LCA News and Discussions

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Drishyaman
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

PratikDas wrote:Drishyaman, I think you're being unfair to a BR friend who is sharing something when he doesn't need to share anything at all.
Point taken but may be you missed out the following sarcastic comment :)
nikhil_p wrote:The slightly available diameter increase is exactly the square root of 3 multiplied by the 4th root of 2 divided by the 17th root of 1796.

Do a simple calculation if a circle of say X diameter (X is cms) is increased by 'x' (x is mm) what will the increase in volumetric flow be keeping everything else constant. You will see what a simple increase in 8-10 mm can make a difference.
Sagar G wrote:Will you please point us to these "talks" ???
Please, search this thread with key words like "drag reduction" ,"Area Rule" and search in wiki for the meaning of "Area Rule" :)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

Drishyaman wrote:Please, search this thread with key words like "drag reduction" ,"Area Rule" and search in wiki for the meaning of "Area Rule" :)
I had followed that discussion but I don't remember anyone calling LCA "fat". Was it called such in that same discussion and I missed it or by some aeronautical expert ??? LCA already is smallest combat aircraft in it's class, so if someone is calling it fat I definitely want to read about that. So please point me towards that article or discussion which calls LCA "fat".
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by VikB »

This is much ado over nothing.

Paanwallah to chaiwaalah news are pimple on dimple types. Moderators- please issue guidelines for no cross questioning to the newswallah.

Too many people having too much time to disect everything. Kindly go to Anna march rather :)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Sagar G wrote:
Drishyaman wrote:Please, search this thread with key words like "drag reduction" ,"Area Rule" and search in wiki for the meaning of "Area Rule" :)
I had followed that discussion but I don't remember anyone calling LCA "fat". Was it called such in that same discussion and I missed it or by some aeronautical expert ??? LCA already is smallest combat aircraft in it's class, so if someone is calling it fat I definitely want to read about that. So please point me towards that article or discussion which calls LCA "fat".
what has the smallest combat airplane got to do with the slope of the area curve? Nobody said that LCA is fat ... but it could do better with some lengthening ... all this has been discussed very elaborately before.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

It can do better on flattening too. Something to learn from pak-fa design., of course not for mk-1 or 2, but perhaps 3..where we can consider lengthening, flattening and dual engines as well.

voila! we can call it AMCA!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

flattening it doesn't help at all ... infact that is the basis of the area rule ... the shape of the cross sectional area is immaterial when considering wave-drag.

flattening it makes it worse as it increases surface area and thus increases skin drag!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

Sagar G wrote:I had followed that discussion but I don't remember anyone calling LCA "fat". Was it called such in that same discussion and I missed it or by some aeronautical expert ??? LCA already is smallest combat aircraft in it's class, so if someone is calling it fat I definitely want to read about that. So please point me towards that article or discussion which calls LCA "fat".
If I call a baby fat and myself slim, doesn't mean that the baby's waistline is bigger than that of mine :). It may be just that baby's waistline is bigger compared to its height (read length). As Indranil rightly said lenghtening of the fuselage will solve the issue i.e. what the area rule talks about. MK2 is being lenghtened by 0.5m which will make it look slimmer. This is part of re design which is being done for MK2. It will serve the purpose of drag reduction and has been discussed in this thread earlier also.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I meant thin and long in the direction of air flow. btw, I was not thinking on the wing design but fuselage itself.

flattening the fuselage was my thought where the drag could be reduced further and directed along perhaps using airfoil connecting leading edge and blend to the wings [something like the delta wings on concorde, but having a face of pakfa/raptoriski].

I dunno.. I may be wrong here.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

Drishyaman wrote:If I call a baby fat and myself slim, doesn't mean that the baby's waistline is bigger than that of mine :). It may be just that baby's waistline is bigger compared to its height (read length). As Indranil rightly said lenghtening of the fuselage will solve the issue i.e. what the area rule talks about. MK2 is being lenghtened by 0.5m which will make it look slimmer.
sorry, but do you know what the area rule refers to? How on earth will adding a 0.5m fuselage plug right aft of the cockpit improve area ruling ? it was being done for a different reason and it helps by increasing the Tejas' slenderness ratio.. the way that area ruling may be improved is by smoothing out the fuselage and vertical tail blending.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

SaiK wrote:I meant thin and long in the direction of air flow. btw, I was not thinking on the wing design but fuselage itself.

flattening the fuselage was my thought where the drag could be reduced further and directed along perhaps using airfoil connecting leading edge and blend to the wings [something like the delta wings on concorde, but having a face of pakfa/raptoriski].

I dunno.. I may be wrong here.
No sir ... you are not right here ... flattening the fuselage doesn't help it for drag ... The PAKFA is not flat because of aerodynamics ... it is because of RCS reduction.

