US and PRC relationship & India

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ramana
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

This is the tipping point for which this thread was started about four years ago. Refer to the speech by Shaym Saran in the first post of this thread.....

Rajamohan advises India to side with US the leader of the West....

A new day in Asia


A new day in Asia

Rapidly unfolding developments to our east and west — the unexpected détente between the United States and Iran and the growing confrontation between China and Japan — demand that New Delhi discard its traditional impulse to view Asia through the anti-Western prism. The idea of Asian solidarity against the West, developed during the colonial era, has long been presumed to be a fundamental principle of India's foreign policy.

Despite repeated challenges to this proposition from the real world, Delhi pretends that nothing has changed. Unlike in the past, India's reluctance to confront the sources of Asian geopolitics will involve many costs. A globalised Indian economy today is very sensitive to regional developments, and ideological posturing meant for domestic politics could complicate the pursuit of India's national interests in Asia.

At the same time, given its size and the relative increase in its regional weight, India is in a good position to shape regional outcomes. But only if Delhi is ready to shed some of its foreign policy shibboleths. India must come to terms with the fact that some of the major certitudes that guided global politics since the end of the Cold War are beginning to fade way. Post-Cold War triumphalism in America gave birth to extraordinary hubris. Both the left and right in America believed that US power is inexhaustible and can be deployed to change the world. This delusion translated into profound tragedies in the greater Middle East. The hope that America can promote democracy, rebuild failed states and roll back the spread of advanced technologies across the developing world has come a cropper in the Middle East.

After two exhausting wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, US President Barack Obama has become the biggest champion of a restrained foreign policy for America. In avoiding a military involvement in Syria and actively seeking a modus vivendi with Iran, Obama has invited the wrath of American foreign policy hawks. But his decision to put America on a less adventurous path in the Middle East and focus on nation-building at home has much popular support. Many people in the world, including in India, who agonised about unrestrained American power, must now come to terms with an America that is ready to downsize its global role.

{To be noted that US has two exhaustions. third unstated is the wrong propping up of Wall Street to the neglect of Main Street.}

Obama's realism was not enough to produce the interim nuclear accord with Iran; it needed pragmatism in Tehran. President Hassan Rouhani, backed by Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has challenged the powerful domestic proponents of a permanent confrontation with the US. While the effort by Rouhani and Obama might yet fall apart, there is no denying that anti-Americanism is no longer politically chic in Asia. Few countries in the world have had so many real reasons to be anti-American than the Islamic Republic of Iran — from the CIA coup against an elected leader in 1954, to support for an authoritarian monarchy that lasted many decades, to an intense hostility to Tehran since the revolution of 1979. In seeking political accommodation with the US, which has been long demonised in Iran, and offering significant nuclear concessions, Rouhani and Khamenei have buried the logic of anti-Americanism in the Middle East.

{He makes sweeping generalizations here. Iran has realised that pursuing nukes is a long term cost prohibitive venture. Surviving to fight another day is more helpful. The very day Syria agreed to chemical weapon disarmament the writing was on the wall. Further Iran has three strengths in West Asia- Oil, demographics and Shia sect of Islam which sees its power in Iran. Nukes don't figure in this scheme and jepoardise that. Same token US has relaised Iran is no Iraq.}

If the relative decline of America has begun to induce some political realism into US foreign policy, the clamour for American support is rapidly rising in East Asia. Stunned by Beijing's assertion of power and its muscular approach to territorial disputes, many of China's Asian neighbours are seeking more intensive defence and security cooperation with Washington. Communist Vietnam, which fought against America in the 1960s and 1970s, is now eager to sustain US military presence in the region. Manila, which threw America out of its naval and air bases at the end of the 1980s, now wants the US military to return and prevent China from nibbling away at the territory of the Philippines.

{These countries are inviting an outsider due to fear of the local bully. It has nothing to do with the past hsitory which was a mistake anyway.}

It is only in India, it seems, ideological considerations take precedence over national security considerations. Keeping some distance from the US in East and West Asia has long been a major theme of Indian diplomacy. While a large nation like India cannot ever align with the US, seeking deliberate distance from Washington for presumed ideological reasons has had a corrosive effect on India's worldview. Recall the debate in 2005, when many foreign policy pundits in Delhi denounced India for voting with the US on the Iran issue at the IAEA. They were asking India to sacrifice its own interests, such as ending its long nuclear isolation, for preserving what was called Delhi's "principled" foreign policy.

{This is incorrect reading. The US has been bending over backwards to support the TSP. Even when it is down and out it still pumps in $ into TSP to keep it afloat. Further while the rhetoric might be about principles the reality is that Iran was and is a major supporter of India and the angst was about that and the appearance of a sellout for the illusive nuke deal.}

In East Asia too, the idea of maintaining distance from the US is now considered important for the preservation of India's strategic autonomy. For many in Asia, in contrast, it is the rise of China that constrains their strategic autonomy. Acknowledging that fact, however, goes against political correctness in the UPA government.

Finally, India's obsession with non-alignment and anti-Western solidarity often prevents it from seeing the multiple contradictions within East and West Asia. In the Middle East, it is not just the US and other great powers that are shaping the region's destiny. The growing contradiction between the interests of Iran and Saudi Arabia and the mounting sectarian tension between the Shia and Sunni are perhaps as consequential today as the role of great powers. In East Asia, China's conflicts with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines are as critical as the uncertainty in the relations between Beijing and Washington.

Managing these regional contradictions will be a major challenge for India's Asia policy in the coming years. Non-alignment, strategic autonomy and Asian solidarity might be attractive slogans for some, but offer no guidance for the conduct of India's foreign policy in East Asia and the Middle East. To cope with the new geopolitical imperatives, India must learn to deal with Asia on its own terms and stop imposing its ideological preferences on the region.


C RAJA MOHAN

The writer is a distinguished fellow at the Observer Research Foundation and a contributing editor for 'The Indian Express'

express@expressindia.com
In the 40s K.M. Pannikar had written a book, "Asia and Western Dominance" (you can download it) that chronicled how by dominating Asia in the 18th-19th centuries led to rise of the West. And made the case for solidarity in Asia against the West. The decolonization and NAM drive after WWII was due to this insight. By throwing of its shackles India inspired many colonial regions from Africa to Asia to throw of the colonial yoke. However the spectre of Communist takeover clouded the region leading to the Cold War.

