Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Nov 21, 2015

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2015 20:13

Picklu wrote:NaMo just paid back for the goodwill gesture shown by Ganja on his swearing in ceremony with a return visit. Nothing more, nothing less.

Though It may save Ganja's life, but meanwhile Pakistan looses one card from its hand. Without much to show for.

It actually insulates Modi from the accusation that he is not engaging Pakistan and the Hater of Muslims Murderer of Godhra is out to kill Islam as our Hindu fake liberal Congis say

Also, with no agenda, no questions can be asked on answered on what the agenda was and what was achieved.

I have to admit that Modi is an out of box thinker although I personally would have been perfectly happy if Pakistan was totally ignored. Obviously that is not going to happen. I am hoping that if Turdistan is engaged it will be on our terms

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Dec 2015 20:18

Yaa
Iph they give other kirket teams Punjab Bolis protection, they sure will!
Wait
It was punjab bolis protection last time wasn't it?

Now outer cordon was pak fauj rangers, some bolis kammandus were there too.

Why did the bak fauj provide security, hain ji?
If it is true that this was discussed with the bak-e-fauj at a very high level, then formalized at the NSA meet.
I think it might be because the international relations expert that Raheel Sharif is, wants to show off his good credentials with India too. This does not in anyway bode well for Nawaz.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 26 Dec 2015 20:19

PM Narendra Modi's favourite dish among other delicacies served at Sharif's home

LAHORE: Prime Minister Narendra Modi's favourite dish 'Saag' was among other vegetarian delicacies prepared for him during a lunch-cum-dinner at Jati Umrah residence of his Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharif.
"All dishes, including Saag, daal and vegetable food, were cooked in desi ghee," a source in the Jati Umra told PTI.
He said Kashmiri tea was presented to the Indian premier.Some 11 members of Modi's delegation accompanied him to the Jati Umerah who were issued a 72-hour visa.

However, over 100 other members of the delegations stayed at the Allama Iqbal International Airport.

The source said Sharif's mother also entered the hall where both premiers were holding the meeting along with his other family members."Modi touched the feet of Sharif's mother," he said.Prime Minister Modi today visited Lahore on his way back home in a surprise visit - the first trip to Pakistan by an Indian premier in more than 10 years.

saip · Post by **saip** » 26 Dec 2015 20:32

After Modi's surprise visit to Pakistan, next step is obvious – sustained engagement

What caught my eye is this:

According to government estimates, there were 363 ceasefire violations by Pakistan between August and November 17, 2014. Pakistan, for its part, accused India of unprovoked firing across the LoC.

Freudian slip?

Link

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 26 Dec 2015 21:12

Pakis are master at playing eccentric moves, due to them having non-bania blood. Now they have got their Baap in Modi who can play his moves better.At the moment Pakis have this very uneasy feeling of constantly being watched stealthily by MAD. This is making them shit scared. Look at the kind of hate and contempt they have for Modi, this is not out of bravery but being in a state of panic.
This is what Modi is doing to them (watch from 49 seconds) and there ultimate fear is what happens at 3.50

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Dec 2015 22:08

shiv wrote: I have to admit that Modi is an out of box thinker although I personally would have been perfectly happy if Pakistan was totally ignored. Obviously that is not going to happen. I am hoping that if Turdistan is engaged it will be on our terms

Shiv ji: Look out for Modi's speech at the commanders conference in Kochi it will be clear, what he is after. He has huge shoes to fill for he occupies the office occupied by giants of his party.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 26 Dec 2015 22:21

The Modi visit was obviously planned ahead of time, bad sheriff had to approve it, perhaps the exact day was not known till the last minute. Cannot imagine hundreds of Indians landing without a visa in Lawhore. What was interesting was that the official "minders" from the army were not to be seen. Perhaps because the meeting was in ganja's home ?...and why did ganja not invite the bad sheriff for his grandaughter's wedding ?. Also found it interesting that Raheel is visiting Afghanistan on Dec 27, and his visit was kept open with a 2 week window in mind
http://tribune.com.pk/story/1014204/afg ... els-visit/

Wonder how the conversations would go with Ghani, soon after Modi's visit. Am sure Ghani is all pumped up after Modi and Raheel will not get a warm reception....

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Dec 2015 23:18

Many people are convinced that the PA has somehow been cut out of the loop. I'd posit the reality is quite the opposite.

Where did the whole 'bonhomie' fresh-start thing generated by the Modi's invitation to Sharif for his swearing-in go? Ans: The PA wrecked it overnight on the LoC and wrecked it well, clearly proving to all observers that they exercise a veto if not primary control over all Pakistani foreign relations.

And until recently we had no static line of communication to Rawalpindi. In fact, Ajai Shukla wrote an excellent article on wisdom of nurturing those 'backchannels', if there's ever to be any productive horse-trading.