Hint: what is the shape of an external fuel tank?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

gotcha indranil.. me was thinking flat fuselage would also provide more lift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-_RHRAzUHM
what a bird to learn from..
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Correct me if you think I am wrong folks and I may well be off the mark. I thought "area ruling" refers to the fact that the best aerodynamic shape for a body is a cigar shape, but the "area rule" allows you to change the shape of the cigar in an unexpected way. That is if you add a bulge on the cigar - like a cockpit, you have to simultaneously create a depression on the cigar so that at any given point the cross section of the longitudinal body is exactly the same cross section as the original cigar. So also if you "press and flatten" the cigar from side to side - you can expand it from top to bottom as long as the cross sectional area of the new oval or rectangular shape you have created by such flattening is the same as that of the original circle of the cigar.

In fact this explains the ugly sunken cheeks of the front fuselage of the Rafale. Those ugly sunken cheeks compensate for the cockpit and convert the cigar cross section of the fuselage into a weird trefoil shape - but the area rule is satisfied.

If my understanding is right - the addition of a cylindrical section of fuselage will not affect the area rule in any way but the extra weight will add a penalty.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

Kartik wrote:the way that area ruling may be improved is by smoothing out the fuselage and vertical tail blending.
This is also part of re designing LCA and of minimizing drag. Area Rule talks not just about smoothening fuselage but also about achieving perfect aerodynamic shape known as Sears-Haack body just as a cigar but pointed at both ends which can be better achieved by lenghtening it by 0.5 m. This is the point which I was trying to make.
There are other drag reduction measures aswell. Do you mind putting light on other drag reduction measures as well ?
One could be which I feel is by accomodating the maximum part of the flying body (read wings which tends to remain out side the mach cone during supersonic speed which becomes a cause of drag ) within the Mach Cone. The Mach Cone becomes narrower with higher Mach number. The best design would be to accomodate as much wing as possible within the mach cone during supersonic cruise. And I am guessing by pushing the wing backwards towards the tail i.e. away from the pointed nose, a bit more of the wings could be accomodated within the narrow mach cone at supersonic speed. And this seems to be the plan of designers by lengthening the fuselage by 0.5 m and pushing the wings a bit backwards i.e. away from the nose.

Shivji,

With my limited knowledge, I understand the following (Although I may be wrong) :
A Sears Haack body, would be something like the Rugby Ball with 2 pointed ends. A Rugby Ball's aerodynamic property can be bettered by keeping the waist diameter constant and pulling the 2 ends. And by doing so the volume can be increased and also the aerodynamic characteristics can be improved. This was probably first realised by cave man, when they started hunting with javelin instead of stones. A javelin is more closer to a Sears Haack body than a stone with same cross sectional diameter. A javelin flies further than a stone of same volume and density because of Area Rule it follows and ofcourse there are other reasons of physics involved as well.

I welcome any correction to my thought :)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sivab »

Drishyaman wrote:
This was probably first realised by cave man, when they started hunting with javelin instead of stones. A javelin is more closer to a Sears Haack body than a stone with same cross sectional diameter. A javelin flies further than a stone of same volume and density because of Area Rule it follows and ofcourse there are other reasons of physics involved as well.

I welcome any correction to my thought :)
:rotfl:

Javelin and stone thrown by caveman flies at transonic and supersonic speeds?

This is why learning from internet is dangerous. But thanks for the laugh. :lol:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

sivab wrote:
:rotfl:

Javelin and stone thrown by caveman flies at transonic and supersonic speeds?

This is why learning from internet is dangerous. But thanks for the laugh. :lol:
Ha Ha Ha, that was just an analogy which I gave :D You took the analogy word by word, is it ? :mrgreen:
Anyways, its not always bad to learn from internet, as I just learnt from you via internet that Javelin doesn't travel at transonic and supersonic speeds :rotfl:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Okay so a few things.

1. Area ruling says something very simple your cross sectional area should rise and fall slowly and smoothly. "that's why a sears hack body is the least drag as the area grows slowly and tapers slowly ... Also given it's symmetric shape it creates no lift and no vortices and hence it is the most aerodynamic shape
2. The shape of the cross sectional area on drag is immaterial as long as it doesn't add to lift.

So Shiv sir you were right on all counts except 1. Rafale's sunken cheeks have nothing to do with area ruling ... it is much much more complex and I have to discuss a lot of vortex interactions. Basically, it's shape,it's diffuser and canard helps to give the Rafale phenomenal control at high AoA even at slow speeds.

Before the LCA MKII models were out, Kartik had produced a pdf detailing changes being thought of at LCA. It had the area curve of the LCA. I saw the area curve and there was a bump right where the wings started and I had asked right then that the "nose" plug doesn't make sense as we have to smoothen this bump we have to spread it over a longer length and what would make most sense would be a body plug behind the cockpit. The LCA MKII validated what I was thinking.

