MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

[Singha]

https://in.reuters.com/article/pakistan ... NKCN1R11R0

Student stabs prof to death over coed party

And this is proper govt college not madrassa

[disha]

Who created the system to generate these terrorists. ...

Start from Jimmy Carter and end with Robin Raphael.

If you want to, do check out my post in the US thread.

[SidSoma]

Who created the system to generate these terrorists. ...

Start from Jimmy Carter and end with Robin Raphael.

If you want to, do check out my post in the US thread.

All I wanted to say is that a society is responsible for the action of its leaders and hence Paki ppl are not innocent. I will def read your post in US thread. No more on this from me as this is OT.

[Sridhar K]

All these years of lurking in BR has taught me that Attacking Srinagar or Valley is Haram, while attacking Jammu Naushera is Kosher. In fact their choice of target was not even surprising for a strategically and military challenged nanha Abdul like me. So their target was always Indian military installation in that area so that collateral damage if any does not harm any Kashmiri Muslims and antogonize them

[Lalmohan]

the pak spokesgoat also said that they were attacking "non military targets" in India... as a full = = with the night before
the raid was all about sneak in 2 kms, drop bums in field and run away as fast as possible
all about H&D preservation

[sudhan]

Tom Cooper also did a #ChaddiUttrao on the pukes trying to sell the Su30 kill story..

Our dumba$$ media pimps need a slap or 100 for mindlessly regurgitating Paki propaganda.. Now the puke reuse the same crap against us..

[ramana]

Folks Nitin Gokhale has an article that explains the tactical situation day after Balakot. And describes the shoot down.

Please read it.
Also don't post drivel. Keep thread title in focus.

[Aditya_V]

From the Nikhil Gokhale article- Indian Control rooms can see Info from the Awacs, Aerostats and various ground controlled Radars and could detect the AMRAAM launches? It states 2 PAF pilots parachuted, only 3 F 16's crossed the LOC

https://sniwire.com/neighbours/india-pa ... ontroller/

[manjgu]

can u guys open the link??

[Aditya_V]

It works for me

sniwire.com/neighbours/india-pakistan-d ... ontroller/

Posting in full so that others can read, admins delete if this some violation

India-Pakistan Dogfight: The Little Known Role Of A Woman Flight Controller
An alert and calm woman flight controller of the Indian Air Force (IAF) played a key role in thwarting the major Pakistan air attack on the Nowshera sector in Jammu and Kashmir on 27 February, multiple sources aware of the entire sequence of events have revealed.

The woman officer, whose name is being withheld to protect her identity, displayed exceptional presence of mind and composure under pressure when two dozen Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter jets attempted to intrude into Indian airspace and target military installations, including an Indian Army brigade headquarter.

The previous day, a 12-strong package of Mirage-2000 fighter planes had stunned the world and Pakistan by crossing the Line of Control (LoC) into Pakistan-Occupied Jammu and Kashmir (POJK) and going beyond into the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province to hit Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) training camp at Balakot. This was the first time in 48 years after the 1971 war between the two nations that India crossed the ‘Rubicon’ as it were in going deeper into sovereign Pakistan territory.

So a strong response from Pakistan was expected. And it came immediately a day after India struck at Balakot. According to available details, the events on the morning of 27 February unfolded at a furious pace.

Pakistan first closed its civilian airspace and disallowed any commercial traffic around 8.45-9 am. In any case, Indian flight controllers, sitting at a secure control room in Punjab and watching an array of inputs from multiple on ground and airborne radars, were keeping a close watch on the Pakistani airspace that morning. Around 9.30 am, the IAF flight controllers noticed at least two dozen PAF fighters getting airborne in a span of 15 minutes. Twelve of the PAF fighters appeared headed to the south of Pir Panjal range (Jammu, Poonch, Nowshera), four towards Srinagar, while four others were airborne in the area opposite Anoopgarh/Suchetgarh in Rajasthan.

