots of 3 in serial with deliveries spread out over 3-4 yrs.

this disparity in build rate is very high and extremely dangerous for us. in 2020 they will have 32 DDGs in service.....in contrast we will have 3 delhi + 3 kolkata and perhaps 1 kochi class.

also around 50 FFGs, we will have 6 P28, 6 talwar, 3 P17, 1 P17A (I hope)...=16 (the godavaris, brahmaputras, rajputs will soon be gone).

so the disparity in force levels is 1:3 or 1:4


we need to get pvt shipyards started on building FFGs and ASW ships like day before yesterday instead of sitting on our hands.
GRSE and MDL need to upscale and focus on the DDGs and start on atleast 4 ships of each class in parallel. each class should be 8 ships to have a pipeline width of 4 and depth of 2, before going to next class.

our delivery timelines are far from optimal and 2X that of any good builder in far east or europe. the zoo of eqpt from various vendors we are forced to use due to lack of domestic kit forces these unnatural delays apart from lower productivity.

wrt to INS vishal, we cannot have a decade long circus on it - we need to start INS Vishal and another sister ship of exact same design in parallel by upscaling Kochi so we can get 2 large carriers together in 2025. anything less is a joke.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

CSL has offered to start immediately another IAC-1 (Vikrant class) CV after the launch of IAC-1,as it can deliver the carrier in 4 years time,there being no need for time for a new design,drawings,specs,etc. It says that by the time it has finished building another Vikrant class,we would've finalized the design,specs,etc. for the larger Vishal class.

This is an excellent idea,will have commonality with the Vikrant,give us a 3-carrier capability asap,until we can afford a larger N-powered carrier ,EMALS,etc.,post 2020.

We have to emulate China by having two yards building a specific class of warship,since the numbers will be at least 6-8 for an FFG/DDG and more in the case of smaller combatants like corvettes,etc.
The size of the P-28 really is frigate size ,3000t+ and it should be designated as such.It is larger than our Leander class. The much smaller Soviet era Petyas were also classified as light frigates.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

yes would be good, it will amortize the investments into the IAC1 production workflow and training. vishal will be a whole new deep sea ballgame and cleansheet start...will take time. just finalizing its design and vendors will be a herculean task. massa is the only one playing for decades successfully at the deep end of the pool in that weight class. will they help ? perhaps yes...upto a point...if we buy some JSF and E2 and EMALS and LM2500 plant.

but we will have to pull our pants up and slog like hell just the same.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Pratyush »

The MOD has to come up with a plan, that gives the IN a fighting chance against the PLAN in a stand up fight. No more piecemeal orders. Just decide on the basic configuration of the ship. Order by the dozen, to be delivered in 5 years. At the same time, plan for the increase in the intake & development of the Human Resources.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

I believe the Indian Navy was most powerful in 1985 - 1990ish period, not only in terms of force levels but also in relative to rival navies. Two carriers, 1 SSN, spanking new R class/SNF destroyers, new build FFGs, missile boats etc. Note the remarkable similarity with today's Navy.

1990s was a lost decade in terms of new acquisitions. The effect came in ~2000-2010 period when IN retired huge numbers of vessels acquired in the 1970 to ~1985. All these were previous generation vessels (Foxtrots, Giri class, SDBs etc).

Last ~5 years have seen increase in force levels as there have been only commissionings. This is probably a new peak in terms of force levels and broad capability.

However, between now and ~2020 all late 1980s ships will retire, beginning with G-class and Viraat, thus posing a new challenge in force levels.

On the surface navy side, we have already contracted for two flagship programmes (P-17A and P-15B). Urgent now is Project-28A order for ~8 ships at least. Followed by firming up the Next Generation Missile Vessel.

I hope we build another Vikrant class ship in order to make best use of the LCA Navy - MiG-29K - Ka-31 - MFSTAR - Barak-8 ecosystem.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

The CSL idea is spot on as in the above posts,the commonality of everything from the design of the carrier,eqpt,sensors,aircraft and helos,weaponry,training and cross-posting of crews,pilots and air crews would be almost identical. We will also have a far closer estimate of the final cost and can keep escalation within reasonable boundaries. Most importantly is the shorter timeframe in which the carrier will arrive compared to a much larger N-powered CATOBAR carrier,which will cost almost double that of a Vikrant class CV. The second Vikrant class CV could assist greatly in amphib ops,providing airborne helo assault and strike air support ,reducing that number to 2-3 instead of 4,saving costs as well. In fact,the amphib class could also be based upon the basic hull/deck/machinery/sensors of the Vikrant,which will bring down the cost of that class significantly.