What has changed? What stops Modi & Sharif from both looking foolish a week from now? I can't say for certain but I suspect this had to do with this -

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Dec 2015 23:23

Bit of googling spit this out. Hope it hasn't already been posted.

Doval-Janjua laid the ground for visit

NAYANIMA BASU

NEW DELHI, DECEMBER 25:
Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Pakistan was not a last-minute decision, according to sources.

Even as the Centre remained mum on the issue, highly placed sources said the Lahore visit was discussed between Modi and Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in Paris earlier this month, when they met on the sidelines of the climate change summit. Then on, it was left to the respective National Security Advisors (NSAs) — Ajit Doval and Nasir Janjua.

In fact, when both the NSAs met in Bangkok this month, the Lahore visit was a “crucial” part of their talks, sources said. While New Delhi had confirmed to Islamabad that Modi would visit Pakistan soon, it was not decided when exactly the visit would happen, a top official told BusinessLine.

Meanwhile, it was the Prime Minister’s Office that took the call of sending External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj to Islamabad to take part in the ‘Heart of Asia’ meet. Sources said it was during Sushma Swaraj’s visit that Modi’s stopover to Pakistan was confirmed.

However, India had only one condition — that the talks should take place in an “informal manner”. Hence, it was decided that Lahore would be the venue, not Islamabad, the capital city.

In fact, it was also decided that after his stopover in Afghanistan, Modi would head to Lahore directly from there.

Subsequently, all security arrangements and permits were arranged after hectic backchannel work.

However, officials said, the secrecy was tightly maintained even within the Ministry of External Affairs and “not everyone was apprised about” it, while the talks and arrangements took place at the level of foreign secretaries and NSAs in “close coordination” with the PMO.

Sources said this “grand visit” by Modi to Lahore is being seen as warming-up exercise before formal summit-level talks take place with Sharif on the sidelines of the 19th SAARC Summit.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Dec 2015 23:44

Kabila needs settle down.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 27 Dec 2015 03:00

Pakistan Army helped revive talks with India

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army paved the way for reviving a stalled dialogue with India this year, officials said, a thaw leading to the first visit to Pakistan by an Indian premier in almost 12 years.

Cheers

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Dec 2015 03:07

http://nation.com.pk/editors-picks/24-D ... is-silence
Kayani, the quiet general being forced to break his silence
( Cracks appearing in Qabila management)

ISLAMABAD - For the first time in the history of Pakistan, differences between two former army chiefs bubbled to surface after Pervez Musharraf accused Ashfaq Parvez Kayani of being ‘principal offender’ in the treason case against him.Ever since his retirement in 2013 Gen Kayani has characteristically kept silent, avoiding the media glare and generally refusing interviews.
But earlier this week, the ‘quiet general’ broke his silence defending his actions as the army chief in an interview to a Saudi news channel.Controversies have trailed General Kayani since his decision to take an extension of his army chief tenure.b]They range from the most spectacular - the Abbottabad Operation - to the debatable delay in launching the North Waziristan offensive.[/b]And, controversy also surrounds his relationship with General Musharraf, who handpicked him to lead the Inter-Services Intelligence and later the army.But the political turmoil of November 2007 also led to an eruption of tensions between General Kayani and Musharraf as the latter blamed Kayani for his troubles.
In a statement recorded before the joint investigation team of the Federal Investigation Agency, Pervez Musharraf blamed the country’s senior civilian and military leadership for his decision to impose emergency in 2007 saying they were consulted.Kayani was a surprise addition in the list of alleged abettors.The 72-year-old - facing treason charges under a case launched in 2013 for suspending the constitution - said General Kayani, who became the Chief of Army Staff on November 27, 2007, did not revoke the emergency.“By not revoking the same, General Kayani is also a principal offender,” he alleged.He insisted that in addition to General Kayani he had consulted the senior military and civilian leadership, including the then Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, before imposing the emergency. Reports said General Musharraf was not happy with General Kayani for not playing active role to save him from humiliation when he was arrested and involved in several cases on his return from abroad in 2013 to contest the elections.Former Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, who was also Musharraf’s personal choice, left the country at the end of his term in 2007 and never returned.Under the 1973 constitution, abrogation of the constitution will be an act of high treason, liable to death under Pakistan’s treason laws.
Lt.General Abdul Qayyum (retd) said Musharraf was trying to implicate Kayani into the treason case.“I am not defending Kayani.He has his positives and negatives but Musharraf was the dictator at that time so he can’t blame anybody of any role.He took the emergency decision himself,” he added.Qayum, a Senator of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League (Nawaz), said even if Kayani and others had advised him to take the decision, Musharraf should not have committed a ‘suicide.’He said everybody knew Musharraf was the sole authority at that time so passing on the responsibility was just an attempt to divert attention.“.He said Kayani could be considered an abettor only if he had sent a written proposal to Musharraf to enforce emergency rule.“Then even Kayani does not become the principal offender.Musharraf will remain the main accused.The alleged abettors can come to the court and clarify their position if needed,” he argued.Dr Khurram Iqbal, an analyst, said Musharraf was trying to save his own skin by discrediting his successor.“Kayani supported democracy during his tenure.Musharraf is just aiming to make the case against him weaker,” he remarked.He said Kayani had a right to respond and there was a possibility of a face-off between the former army chiefs.Kayani retired in 2013 after being the army chief for six years.It remains to be seen whether Kayani responds or keeps smoking his cigarettes, pondering over the ramifications.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Dec 2015 05:20