The Indian flight control centre, aware of the danger, quickly alerted four fighters—two Su-30s and two Mirage-2000s—deployed on combat air patrol (CAP) in the area south of Pir Panjal and simultaneously ordered two MiG-21 Bisons, based in Srinagar to scramble. One of the MiGs was piloted by Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman.

As the senior lot among the Indian flight controllers tried to make sense of impending attack, the woman officer—relatively junior in rank and with limited experience—quietly took charge at the consoles and fired rapid instructions to the Indian pilots tasked to defend the impending attack. She kept the possibility of F-16s being part of the attack package launched by the PAF in mind and accordingly alerted the Indian pilots to take the necessary counter-measures. The F-16s, it should be noted, are armed with the Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air or AMRAAM Missiles—generally considered the most advanced and sophisticated air dominance weapon.

Since the radars at the control centre are capable of seeing the big picture in the sky unlike the individual planes (which have visibility of 60 degrees or thereabouts), the directions of the on-ground flight controllers became the byword for the Indian pilots. And sure enough, as the PAF package advanced towards the LoC, momentarily it appeared that the Indians were outnumbered but the woman officer and her colleagues at the flight control centre noticed that only three F-16s made a shallow ingress across the LoC, dropped a few laser-guided bombs on military targets close to the LoC and scrambled back without hitting their targets.

As the Pakistani fighters turned back, the Indian interceptors including Wing Cdr Abhinandan were in hot pursuit. Abhinandan reported a ‘lock’ on the F-16 and fired the R-73 short-range air-to-air missile fitted on the MiG-21 Bison. Even as he did that, the woman officer noticed the F-16s firing two missiles at the Indian aircraft in hot pursuit. Taking a split second decision, she alerted both MiG-21 Bison pilots about the impeding threat. Wing Commander Abhinandan’s colleague took instant evasive action and initiated counter-measures and manoeuvred his way out of harm of the AMRAAM missile. Abhinandan, however, was not so lucky. Even as he fired the R-73 and hit an F-16, the AMRAAM hit his plane too. Abhinandan was forced to eject. He landed in enemy territory and was captured. Meanwhile, the F-16 also went down and two other parachutes were seen drifting inside Pakistani territory. The fate of the two Pakistani pilots is shrouded in mystery so far.

All this was happening in a timeframe that was less than the time we take to read this article.

An Indian analysis has also shown that when Pakistan launched the short retaliatory strike only three or four aircraft including three F-16s crossed the LoC and came only three or four km inside Indian territory before they were challenged by the IAF interceptors. As a senior IAF officer puts it: “While three or four aircraft came into Indian territory in an offensive mode, 21 aircraft were in the total package only for support. They were all trying to protect those three F-16 aircraft.”

A post-event analysis of the air-to-air combat shows that besides the highest standard of training and disciplined displayed by the pilots, the contribution of the woman ground flight controller in Indian pilots winning the dog fight was significant. She is, sources say, likely to be conferred with a medal in the next round of awards that the IAF will announce.

[VKumar]

PAF Embraer flying south of Islamabad. Check on flightradar

[sudeepj]

It works for me

sniwire.com/neighbours/india-pakistan-d ... ontroller/

Posting in full so that others can read, admins delete if this some violation

India-Pakistan Dogfight: The Little Known Role Of A Woman Flight Controller
...
Since the radars at the control centre are capable of seeing the big picture in the sky unlike the individual planes (which have visibility of 60 degrees or thereabouts), the directions of the on-ground flight controllers became the byword for the Indian pilots. And sure enough, as the PAF package advanced towards the LoC, momentarily it appeared that the Indians were outnumbered but the woman officer and her colleagues at the flight control centre noticed that only three F-16s made a shallow ingress across the LoC, dropped a few laser-guided bombs on military targets close to the LoC and scrambled back without hitting their targets.