Drishyaman ... You are way off when you say that the LCA's wings are not behind the mach cone. LCA has a delta wing is the plane with the lowest aspect ratio. If it's wings are not well within the mach cone ... none of the other planes would have theirs behind the Mach cone ... if you calculate the cone angle at 1.6 mach is 39 degrees ... with this angle, if you check the planform of LCA, you would find that we have lots of room to spare.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by aliasgar »

"River" engine ... I like it. Reminds me of River Tam, my favorite character in Firefly / Serenity :)
Hope the engine follows the same path as her character :D
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

indranilroy wrote: Drishyaman ... You are way off when you say that the LCA's wings are not behind the mach cone. LCA has a delta wing is the plane with the lowest aspect ratio. If it's wings are not well within the mach cone ... none of the other planes would have theirs behind the Mach cone ... if you calculate the cone angle at 1.6 mach is 39 degrees ... with this angle, if you check the planform of LCA, you would find that we have lots of room to spare.
Agree with you :)
Wingspan for MK1 is 8.2 m and base of the tip of wings(i.e. where the wing ends) are probably at a distance of 12 m (approx) from the tip of nose and 10.5 m (appox) from the tip of the cockpit. Also, at Mach 1.6 the Mach Cone angle is 39 degrees and a wingspan of 8.2 m, if the MK1 is not able to accomodate its wings within the cone then probably no other fighters in its class will be able to accomodate their wings within the Mach Cone.

A question : MK2 with 100 KN (some says 120 KN) can it dream of being a Mach 2 fighter ? Well, someone can always ask, why the MK2 needs to be a Mach 2 fighter (By passing this question)?At Mach 2, the Mach Cone angle becomes approximately 30 degrees, so will the MK2 be able to accomodate the tip of its wings within the Mach Cone, considering the fact that the perpendicular distance from the tip of the nose to base of the tip of the wings will be roughly 12 m ?
Also, what other drag reduction measure can thought of for MK2 apart from smoothening fuselage and achieving Sears-Haack body shape?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Drishyaman wrote:
A question : MK2 with 100 KN (some says 120 KN) can it dream of being a Mach 2 fighter ? Well, someone can always ask, why the MK2 needs to be a Mach 2 fighter (By passing this question)?At Mach 2, the Mach Cone angle becomes approximately 30 degrees, so will the MK2 be able to accomodate the tip of its wings within the Mach Cone, considering the fact that the perpendicular distance from the tip of the nose to base of the tip of the wings will be roughly 12 m ?

There is no need to bypass the question. The answer is no. 1.6 is max. !.75 will be max for Mark II with a 1.2 meter fuselage extension behind the cockpit.

Would you now be able to state why the LCA should "dream of doing" Mach 2 without bypassing the question?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I don't know if we are thinking of crossing mach 2 for even the amca? It would be nice to have.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

shiv wrote:Would you now be able to state why the LCA should "dream of doing" Mach 2 without bypassing the question?
My answer is - Why not Sir ? :)
If it plans to go from Mach 1.6 to Mach 1.75 then why not dream of Mach 2 ?
If people are ok with Mach 1.75 ( 1.8 ) then what is the issue with Mach 2 ? :)
And, that too if that can done by working on the aerodynamic deficiencies.
I don't know if the answer is, IAF's requirement is for a Mach 1.8 fighter and MK2 will meet all the goals of IAF, as IAF is already operating fighters with Mach 2 + capability.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

mach 2 with max load?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Drishyaman wrote:
indranilroy wrote: Drishyaman ... You are way off when you say that the LCA's wings are not behind the mach cone. LCA has a delta wing is the plane with the lowest aspect ratio. If it's wings are not well within the mach cone ... none of the other planes would have theirs behind the Mach cone ... if you calculate the cone angle at 1.6 mach is 39 degrees ... with this angle, if you check the planform of LCA, you would find that we have lots of room to spare.
Agree with you :)
Wingspan for MK1 is 8.2 m and base of the tip of wings(i.e. where the wing ends) are probably at a distance of 12 m (approx) from the tip of nose and 10.5 m (appox) from the tip of the cockpit. Also, at Mach 1.6 the Mach Cone angle is 39 degrees and a wingspan of 8.2 m, if the MK1 is not able to accomodate its wings within the cone then probably no other fighters in its class will be able to accomodate their wings within the Mach Cone.