Modi’s detour to Lahore may well redefine future India-Pakistan engagement - Indrani Bagchi, ToI

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi landed in Lahore to wish Nawaz Sharif on his birthday, in effect, he restored a process started in May 2014 but derailed in August when his government cancelled the foreign secretary-level talks with Pakistan over its high commissioner's meeting with the Hurriyat. After a year when mis-steps characterized his Pakistan policy{Where was the mis-step?}, the PM appears to be finally taking control of his neighbourhood initiatives.

But for many who have followed the twists and turns of the past year, a legitimate question is, what is Modi government's Pakistan policy? Honestly, it's not very different from the policy followed by his predecessors -- engagement with Pakistan, while trying to stop terrorism emanating from there, sponsored or supported by elements of the Pakistani establishment. A difference is a determined effort to increase options with some active diplomacy with Gulf states and tougher responses to cross-border firing.

With Modi, the original vision was of building a regional policy with Pakistan as one of the elements. For almost a decade before, former PM Manmohan Singh, despite holding a similar vision could barely proceed with neighbours, let alone Pakistan. This was a decade when Pakistan-sponsored terrorists conducted some of their most horrific attacks in Indian cities. The official dialogue stopped and started and stopped again - it was only by 2012-2013 that India began to gather some of the tools to deter Pakistan.

After the initial gesture of inviting his neighbours to his swearing-in, Modi moved quickly on Bangladesh, which remains the most successful bilateral relationship in this region. With Sri Lanka too, Modi's visit and a new government there helped to turn around a deteriorating relationship with a crucial island neighbour. Another island neighbour, Maldives, remains a problem, while in Nepal, India is part of a very messy situation.

Pakistan was a clear negative. After the foreign secretary-level talks' fiasco, India tried again in March and then in Ufa which ended up an unmitigated disaster. The personal initiative taken by Modi in Paris, Bangkok and now Lahore is very much a part of his style of diplomacy - Modi is his own best diplomat and problem-solver. Just like Vajpayee over a decade ago, Modi has maneuvered himself into a sweet spot. His "chai at Raiwind" was also intended to do something else - make such interactions between Indian and Pakistani leaders ordinary and de-mystified, not massive media-driven events where governments lose control of the plot. As one official observed, "We want to move out of Page 1 to Page 21."

On the optics, his Lahore initiative cannot be faulted, despite the Congress party's protestations {Does anybody remember the huge protestations of Ms. Sonia Gandhi and the rest of INC after Shakti-II?}. Internationally, India is back in the peacemaking saddle. If things go well from here on, Modi can take the credit for breaking the logjam created by his aides {What logjam & which aides? India wanted to convey a message loud and clear and it was done. To call it a 'logjam' is incorrect. There will be always attempts to split the team and Modi has got to guard against that insidious attempt}. If they go south, Modi will have given himself the space, politically and internationally, to take tough steps against Pakistan. Most important, India has begun to talk to the party that matters in Pakistan - the Army, after the NSA talks between Ajit Doval and Nasir Janjua took off in December. This will serve as back and front channel to Pakistan in the Modi years, dealing exclusively with terrorism and its manifestations, including confidence-building {I think what India is doing is talking to the Pakistani Army through the Pakistani NSA while simultaneously keeping Nawaz abreast of the developments. This serves many ends.}

Over the past year, India has also worked to increase its options internationally vis-a-vis Pakistan. Witness India's initiatives with the Gulf Arab states when Modi visited Abu Dhabi and Dubai in August - amidst all the business and investment deals, it was clear India and UAE were building links to constrain Pakistan's operating room. The UAE has been Pakistan's traditional playing ground, for its rich, for those seeking better place to live, for a place to park their money, even for terror groups and the Army to make their off-shore investments. But haunted by the spectre of IS, Pakistan's toxic jihadist politics and their refusal to participate in the Yemen campaign, UAE is in the process of a change of heart. India was on hand to exploit that. It remains to be seen how far India can take this, but certainly, an opportunity to constrain Pakistan has presented itself {True, but UAE being an ummah brother cannot be trusted. India must exploit the situation and lay the foundations for a closer relationship while it lasts. Allah knows best otherwise}.