Further the PRC saw India as a competitor and moved in with US to break that solidarity.

Now Rajamohan suggests India should repay the coin. However the grand strategy was to re-enable the rise of Asia. By undercutting the PRC by aligning with US, India would defeat her own strategy!
The better option is to treat this as Pacific issue as its not an Asia issue and let them settle it.

Rise of China confronts US more than it confronts India now and in the forseeable future.
No need to incurr costs by India for the remanance of the West.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Paul »

Further the PRC saw India as a competitor and moved in with US to break that solidarity.
This happened with Mao and Deng supping with the US to break the USSR. The biggest beneficiary of USSR breakup is paradoxically China, not the USA as many of us would like to believe.

It is time to revitalize a network of alliances across Asia to contain China the way it was done for USSR.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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We started this thread ~ 5 years ago to see how US-PRc dance affects India.
While we are agitated about Indian diplomat Devyani Khobargade's arrest and humiliation in New York this action could be shot across the bows to signal PRC that the bogus US support of rise of India was just that.

We should track the PRC opinion to see how this is perceived in PRC.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by KrishnaK »

ramana wrote:Rise of China confronts US more than it confronts India now and in the forseeable future. No need to incurr costs by India for the remanance of the West.
Very true, it is indeed US territory that China claims today.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 505057.ece
Devyani case just the beginning of tensions

The row over the treatment of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade by U.S. authorities was “just the beginning” of tensions between New Delhi and Washington, a commentary in a Party-run Chinese newspaper said Thursday.

With Chinese strategic analysts closely following the developments in the case and what impact it would have on India-U.S. ties, the commentary said there were “risks that may explode any moment” because of a mismatch in expectations from both sides.

“Indians see humiliating their diplomat as seriously jeopardising India’s international image,” wrote Liu Zongyi, a scholar at the Shanghai Institutes for International Studies, in an article published by the Global Times, a tabloid known for its nationalistic views published by the People’s Daily, the Communist Party’s official paper.

“India has perceived itself as a power with a global influence and a relatively high international status. It requests due respect from other powers,” the commentary said.

It, however, said the media and political parties were “responsible for exaggerating the Khobragade case” and “hyping issues related to national pride.”

While noting that India’s ties with the U.S. had been deepened recently with both countries speaking of “a natural alliance,” Mr. Liu said there were other “risks that may explode any moment.”

“The two have different expectations of bilateral ties: India hopes to rely on the U.S. to improve [its]international position… but it is unwilling to be a tool of the U.S. in containing China, while the U.S. aims at making use of India to balance China and wants a more open Indian market. These mismatching goals offer the potential of conflict.”

The commentary predicted that both sides will find an opportunity to “cool things down” regarding the Khobragade case, but the recent troubles were “just a beginning”.

“If the Bharatiya Janata Party candidate Narendra Modi is elected as Indian Prime Minister in the 2014 elections,” Mr. Liu concluded, “relations will have to confront real challenges then, especially since the U.S. still refuses to issue Modi a visa.”
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by g.sarkar »

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/staterun-chi ... 3-244.html
State-run Chinese daily lauds launch of first indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant
"Beijing: In a rare praise, a leading state-run Chinese daily has lauded the launch of India's first indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, saying it marks a "firm stride" towards domestic production of hi-tech arms.
"The launch of India's home-built aircraft carrier is indeed worth celebrating, because it marks a firm stride toward the indigenisation of arms," an article on the state-run Global Times' website said.
"The launch also shows that the Indian government has had preliminary success in localising arms production," the report said, noting that India has invested billions of dollars in the construction, research and development of domestic shipbuilding....."
Gautam
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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X-post...
johneeG wrote:
KrishnaK wrote:The US is no threat and the PRC no friend.
Amirkhan is THE threat. So far, Amirkhan is joined at hip to all of the threats that dhesh faces. Bakis(or jihadhis in general), PRC, ...etc are all tied to amirkhan at the hip. Without wink and nod help from the amirkhan, these others wouldn't have risen in the first place.

Now, chins seem to want to use amirkhans in short term and eventually rise to a level where they can challenge amirkhan(and its euro acolytes). amirkhan seems to want to use chin to prolong its fall of empire. They are frenmies.

Similarly, jihadhis want to use amirkhan to do their bidding and finally challenge amirkhan. And amirkhan wants to use jihadhis to keep all others destabilized to prolong the pax amirkhana. So, frenmies again.

But, without the support of amirkhan, these powers are nothing. So, these threats are propped up by amirkhan.

----
Japanese seem to have a strong martial culture(a culture that venerates martial arts and glorifies warfare). So, its present pacifist avatar is deviation which has been foisted on it after WW2 defeat. At some point, japan will come out of this and return to its real nature. In a way, this is similar to Bhaarath being a pacifist and 'secular' country too.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia ... 51113.html
India an alternative to China
monopoly in Central Asia
By Umida Hashimova

With China promoting its own Silk Road vision in Central Asia, it seems that the New Silk Road Initiative promoted by the United States has been eclipsed. Nonetheless, there is still an opportunity for the US to promote much-needed trade relations between Central Asia and Afghanistan with India, as well as connect this region with the emerging Southeast Asian markets.

Not coincidentally, then-secretary of state Hillary Clinton first announced the New Silk Road Initiative in Chennai, India, in 2011 (see here). Increased trade with India would offer diversification and needed balance in the region, helping avoid a Chinese monopoly.

But sustained trade engagement between India and Central Asia and Afghanistan - which could potentially pave the way for long-term Afghan stabilization - requires a push and commitment from the US. The latest developments in the region, however, suggest that the players concerned are still far from reaching such cooperation.

The 12th Ministerial Conference of the Central Asia Regional Economic Cooperation (CAREC) countries, funded by the Asian Development Bank (ADB), took place in Astana on October 24. ADB president Takehiko Nakao spoke about how Central Asia can become a transport link for the RICE countries (Russia, India, China and emerging Europe). He also stressed the need to align CAREC corridors to new routes. Indeed, Nakao's CAREC conference speech described an ideal, best-case scenario for Central Asia; however, neither his organization nor any other financial body has laid out how to materialize this vision.