As the Pakistani fighters turned back, the Indian interceptors including Wing Cdr Abhinandan were in hot pursuit. Abhinandan reported a ‘lock’ on the F-16 and fired the R-73 short-range air-to-air missile fitted on the MiG-21 Bison. Even as he did that, the woman officer noticed the F-16s firing two missiles at the Indian aircraft in hot pursuit. Taking a split second decision, she alerted both MiG-21 Bison pilots about the impeding threat. Wing Commander Abhinandan’s colleague took instant evasive action and initiated counter-measures and manoeuvred his way out of harm of the AMRAAM missile. Abhinandan, however, was not so lucky. Even as he fired the R-73 and hit an F-16, the AMRAAM hit his plane too. Abhinandan was forced to eject. He landed in enemy territory and was captured. Meanwhile, the F-16 also went down and two other parachutes were seen drifting inside Pakistani territory. The fate of the two Pakistani pilots is shrouded in mystery so far.

All this was happening in a timeframe that was less than the time we take to read this article.

Can a GCI or even an AEW radar spot missile launches and bombs being dropped?

[manjgu]

apparently AEW can as per local BRF experts....

[SidSoma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDh9BiLZRBk

This video specifically talks about the ability of SAAB to do this. Should be std feature for such platforms

[Karan M]

This lady was likely stationed at an IACCS node.

Five have already been established.

http://forceindia.net/cover-story/bigger-impact/

IACCS is completely a homegrown project. It is indigenously developed and designed by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) at the cost of USD1.3 billion and is ably supported by air defence stalwarts who shared their domain knowledge during its development. As of September 2015, five years after the deployment of AFNET, the IAF has established five nodes of the IACCS in the western sector facing Pakistan at Barnala (Punjab), Wadsar (Gujarat), Aya Nagar (Delhi), Jodhpur (Rajasthan) and Ambala (Haryana). The system has since then been connected with vital AD nodes and has provided network-centric capability to the air defence forces in the Northern and Western sector along Pakistan and China border and steadily extending it to other vital areas for pan India coverage.

The primary objective of IACCS is to integrate and present air situation derived from different types of sensors viz the IAF, army, navy, civil radars, AWACS/ AEW aircraft and mobile observation posts (MOPs). The data from the air bases, civil agencies received through air force movement cell/ATCs is also collated to present a comprehensive Air Situation picture at IACCS command and control centre. This is done to ensure that any intrusion by airborne object viz; hostile aircraft, helicopter, drone or micro-light, balloon etc. can be detected and tackled as soon as it takes place. All major formations and static establishments have been linked on the WAN and even have intelligence inputs – live videos from the Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) and images from AWACS are transferred seamlessly to present a comprehensive air picture at the IAF’s central locations. The combined air situation picture is made available at several central places at strategic (Air HQ), operational (Command HQ) and tactical level (Field Level) for appropriate decision taking and redundancy.

Follow-on deal.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 187881.cms

Radar integration: IAF signs Rs 8000-crore deal with BEL

[Karan M]

Can a GCI or even an AEW radar spot missile launches and bombs being dropped?

Depends on the radar and the range. A 300km class radar has a much better chance of detecting low RCS targets at say, a third of its max performance, i.e. 100 km.

[sudeepj]

Can a GCI or even an AEW radar spot missile launches and bombs being dropped?

Depends on the radar and the range. A 300km class radar has a much better chance of detecting low RCS targets at say, a third of its max performance, i.e. 100 km.

Intuitively, this makes sense as RCS is proportional to the fourth power of the range.. But an interesting factoid that I did not know before!

[yensoy]

who said anything about 'making it to srinagar' ? certainly not the thing you have quoted.
...But as a serious researcher he can only go by what's confirmed by inconvertible evidence, just like Jagan did.

Yes sir, agreed I was mistaken in my understanding of what he was trying to say.

I think you misunderstood. The pakis weren't heading to Srinagar, they just wanted to know if there were any IAF fighters over Srinagar which could intercept them while they are on the way to their target.