On the LOC, India has changed its terms of engagement with Pakistan - the retaliation from this side is now savage and more intense. With Modi, the instructions to border forces have been much clearer. Technology and equipment on the border have improved and remain on an upward trajectory. During his recent conversation with Pak NSA Janjua in Bangkok, Doval countered on LOC ceasefire violations by asking Janjua, "If we are the aggressors on the border, how come only we are building up our defences, and not you?" Internally, Doval has been presiding over a massive effort to beef up India's security capabilities, which has been a silent work in progress.

Although India did not make a show of it, New Delhi's decision to gift attack helicopters to Kabul is a game-changer. India is breaking its self-imposed arms embargo and this would not go unnoticed in Kabul. India's capabilities are not great, so the gift is modest. The intent, however, is clear. And that message is loud in Rawalpindi.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 27 Dec 2015 07:25

Falijee wrote:PM Narendra Modi's favourite dish among other delicacies served at Sharif's home
LAHORE: Prime Minister Narendra Modi's favourite dish 'Saag' was among other vegetarian delicacies prepared for him during a lunch-cum-dinner at Jati Umrah residence of his Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharif.
"All dishes, including Saag, daal and vegetable food, were cooked in desi ghee," a source in the Jati Umra told PTI.
He said Kashmiri tea was presented to the Indian premier.Some 11 members of Modi's delegation accompanied him to the Jati Umerah who were issued a 72-hour visa.

However, over 100 other members of the delegations stayed at the Allama Iqbal International Airport.
The source said Sharif's mother also entered the hall where both premiers were holding the meeting along with his other family members."Modi touched the feet of Sharif's mother," he said.Prime Minister Modi today visited Lahore on his way back home in a surprise visit - the first trip to Pakistan by an Indian premier in more than 10 years.

For those of us used to crass arrogance from the political class, or its obverse--a kind of fake overwrought ghazal-spouting gentlemanliness-- it can be difficult to understand Modi's natural warmth, grace and class. Especially considering the entire propaganda about Modi has been that he is a rustic gangster type. The DIE classes repeat this with fear and loathing, while many of the fed-up Hindus hope and wish that Modi would be an authoritarian gangster.

That is probably why we ignore simple facts and evidence in front of us and look for convoluted explanations of Modi's actions. He wants to have good relations with Pakistan and for it to do well and wishes nothing but good for them. He won't tolerate their attacks on us, however. This is exactly what he said, time and again. Unlike previous prime ministers and most of the DIE, he doesn't have anything to prove, much less any personal hangups one way or the other about Pakistan or Muslims in general.

(I am not without my personal chankian theory about "the visit." I think it may be a scaled-down test of Cold Start, undertaken with the collaboration of some of the high-level civilians on the paki side, who are RAW agents. Modi was personally testing the ability of RAW agints to maintain operational secrecy when dhoti-clad Indian irregulars land up in Lahore, riding Boeings with a few hours notice given on Twitter.

Looks like the proof of concept was a success, given the fact that Modi came, did a simulated operation in Raiwind, and was promptly exfiltrated.

There is precedent for top leaders helping out security establishment. Benazir as PM carried missile plans from noko on her person, or something like that, IIRC.

)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Dec 2015 07:26

Peregrine wrote:Pakistan Army helped revive talks with India
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army paved the way for reviving a stalled dialogue with India this year, officials said, a thaw leading to the first visit to Pakistan by an Indian premier in almost 12 years.
Cheers

And perhaps the solid thrashing on the LOC had something to do with it.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Dec 2015 08:03

Karan M wrote:
{quote="Peregrine"}Pakistan Army helped revive talks with India
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army paved the way for reviving a stalled dialogue with India this year, officials said, a thaw leading to the first visit to Pakistan by an Indian premier in almost 12 years.
Cheers {/quote}

And perhaps the solid thrashing on the LOC had something to do with it.

Undoubtedly.

This should have our response right from the beginning, instead of pussyfooting around playing benign "big brother" to a bunch of turds in a shitty country.

The pakis have developed an enormous group of over ground workers in India who undermine every effort made to put the pakis in their right place.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2015 08:41

KLNMurthy wrote:
For those of us used to crass arrogance from the political class, or its obverse--a kind of fake overwrought ghazal-spouting gentlemanliness-- it can be difficult to understand Modi's natural warmth, grace and class. Especially considering the entire propaganda about Modi has been that he is a rustic gangster type. The DIE classes repeat this with fear and loathing, while many of the fed-up Hindus hope and wish that Modi would be an authoritarian gangster.

Astounding as it may seem, there is a connection between the attitudes you describe and the attitudes of the people of Delhi last days of the Mughal empire - attitudes that were carried on into British built Lutyens Delhi - which were then inherited by the Congress party.