At The Jamestown Foundation's October 25 New Silk Road conference in Washington, DC, Dr S Frederick Starr, chairman of the Central Asia - Caucasus Institute and Silk Road Studies Program at Johns Hopkins - SAIS, pointed out that the CAREC road infrastructure project is missing one very important link: it is limited to road projects within Central Asia and Afghanistan and lacks transit corridors to India, one of the major cargo centers closest to the region that sits between Southeast Asian and Middle Eastern markets.

Continuing this line of thought, Dr Starr noted that the main obstacle is not financial constraint, but rather failure to develop smart strategies by bringing everyone to the same table.

However, when the conference's later speaker Craig Stephenson, ADB's North America representative, was asked to comment on the involvement of CAREC in such inter-regional road projects, he said that the CAREC framework was designed solely to interconnect Central Asian countries and Afghanistan and had no plans for infrastructure development beyond the region.

Even if ADB's CAREC wished to pursue Central Asia's interconnection with India, additional financial resources, which are not currently available, would be required, he added.

India's foreign trade has been expanding considerably over the last few years, including with Central Asia. According to Evgeniy Vinokurov, of the Eurasian Development Bank's Center for Integrated Studies, based in St Petersburg, Russia, India's foreign trade has been increasing at around 19% since 2000. In 2008, India earned US$43 billion from exports to the European Union and almost $3 billion from exports to Northern and Central Eurasia - compared to 2000, when these numbers were $12 billion and $0.7 billion, respectively.

For Central Asia and Afghanistan, the potential for trading with India, as well as transit through India to reach Southeast Asian markets, is huge and is the core of the developing North-South Corridor for trade and transit in Eurasia.

Vinokurov argues that, according to predictions, the delivery time of goods traveling along the North-South Corridor would be reduced by anywhere from 10 to 20 days and that the cost per container would decrease by $400 - $500, compared to the more circuitous routes through neighboring countries that are in use currently.

However, due to the continued lack of infrastructure development and the availability of already established routes, freight forwarders are little interested in transit corridors through Afghanistan at the moment. If the North-South Corridor can be successfully developed, an estimated $100 - $120 billion worth of goods could be passing through Central Asia and Afghanistan - up to 20% of India's $500 - $600 billion worth of trade with Europe, the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Infrastructure construction aside, the Central Asian republics and Afghanistan still also need to overcome serious legal, pricing, transportation and trade-procedure harmonization obstacles. The World Bank and the International Finance Corporation's 2014 Doing Business report reveals that Central Asian countries and Afghanistan occupy the lowest levels in the Trading Across Border category, which measures the number of documents, number of days, and costs for importing and exporting goods to and from a surveyed country.

The Central Asian republics and Afghanistan received rankings between 182 and 189, with Uzbekistan receiving the lowest rank of 189 out of all 189 countries surveyed. These countries clearly still have a long way to go until the region's international trade potential is fully realized and local pricing and legal hurdles are overcome.

The US State Department's Fatema Sumar noted at the aforementioned October 24 CAREC ministerial in Astana that it takes the CAREC countries 65 - 90 days to export goods, as opposed to only 15 days for exports to be shipped out of India.

Compared to Russia and China, India's presence in Central Asia is still marginal. However, its growing economic and energy needs (the country is consuming only about half of the natural gas its economy currently requires) will push India to keep looking for areas of cooperation with Central Asia, which so far have been underwhelming
(see Eurasia Daily Monitor, July 9, October 15).

Nevertheless, promoting India's cooperation within the New Silk Road Initiative and working with Central Asian countries to overcome non-infrastructure related issues, such as legal and pricing issues in border transit, is a niche that the US can exploit with potentially tremendous results. India's greater involvement in the region would likely be welcomed by Central Asian governments to help balance China and Russia's presence.

Umida Hashimova is an independent scholar based in Washington, D.C. She is a native of Uzbekistan, where she used to work for the United Nations mission before moving to the US.

(This article first appeared in The Jamestown Foundation. Used with permission.)

(Copyright 2013 The Jamestown Foundation.)


Gives new understanding to what are Indian interests in Afghanistan.

Will x-post in Af-Pak thread.....
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Wall Street Journal had an article from US demanding that Abe not visit the Yakusone shrine again!!!
Subscription article.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Who cares
They are batting for PRC now!
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Munnas in India have to understand that US is batting for PRC against Japan!!!
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by abhischekcc »

If US is batting for China, and there is growing friendship between India and Japan, and India and Russia are already friends, then perhaps an Indian-Japan-Russian alliance is very much probable. :eek:
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by chanakyaa »

Wall Street Journal had an article from US demanding that Abe not visit the Yakusone shrine again!!!
US definitely benefits from trade perspective with the intense hatred between PRC and Japan. And, if I were them, why wouldn't I keep stoking forever? In addition, Europeans would love to keep the fire going, as well. More of Japan hatred by PRC means they import less Hondas and Toyotas and more of GM and Ford, also more of John Deere type heavy equipment compared to Japanese equivalent, just to name a few industries in which Western and Japanese companies compete intensely. To counter this loss in revenue, If I were a Japanese, I would get closer to countries like India which don't dislike Japan as much. And, make the fools in India believe that the closeness is due to some democratic values.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Bharat Karnad:
America an unreliable partner
America an Unreliable Partner
By Bharat Karnad
Published: 24th January 2014 06:00 AM
Last Updated: 24th January 2014 07:24 AM


If there’s one attribute about the United States that makes partnering it risky, it is its unreliability. Washington initiates conflict as suits its momentary interest without caring about the possible ramifications for the countries, including allies, in the vicinity and effect on the prevailing order, which may not be to its liking but manifests stability. It is unscrupulous about the means it uses and, when the situation gets hot and body bags and fatigue take their toll, it thinks nothing about precipitously departing the scene leaving its regional partners holding the can. The absence of grit, stamina, and the will to absorb losses and to stay the course, is America’s major strategic failing that countries expecting the US to bail them out in strategic crises need to ponder.

Consider the recent record. The US intervened controversially in Iraq in 2001 to remove Saddam Hussein leading to a revival of the old Shia-Sunni schism, endless sectarian violence and consolidation of Islamist militancy in the beleaguered country. Thirteen years on, Washington decided to decamp with the “democracy” it has installed in Baghdad showing few signs of enduring. So infirm is its commitment that a few weeks ago it turned down prime minister Nouri al-Maliki’s plea for help militarily to oust the militant Sunni group with known connections to the Al-Qaeda occupying the cities of Fallujah and Ramadi in the Anbar province.