Their target could never be Srinagar unless there is a full fledged war already in progress. One of their aircraft actually reaching/bombing Srinagar would be a worse outcome for them than it getting downed by a SAM because then all gloves are off and "aar-paar ki ladai" would immediately start which they are in no position to fight.

Yes sir, IMHO were they to launch AMRAAMs from their side of the LoC and were these to hit our aircraft on our side of the LoC, it would be highly provocative and escalatory, worthy of aar-paar ki ladai to wipe out the PAF.

...As the Pakistani fighters turned back, the Indian interceptors including Wing Cdr Abhinandan were in hot pursuit. Abhinandan reported a ‘lock’ on the F-16 and fired the R-73 short-range air-to-air missile fitted on the MiG-21 Bison. Even as he did that, the woman officer noticed the F-16s firing two missiles at the Indian aircraft in hot pursuit.

This explanation is almost a good one. So first they intruded, then turned back in haste, then we pursued them and got a lock. At which point they fired at us in self defence, makes sense from the behaviour point of view, but not from geometry.

How did they fire at Abhi who was pursuing them into PoK? Their target was presumably behind them - unless more F-16s were involved than the one(s) Abhi and his wingman were pursuing; or unless they broke loose and turned back to face the Bisons. But they did fire in our direction, else we wouldn't have the AMRAAM in our possession.

[VikasM]

Not seeing where it says the evading bird took the shot. Likely the ones flying higher in POJK side for cover fired. There were a few flying in Neelam Valley presumably? Package was predominantly F-16. Also what's "F-16s"? Multiple F-16? Corroborates with my argument.

[Jayram]

It works for me

niwire.com/neighbours/india-pakistan-do ... ontroller/

Posting in full so that others can read, admins delete if this some violation

Can a GCI or even an AEW radar spot missile launches and bombs being dropped?

So it stands to reason that if AEW can spot a missile being dropped then 2 +1 parachutes should be on the screens a long long time. We have all the evidence we need to stop this Gaffor tamasha but watching them squirm has become a national pastime for us.
On a more serious topic we would have known Abni was drifting and falling over to the other side as it was happening in real time. Therefore the scramble for the air rescue chopper. More info to come for sure as time passes

[ramana]

From the Nikhil Gokhale article- Indian Control rooms can see Info from the Awacs, Aerostats and various ground controlled Radars and could detect the AMRAAM launches? It states 2 PAF pilots parachuted, only 3 F 16's crossed the LOC

https://sniwire.com/neighbours/india-pa ... ontroller/

This is key.
IAF ground controller saw that.
Mig-21 fired the R-73 at the F-16s.
Also only F-16s can fire AIM-120C.


What else do 'objective' arm chair experts on Twitter want?

And not only 3 F-16s crossed 2 km past LOC.
No wonder Ground Control sent 4 Su-30MKIS already in the air on CAP and 2 Mig-21 Bisons on ORP to intercept.
That is 2:1 force ratio.

All those morons saying too few planes sent to intercept the "package' should introspect.
Especially who write pages about obsolete Mig-21s and get Retweets.

[ramana]

There were three F-16s.
Wg Co.Abhi was pursuing one and the other guy fired the two AMRAAMs.

[Cain Marko]

makes sense from the behaviour point of view, but not from geometry.

How did they fire at Abhi who was pursuing them into PoK? Their target was presumably behind them - unless more F-16s were involved than the one(s) Abhi and his wingman were pursuing; or unless they broke loose and turned back to face the Bisons. But they did fire in our direction, else we wouldn't have the AMRAAM in our possession.

The 16s which were being pursued were unlikely to be the ones who fired the amraams, including the one that got the bison. Remember it was a 24 fighter paf package, my guess is that amraams were fired by other vipers in the package, who at this point were converging towards the intruding bison...