The late Mughal Delhi-ites considered themselves to be the most ghazal-spouting cultured, with the prettiest women and the best mangoes, and looked down upon outside towns from there their armies were recruited - describing those other Indians as "Purbies" (easterners) or even "Talinganis" - people of Telengana who were part of the army.

The same contempt for the Indian, love for Urdu speech and Ghazals and high and well connected incestuous society carried on into Lutyens Delhi and the likes of Nehru and his clan and hangers on like Mani Shankar Aiyer, servile gulaams like MMS and others including the NDTV crowd. A culture that has lastes about 150 - 200 years - from teh early 1800s - past 1857 to 2014

It is the non Delhi PMs who actually did India proud - including Narasimha Rao, Atalji and now Modi

partha · Post by **partha** » 27 Dec 2015 08:53

Peregrine wrote:Pakistan Army helped revive talks with India
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Army paved the way for reviving a stalled dialogue with India this year, officials said, a thaw leading to the first visit to Pakistan by an Indian premier in almost 12 years.

Planted news by ISPR to save H&D? If army wants talks, then why are establishment hacks squirming in pain about Modi's visit?

If Modi visits Pakistan again and god forbid something happens or there is a terror attack in India, army apologists will use this to argue "why would army backed jihadis do something like this when army itself facilitated peace process and is on the same page as civilian admin?"

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 27 Dec 2015 09:00

If this PM-level summit had been previously announced, the media hype and hysteria before and during the summit would have been sickening. Imagine Barkha and hundreds of her clones landing in Islamabad, all the sickening details of the menu being served, unending tripe on TV and in print from so-called experts and columnists. It would have become a circus.

I am glad we were spared the agony.

Now the media is trying to catch up. I hope Modiji makes similar unexpected moves on domestic political and economic fronts over the next few days that throw the media off-balance again.

partha · Post by **partha** » 27 Dec 2015 09:01

Kakkaji wrote:If this PM-level summit had been previously announced, the media hype and hysteria before and during the summit would have been sickening. Imagine Barkha and hundreds of her clones landing in Islamabad, all the sickening details of the menu being served, unending tripe on TV and in print from so-called experts and columnists. It would have become a circus.

I am glad we were spared the agony.

Now the media is trying to catch up. I hope Modiji makes similar unexpected moves on domestic political and economic fronts over the next few days that throw the media off-balance again.

+100

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2015 09:02

partha wrote: Planted news by ISPR to save H&D? If army wants talks, then why are establishment hacks squirming in pain about Modi's visit?

If Modi visits Pakistan again and god forbid something happens or there is a terror attack in India, army apologists will use this to argue "why would army backed jihadis do something like this when army itself facilitated peace process and is on the same page as civilian admin?"

Same army that helped locate Osammy bun Laden

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Dec 2015 09:13

Kakkaji wrote:If this PM-level summit had been previously announced, the media hype and hysteria before and during the summit would have been sickening. Imagine Barkha and hundreds of her clones landing in Islamabad, all the sickening details of the menu being served, unending tripe on TV and in print from so-called experts and columnists. It would have become a circus.

The presstitutes did not get their circus. Moreover, they did not even know that this was to happen despite their bloated self-assessment and boasts of being able to read the signs.

Which is why we see all the angst and anguish. A trait they share in droves with Congress and AAP.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Dec 2015 09:36

Pakistan says COAS Gen. Sharif is going to Kabul with all sincerity
http://www.khaama.com/pakistan-says-coa ... erity-4430

Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff General Raheel Sharif is expected to arrive in Kabul today and hold meetings with Afghan leaders concerning to the resumption of peace talks with Taliban, border security and bilateral relations.“We are going there with all sincerity,” Lt. Gen. Bajwa said in front of journalists at a social gathering.The Pakistani delegation led by Gen. Raheel Sharif will discuss a date and groups of anti-government armed militants to come to meet Afghan government delegation for peace.For bringing Afghanistan’s enemies to the negotiation table, Islamabad wants Kabul to act against Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) Chief Mullah Fazlullah who is responsible for some deadly attacks in Pakistan. Islamabad claims that Mullah Fazlullah is hiding in Afghanistan.Government says it is ready to take risks but expect the same from Pakistan since it has betrayed Afghanistan on several occasions.“We’re ready to take risks but then we also expect Pakistan to stand by us for the sake of the greater good,” Chief Executive Officer (CEO) Abdullah Abdullah said last wee

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Dec 2015 11:50

The last time vajpayee was trying to be all peaceful statesman like in Lahore and what not, India got stabbed in the back with kargil. Let us see what gift tsp comes up with this time.

All this hype in media and br jingoes about modi being out of the box genius and what not remains to be seen.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 27 Dec 2015 12:02

Cain Marko wrote:The last time vajpayee was trying to be all peaceful statesman like in Lahore and what not, India got stabbed in the back with kargil. Let us see what gift tsp comes up with this time.

All this hype in media and br jingoes about modi being out of the box genius and what not remains to be seen.