Elsewhere, after a decade of hard fighting in Afghanistan the Americans, longtime experts in “cut and run” tactics, are allowing a condominium of Afghan and Pakistani Taliban—the latter headed by the enigmatic Mullah Fazlullah operating out of the North Waziristan mountains—to displace in slow stages the legally elected government in Kabul and, simultaneously, to create sustained turmoil and dissension inside Pakistan in a bid to take over an already fragile nuclear armed state—everyone’s worst nightmare. Of course, Washington originally seeded this problem which is turning out to be catastrophic for South Asia. It exploited religion to rile the Afghans into fighting the Soviet Union-supported communist regime in Kabul, armed and motivated the Afghan mujahideen who, post-Russian withdrawal, in their new avatar as the Taliban spawned extremist outfits drawing disgruntled Muslims from everywhere, especially Central Asia and as far away as Chechnya. They are creating havoc in Pakistan and Indian Kashmir, and spurring Sunni radicalism in the Islamic crescent from the Maghreb to Indonesia.

India was recently reminded that its concerns about terrorism emanating from Pakistan, for example, count for little in the American scheme of things. In the Consolidated Appropriations Bill 2014 approved by the US legislature the conditions attached to Pakistan getting the annual multi-billion dollar grant-in-aid broadly requires that Islamabad only ensure that the Afghan Taliban under its control do not harass the retreating US and NATO forces in Afghanistan, and that the Pakistan Army don’t usurp power. Moreover, while Washington is anxious that any terrorist threat to America incubating in the proliferating Saudi-funded madrassas within Pakistan be nipped in the bud, it doesn’t much care and is unwilling to throttle the menace before it assumes demonic proportions by pressing Riyadh to halt financial flows to them and by prompting the Islamabad Establishment and Pakistan Army to sever their patronage ties to 65 “Taliban groups” and lashkars active in that country.

Tokyo was likewise presented with more evidence by Washington that while Japan is central to its “rebalancing” in Asia in America’s direct rivalry with China, it would rather sit out any military clash Japan may have with China over the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. It seems to have even bought Beijing’s line that visits by the Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe to the Yasukuni Shrine, revered by the Japanese people as the repository of the souls of the dead in past military campaigns, was avoidable provocation. In the event, Tokyo finally appears determined to look out for itself, and is amending its “peace Constitution” to legitimate “collective self-defence”.

It is the wayward and “unreliable America” then that contextualises the discussion between Abe, who’ll be the chief guest at the Republic Day celebrations, and his retiring Indian counterpart, Manmohan Singh, about how best and quickly to operationalise comprehensive military cooperation between the two nations. Collective self-defence is precisely what Singh should fruitfully discuss in detail with Abe and the Indian armed services and the Japanese Self Defence Force ought to begin implementing in earnest. It is preferable to New Delhi and Tokyo, ever mindful of Beijing’s sensitivities, holding back on joint Indo-Japanese military activity to cramp China’s strategic and maritime options in Asia.

India has a more immediate issue at hand vis-a-vis the US. Under pressure from the Manmohan Singh government, the ministry of external affairs is compromising on the strict reciprocity predicate ordinarily dictating equitable interstate relations. Indian ambassador S Jaishankar is concocting a deal with US deputy secretary of state William Burns whereby not only is there no hint of an US apology for the Devyani Khobragade incident, but in exchange for Khobragade and two previous Indian consul-generals in New York who had servant trouble being able to enter America freely in the future without fear of prosecution, the status quo ante favouring the US diplomats stationed in India is restored. They will once again enjoy immunities and privileges—unhindered access and exemption from body searches at airports, income tax-free status for family members working illegally, leniency in import of victuals, etc.—unavailable on a reciprocal basis to Indian diplomats posted in America. This is unacceptable.

New Delhi has buckled under the threat of prosecution of Indian diplomats and accepted the US minimum wage standard. The principle of sanctity of Indian embassies/consulates as sovereign territory and carryings-on within them as sovereign matter has thus been breached, mocking the foundational principle of sound bilateral ties. It will confirm the US view of India as a bully-able country. This will only weaken the frame of the strategic partnership the US is keen to forge with India, and doesn’t bode well for the “rebalancing” in Asia both countries are engaged in.

The author is professor at the Centre for Policy Research and blogs at www.bharatkarnad.com
US wants gungadins for its water boys.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Elsewhere, after a decade of hard fighting in Afghanistan the Americans, longtime experts in “cut and run” tactics, are allowing a condominium of Afghan and Pakistani Taliban—the latter headed by the enigmatic Mullah Fazlullah operating out of the North Waziristan mountains—to displace in slow stages the legally elected government in Kabul and, simultaneously, to create sustained turmoil and dissension inside Pakistan in a bid to take over an already fragile nuclear armed state—everyone’s worst nightmare. Of course, Washington originally seeded this problem which is turning out to be catastrophic for South Asia. It exploited religion to rile the Afghans into fighting the Soviet Union-supported communist regime in Kabul, armed and motivated the Afghan mujahideen who, post-Russian withdrawal, in their new avatar as the Taliban spawned extremist outfits drawing disgruntled Muslims from everywhere, especially Central Asia and as far away as Chechnya. They are creating havoc in Pakistan and Indian Kashmir, and spurring Sunni radicalism in the Islamic crescent from the Maghreb to Indonesia.
This is exactly what they are planning for. An Islamic crescent.
They want to change cultures and society by any means. Either by war or social engineering
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Could have X-Posted in many threads but this one has the context......

Asia's Historical Furies-Jaswant Singh
Asia’s Historical Furies
Article | December 17, 2013 - 8:35am | By Jaswant Singh

Tokyo - A country’s foreign policy is supposed to be aimed, first and foremost, at advancing its national interest. But, in large parts of Asia, the national interest – whether building commercial ties or bolstering security – is often subordinated to history and its hold on the popular imagination. As US Vice President Joe Biden just discovered on his tour of Japan, China, and South Korea, the American novelist William Faulkner’s observation – “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.” – could not be more apt.

One commonly cited example of this is the relationship between India and Pakistan. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif recognize the vast economic potential of enhanced bilateral trade ties, and the progress that they have sought in this area is clearly in both countries’ national interest. But their diplomatic overtures have been quickly stymied by those who cannot accept such reasoning, going so far at times as to commit acts of terror and launch military incursions.

