Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 04 Jul 2012 14:34

Brihaspati ji, thanks for exposing the fanaticism of Linguistic Structuralism and ilk, in dating the books of RV. You have helped complete the picture for me.

The Linguistic Structuralism you talk about, is it the same as was born out of the Ferdinand de Saussure's 'Course in General Linguistics', that was published posthumously in 1916. Rajiv Malhotra claims that Saussure's work was based on his study of Panini and was properly Secularised by his students before being presented as an improved elastic wala kachha version compared to Saussure's original nade wala kachha.

Also Was Edward Vernon Arnold after Saussure in his work or was Saussure working on received wisdom?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 Jul 2012 14:38

How unfair the world is...!

The thieves come and try to steal and later own our heritage...

The victims still seek thieves' recognition and approval for their own stolen things...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 14:46

Lalmohan wrote:you can't take "ownership" of these things - they are ideas. you can however create an alternative narrative

Lalmohan ji,

ownership of intangibles like culture is based on a different premise. It means

a) You already have a dominant narrative as well as a well-respected tradition of how to deal with any cultural subject, to which the vast majority adheres to intuitively.

b) You have your people who similarly share the sensitivities regarding that cultural field and are incensed when not due respect is shown to it. You don't have people from your own ranks who support the transgressor - morally or logistically.

c) You have media in your control which follows certain code of ethics on how to treat cultural property, and which can be deployed to go after the transgressors.

d) You have developed a certain narrative in academic circles as well as society on how to rhetorically go at the transgressors, both at boycotting the transgressors as well as undertaking the propaganda assault on the transgressor citing political incorrectness, colonial attitude, racism, insensitivity to cultural differences and sentiments of others, social immaturity, disturber of communal peace, etc.

e) You can bring the weight on to the society - media, academic circles, venture capitalists and banks, etc. to boycott the transgressors.

f) Of course, one entertains a certain form of rebellion from within one's own ranks - that is tantric, or nastik and that is okay! But that is sort of managed and tolerated rebellion to ease the pressure of conservativeness.

That is ownership.

Instead one has Mutus who applaud the interest shown by foreign transgressors and denigrate those among their own ranks who protest!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Jul 2012 15:16

i think we are in broad agreement

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 15:21

A list of sites for archaeology information pertaining to Indian Subcontinent

Further some state depts

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 04 Jul 2012 15:23

RajeshA ji, it was really great of you to have protested the ******** of our culture by Nina Paley. These detractors should not go unprotected. Their behavior is mainly to gain legitimacy. They are trying to create history by behaving in that manner that they can later on cite to justify their claim to legitimacy. Circular referencing at work.

Also in addition to and far surpassing the above felt need is the need for further and continuing legitimization of our own narrative which is not dependent upon acceptance by the likes of Nina Paley. What we need is to take our ideas to our people. That is where Televised Ramayana and Mahabharat come in. We need more such ideas. It is no wonder that our heroes are capable of being presented in contemporary forms in every age. We need to exploit this further.

Further, is there any way for the Indians to help the Uropains in developing a mythology for the Uropains. A proper mythology, not the one they pass off as Scientific History.

Even more importantly do the Uropains and their kin even consider it important to have a rational mythology? Where horses are allowed to fly but men are bound to the ground by proper dharmic duties. Or is it that the world is doomed to know that horses don’t fly and then double doomed to find themselves in the other guys country to humanize him or to save his soul?

Can Hollywood supplant or even complement their mythology and itihaas?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 04 Jul 2012 15:37

ravi_g wrote:Further, is there any way for the Indians to help the Uropains in developing a mythology for the Uropains. A proper mythology, not the one they pass off as Scientific History.

Why self-made 'notable people' like Witzel has conducted 'conferences on comparative mythology from Indian subcontinent (Kyoto, Beijing, Edinburgh, Ravenstein (Netherlands), Tokyo, Harvard)' where not too notably at all Indians are absent except mythology! Read Witzelish propaganda on History spanning back thousands of years only here ('research'), here ('Conference') and here ('Curriculum Vitae ').