A question : MK2 with 100 KN (some says 120 KN) can it dream of being a Mach 2 fighter ? Well, someone can always ask, why the MK2 needs to be a Mach 2 fighter (By passing this question)?At Mach 2, the Mach Cone angle becomes approximately 30 degrees, so will the MK2 be able to accomodate the tip of its wings within the Mach Cone, considering the fact that the perpendicular distance from the tip of the nose to base of the tip of the wings will be roughly 12 m ?
Also, what other drag reduction measure can thought of for MK2 apart from smoothening fuselage and achieving Sears-Haack body shape?
I would try to answer your question to the best of my knowledge:
1. Even if it were to become a Mach 2 fighter the angle of the line between the nose and the wing tip and the mach line, even while going with the numbers you are giving is arc tan (4.1/12) < 19 degrees ... so there is not much to worry there ...even if see the sweep of the wing .... it seems less than 30 degrees ... so even secondary avefronts should also be tackled.

2. I am not privy to wind tunnel data, so I can only speculate on what will happen with more horses ... LCA turned out heavier than what it was initially designed for ... obviously this had an impact on it's acceleration and top speed ... So the bigger engines is more or less to offset the "extra" weight ... you would most probably see the LCA finally reaching it's top design speed of 1.6 M or 1.8 M.

3. As regards to further refinements just vis-a-vis drag, I can only speak about the ones printed in a paper:
a. make sleeker and sharper pylons,
b. at the back the area curve falls rapidly and there is a notch as well ... the notch was because of
the wing body blending extension after the trailing edge of the wing ... It will be smoothed out ...
also the parachute cap is going to be made more tapered
c. of course, there is the lengthening of the fuselage.

paging Kartik ... am I missing any of the refinements?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Drishyaman wrote:
shiv wrote:Would you now be able to state why the LCA should "dream of doing" Mach 2 without bypassing the question?
My answer is - Why not Sir ? :)
If it plans to go from Mach 1.6 to Mach 1.75 then why not dream of Mach 2 ?
If people are ok with Mach 1.75 ( 1.8 ) then what is the issue with Mach 2 ? :)
And, that too if that can done by working on the aerodynamic deficiencies.
I don't know if the answer is, IAF's requirement is for a Mach 1.8 fighter and MK2 will meet all the goals of IAF, as IAF is already operating fighters with Mach 2 + capability.
Thanks for answering. You have now shown that you do not know.

I am not the world's foremost expert but let me tell you why the LCA does not need Mach 2 any more than F-35. And let me tell you why MiG 21 has Mach 2 capability but not Rafale.

After Hiroshima and Nagasaki the major military powers and military planners of the world felt that all future wars would involve bombers dropping nuclear weapons on an enemy to end wars soon. For this reason they designed large, long range high flying bombers that could carry large bomb loads or nuclear weapons. Some of these bombers could reach altitudes that no fighters could reach. It was the effort to shoot down such bombers that there was an effort to design very fast, very high flying fighters. That led to the design philosophy that created the Delta Dart and Delta Dagger and the MiG 21. Wars in the 1970s and 1980s showed that high flying missile armed needles that could do Mach 2 plus were not needed.

In addition it was realised that most combat took place at relatively low altitude and not at 10 or 12 km up. Intruders would use terrain for radar avoidance at very low altitude. That created a need for designs that could fly low and fast. As low flying planes got faster and faster they hit the transonic barrier where any increase in speed was accompanied by drag and fuel penalty as the plane approached Mach 1 - so that even Mach 2 capable attack aircraft were doing subsonic sorties. Fuel was used up rapidly as they had to hit afterburner for speed and that degraded range. That led to the development of aircraft designs that created aircraft that were efficient in the transonic regime - i.e Mach 0.8 to 1.2. This new class of aircraft included the variable geometry fighters which are still flying (heck even the Mach 2 plus flying needles are still flying) and more modern designs capable of flying and accelerating efficiently at transonic speeds.

Mach 2 capability has simply not shown itself to play a large role in any form of air combat mainly because of fuel and drag penalty at any altitude. A MiG 21 or a MiG 23 that are capable of Mach 2 at 30,000 feet are hardly going to find that useful tangling with a Mach 1.6 capable Rafale or LCA at 3000 feet. The capability reach mach 2 at some high atltitude is less useful than a capability to accelerate efficiently and burn as little fuel as possible at speeds around 0.8 to 1.2 Mach at relatively low altitudes.

I believe your empty rhetorical answers "Why not Mach 2 for LCA?" and "Dream of Mach 2" are both a cover for ignorance about the real reasons for "Why not Mach 2" Sorry if that sounds like a taunt but I did feel that you were trying to pose clever riddles and challenges to forum members in your posts rather than merely joining the conversation. If that was not your intent, I apologise.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Questions like "Why not Sir ......" should go in the "Build your own plane" thread (start one if one is not there).

So, after all this - soccer and rugby balls, equations, javelins, (nearly forgot) Sears-Haack body, etc, have we any closer to finding out anything new about the LCA MkII (granted MkI is fat)?

As far as I can see what nikhil_p posted still stands.