But Asia’s history problem is not confined to its democracies, where public opinion directly influences the government’s actions. China and Vietnam, too, remain in thrall of their long and bitter shared history. The late General Vo Nguyen Giap, who led Vietnam through wars with France and the United States to independence, spent his final years protesting against Chinese investment in his country.

Perhaps Asia’s most dangerous case of historical obsession is to be found in the relationship between China and Japan. The current dispute in the East China Sea over the Japanese-controlled Senkaku Islands (the Diaoyu Islands in China) would likely be less tense if the atrocities of the Sino-Japanese War were not rehashed so often in contemporary Chinese life.

In fact, Japan has attempted to atone for its past actions, including by offering enthusiastic support to Deng Xiaoping’s efforts to open up the Chinese economy. The trillions of yen that Japanese businesses have invested in China since the 1990’s – not to mention the transfer of critical technologies – could not have been about profit alone (and, in any case, Japanese investment has benefited both economies).

But, while these efforts have helped to deepen Japan’s economic ties with China, they have not had the transformative impact on bilateral relations that one might have expected. Indeed, their relationship is now characterized by what the Japanese call seirei keinetsu (cold politics, hot economics).

Bad history also stalks the relationship between Japan and South Korea – a particularly revealing case, given how closely their strategic interests align. Here are two democracies, both among America’s closest allies, unable to overcome the burden of the past. For South Koreans, it is a heavy burden, rooted in Japanese colonization and the myriad horrors of World War II. But the simple fact is that both countries would benefit substantially, in security terms in particular, from effective cooperation.

In fact, serei keinetsu defines the Asian status quo: countries that cannot seem to overcome their historical animosities when it comes to foreign policy readily acknowledge that better relations means better economies. East Asia, in particular, has experienced an unprecedented surge in intra-regional trade, investment, and even tourism over the last two decades.

Yet there is reason for hope – and it is coming from an unexpected source. With China’s efforts to assert itself as a regional hegemon stoking fears across Asia, its neighbors seem to be increasingly willing to vacate old grudges in favor of stronger alliances. For example, Japan’s relations with Vietnam and Myanmar, both of which border China, have been warming rapidly in recent years – a trend that Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has sought to cultivate.

Likewise, the Philippines – locked in a stand-off with China over the disputed Scarborough shoal – has set aside its resentment over Japan’s wartime occupation and accepted increased aid and naval assistance, including ten patrol vessels, worth $11 million each, to help with maritime surveillance. Filipino Foreign Minister Albert del Rosario has even declared publicly that the country would welcome a more muscular Japanese defense policy to offset China’s military buildup.

One reason for this turnaround is that many in the Philippines have felt somewhat abandoned by the US in their confrontation with China. With China increasingly asserting claims to territories in the South and East China Seas, other Asian countries may also find the burden of history to be too great an impediment to their future prospects.

Japan could go a long way toward helping its neighbors overcome the poisoned past that it shares with so many of them as a result of its old imperial ambitions. Just as US President Richard Nixon’s unyielding anti-communism uniquely suited him to establish diplomatic relations with China, Abe, an affirmed nationalist, may be the Japanese politician best able to blend contrition for the past with forthrightness about the present.

The good news is that Abe has shown signs of this kind of courage. At a 2006 summit with Chinese leaders during his first stint as Japan’s prime minister, he agreed to establish a joint commission, involving historians from Japan, China, and elsewhere, to study twentieth-century history. The idea was that the commission could make unbiased recommendations about contentious issues like the contents of history textbooks and even the Yasukuni shrine, a nationalist pilgrimage site where the remains of Japanese war criminals, among others, are interred.

If Abe revived this initiative today, he could help to dampen the regional antagonism he faces in trying to make Japan a “normal” country, with a military capable of participating in collective regional defense. Such an initiative may not work with China, where the government still uses the war with Japan to rouse nationalist sentiment. But countries like South Korea that are feeling the pressure of China’s rise – as demonstrated by the current furor over China’s unilateral expansion of its air defense zone – may well reciprocate such an effort. That alone should be reason enough for Abe to act.

Copyright: Project Syndicate, 2013.
Something to ponder but has Americanism as an underlying current from "My Friend Strobe" Jaswant Singh.
And a good example for "Physician heal thyself!"
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Agnimitra »

X-posting from Understanding the US thread - there is a China connection with the American elites that goes way back, as a factory floor:

A very good read:

The Two Faces of American Empire: Melville Knew Them, We Still Live With Them
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Agnimitra, Have you heard of Mary Knoll missionaries in China?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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^^ ramana ji, no but I just googled it. Why?
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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They were the mentors of the modern PRC.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by rgsrini »

ramana wrote:Could have X-Posted in many threads but this one has the context......
One thing that Jassu bhai does not touch upon is the case of missing anger against the colonials in India. The attoricities imparted by the British is a lot worse than what China, South Korea and Philippinos endured under Japan. But Indian population is blissfully unaware of its own history and has absolutely no memory of the worst colonial conquest and rule in the world. Our people still think that without UK educated the illiterate masses, gave us democracy and also a railway line.

One of the first betrayal of Indians, perpetrated by the Indian political class in the post independent era.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Well Indian nation state did not need hatred for the other to consolidate itself. Most don't even hate the Pakis even after all the perfidy. So what to say of UK!

All those nations need the other to consolidate.

Some East Asian had said that the idea of Westphalian state while nice for state formation has led to nothing but bloodshed in Europe and the world since it came about in 1648.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Another kink in how US hoodwinks at MTCR when PRC is involved.

http://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-cia-h ... eal-227283
Saudi Arabia has long been a backroom player in the Middle East's nuclear game of thrones, apparently content to bankroll the ambitions of Pakistan and Iraq (under Saddam Hussein) to counter the rise of its mortal enemy, Iran.

But as the West and Iran have moved closer to a nuclear accommodation, signs are emerging that the monarchy is ready to give the world a peek at a new missile strike force of its own - which has been upgraded with Washington's careful connivance.

According to a well-placed intelligence source, Saudi Arabia bought ballistic missiles from China in 2007 in a hitherto unreported deal that won Washington's quiet approval on the condition that CIA technical experts could verify they were not designed to carry nuclear warheads.

The solid-fueled, medium-range DF-21 East Wind missiles are an improvement over the DF-3s the Saudis clandestinely acquired from China in 1988, experts say, although they differ on how much of an upgrade they were.