With the decision to upgrade all our naval air stations,islands and the A&N mil infrastructure,LRMP aircraft and land based multi-role strike aircraft operating both from "INS India" as well as these bases, would provide extra support to carrier aviation to dominate the IOR and even conduct/support ops in the contiguous seas like the Indo-China Sea.

There is only one reason why this might not find favour,lack of funds to support another immediate carrier programme,as the key priority as of now is augmenting the sub inventory facing a serious crisis. However,if a compromise is made with reducing the number of planned amphibs (4), then a second Vikrant class CV could start immediately,as the amphib design has yet to be finalised. Even here,the two French Mistrals may be on offer to us,which along with another Vikrant class CV would suffice very well.

PS:We could even buy the Mistrals and lease them to Russia in exchange for more Akula N-subs! :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

>> In fact,the amphib class could also be based upon the basic hull/deck/machinery/sensors of the Vikrant,

yes that is easily possible because it is based on the cavour design which has a narrower flight deck LHD style. it has housing for 325 marines. we just need to delete the vikrant mods and roll it back to the original cavour design which is already operational and proven product.

>> We could even buy the Mistrals and lease them to Russia in exchange for more Akula N-subs!

yes but the french will then renege on support - I saw we keep them for ourselves :rotfl: india buying them might not offend putin-ji and it frees up CSL for carrier work only starting with vikrant#2.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by RKumar »

Having another IAC-1 is a noble idea but we dont have enough infrast, capabilty and capital to support 4 AC at the same time. We can have 2nd IAC around 2025 but what about support ships, subs, fighter planes, crews.

We are doing good at ships, efforts are moving to subs in next decade. + noclear AC.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

The Viraat is retiring within 2 years,so we will have only 2 carriers until a second Vikrant class CV arrives by 2020.The amphib requirement is separate. From latest reports,the Russians mainly want their money back and couldn't care less who buys the Mistrals.If India does,it will be happier still as the warships will not be part of NATO naval forces against it or used by the PLAN in the Pacific.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karthik S »

How about having 2-3 squadrons of long range bombers armed with brahmos. These could be a good defense/deterrence against enemy ships.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

relistically, scaling up our DDG/FFG building powers to have 8 ships in the pipeline is going to take some time, training and funding.

in meantime some quick fixes like the idea of Philip sir to leverge the IAC-1 to build a identical IAC-2 will give us some teeth fairly quickly.

secondly getting atleast one the Mistrals would be good as the Jalashwa to say the least is a bit long in the tooth. this will help as a sea control ship to lead 'anti piracy' and 'humanitarian' task forces in areas like the horn and east africa. if not mistral some reallty cheaper rotterdam class LPD ships will do. cheen has a few of that ilk. no teeth but ok support.

to equalize the 1:4 ratio of DDG:FFG might never happen or take a long long time....so leveling of playing field atleast in our backyard can take form of.
>> [Karthik S] 2-3 squadrons of long range bombers armed with brahmos.
there is rumour that Tu160 blackjack production is to be restarted as Rus needs something to rattle the NATO with and the lumbering Bears dont hack it and are too old now. we should latch on and get say 15-20 of these. a variety of weapons is possible incl nirbhay. they can be jointly used for strategic delivery and naval strike. the USN has latched on to using B1 bombers in concert with CVBGs, they are being reequipped with big AESA radar derived from the sabr/racr of the F-16.

>> SOSUS arrays on the sea beds

>> investing in LRMP and submarines. the C295 can be a capable MRMP. the Rustom2 HALE in maritime role needed to be out asap.

>> stop wasting $$ on apaches and chinooks and worse ospreys that wont scratch our itch. instead get the 60 SH60 that IN needs asap.

>> towed sonars on everything bigger than a mooring tug

>> few more poseidons and Tritons
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

when a supermodel invites a marriage proposal unasked, the answer has gotta be 'yes' -

http://tass.ru/en/russia/792402

KAZAN, April 29. /TASS/. Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu gave instructions on Wednesday to study the issue of resuming the production of Tupolev Tu-160 (NATO reporting name: Blackjack) supersonic strategic bombers at the Kazan aviation plant in the Volga Republic of Tatarstan.