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 15:48

ravi_g wrote:Further, is there any way for the Indians to help the Uropains in developing a mythology for the Uropains. A proper mythology, not the one they pass off as Scientific History.

ravi_g ji,

that is something I also tried to explore a bit in the "Reverse Inculturation" Thread. See [1] [2]

There is a lot of information being generated here on old mythological links between India and the other Indo-Europeans. Something I was not really aware of earlier, considering that Christianity did some daisy-cutter bombing on early "paganism" of European peoples. Much of their earlier beliefs did have their origins in early and pre-Rigvedic deities and many of their myths have their origin in our own legends.

I think once OIT is established, many more doors would be opened. We can discuss such matters in the "Reverse Inculturation" Thread.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 04 Jul 2012 15:50

vishvak ji, that is possible because, they don't see anything Indian about it, they think it's entirely an European thing which Indian nationalists are trying to steal. They in fact are more happy if no Indian attends, they consider linguistics, Rg Veda are their treasure to protect imagine that. Now I think I understand what 'violated' means.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 15:52

vishvak wrote:Read Witzelish propaganda on History spanning back thousands of years only

From Wikipedia

Witzel was also accused of being biased against Hinduism, an allegation he denies. Rejecting criticism that he was a 'Hindu hater', Witzel said, "I hate people who misrepresent history."

Boy, the AIT-Nazi just confessed he is a self-hater!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Jul 2012 16:28

In the 2001 Census of India,
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Da ... ement1.htm

14,099 people reported their mother tongue as Sanskrit + 36 others listed it as a second language.

Of these half (7048) were in Uttar Pradesh. Andhra Pradesh had 1340, Rajasthan had 989, Karnataka had 830.
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Da ... /parta.htm

Not sure why the numbers are so wildly different but
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Da ... ement5.htm

Census
1971: 2212 people had mother tongue Sanskrit
1981: 6106
1991: 49736
2001: 14135

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 16:38

Books often referred to

AIT-Nazi "scholarship"

Publication: July 29, 1982
Authors: Bridget Allchin, Frank Raymond Allchin
The Rise of Civilization in India and Pakistan

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 04 Jul 2012 17:21

Arun Gupta ji, I think a little bit of push can increase that number drastically. Every Kendriya Vidyalay school teaches Sanskrit from class 6 till 12th. If importance of Sanskrit is stressed and if greatness of Sanskrit is taught, if teaching Sanskrit and Sanskrit teachers are given due respect, you are going to have that number grow even more. I think lack of appreciation is what makes people who actually learn not take it seriously that it is not passed on. And now there is Sanskrita Bharati, in a decade that number could easily double.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 17:47

What could be useful is some competition like "Spelling-Bee" in India for Sanskrit!

But it should not be about spelling. It should be about some other criterion like

If a verse from one the hymns from one of our scriptures is given to a candidate, then
1. to complete the verse or
2. say the next verse or
3. say from which scripture it originates, or
4. say what it means.
If some translation of a Sanskrit verse is given, then to say what the original is.
If some concept is given, then to find out which hymn would best capture the essence of the concept.

Points can be given for pronunciation as well.

We have enough experience in conducting many competition shows - especially in music. If the show is presented in a very modern way, similarly to those music competitions and the stakes, the awards are kept high, the show is bound to gain in popularity. Let's say the prize money is a crore!

Sanskrit can become hip again among the youth very fast!

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 Jul 2012 17:50

Another great name is stolen digested and not given due recognition is of satyendranath bose and his boson. all the news report regarding LHC mentions higgs but no satyenbabu.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/for-i ... ggs-239540

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 Jul 2012 17:52

RajeshA wrote:What could be useful is some competition like "Spelling-Bee" in India for Sanskrit!

But it should not be about spelling. It should be about some other criterion like

If a verse from one the hymns from one of our scriptures is given to a candidate, then

to complete the verse or

say the next verse or

say from which scripture it originates, or

say what it means.