The newer missiles, known as CSS-5s in NATO parlance, have a shorter range but greater accuracy, making them more useful against "high-value targets in Tehran, like presidential palaces or supreme-leader palaces," Jeffrey Lewis, director of the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies, tells Newsweek. They can also be fired much more quickly.

The poor accuracy of the old DF-3s rendered them impotent during the first Gulf War as a counterstrike to Saddam Hussein's Scuds, according to Desert Warrior, a 1996 memoir by Saudi Prince Khaled bin Sultan, then-commander of the Riyadh's Air Defense Forces. King Fahd declined to fling them at Iraq because the likely result would have been mass civilian casualties, and "the coalition's air campaign being waged against Iraq was sufficient retaliation," Khaled wrote.

When that war ended, the Saudis went looking for something better. In China, they likely found it. But unlike in 1988, when they royally annoyed Washington with their secret acquisition of DF-3s, this time they decided to play nice. And the CIA was their assigned playmate.

CIA and Saudi air force officers hammered out the ways and means for acquiring the new Chinese missiles during a series of secretive meetings at the spy agency's Langley, Va., headquarters and over dinners at restaurants in northern Virginia during the spring and summer of 2007, a well-informed source tells Newsweek. The arrangements were so sensitive that then-deputy CIA director Stephen Kappes ordered the CIA's logistical costs, estimated at $600,000 to $700,000 buried under a vague "ops support" heading in internal budget documents - prompting loud complaints from the head of the agency's support staff.

Aside from technical personnel, among the few CIA officials let in on the deal were the agency's then-number three, Associate Deputy Director Michael Morrell, a longtime Asia hand; John Kringen, then-head of the agency's intelligence directorate; and the CIA's Riyadh station chief, who Newsweek is not identifying because he remains undercover. Two analysts subsequently traveled to Saudi Arabia, inspected the crates and returned satisfied that the missiles were not designed to carry nukes, says the source, who asked for anonymity in exchange for discussing the still-secret deal.

The CIA declined to comment, as did current and former White House officials. The Chinese and Saudi embassies in Washington did not respond to requests for comment.

....
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Prem »

ramana wrote:W
All those nations need the other to consolidate.
Some East Asian had said that the idea of Westphalian state while nice for state formation has led to nothing but bloodshed in Europe and the world since it came about in 1648.
East Asian for East Asia sea
On the campaign trail, Terry McAuliffe (D) said that as governor, he’d make sure that new school textbooks note that the Sea of Japan is also known as the East Sea.McAuliffe the campaigner backed Sea of Japan alternative; McAuliffe the governor has a hard choice.
Democrats take control of Virginia Senate The party comes into power after a narrow special-election win, ousting Republicans from crucial committees..The promise was important to Northern Virginia’s large Korean American community, who see the Sea of Japan designation as a painful relic of Japanese occupation.But the pledge has turned into a huge headache and partisan showdown for the new governor. It leaves McAuliffe with an unhappy choice: angering one of the state’s largest trade partners (Japan) or alienating a key Northern Virginia voting bloc (Koreans).
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Rony »

American view of China-India -US relationship

Jeff Smith, Director of South Asia Programs and Kraemer Strategy Fellow, American Foreign Policy Council; Author, Cold Peace: China-India Rivalry in the 21st Century (Lexington Books, Dec. 2013)

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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by svinayak »

This is a good talk. This person is ex military and is an analyst from the military. He talks about 2005 and how PRC behaved against India after agreement of the 10 year Indo US military treaty.

Some of event which we now know are the nuclear explosion in the TIbet area opposite Arunachal Pradesh other threatening position against India
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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From BD dhaga
Kati wrote:Good analysis why chacha was supporting BNP+Jamaat, and China signalled a departure from the past:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140126/j ... uV5wdLnZH1
Wajed was aware of the limitation in which she was taking over as prime minister for a third time as she promised a dialogue with the opposition and fresh polls as soon as a consensus was reached. The United States of America rubbished the elections as “less than credible” and its envoy in Dhaka, Dan Mozena, called for fresh dialogue and mid-term polls to “let the Bangladesh people express their will freely”. The European Union and the Commonwealth also dubbed the polls one-sided and called for fresh elections. Only India expectedly backed Wajed, saying that the polls were a “constitutional necessity”.

But within a week, the situation has changed for her. Russia has come out in support of Wajed’s government, saying it looked forward to a “constructive partnership and cooperation” with the new government. More interestingly, the Russian statement blamed the opposition for the violence and the boycott while it explained the one-sided nature of the elections. This brought back memories of the 1971 liberation war for many Awami League veterans, of the troubled months when India and the erstwhile Soviet Union firmly upheld the cause of Bangladesh’s independence against a brutal Pakistani military regime backed by the US and China. After Vladimir Putin’s firm intervention in Syria, this move by Russia to back Wajed was also seen as yet another Kremlin assertion in a major Asian issue. But what came after that was all the more surprising.

China, which backed Pakistan in 1971 but soon established good relations with Bangladesh, has maintained equidistance when it comes to the two rival, battling coalitions which have run the country since it returned to democracy from military rule in the early 1990s. Before the January 5 polls, the usually quiet Chinese envoy in Dhaka, Li Jun, had called for a dialogue between the Awami League and the BNP, so that “wisdom prevailed over violence”. But as Wajed assumed office and formed her cabinet, she received a message from the Chinese prime minister, Li Keqiang, saying that China was keen to “join hands” with her government to “advance the Sino-Bangla comprehensive and cooperative partnership to a new height”. Li Jun handed over the letter to the Bangladesh foreign secretary, Shahidul Haque, to deliver the message even more clearly that Beijing meant business when it came out in support. Li’s letter had no mention of the elections, let alone referring to its credibility or one-sided nature. The Chinese premier was clearly sending a message to the West, specially the US, that the business of democracy and governance be better left to the government in Dhaka. In December, the Chinese had told Indian and Bangladesh officials at a BCIM meeting in Kunming that Beijing was keen to work with both Delhi and Dhaka to develop an economic corridor connecting Calcutta and Kunming that would “open a new chapter in our relationship and economic development”. Now by breaking away from its strict equidistance policy and supporting the Hasina Wajed government, China is seeking to warm up to India as well and drive home the message that it would be only too happy to work with India in the region. That this comes at a time when India-US relations are at a low following l’affaire Devyani is significant. Chinese officials have previously dropped broad hints to Indian diplomats that the deep sea port they plan to build at Sonadia off the Cox’s Bazar coast would be useful to India in accessing its Northeast. Beijing is keen to draw India out of the US ambit and what better time than now? The expression of support for Wajed, who is seen as close to India is, for China, like killing two birds with an arrow.