Emoticons save the day.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

indranilroy wrote:
I would try to answer your question to the best of my knowledge:
1. Even if it were to become a Mach 2 fighter the angle of the line between the nose and the wing tip and the mach line, even while going with the numbers you are giving is arc tan (4.1/12) < 19 degrees ... so there is not much to worry there ...even if see the sweep of the wing .... it seems less than 30 degrees ... so even secondary avefronts should also be tackled.
The LCA cannot fly beyond Mach 1.6 (AFAIK its top speed) for a reason which hasn't to do with the thrust of the engine alone- the intake is a simpler fixed design that lacks the moving parts that ensure that beyond a certain Mach number, the supersonic flow is slowed down to sub-sonic by the time it reaches the compressor face.

Besides that, the IAF would be far more interested in increased STR (at a given altitude and fuel state) than increased top-line speed for the Tejas. The ASR mentioned 17 deg/sec (as per this link) and that hasn't been achieved on the Mk1, so that is a priority, not max speed.
I agree- the F414-IN56 will most likely ensure that the Tejas Mk2 reaches its original specs which if I remember were in the range of 19 deg/sec STR

3. As regards to further refinements just vis-a-vis drag, I can only speak about the ones printed in a paper:
a. make sleeker and sharper pylons,
b. at the back the area curve falls rapidly and there is a notch as well ... the notch was because of
the wing body blending extension after the trailing edge of the wing ... It will be smoothed out ...
also the parachute cap is going to be made more tapered
c. of course, there is the lengthening of the fuselage.

paging Kartik ... am I missing any of the refinements?


Nope, you got most of them. The original CEMILAC pdf that you mentioned is here

Prasun Sengupta mentioned in an article (which I won't post) that the length of the Tejas Mk2 had been revised to 14.2 m from 13.7m (apparently even a nose plug is included in addition to the fuselage plug just aft of the cockpit) since the booklet published for AI-11 was done at a time when the final configuration hadn't yet been frozen. If it turns out to be true, then I'll give him credit for that (since I've not seen that mentioned anywhere else) but if it turns out to be wrong, then well, my bad for even considering what he writes.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by geeth »

A question : MK2 with 100 KN (some says 120 KN) can it dream of being a Mach 2 fighter ? Well, someone can always ask, why the MK2 needs to be a Mach 2 fighter (By passing this question)?At Mach 2, the Mach Cone angle becomes approximately 30 degrees, so will the MK2 be able to accomodate the tip of its wings within the Mach Cone, considering the fact that the perpendicular distance from the tip of the nose to base of the tip of the wings will be roughly 12 m ?
Not only that, because of the engine power and aerodynamic drag, considerable changes in the structure of the a/c will have to be carried out. this again will add weight, which in turn will increase power requirement etc etc. Instead, start from scratch and design a new fighter, if you are hell bent on having a top speed of mach 2.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Kartik wrote:
Prasun Sengupta mentioned in an article (which I won't post) that the length of the Tejas Mk2 had been revised to 14.2 m from 13.7m (apparently even a nose plug is included in addition to the fuselage plug just aft of the cockpit) since the booklet published for AI-11 was done at a time when the final configuration hadn't yet been frozen. If it turns out to be true, then I'll give him credit for that (since I've not seen that mentioned anywhere else) but if it turns out to be wrong, then well, my bad for even considering what he writes.

It is correct. I was told exactly this at Aero India and I mentioned it here - but there were other sources as well IIRC. When I asked where the plug would be added I was pointed at an area behind the fuselage and in front of the intakes. I cant recall if the plug was 50 cm or longer.

Ok I found my original post 11 Feb 2011
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1028814
I had a long conversation standing next to the Kaveri. I forgot the jargon used but the Kaveri is basically ready in terms of ground tests - but it has to pass tests to show that it can withstand the rigors of flying when attached to an aircraft - such as sudden starvation of air during a maneuver. The Kaveri team in Russia would like to speed things up but Gromov Flight Test center has a great deal of experience with engines and do not allow wanton speeding up - and ask that all data from each test be carefully analysed before the next flight. The engine has met expectations so far.

The Kaveri will definitely fly on the LCA. GTRE have apparently collaborated with HAL to make sure two LCA airframes will be available for flying the Kaveri. But this Kaveri will not power the AMCA. The AMCA will have to await the Snecma-Kaveri JV. The basic changes in Snecma Kaveri were anticipated on this forum years ago by vsunder - when he heard what GTRE was asking. Pardon me if my terminology is wrong but the man, whose name I can't recall indicated the front of the engine - the "Low Pressure Turbine" I think and said the current pressure ratio is 3.4: 1 and that has to be raised to 4:1. Secondly the inside of the engine has to burn hotter. Snecma say that any transfer of blisk tech will take a decade. Having said that there was a an SDRE blisk on display and that blisk seems to be part of a new UAV engine being developed. I have images/video that I will post in due course.