[ramana]

Jayram initial reports said, WgCo Abhi ejected on Indian side of LOC and his parachute drifted. Hence he asked the villagers if he was in India and found out otherwise.
In the zeal to prove India wrong all this was forgotten by chatteratti.

[Cain Marko]

There were three F-16s.
Wg Co.Abhi was pursuing one and the other guy fired the two AMRAAMs.

It's unlikely that only one 16 was being pursued by WC Abhinandan, I would guess that all 3 were being chased off by two bisons, but there were other vipers lurking in the total package of 24 and these probably took some shots. It would be very hard for pursued vipers to take bvr shots at their pursuers, the fcr simply doesn't have those angles. Maybe a su35 with tail boom radar could manage it.
Either that or one viper out of the 3 remained as top cover for those who intruded.

[ramana]

I think one of these days IAF will tell us which plane fired the AIM-120Cs at appropriate time.
They seem to have the battlefield situational awareness.
Need to cheddi utaro the US and Fizzleya.

I soon expect an arms embargo from US on Fizzle ya.
FizzleYa fired a US supplied long range missile without declaring war.

That AIM 120 C could have downed a civilian airplane with major loss of life.

This was no different than a terrorist throwing a bomb in a crowd.

[gaurav.p]

SNI article seems the most reasonable one but some holes still remain.

I guess, the sequence of events were too quick for the sukhois to take BVR and they were against the RoE. But the solahs can't fire the H4 SOW. No reference about the H4 being dropped, rather just few missiles from the solahs. Also the videos of bandaar running away doesn't add up (if taken from the indian side).

[ramana]

I think the H4 Stand Off Weapons fell short into Pak side of LOC.

[gaurav.p]

^^ https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/03 ... -shot.html

Livefist has had a chance to review photographs of the weapon remnants recovered on the Indian side, including the starboard fin section of an H-4 bomb bearing the serial number ‘P695’

[nachiket]

That AIM 120 C could have downed a civilian airplane with major loss of life.

I think the RoE of not firing BVRAAMS across the border was decided for this exact reason. It would be way too easy for an errant AAM to hit a slow moving civilian jet which just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and maybe why the IAF strictly adhered to it during the engagement. The pakis being pakis of course did not give two hoots.

This is of course a much bigger problem for us than them since there would be more civilian traffic around Srinagar than over PoK.

[nam]

A2A missiles obviously have low RCS, however a constant return allow modern radar to automatically record the path.

The biggest giveaway of A2A missile is it's speed.

Something travelling at Mach 2/3/4 with very low RCS can only be a missile or classified high mach stealth jet!

Jet RCS changes with the weapon they carry. Based on that you can deduct what weapons a jet is carrying.

[SaiK]

bravo (salute) to the significant woman afsar from the ground control! [will get a medal]

[Mort Walker]

Can a GCI or even an AEW radar spot missile launches and bombs being dropped?

It is quite astonishing to read.

An A-A missile or bomb will most likely be less than 50 cm in diameter including fins and an approximate length of 2 m. A fairly small RCS. Radar systems that are S-band have ~8 cm, C-band have ~5 cm, and X-band have ~2.5 cm wavelengths. The problem with X-band is water vapor attenuation and limited range. S and C bands will be limited by beam resolution given antenna aperture and wavelength. To make this detection, multiple radars would have to be at the varying pulse repetition frequencies and pulse widths.

1. This story is false and bogus.
2. If true, it implies a high level of automation. That is each radar on the ground and in the air is providing radar data in real-time; this would include the fighter aircraft themselves. This data is only reflectivity and velocity information, so it doesn't need huge transmission bandwidth. Along with this comms data from all aircraft involved. From Karan's post earlier we see that radar integration happened in 2015. Knowing the type of air combat engagement, the GCI stations may be automated to tell radar systems in which mode to operate. That is to track A-A missiles and bombs.
3. If No.2 above is true, then the S-400 is another radar sensor for India's air defense.