In private, Chinese diplomats have wondered why the US, especially its envoy, Mozena, had so strongly backed the BNP in the run-up to the elections and appeared to be doing that now. They suspect Washington is cultivating Khaleda Zia to secure a base in the Bay of Bengal after India rejected US efforts to seek a base in southern India. Beijing is sensitive to US efforts to secure a base that would sit close to the sea route connecting the Middle East with Myanmar’s Rakhine state, where China has built the port of Kyaukpyu and a huge oil and gas pipeline connecting Kyaukpyu to Yunnan. This is crucial for China if it wants to avoid the Malacca Straits, which Beijing sees as a choke-point and wants to avoid in order to save hugely on transport costs. The Chinese leadership, aware of the animosity between Wajed and the US, is sure Washington would not stand a chance if it sought bases around Bangladesh with Wajed in power. That would please India as well, because Delhi is averse to US bases in its neighbourhood like the one Australia has provided for US marines in Darwin.

A day after the statement of Chinese support for Wajed’s government, the US state department appeared mellowed. “We are prepared to work with the Hasina government,” said its deputy spokesperson, Marie Harf, in a statement, though she was quick to add that the US considered the January 5 polls as not credible and reflective of the popular will. But Harf did not insist, as Mozena had done last week, on “immediate elections”.....
Good for China to come out in support of Hasina at this juncture. The Devyani Strip search issue too cannot be missed in the background.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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^^
Similar concerted action in Afghanistan in support of Karzai et al to deny Massa their permanent Military base ambitions (for retaining a continuing threat for the regions nation states).... will do a lot of good to the security of the region.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Lilo »

X-Post
arun wrote:US refuses to talk China with India. Indrani Bagchi in TOI:
US refuses to talk China with India Indrani Bagchi,TNN | Feb 17, 2014, 01.55 AM IST


Days before US secretary of state John Kerry touched down in Beijing for his renewed outreach to China, US officials traveled to China to hold high level discussions on South Asia. There was nothing remarkable in this except for the fact that the US has refused to hold the East Asia dialogue with India for the past year. Through the East Asia dialogue, the US and India discussed issues relating to China and beyond, while India and South Asia are the subjects of discussion with China in the South Asia dialogue. From mid-2013, sources said the US has been stalling all attempts to hold the East Asia dialogue. Indian officials have even offered to meet in a third country but the new assistant secretary of state Daniel Russell, who took over from Kurt Campbell, met them with stony silence.

Many in the Indian system describe this as "strategic inattention" by the Obama administration. :(( :mrgreen:

It is most strongly manifested in the lack of engagement about Asia. A dialogue on Central Asia has fallen by the wayside as has a dialogue on Africa. A trilateral between India, US and Afghanistan last met around four months ago while a newly-constituted dialogue between the two countries on West Asia has met once. The US and India still have a trilateral discussion going with Japan. That too would have sunk were it not for the efforts of Japan and India to keep it afloat.


From here:

Times Of India
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

Lilo, Look at slides 8 thru 10 in this slideshare presentation done long ago.

http://www.slideshare.net/ramana_56/ind ... 2-27554458
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Agnimitra »

X-post from Shivabhoomi thread:

NDTV Op-ed: Narenda Modi and China, a complex equation
Reality is somewhat more complex. Both Modi and China look upon each other as long-term political challenges but short to medium term economic opportunities. The Chinese have invested in Gujarat and have invested in Modi. In 2011, Modi had a very good visit to China, with his hosts sending adequate symbolic messages in the form of security protocols that were just short of prime ministerial. Modi also met four members of the Communist Party politburo. Most senior political visitors from India meet one or two.

Chinese manufacturers have found a home in Gujarat. For instance, there is a Chinese textile manufacturing plant being built there. Among other things, it will make use of Gujarati cotton and is presented by Modi as evidence of his "farm to fibre to fabric to fashion to foreign (markets)" continuum. The Chinese have been impressed by the speed of decision making and relative de-bureaucratisation of Gujarat. They are hoping Modi will do something similar as prime minister.

The Chinese are emerging as the infrastructure providers of Asia. In terms of sheer cost savings, there is little alternative to Chinese technologies and companies. China is hoping Modi will de-clutter the telecom and power sectors in India, where it has been thwarted by the UPA government's general policy listlessness as well as the sometimes overdone scaremongering by the Indian security establishment. On his part, if Modi is to kick-start the Indian infrastructure and manufacturing story, he will inevitably find a role for Chinese business.

Where would the problems lie? Should Modi win power and settle into a robust economic programme, the Chinese will be in a dilemma: In being a participant in the growing Indian economy, are we helping a future rival? If this dilemma can keep competing Chinese stakeholders arguing and act as a brake against adventurism, nobody in India would be complaining.

However, there will be problems. More than the fastness of the Himalayas, a potential Modi-led government and Beijing would end up competing for influence in the waters to India's east: in the ASEAN region, the Indian Ocean and the Indo-Pacific. Singapore and Japan have old ties with Modi. Former Singapore Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong is a senior figure with whom Modi has a long-time association. For Prime Minster Shinzo Abe of Japan, Gujarat, as a key location in the Delhi Mumbai Industrial Corridor, is virtually a strategic partner.

Indeed, a section of opinion in Washington, DC, already sees Modi as an Abe-type figure - independent-minded and with an Asian time-table that may not always match the cautious, safety-first doctrine of the Obama administration.

A Modi who is in tune with Singapore and an Abe-led Japan, and who may strengthen maritime and strategic ties with say Vietnam or Indonesia, would leave China thinking. It is worth noting that many elements of this approach are shared by Manmohan Singh as an individual, though not perhaps by the Congress party as an institution. Where Modi would differ - should he get the mandate - is that he will be his own man.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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What a Bs article. How can one compare an individual and country?