The LCA is 6950 kg. I could not get much info about weight reduction. The fuselage lengthening of Mk2 will be behind the cockpit. I was told that the Mk2 cannot be lighter than the Mk 1. The Naval LCA is coming on "well" and will fly this year, but Mao was too busy talking to Adm Arun Prakash and Cmde Balaji and I could not wait. The ADS too is progressing Mao mentioned that there is close coordination between the ADS people and the NLCA people regarding what the NLCA will specifically need wrt operating off the ADS. But it is still too early for the NLCA team to put pressure on the ADS people - though both programs will eventually converge.

AMCA has got 100 crores sanctioned and te people were confident of meeting the requirements by 2017 - but they had no idea if the Snecma Kaveri would be ready by then. The Kaveri man said that he was not in a position to give dates for Snecma Kaveri and said that was in the hands of GoI.

Before I forget - a word about the range of Brahmos. The range can go up to 450 km if the altitude of the initial flight is modified from the current value to something like 17 km. More later as my memory throws up titbits.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

Cemilac paper, page 8, mentions that introducing nose plug is one of solution to the problem. In addition, the other problem facing LCA-Mk1 which the paper hasn't mentioned is, LCA MK-1 is experiencing shock wave just ahead of the intake. So fuselage plug just before intake and after cockpit is an obvious choice.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

plug meaning.. -> nose cone as in mirage 3? wouldn't the inward dent design like Rafale help?.. we could increase the fuselage size/volume to accommodate the design changes..this would also give an oppty. to increase the size of radar panels as well.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Drishyaman »

shiv wrote:I did feel that you were trying to pose clever riddles and challenges to forum members in your posts rather than merely joining the conversation.
No such intention. I was just curious. I had the following questions in my mind :
MK2 is going to have 100 KN + engine i.e. it’s going to have better thrust to weight ratio, also for MK2 the designers are undertaking some drag reduction measures. So, with the combination of the 2 changes is there a chance of MK2 becoming a Mach 2 fighter ?
If it can’t be a Mach 2, what could be limiting factors ?
If it doesn’t want to be, what could be the reasons ?
Also, if there is going to be change in diameter in the kaveri engine to meet the required thrust will that increase the weight of the engine ( or the fighter) or if that would require major redesign of the airframe ? Already, the Kaveri engine was delinked from the LCA project, now it seems somewhere seems to be a silver lining, the hope of Kaveri coming back and joining LCA project has risen.
All of the above questions which I have asked, donot have their answers written somewhere in a single place. In this forum there are different level of people, some has good understanding of the subject, some has insider knowledge, some has analytical power, some has historical knowledge of the subject.
At the same time, there are people who knows may be a little about the subject and may be are interested in knowing more about the same. There are some who has query on the subject but do not have the intension to ask it as the Gurus might come up with the stick for asking a question.

I would like to thank all of you who has answered or made an attempt to answer some of the above queries. I am quoting all the answers below :
indranilroy wrote:LCA's wings are not behind the mach cone. LCA has a delta wing is the plane with the lowest aspect ratio. If it's wings are not well within the mach cone ... none of the other planes would have theirs behind the Mach cone ... if you calculate the cone angle at 1.6 mach is 39 degrees ... with this angle, if you check the planform of LCA, you would find that we have lots of room to spare.
indranilroy wrote:1. Even if it were to become a Mach 2 fighter the angle of the line between the nose and the wing tip and the mach line, even while going with the numbers you are giving is arc tan (4.1/12) < 19 degrees ... so there is not much to worry there ...even if see the sweep of the wing .... it seems less than 30 degrees ... so even secondary avefronts should also be tackled.