"It is necessary already today to start implementing tasks not only for keeping in good order and modernizing the fleet of long-range aviation but also for reproducing Tu-160 missile carriers," Shoigu said during a visit to the Kazan plant.

The Tu-160 bomber is "a unique plane that has been several decades abreast of time and has not used its constructive possibilities to the full extent until now," the Russian defense minister said.

"No one has devised a better plane in the supersonic category up to date," Shoigu said.

The Russian Air Force currently operates about 15 Tu-160 strategic bombers. The missile carriers are undergoing modernization, which was announced in 2012.

Russia is currently developing a new strategic bomber dubbed PAK DA (prospective aviation complex of long-range aviation). The new bomber is expected to make its first flight in 2019 and become operational in the Russian Air Force approximately in 2023-2025.

According to previous reports, Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu held a workshop on the restoration and maintenance of the country’s long-range aviation fleet. The Defense Ministry said Shoigu has visited the Kazan Aviation Plant and gave orders to furnish the enterprise with new equipment to boost the long-range aviation power.

Ahead of the meeting, the ministry said, Shoigu visited shops of the aircraft plant where the Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 bombers are repaired and modernized.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-411778/

The Russian air force has 13 Tu-160 in service with 14 on order, Flightglobal’s MiliCAS Fleets database shows.

A second phase of modernisation will begin in 2016 with the addition of upgraded Kuznetsov NK-32 engines, Russian news agency Itar-Tass said in December.

The Tu-160 is now Russia's only bomber in active production
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

PLANAF even with awacs and flankers will have a very hard time dealing with blackjacks armed with brahmos, nirbhay, urans and in future the small brahmos-A. also long range radar decoys like mald.

I am saying brahmos-A and urans because sometimes a shower of these small piranha are better than a giant crocodile.

20 tu160 even with 50% availability means we can put 10 in the air and deter anything short of a american cvbg in the entire IOR and malacca region apart from targeted long range raids into the south china sea.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

There are several sqds. of TU-22M3 Backfires available,which were earlier offered and expected to join the IN. However,these were not pursued by the UPA/Cong and these aircraft need substantial modernisation as far as avionics,etc. are concerned.China was trying to grab a large number but Russia wisely stepped back from giving china these. A sqd. of around 8-12 could easily be acquired ,but it will cost money.

Alternatively,as Russia has been doing in recent times,its Tu-142 Bears are being used as intended as strat. bombers,vigorously testing the defences of NATO and the UK in particular.We have several of these ultra-LRMP birds which can be further upgraded to carry BMos and Nirbhay,at least those with life still left in their airframes.A few more to keep the original number intact may also be poss. as Russia has mothballed large number of its strat bombers of all types.

The media report of our sub fleet plans for the future augurs well,but it will take considerable time and money. That there will be 2 classes of SSBNs,an ATV-2 design larger ,double the size of the Arihant carrying at least 12 MIRV tipped BMs. That the next 3 ATV-1s will carry more/double the amt. of missiles as the Arihant and that a series of 6 SSGNs will be built of approx. Arihant size, with a more powerful reactor for higher speeds. This is going to take at least a decade+ to bring to fruition,perhaps during the 2025- 2030 period. It is the shortage of conventional subs that is alarming right now. Apart from the future P-75-I programme and Scorpenes,the IN needs to acquire a few more asap to replace the retiring Kilos/U-209s around 2020. 2-3 more Kilos with BMos and AIP capability would not be amiss,as they would enter service with the least amt. of problems.The DRDO has already tested the UW launch of BMos,but has no sub to fit it on! the first Kilo could be in service within 3 years. The Viet navy is getting all their 6 within 5 years.

The other alternative is adding to the number of Akulas on lease.The Kashalot may arrive around 2017/18 and we could lease out another one or two which are in Russian service after an upgrade/refit. More Akulas will make it easier for support of the SSGN capability and train even more submariners for the indigenous SSBNs and SSGNs being planned for.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Austin »

Strategic Bombers would never be sold they are part of Nuclear Deterrent Triad and is counted under START Treaty much like ICBM or SSBN.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by srin »

It is good to see news about bombers. Despite the success of a bomb-truck like B-52 over a period of decades, it does seem like Air forces across the world prefer multi-role fighters than pure bomb-trucks. I haven't read anything about IAF's or IN's interest or plan for bombers.