The writer has undergone lobotomy.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Agnimitra »

:lol:

But interesting that he compared Modi with Abe.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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Yesterday Kerry slammed China for Human Rights record today its Chinas turn to do the same

China Strikes Back At US "Human Rights Violations": Slams PRISM Spying, Droning, Gun Violence, Homelessness And Unemployment
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

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China or America? Indians pick U.S.

By Bruce Stokes, Special to CNN

Editor’s note: Bruce Stokes is the director of global economic attitudes at the Pew Research Center. The views expressed are the writer’s own.

During the Cold War, the Indian government attempted to position itself between Moscow and Washington by claiming leadership of the Non-Aligned Movement. As Indians head to the polls over the next six weeks, their country again finds itself in a world with two preeminent powers: this time, China and the United States.

And the Indian public is fairly clear where its sympathies lie: with America. Of course, how such attitudes will influence the views of the next Indian government remains to be seen. But, for now at least, there appears to be no evidence of broad anti-Americanism on the sub-continent.

This might come as a surprise to some. After all, the favorable views of the United States came despite the fact that the Pew Research Center survey measuring sentiment was conducted in India in the immediate aftermath of the controversial December 2013 arrest and strip-search of India’s female deputy consul general in New York on charges of visa fraud. Yet by more than three-to-one (56 percent to 15 percent), Indians express a favorable rather than unfavorable view of the United States.

At the same time, Indians were somewhat skeptical about their massive neighbor China, a country that more than half of Indians view as a major threat to the country. Roughly a third of the public has a favorable view of Beijing, with only 13 percent holding a very favorable opinion. In contrast, about four-in-ten have an unfavorable opinion of the People’s Republic, including 22 percent who said they held a very unfavorable opinion.

Indians of all backgrounds have a more favorable view of the United States than of China, with more than half of both men and women saying they saw America in a positive light compared with around a third who see China that way. In addition, there was no generation gap with regard to views on the U.S. and on China – all age groups favored America. Almost three quarters of Indians with some college education or more have a positive view of Uncle Sam, compared with about four-in-ten with at least some college who see China in that light. Similarly, nearly two-thirds of high-income Indians favor the United States compared with about one-third who had a positive opinion of China.

Meanwhile, Indians are more than twice as likely to see America as a partner (36 percent) than as an enemy (16 percent), while more than a third (37 percent) of the Indian public considers China to be an enemy.

So what is behind the skepticism toward China? The distrust may have its roots in past military confrontations. Almost two-thirds of the Indian public view China’s growing military power as a bad thing for India, while just 19 percent said Beijing’s increasing military might is good for India.

In addition, India has long had border disputes with China. A war was fought along their mutual frontier in 1962. And, in recent years, there have been confrontations along the Chinese border with Jammu and Kashmir as well as in Arunachal Pradesh, an Indian state that China claims as part of Tibet. So it comes as little surprise that seven-in-ten Indians say territorial disputes between India and China are a problem for the country, including 45 percent who say they are a very big problem.

Overall, by nearly four-to-one, Indians surveyed said they see the United States today as the world’s leading economic power rather than China. However, looking to the future, a third of Indians said China has already or will eventually replace the United States as the world’s leading superpower. Yet Indians are less likely than publics in many countries to see China’s rising hegemony as inevitable, according to a separate Pew Research Center survey in spring 2013.

Holding the opinions they do about China and the United States, it may come as no surprise that 42 percent of Indians say it is more important to have strong ties with Washington than with Beijing – only 9 percent hold the view that it would be better to have a closer relationship with China.

That said, foreign affairs are unlikely to be on the minds of most Indian voters when they go to the polls. The economy, perceptions of political dysfunction and corruption, and the desire for a change in leadership are their primary concerns, according to the Pew Research survey. But whoever becomes prime minister will govern a people who are far more disposed toward a positive relationship with Washington than toward Beijing.

Http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com ... -pick-u-s/
The onlee use of highlighting a cooked survey here is to get a glimpse of what the cook wants to feed us.
So what is the need for Massa to project Indians as Massaphilic while painting us to be Sinophobic at this juncture ?
Bet that as usual this survey will be propagated by TOIlet (which itself is as Massaphilic and Sinophobic as a paid media outlet can be) along with its associates.

And PRC peeps after their next calculated excursion across the border will again complain that Indian media (excepting the disreputable Al-Chindu ofcourse) is Sinophobic.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by ramana »

Lilo, PVNR said he would choose China as the more important thing is to end Western Colonialism from 1492.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by KrishnaK »

we've always had brilliant people at the helm, the kind that cried at the downfall of SU and yet the mango abdul disagrees. having no idealogical blinkers they don't see any western colonialism at play.
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Re: US and PRC relationship & India

Post by Cosmo_R »

Lilo wrote:
The onlee use of highlighting a cooked survey here is to get a glimpse of what the cook wants to feed us.
So what is the need for Massa to project Indians as Massaphilic while painting us to be Sinophobic at this juncture ?
Bet that as usual this survey will be propagated by TOIlet (which itself is as Massaphilic and Sinophobic as a paid media outlet can be) along with its associates.

And PRC peeps after their next calculated excursion across the border will again complain that Indian media (excepting the disreputable Al-Chindu ofcourse) is Sinophobic.
Not aimed at you Lilo just explaining

Cooked or not, when you ask the average Indian where he wants his kids to go to school US or China and ask his kids where they might want to live, the answer is not China.

The US affords Indians (educated ones of course) an open road to success and self actualization. I ma not going to recite the usual success stories but if you look around you in the US, there is an Indian success story at ordinary levels. I don't think that is the case in China. The 92% Han don't like 'them'. I can't think of one Indian in a global Chinese concern. Heck, in Africa, all the Chinese 'investments' in mines and infrastructure have created few local jobs. The PRC brings in its own, they do 'take-in' Chinese :), live in camps and depart once the job is done leaving no one locally better trained.

To see any silver lining in the PRC is Nehruvianism. In reality, there is no freaking choice. But here's the good part: the America of tomorrow is going to be vastly different than it is today just as it is vastly different today than it was in 1967 when I fell off the boat.

In 1967, there was a TV show called I Spy. IT was the first time a black actor was in a co-lead role (Bill Cosby). You've no idea how revolutionary that was and the furor and debate that ensued.

Yet, just a mere 41 years later, the US had elected a black President. I don't see Oirope, Latin America doing that.

The Han see Indians as a food source . The Han eat everything.

You go now yes? :)

Thanks for bearing with me Lilo.
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