[UlanBatori]

Read and weep, yindoos! CPAF has come out with the official story

ramana: this is why IAF should reveal the truth as suggested by UBCN:
Fess up, IAF: It was an IAF Spitfire that shot down the Pak F-16. The Sopwtih Camels were only providing cover.

Now children, read this carefully:

“As regard to how to use F-16, in what context [they] were used or not – because at that point of time our entire Air Force was airborne – now it remains between Pakistan and the US to see how the MoUs regarding the use of F-16 have been adhered to or otherwise.”

See elsewhere (Rakesh!), UBCN report that specified the TOTAL number of serviceable PAF aircraft: 24 (scratch one F-16) 23 (crash in Multan) 22.

Minor point: Why is it Pakistan Army spokesperson Major General Asif Ghafoor talking about PAF?

[Sanju]

He heads ISPR - Inter-Services Pub(l)ic Relations.

[suryag]

Folks - there is no RoE set once you have an aggressor that not only transgressed but tried to bomb your installations. All this RoE is crap, during the few seconds you have who has the time to read the rule book and make measurements and confirm what can be done. All this hogwash about someone calling Delhi or MoD onbwgat can be done is hare brained and childish, the forces have enough mid level mature leaders who I presume can make decisions and are empowered to do so based on circumstances

[Bishwa]

Here's something which supports the India Today reported IAF claim this aircraft part from Horan, POK is not from a Mig 21 Bison.(cover story 20190325) The report says the a Bison has rivets on the other side & is not smooth as seen here

Smooth Sections seen in Horan, POK


The crashed Yugoslav Mig21 Bis video has been shown as proof (by Bellingcat report) that one side of this part found at Horon, POK looks similar to that seen in the Yugoslav Mig21 Bis https://t.co/nrGotdnELA
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of ... -21-wreck/

However the report does not show what the other side looks like. If one were to let the video play for a little longer, the other side of the crashed Yugoslav Mig21 Bis is visible and it has rivets and is not smooth as the part found in Horran. Just like what the India Today report says the IAF sources indicated
Riveted Sections seen in the Yogoslav Mig 21 Bis


Similar looking sides of the Horan, POK part and the Yogoslav Mig 21 Bis




The Mig21 Bison is an improvement over the Mig21 Bis. So the structural parts likely are similar

[Karan M]

Minimum RCS of an air to air missile has been analyzed as 0.006 sq mtr in X band. Will be higher in S band. Can be detected at around 50-60km per the 4th square law by pur AEW&C, provided the radar is calibrated to pick up low RCS targets. In IAF exercises, less powerful systems with a fraction of the range/power performance have tracked munitions, so theoretically possible.

[Mort Walker]

Minimum RCS of an air to air missile has been analyzed as 0.006 sq mtr in X band. Will be higher in S band. Can be detected at around 50-60km per the 4th square law by pur AEW&C, provided the radar is calibrated to pick up low RCS targets. In IAF exercises, less powerful systems with a fraction of the range/power performance have tracked munitions, so theoretically possible.

At S band you can make lots of detections, but can you resolve something that small against clutter? You obtain higher resolution using a larger antenna aperture and narrow beam. By 4th square law I assume you're talking about the radar range equation? Which again is a function of wavelength and antenna aperture. When your intent is to pick up low RCS targets, then clutter becomes a concern along with accurate velocity detection. In air combat there are going to be lots of returns of large and small objects at high velocities. To distinguish an A-A missile or bomb against larger targets would require multiple returns at different wavelengths, pulse sizes and pulse repetition rates. A radar computer with reflectivity and velocity data would have to distinguish this quickly - by quickly I mean within one scan. Not an easy task, but not impossible either. Hence, it leads one to believe there has been a high level of automation going on.

[Aditya_V]

He heads ISPR - Inter-Services Pub(l)ic Relations.

I.e Inter Services Propoganda , thier job is to emulate Joseph Gobbels.