At the same time, a Tu-160 or a Tu-22M3 would be a white elephant for the same reason an IL-76 is - lack of spares. These are big complicated aircraft with small production run and spares would be really hard to get when the production run is over. There are only two ways - manufacture one locally (get control of supply chain) or modify a civilian variant (ensure that the spares are widely available) into a bomber. Like the P-8 is a variant of 737.

In the Indian context, I don't see either of them happening for a long time.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Austin wrote:Strategic Bombers would never be sold they are part of Nuclear Deterrent Triad and is counted under START Treaty much like ICBM or SSBN.
counting can be done all they want. but TridentD5 has been sold to UK.

right now I doubt putin sahib is in a mood to honour any treaty with the US. they have spat on his face every day for 2 yrs now.
worse than UPA going after modi.

we are not asking for the KH55 just the plane , rest we will manage ourselves

if you count range as a counter, even a 787 is a strategic weapon and can drop 50 n-bombs anywhere.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by RKumar »

Singha wrote: secondly getting atleast one the Mistrals would be good as the Jalashwa to say the least is a bit long in the tooth. this will help as a sea control ship to lead 'anti piracy' and 'humanitarian' task forces in areas like the horn and east africa. if not mistral some reallty cheaper rotterdam class LPD ships will do. cheen has a few of that ilk. no teeth but ok support.
Mistral is no go, we don't want a circus of different ship, It will be nightmare to maintain and train crew specifically for single ships.

Singha wrote: there is rumour that Tu160 blackjack production is to be restarted as Rus needs something to rattle the NATO with and the lumbering Bears dont hack it and are too old now. we should latch on and get say 15-20 of these. a variety of weapons is possible incl nirbhay. they can be jointly used for strategic delivery and naval strike. the USN has latched on to using B1 bombers in concert with CVBGs, they are being reequipped with big AESA radar derived from the sabr/racr of the F-16.
+1 for strategic bomber but only for newly build one. I am quite sure Russia will demand a leg and an arm for it. We should get all the designs and ToT, import first 8 and build at least 46 with 4-6 planes per year. The reason is do minor improvements as we get feedback and it should solve spare part issues. In couple of years, we will find out which spare parts we need the most. And should work on next generation bomber fixing major short comings in the existing design.
Singha wrote: >> SOSUS arrays on the sea beds

>> investing in LRMP and submarines. the C295 can be a capable MRMP. the Rustom2 HALE in maritime role needed to be out asap.
+1
Singha wrote: >> stop wasting $$ on apaches and chinooks and worse ospreys that wont scratch our itch. instead get the 60 SH60 that IN needs asap.
Like I mentioned earlier, only get chinooks. We need those for moving heavy duty stuff to create infrast in the mountains.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

we should wait for chinese funding to revive the Mi26T production and feed on that much cheaper.
maybe even spares for older Mi26 will get easier to get as the renminbi flow in.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Aditya G »

Ref Bombers:

We already operate several aircraft which are excellent candidates for desi "Long Range Strike"

P-8I: Already equipped for strike with dumb bombs and maritime strike with Harpoons. Should be upgraded with probe & hose IFR and laser designation. If Pakis could modify their Harpoons for land attack why cant we?

C-130J: Ours is a spec cops variant with self defense equipment and presumably satcom.

IL-38SD and Tu-142: why not use these for strike? The latter even has an IFR probe ... if we can upgrade the A&N runways I bet it can fly into eagles nest south china sea. If upgraded with Brahmos they can deliver supersonic pain from long distances.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

but none have a rotary internal bomb bay to haul some serious meat.

P-8I - small bomb bay for LWTs only, no chance of adding nirbhay or brahmos
C130J - this could cart some small missiles underwing. people are playing with dropping small hand held missiles down a sonobuoy type tube also...absolutely no chance of a deep maritime striker
IL-38SD - too old, too slow
Tu-142 - it did have a bomb bay, presumably used for LWT and depth charges now..but again too old. and too slow to escape if chased.

the B1 on the other hand has been modernized and is being readied for bigtime maritime strike role to support the cvbg.

thats the reason why RuN wants the Tu160 onsite despite having a lot of Mays and Bears.

the backfire is too old and out of production for long. plus its range much less.

these are day long missions , one solid strike at long range a day and head home.