Now, to call it 'out of the box' and stuff, I agree, is a bit over the top. Pragmatic, is what I would term it.

You know that when people step into the jungle, even with the very good intention of just enjoying the scenery or even some conservation work, there is every likelihood of being attacked by a wild animal, reptile or insect. When it is a given, you equip yourself accordingly. But that doesn't stop you from exploring the jungle, does it? You don't lock yourself up in your house, do you? [And just so that the animals, reptiles or insects don't enter your house..you take whatever precautions you can. But that doesn't offer any iron clad guarantee either.]...and so on.

At the end of the day, He is setting the agenda. Disrupting old notions and nuances. Doesn't guarantee anything..but he is seen to be doing something. If the creatures attack, then we shall see how the response is..but should the response be forceful, he will have the room to move as he wishes. Until then, let's leave him to it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2015 12:27

I think one of the issues that arise from Modi's visit is whether he "was doing good" (or was he doing harm perhaps). Maybe it was neither. He was simply wriggling free of the usual suggestions, comments and recommendations that accompany "planned" meetings.

If MMS had been PM and had made a planned visit I would have been very angry indeed. But because it was Modi and because he pulled it off in this way I am actually at a loss for words. One day he was signing a deal with Russia including weapons systems and nuclear power plants. Next day he was telling Afghanistan in no uncertain terms that the relationship should be constructive, not destructive in a veiled reference to Pakistan - and was present for a photo shoot along with an India supplied attack helicopter. A few hours later he was in Nawaz Sharif's home, holding Nawaz's hand and leading him.

I had nothing to criticize. Nothing to praise other than the way he caught people off guard. I think he has put relations between India and Pakistan in an area where no one can say there is no contact, but yet nothing has been given away by anyone. Basically no one knows what to think.

Those who like what Modi did will always praise it. It is those who did not like this act who have been wrong-footed.

In India Congis and Modi opponents are left babbling and searching for things to say.

In Pakistan, the army that may have elements opposed to any deals between Nawaz Sharif and Modi cannot do much. What can they do? if they criticize Nawaz Sharif, it shows them up as openly not wanting peace. If they attack at the border, it shows again that they are out of step with Nawaz Sharif. It remains to be seen whether they will do that. As for the LeT and jihadis, what are they going to do? Conduct a terrorist attack? A fidayeen attack? Whine? Shut the F up? Anything they do will be used as an indicator of Pakistani sentiment and intentions. India will be wearing a halo no matter what.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 27 Dec 2015 12:34

+ 1o1 AoA

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2015 12:43

"Conventional thinking" as opposed to "out of box" thinking usually calls for lower level meetings between officials leading up to a summit where some substantial agreement is signed. This is what the media, political parties, diplomats and we the public have been taught to think.

If the lower levels cannot reach agreement there will be no summit. Right? Well yes, it was right until Modi did this. If that is not out of the box, then nothing is.

With 20/20 hindsight I think Modi can see as plainly as we can that there will be no agreements reached at lower levels - the same issues have been stuck for decades. In fact that is the precise reason why people like me (and many others) did not want any dealing with Pakistan at all - because no deal will ever be struck on the negotiating table.

But guess what Modi did. He struck no deal, but held a summit. What does that mean? It can only mean that he is going to move forward on his own agenda (whatever that may be) and not be restricted to the existing boxes, Kashmir, people to people contact, water etc. The only exception his government has made - the only caveat that will stop contact is terrorism.

If I was a butt hurt Congoon the first question I would ask is "Aha! Has terrorism stopped?"

It takes two to make a pair of assholes so the smartass reply to that question could be - "There was no terrorist attack on 26th December so it has stopped"

But when we do away with assholegiri, we will have to wait and see if there are more attacks and what Modi will say or do if there are more terrorist attacks. Like I said earlier - if an attack occurs - the blame will fall squarely on Pakistan and probably on the army and jihadis. Modi himself and his government will come out looking like sincere but betrayed peacemakers. Is that smart. Or is that smart.

partha · Post by **partha** » 27 Dec 2015 12:59

It's too early to say if this visit was out of box thinking. We can only judge this event a few years down the line.
Kargil would have happened even without Vajpayee's bus yatra but that bus ride made Kargil intrusion a case of backstabbing and hence India gained an upper hand in diplomacy. So Modi's surprise visit in itself may not amount to anything but may come in handy later.

Edit: I see that Shivji has made a similar point above. I definitely think Modi has a strategy unlike Manmohan Singh. Only time will tell if that's true or not.

member_23692 · Post by **member_23692** » 27 Dec 2015 13:05

The biggest problem with Modi's recent overtures to Paki, which culminated in his visit to Sharif, is that these were done without proper explanation of what changed between the time that he was adopting a hard approach towards Paki and between the time that he started making these overtures.