If some translation of a Sanskrit verse is given, then to say what the original is.

If some concept is given, then to find out which hymn would best capture the essence of the concept.
Points can be given for pronunciation as well.

We have enough experience in conducting many competition shows - especially in music. If the show is presented in a very modern way, similarly to those music competitions and the stakes, the awards are kept high, the show is bound to gain in popularity. Let's say the prize money is a crore!

Sanskrit can become hip again among the youth very fast!

Chinmay mission and swadhyay parivar's bal sanskar kendras already do that on regular basis sans big prize.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Jul 2012 17:52

This risks going off-topic, but in another sense, is entirely on topic.
http://xyz4000.wordpress.com/2012/07/04 ... re-of-god/

The questions posed on this thread are of the form:
1. What did Westerners make of our traditions?
2. What would we make of our traditions? implicit here is that we would be still using Western cognition. This is "beating the Westerners at their own game". This is probably a necessary step, one of self-defense, and to recover our self-confidence. However, a warning is in order.

The categories and concepts in the humanities are not honed and refined against an objective nature; they are inescapably biased by the culture in which the research is conducted. As an easy example, our traditions simply do not contain the equivalent of a Herodotus, yet we moderns are deeply concerned about history. We imagine history to be a discipline whose goals are independent of culture, just like physics, and so unknowingly we import all the hidden assumptions behind the discipline.

This is where the video I posted above comes into the picture. It is a reminder that we all suffer from a colonial consciousness. I'll point you to an essay, and encourage you to explore the whole set of essays there.
http://xyz4000.wordpress.com/2012/04/01 ... angadhara/

3. The ultimate question we have to start answering to recover our civilizational distinctness (instead of becoming a SDRE copy of the West) is how do we understand our traditions from the point of view of our traditions? i.e., from "beating the Westerners at their own game" to "creating and playing our own game".

To anyone who says, there is but one game, history as a discipline is not Western or Eastern, Japanese, Indian or German, I disagree. What is it about the past do our traditions value? Our own game, our own discipline, iHistory, would center around those values.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2012 18:06

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales
is considered father of physics. anything older from indics would nail the ait-nazis.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 18:36

A_Gupta ji,

I am not convinced that we do not cherish historicity. Otherwise we wouldn't be in possession of dynastic genealogies which go back deep into the past, perhaps older than most civilizations.

Also the astronomical dating information embedded in our scriptures is perhaps testimony to how exact we were willing to record certain events.

The point is that really only a fraction of our ancient knowledge base has really managed to reach 21st century. It is difficult to imagine how much must have been destroyed in the various natural calamities, how much got destroyed at the hands of barbarians and how much gets destroyed everyday in our archives because of our complacency. There would have been much more chronological information hidden in all that.

If our scriptures having astronomical dating in them, why should all the other literature be devoid of it. We obviously have certain gaps.

So I am not really convinced, we did not believe in historicity or recording for posterity. It could have been that our method of recording, Śrauta, did not allow initially too much to be recorded in order to keep redundancy for that what one considered absolutely important.

Hence more importance was given to preservation of the existing than to recording new history.

Perhaps Śrauta had established itself so strongly among the Brahmins, that due to inertia in tradition they may have considered a new technology for recording - script, unwelcome. For other societies, without the highly developed oral tradition of India, script was more welcome and hence it allowed to record history in a much more detailed fashion, but then their records may not be as old as those in India. Slowly but surely script established itself, but the older tradition was given precedence.

Even that what has reached us, the historicity is often coded or for obvious reasons not accessible due to change in worldview, mentality. Astronomical data which is there in our scriptures was put there for a reason. But everything was fashioned to provide maximum facilitation to transmission of the oral text, and thus the information had to be appropriately coded using anthropomorphic and literary means.

But even script has had a few millennia to establish itself and surely much literature has been written, but then again much has been destroyed or forgotten.