C130 being tested with small missiles - some what useful for us , like airdrop paras and then pound the target one round before departing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie2Jc-o4Vrg
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

this is allegedly the bomb bay of a TU160 - two tandem rotary bomb racks filling almost the entire fuselage except the spine area
could be a B52 since cutaways of TU160 show a gap between the two bays at the wing root.

http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs2/13 ... CF2743.jpg
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:counting can be done all they want. but TridentD5 has been sold to UK.
Thats only because UK is part of MTCR and NPT gang , Also UK/US enjoy a very special relationship and both are part of NATO.

We can modify a civil airline but that too assuming boeing or airbus would let us hardwire for nuclear role. Long story short if we want a bomber then we must build it much like China does though its no where close to what the established player have.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Backfires and Bears in the IN context would be used/sold only as LRMP aircraft. Though theoretically they could be used to carry N-tipped missiles,it is v.unlikely that they will be used so. Their extended range and cruise missile carrying capability to destroy enemy task forces/CBGs launching large salvoes of missiles to overwhelm fleet defences is the key requirement. An MKI will be able to carry 3 BMos-M ASMs,while a Bear/Backfire could carry much more.IN's Bears have a 6,500km combat radius.Bears have in the past tracked for sev. hours both USN and RuN N-subs and would certainly be able to track the PLAN's N-subs. It would be interesting to see (if it comes publicly revealed) how effective the P-8Is have been in locating PLAN N-subs.Backfire range is 2500km+,could be adequate with refueling or even stationed in the A&N islands if the runways are long enough.The P-8Is do not carry useful enough anti-ship ASMs,only Harpoon,which is inferior to our air-launched BMos and BMos-M to come,which may not be poss. to be carried by the P-8Is.

The planned and approved acquisition of 4 amphibs has been made,and will be of an entirely new class with the Mistral,Juan Carlos being looked at. Since there are 2 Mistrals already built,with the PLAN taking a dekko at acquiring them,the IN /GOI should seize the opportunity funds permitting. This will give an immediate quantum leap in the IN's amphib capability and prove very useful if also used as an ASW platform. The ships design has also been tailor made to operate Russian KA-52 heavy attack helos for amphib support,in production and could operate any large western ASW/multi-role helo.

If the 2 Mistrals are acquired,work could start immediately on a second IAC-1 design which would also enter service by 2020.Thus by 2020,the In would have at least 3 med sized carriers of around 45/40,000t each with a combine total of 100+ aircraft/helos,plus 2 Mistral amphibs with another 40+ aircraft/helos (they could also operate any STOVL jet like our legacy Sea Harriers/Harriers or F-35Bs in the future). There are approx. 10 Sea Harriers still in storage in the UK. The USMC has heaps which were supposed to retire only in 2030,but due to the F-35Bs arrival,they are planned to retire by 2025.
The IN could cobble up at least 18-20 Harriers for use on Mistrals if acquired which would serve for a decade until the F-35B or equiv becomes available and if STOVL ops are intended beyond that date,when more capable naval FGFAs,etc. aircraft become available on larger carriers.

However,if we go in for an indigenous design based upon the IAC-1 for the remaining two amphibs,with a similar flat top deck design,lifts,ski-jump ,etc,these would ideally be able to operate the NLCA ( even MIG-29Ks if ned be) in the close support role along with heavy assault helos. 2 Mistrals and 2 amphibs based upon the IAC-1 (Cavour based design as Singha I think has said).the smaller NLCA would be ideal to provide close support strike and sufficient integral air defence armed with Astra-1/2 BVR AAMs with 40-100km range.
RKumar

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by RKumar »

It is not about what we have ... but more what we want to have in 10 years down the line as out right purchase and 30 years down the line local solutions. We must not depend on imports forever.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

we perhaps with putinji's blessings we could 'clone' the Tu95 bear and mount a 600km range of the brahmos inside it and nirbhays too.
if we delete the supersonic req, anything will do and the Bear has good range and is proven.
we might even be able to get 15-20 off some boneyard and modernized.

cheen is busy building more and more H6 (clone of Tu16 badger) as their premier missile carrier.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

we could even modernize our existing bears for $1b and repurpose them to the missile carrier role, letting the mays, p8 and later c295 carry the lrmp role.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Austin »

Its pretty much useless to modify a 60 years old design and it would be a case of pig with lipstick.