2. I am not privy to wind tunnel data, so I can only speculate on what will happen with more horses ... LCA turned out heavier than what it was initially designed for ... obviously this had an impact on it's acceleration and top speed ... So the bigger engines is more or less to offset the "extra" weight ... you would most probably see the LCA finally reaching it's top design speed of 1.6 M or 1.8 M.
3. As regards to further refinements just vis-a-vis drag, I can only speak about the ones printed in a paper:
a. make sleeker and sharper pylons,
b. at the back the area curve falls rapidly and there is a notch as well ... the notch was because of the wing body blending extension after the trailing edge of the wing ... It will be smoothed out ...also the parachute cap is going to be made more tapered
c. of course, there is the lengthening of the fuselage.
shiv wrote:After Hiroshima and Nagasaki the major military powers and military planners of the world felt that all future wars would involve bombers dropping nuclear weapons on an enemy to end wars soon. For this reason they designed large, long range high flying bombers that could carry large bomb loads or nuclear weapons. Some of these bombers could reach altitudes that no fighters could reach. It was the effort to shoot down such bombers that there was an effort to design very fast, very high flying fighters. That led to the design philosophy that created the Delta Dart and Delta Dagger and the MiG 21. Wars in the 1970s and 1980s showed that high flying missile armed needles that could do Mach 2 plus were not needed.
In addition it was realised that most combat took place at relatively low altitude and not at 10 or 12 km up. Intruders would use terrain for radar avoidance at very low altitude. That created a need for designs that could fly low and fast. As low flying planes got faster and faster they hit the transonic barrier where any increase in speed was accompanied by drag and fuel penalty as the plane approached Mach 1 - so that even Mach 2 capable attack aircraft were doing subsonic sorties. Fuel was used up rapidly as they had to hit afterburner for speed and that degraded range. That led to the development of aircraft designs that created aircraft that were efficient in the transonic regime - i.e Mach 0.8 to 1.2. This new class of aircraft included the variable geometry fighters which are still flying (heck even the Mach 2 plus flying needles are still flying) and more modern designs capable of flying and accelerating efficiently at transonic speeds.
Mach 2 capability has simply not shown itself to play a large role in any form of air combat mainly because of fuel and drag penalty at any altitude. A MiG 21 or a MiG 23 that are capable of Mach 2 at 30,000 feet are hardly going to find that useful tangling with a Mach 1.6 capable Rafale or LCA at 3000 feet. The capability reach mach 2 at some high atltitude is less useful than a capability to accelerate efficiently and burn as little fuel as possible at speeds around 0.8 to 1.2 Mach at relatively low altitudes.
Kartik wrote:The LCA cannot fly beyond Mach 1.6 (AFAIK its top speed) for a reason which hasn't to do with the thrust of the engine alone- the intake is a simpler fixed design that lacks the moving parts that ensure that beyond a certain Mach number, the supersonic flow is slowed down to sub-sonic by the time it reaches the compressor face.
Besides that, the IAF would be far more interested in increased STR (at a given altitude and fuel state) than increased top-line speed for the Tejas. The ASR mentioned 17 deg/sec (as per this link) and that hasn't been achieved on the Mk1, so that is a priority, not max speed.
Kartik wrote:Prasun Sengupta mentioned in an article (which I won't post) that the length of the Tejas Mk2 had been revised to 14.2 m from 13.7m (apparently even a nose plug is included in addition to the fuselage plug just aft of the cockpit) since the booklet published for AI-11 was done at a time when the final configuration hadn't yet been frozen. If it turns out to be true, then I'll give him credit for that (since I've not seen that mentioned anywhere else) but if it turns out to be wrong, then well, my bad for even considering what he writes.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

shiv wrote: It is correct. I was told exactly this at Aero India and I mentioned it here - but there were other sources as well IIRC. When I asked where the plug would be added I was pointed at an area behind the fuselage and in front of the intakes. I cant recall if the plug was 50 cm or longer.
yes Shiv, but the key new info that he's provided (or claim as we'll find out) is that its not a 0.5m extension alone, which was the info that came out from AI-11..it's actually a 1m extension, leading to a total length of 14.2m not 13.7m as all AI-11 brochures for the Tejas Mk2 claimed. And that the plug will be both for the nose as well as the fuselage just aft of the cockpit.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

SaiK wrote:plug meaning.. -> nose cone as in mirage 3? wouldn't the inward dent design like Rafale help?.. we could increase the fuselage size/volume to accommodate the design changes..this would also give an oppty. to increase the size of radar panels as well.
plug as in a nose extension- see the difference between the Atlas Cheetah and the original Mirage3 to see how it looks.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

SaiK wrote:plug meaning.. -> nose cone as in mirage 3? wouldn't the inward dent design like Rafale help?.. we could increase the fuselage size/volume to accommodate the design changes..this would also give an oppty. to increase the size of radar panels as well.
The pink-brown cylinder in the middle is a fuselage plug
Image
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by tsarkar »

shiv wrote:After Hiroshima and Nagasaki the major military powers and military planners of the world felt that all future wars would involve bombers dropping nuclear weapons on an enemy to end wars soon. For this reason they designed large, long range high flying bombers that could carry large bomb loads or nuclear weapons. Some of these bombers could reach altitudes that no fighters could reach. It was the effort to shoot down such bombers that there was an effort to design very fast, very high flying fighters. That led to the design philosophy that created the Delta Dart and Delta Dagger and the MiG 21. Wars in the 1970s and 1980s showed that high flying missile armed needles that could do Mach 2 plus were not needed.
Machine gun and cannon fire are useless against large bombers – because size did matter + 4 engines offered some redundancy. The Japs countered that by suicide ramming while Germans developed unguided air to air rockets. They came up with a guided rocket (or early AAM) but too late to have an effect in the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4M_rocket
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_cm_Nebe ... Granate_21
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrstahl_X-4