When things of this nature vis-a-vis Paki are done without proper explanation, in fact, practically, no explanation to the Indian public, then it gives a carte-blanche, a free hand , a license, so to speak, to the anti-nationals such as the Congress party, the left and the media to sell out the country without impunity, when it comes to Paki and Islamists. "See, the BJP did the same thing, and no less a person than Modi", these anti-nationals will say, and go about their merry way, handing over our country, piece by piece, to the barbarians.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Dec 2015 13:08

What is the difference between MMS and Modi? I think the difference is this:
If MMS' peace-overtures are rejected by Pakistan and it does its usual terrorism, then MMS will only offer more peace-overtures.
If Modi's peace-overtures are rejected by Pakistan and it does its usual terrorism, then Modi gives an impression that he will be happy to repeat 1971.

MMS policy was carrot & carrot. Modi's policy is carrot & stick. That is the difference.

सच पूछो तो शर में ही बसती है दीप्ति विनय की
संधिवचन सम्पूज्य उसीका जिसमे शक्ति विजय की

सहनशीलता, क्षमा, दया को तभी पूजता जग है
बल का दर्प चमकता उसके पीछे जब जगमग है

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 27 Dec 2015 13:15

Now that peace overtures are being made time to get ready for war...

The nature of Pakistan is like scorpion it will embrace with claws but the tail is always poised to sting

A la Kargil

jMT

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 27 Dec 2015 13:22

I feel Modi visit is intended to precipitate the situation. Pakistan sends terrorists to force India hand, probably Modi is trying to force PA hand with rapprochement. I seriously hope Indian security apparatus is alert for the impending Modi Tera Mooh Kala act by PA or Jihadi apparatus.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Dec 2015 14:08

prahaar wrote:I feel Modi visit is intended to precipitate the situation. Pakistan sends terrorists to force India hand, probably Modi is trying to force PA hand with rapprochement. I seriously hope Indian security apparatus is alert for the impending Modi Tera Mooh Kala act by PA or Jihadi apparatus.

I suppose he would have had Pigeon's input on the state of things. Do note that he's been in the thick of things..

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Dec 2015 14:09

Kapil Kommireddi in the UK’s Guardian on our Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s unfortunate visit to the Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

His {i.e.Prime Minister Narendra Modi} volte-face, given that it was he who encouraged the intensification of Indian suspicions and hostility toward Pakistan, seems whimsical rather than statesmanlike. There has been no demonstrable change in Pakistan’s behaviour to justify the enormous reward of a visit by India’s prime minister.

Modi’s personal diplomacy is a nonstarter because Nawaz Sharif, Modi’s counterpart in Pakistan, is not the ultimate decision maker in his country. That job is held by the military and intelligence chiefs, and they draw their power and legitimacy by magnifying the “threat” from India.

The two {i.e. India and the Islamic Republic} can exist in peace only if they exist in isolation from each other. This explains why the longest bouts of peace between the two nations occurred when they spurned each other.

Concludes with what IMO is the correct observation that:

Modi, like every Indian prime minister, refuses to learn this lesson. His “diplomacy” will do nothing to advance peace. Instead, it will embolden elements within Pakistan’s military-intelligence complex to act in ways that will be adversarial to Pakistan’s democracy – and India’s security.

See The Guardian here:

Modi’s unexpected visit to Pakistan will make little difference : Tensions are smoothed by unexpected diplomacy and personal relationships between leaders are applauded – but then it’s business as usual.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Dec 2015 14:18

Instead, it will embolden elements within Pakistan’s military-intelligence complex to act in ways that will be adversarial to Pakistan’s democracy – and India’s security.

And that will be so out of character for the Paki fauj...

Must be fun getting paid for publishing anal tripe. Truly envy folks like Komireddy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2015 15:38

arun wrote: Modi’s unexpected visit to Pakistan will make little difference : Tensions are smoothed by unexpected diplomacy and personal relationships between leaders are applauded – but then it’s business as usual.

If one gives up the idea that Modi did this to change things with Pakistan, and instead think of how it will benefit him and his government, it makes much more sense.

No matter what happens - Modi and his BJP government are going to end up looking like peacemakers after standing accused of being bigoted warmongers.

The only accusation that one can place against Modi is that he is looking for personal glory and Nobel Peace prize, but this will be a bitter pill to swallow for the Khangress party that has always accused the BJP of being Hindu fundamentalist seeking war with Shitistan.

There is another spinoff. Assume that there are more attacks on the border or some more terrorist outrages from Pakistan - I doubt if there will be a Kargil but something else. Modi can justifiably act butt hurt and react like a rejected lover and no one will be able to question him. If he and his government had been aggressive and uncommunicative and terrorism occurred - that would be the wind in the Congress' sails - "See? What will you do now? Make war? You should have been talking."