We can make a decent Turbofan Powered Aircraft call it bomber , The AURV design show Flying Wing Design is something we are aiming for or alteast trying for it.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/06/ ... ns-of.html
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

The main reason why the RuN themselves are operating Bears n the bomber/LRMP role is their massive range and high speed for a turboprop equiv to a P-8I jet. Both have a top speed of approx. 900kmh. The Bears also have sitcom capability. They will be operating for at least another decade in RuN service. I doubt our UCAV will have anywhere the range of a Bear or its massive payload carrying capability.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

Singha wrote:counting can be done all they want. but TridentD5 has been sold to UK.

right now I doubt putin sahib is in a mood to honour any treaty with the US. they have spat on his face every day for 2 yrs now.
worse than UPA going after modi.

we are not asking for the KH55 just the plane , rest we will manage ourselves

if you count range as a counter, even a 787 is a strategic weapon and can drop 50 n-bombs anywhere.
russia can't even manage to provide fixes for mig-29Ks which are paper capability and have zero credible value, has issues with delaying TOT and spares for stuff like T-90 and what will happen if we get strat bombers?the world's most expensive hanger queens, and much gas from phillip about how russia is da best when not even half a squadron will be in flyable condition. :lol:

better to take commercial planes and have TATA/HAL mod them with long range missiles developed on priority basis. those will be more useful and even achievable than these Tu-160s etc which will fly to the edge of the runway and land. no widget saar, russia says they will get us that in two years time. HAL asked to indigenize.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Bade »

Where is this news of IAC-1b coming out of ? Any official outlet or is it just people here planning.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Speculation,but possible.CSL has offered to build a second Vikrant class CV in 4 years time if started after the IAC-1 is launched as the entire plans.knowhow,etc. are available after building the first. The pocess of working out a suitable design for a larger carrier has just been approved,and it has been said that will take at least a decade before it arrives,as it may incorporate N-power,EMALS,etc. With the Viraat to be pensioned off within the next 18 months,we will face a decade before a third carrier arrives,unless we capitalize upon our existing capability of building another IAC-1. With plans for 4 amphib ships too,a second IAC-1 could cover part of that requirement,airborne assault.

However,if this report is true,then we will have to wait another for another desi-built carrier to be commissioned.

Second Vikrant-class carrier to counter China threat: Indian official
Staff Reporter 2015-05-17
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0517000011
An unnamed official from India's Ministry of Defense said that New Delhi has decided to build the INS Vishal, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, with the assistance of the United States, the Times of India reports.

The second Vikrant-class aircraft carrier, the INS Vishal will have a displacement of 65,000 tons, 25,000 tons heavier than the INS Vikrant, the first ship in its class. The Vishal is expected to be launched in 2023. After the ship is commissioned, it will be the largest warship in the history of the Indian Navy. The official said the aim of building the carrier is to prevent PLA expansion into the Indian Ocean.

China has become more assertive in the South China Sea and Indian Ocean since the PLA Navy put the Liaoning, the nation's first aircraft carrier, into service in 2012. It is currently building new carriers and is looking for a place to establish a naval base in the Indian Ocean. New Delhi considers these actions to be a direct threat to India's national security.

After the decommissioning of the INS Viraat next year, the Indian Navy will have only one aircraft carrier, the INS Vikramaditya, in service before the commissioning of the Vikrant in 2018. New Delhi has already approved US$4.6 million for the construction of the Vishal. It will be fitted with an Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System produced by General Atomics of the US.

Ashton Carter, the US secretary of defense, plans to visit New Delhi next month with representatives of General Atomics to discuss the deal
But is this also true? (same websie)
Modi more open to China after US and Japan disappoint
Staff Reporter 2015-05-17
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Bade »

If each carrier's lifetime is ~ 50 yrs before getting scrapped, and the need is 5 carrier in total at any given time, we will need to build one spread over every decade or so. The current IAC-1 took almost a decade. So 4-5 yrs is optimistic isn't it even if it means no design change for a duplicate effort. Not to mention that building another IAC-1 type will drain resources meant for Vishaal or even delay it. Or maybe it is too early to settle on a IAC-2 design depending on projected needs over its operation lifetime and a delay may be helpful while a second Vikrant is built ?

Are Arihant's power core plug and play for carriers with least amount of tinkering required ?
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Picklu »

With the humongous build scale, how is Cheen paying for the fuel cost of new fleet? Or are they merely dock queens?
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by arshyam »

Bade saar, Vikrant was delayed due to lack of warship grade steel, and was subject to imported steel availability. Things speeded up after SAIL developed a local variant and started deliveries. The new carrier won't be subjected to this delay, so hull fabrication at least should be quick. But there are other potential problems like the turbines that come from Ukraine (Zorya, IIRC)
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

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