The cold war was a continuation of earlier R&D effort. The only way of taking down large bombers was AAM. AAM required to be fast, otherwise the small missiles would lose the energy of their relatively meagre propellant before catching up with the enemy bomber. The only way to guide fast & hence long range missiles was semi active radar homing. IIR would get confused with too many heat sources along the way. Now radars were not so advanced those days (50's & 60's) and were not as long ranged as today's radars. For SARH, the radar required to beam enough energy so that the reflected beam contained enough energy to be picked up by the small missile radar receiver. This couldn't be achieved at standoff range by fighter radars of those days. The MiG-21 bis radar had a detection range of only 20 km.

Hence the need of Mach 2 speed for the launch aircraft radar to keep up with the missile. The [relatively] closer the launch aircraft comes to its targets, more energy pumped on the target and more energy reflected and better chance for the SARH missile to track and lock to target. Hence the slash-and-peel-off attacks of the 60's.

This had two drawbacks.

1.Low endurance - Most fighters could fly for about an hour with a supersonic dash of single digit minutes during engagement and then land. This was deemed acceptable in situations where Russian / US bomber fleets would approach and fighters would launch and guide their missiles and turn back.

2.Engine wear – Most engines those days had very low TBO. The Wopen 6 turbojets on the A-5 of that generation has a TBO of 100 hours. However this too was deemed acceptable, since the fighter was expected to fly 40 sorties a month before engine overhaul while the pilots would go to Paris for R&R. This is the reason why one found most fighter aces in Paris half the time and why fighter aces had multiple planes – they would fly a replacement while their original was being repaired and overhauled. The Russians and Chinese simply junked their planes.

The Parisian interlude was jolted when SYRE Vietnamese started fighting. Their country was poured bombs as heavy as rain. So they needed to fly their planes slower for getting higher TBO. Since they flew slow, they would sneak under cloud cover degrading US EC121 AEW radar coverage and snipe at the Yankees.

Everyone knows how Col Robin Olds ambushed the Vietnamese during Operation Bolo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bolo

but not many know that the Vietnamese returned the favour to Col Robin Olds himself. They learnt their lessons and honed their skills in just seven months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_23_August_1967

That is when missiles and Mach 2 was junked. The F-4 got cannons, USN got Topgun, the rest is history.

From the subcontinental perspective, PAC Kamra started out as F-6 Rebuild Factory and will now assemble JF-17.

These days, we need supersonic at all altitudes rather than max speed, and datalink has eliminated the need to for the aircraft to run along with the missile.

@ Shiv – regarding our earlier discussions on A-10 ground firing, here is something of interest -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fight ... nitiatives
were armed with the 30 mm GAU-13/A four-barrel derivative of the seven-barrel GAU-8/A cannon used by the A-10A........The vibration from the gun when firing proved so severe as to make both aiming and flying the aircraft difficult, and trials were suspended after two days.


The A-10 is built more like a tank than an aircraft.

While I was discussing this with friends, I discovered that the MiG-27 GSh-6-30 gun is equally powerful, though w/o depleted uranium or tungsten carbide bullets. These beasts were purchased with the planned purchase of M1 Abrams tanks by Pakistan in mind. Its a different story that the M1 didn't perform as expected and Zia was killed returning from the trials. Too bad the Iraqis didn't get a chance to fly their birds against the US M1s...

Too bad Russian were deficient in electronics and targeting technology, and there was no Litening pod then, otherwise the ******** in their sangars @ Kargil could have been nailed proper.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

[/whine] chalo another of our deadlines is about to slip[whine]
suryag
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1670 Test Flights successfully. (25-Aug-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-206,PV3-291,LSP1-67,LSP2-175,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-38,LSP5-35)

LCA-Tejas has completed 1667 Test Flights successfully. (10-Aug-2011)
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-291,LSP1-67,LSP2-175,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-34)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

As if the current set of problems that the LCA program were not enough now this
LCA tejas parts go missing
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rajanb »

suryag wrote:As if the current set of problems that the LCA program were not enough now this
LCA tejas parts go missing
Utterly shocking and a shameful example of dereliction of duty.

Things seemed to have changed as contracts with HAL or other Govt. aeronautical/aerospace industries specified that delivery was CIF and deemed to be completed on inspection by customer at specified premises. And yes, the contracts were in the range of Rs10 Crore.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Aditya_V »

suryag wrote:As if the current set of problems that the LCA program were not enough now this
LCA tejas parts go missing
What would be worse if we dont reorder the parts and get the programme to continue. it is a 10 crore loss take it on the chin and move on for a such a large programme, dont paralyse the programme because of this.

Loss in transit is a common commercial problem and does and stop businesses anywhere.
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