But now Modi himself is talking and is a picture of warmth, put on warmth or not. Who can say he is hostile? Basically he has temporarily silenced the voices of opposition who are telling him how to deal with Pakistan. No one has made any commitments, Modi has not offered Kashmir. Sharif has not offered Hafiz Saeed. Nothing to criticize other than the lack of anything to criticize. But he has put his own peace efforts in the limelight. And he has put Nawaz Sharif in the limelight. No matter how much I (and others) howl that Shitistan is run by the Army, the fact remains that the 3.5 fourfathers call Pakistan a democracy with an elected civilian government led by Nawaz Sharif. And Modi has, in my view, strengthened that civilian leadership by dealing directly at the highest level. It is my guess that it will not be easy for the Pakistan army to dictate things without blatantly revealing its opposition. Someone will be embarrassed - but it won't be Modi.

Need to see how things shape up from here - there is some conference coming up right - SAARC or something. And Shitistan will be required to take some SAARC friendly actions. Nawaz Sharif will be on the spot. If he succeeds Modi will get the credit. If he fails - Modi's overture will be deemed to have failed, but the blame will go on Nawaz Sharif and the army. But that is still 10 months away. Long time..

JMT

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 27 Dec 2015 16:41

In the past: GOI starts the piss talks. Many months of excitement in media and pappi-japhi circles. Lot of equal equal. India is not sincere enough. We are same people, same culture etc etc. Watching news channels, reading newspapers increase the BP of shudra jingoes. All of this used to happen not only within India but all over the world media, Think Whatever Tanks, Track Thoo etc.

Now: Compare all that with Modi. All the usual suspects are sulking and frustrated. No tamasha of peace talks. Just serious talk revolving around "TERRORISM". Not many months of never ending euphoria (again within elite circles only) , with no end results. This has been achieved by arranging the events suddenly and out of media glare.

1. Has Modi lower the guard at LOC? .
No,If Pakis have any doubts they can try the ceasefire violations again. India's response is savage now.

2. Can the people world over call Modi warmonger or see him as warmonger not giving piss a chance?
No,This is what is scaring the shit out of Pakis.

3. Modi same as MMS?
No,As johneeG said with MMS it was "Carrot & Carrot", with Modi "Carrot & Stick". We have already seen the sample of stick during ceasefire violations. I doubt if there is even a "Rotten Carrot" on offer from Modi. Goes to Russia with main focus on arms. Goes to Afghanistan and says Pakis are terrorist lovers. Then visits Pakistan (Tauba Tauba

)

4. Has Modi offered carrots like Kashmir, Siachin etc. etc?
No,He is 100% pure Hindu Bania.

5. Will it embolden elements within Pakistan to act maniac?
Yes, Modi-Doval knows this. Guard won't be lowered.

6. What is Modi aiming to get from these talks?
Nothing, Just image makeover to the world. When it is the time to give Jhappad, they won't be able to complain that Modi did not offer piss.

Result: Pakis are sulking, angered, frustrated . They want to act but at the same time scared of India's response . This time it's all unpredictable for them. With MMS they were sure that there would be only Dosa's. Pakis will still do ceasefire violations, send pig's across the border. But doing big terror attacks at will, they will think thousands time. In the meantime, India will keep improving military strength and economy. Try to give her citizens better life, which we all deserve.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Dec 2015 16:53

Tx SS.We are now seeing a spate of reports that the Paki army "approved" the visit! They have to save face! Fat chance that Mr.M sought their permission! Yes,quite correct that they are fully involved in fighting their own extremist brand of the Taliban ,plus want their Afghan agenda maintained,and require India keeping quiet on our front.

The ball is now in the Paki court to behave.Let's see what happens.Will their uniformed tribe go along or some try and sabotage it as they've done repeatedly in the past.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 27 Dec 2015 17:02

I think Modi's Pakistan strategy is aimed at a wider audience. That Pakistan strategy is in itself a subset of his larger strategy for India which is economic development. The NSA meetings in Bangkok, the one on one with Sharif in Paris and this stop-over in Lahore are all in the nature of buying options to a possible peace process with Pakistan, a very visible peace process. This option is being bought without India paying any price for it. If indeed there is peace, there will be a dividend. If there is no peace, India has not foregone anything.

These moves on the chessboard indicate some pressure (how much one cannot say) from the West on the Modi Government to have some kind of peace process with Pakistan. So Modi is doing what is necessary and buying these free options on possible peace with Pakistan. From Modi's POV it is necessary because the technology and capital for that all important economic development process in India will to a large part come from the West (including Japan). And so he is keeping them onside.

This intent to concentrate on economic development can also be seen in the nature of arms purchases/negotiations and India's continued commitment to a 2nd strike posture. The S400 deal if it happens is a huge indicator that a strong defense and a deterrence to attack is center piece in Modi's plans to prioritize economic development i.e Modi wants peace by deterring war while India concentrates on it's economy.