The point is that this impression we have that we don't much care for historicity may not be really borne out from our past but may have come about due to what literature we give priority and the paucity of other written literature on the politics of old India in the public sphere, but that too doesn't mean it wasn't or isn't there forgotten in various archives.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Jul 2012 18:52

A_Gupta wrote:In the 2001 Census of India,
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Da ... ement1.htm

14,099 people reported their mother tongue as Sanskrit + 36 others listed it as a second language.

Of these half (7048) were in Uttar Pradesh. Andhra Pradesh had 1340, Rajasthan had 989, Karnataka had 830.
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Da ... /parta.htm

Not sure why the numbers are so wildly different but
http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Da ... ement5.htm

Census
1971: 2212 people had mother tongue Sanskrit
1981: 6106
1991: 49736
2001: 14135

Arun there is a Sanskrit revival movement in India, and certainly in Karnataka. The fact that Sanskrit is an optional language subject taken by many at pre-Univ level adds to the fact that it will not be allowed to simply die out. I had earlier linked a source where some great CDs can be bought for spoken sanskrit, but a cultural even in Bangalore allowed me to equip myself with some great dictionaries.

Will cross post a post I had made in the hijab forum

shiv wrote:Did someone want to learn Sanskrit. This site has a 20 CD 40 lesson thing that is very beginner friendly. Some sample videos

CDs Available from: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan
http://www.sanskrit.nic.in
rsks@nda.vsnl.net.in

Short sample videos
http://youtu.be/p7El_wB32d0

http://youtu.be/GHZcjNYVTtI

Please cross post in other threads if you like them. They are unlisted and will not be found on a YouTube search.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 04 Jul 2012 20:04

shiv garu, thanks for the video lesson links.

Rajesh garu, already there are Sanskrit sloka recitation competitions similar to spell bee competitions, similarly at adult level we could also have poem writing competitions and debates (tarka) in sanskrit.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 20:29

If there ever was one effort at distortion of history than the prize for it, I believe, should go to Prof. Uthaya Naidu. It is unclear of what he is a professor, where he teaches or taught.

This I am putting up here as a link, so as to show what damage the little lie about the Aryans is doing in India, when it is hijacked by some people with excessive fantasy and an agenda such as the "Professor".

By "Professor" Uthaya Naidu
The Bible of Aryan Invasions (1500 BC - 1000 AD) - Aryan Invasions & Genocide of Negroes, Semites & Mongols

Code: Select all

http://www.scribd.com/doc/57052418/Aryan-Invasion

The discovery of the Indus Valley Civilization in the 1920s brought to light asuppressed chapter of Indian history, namely the large-scale destruction andgenocide perpetrated over 1000 years by the Aryan invaders on indigenousNegroid Sudras, Mongoloids and Semites. However, this episode is blatantly denied by the Brahmin-controlled press of India, which propagates highly distorted versions of history, and even goes to the extent of denying that any genocide took place. Such distortion of history leads to the continuation of crimes against humanity; the massacre of Sudroid Tamils in Sri Lanka by Aryan Buddhists and the genocide of Dalits by the Brahmanist Republic of India after 1947 are merely consequences of the negationist mindset. In order to comprehend current Caucasoid-Negroid conflicts in South Asia, it is necessary to comprehend the full history of the engagement. In order to solve the current Arya-Sudra problem in India a clear unbiased understanding of history is required. This book seeks to address some of these concerns, and hopes toprovide a factual account of atrocities perpetrated by the Aryan invaders.

This book demonstrates that the Aryan invasions were the most severe catastrophe to afflict the Indian subcontinent. In fact, several Holocausts occurred during this period :

• The Semitic Holocaust
- This refers to the annihilation of the Indic Semitic peoples comprising the Indo-Assyrians (`Asuras') and the Indo-Pheonicians (`Pnais').

• The Sudra Holocaust
- By far the most severe Holocaust was that inflicted upon the Sudra Negroids, who were exterminated from all of North India. Under the impact of the Aryan invasions, the Sudroid race broke up into the disparate units of Dravidians, Kolarians, Dalits and Adivasis. The Dravidian Brahui isolate surviving in Baluchistan is an extremely northern isolate of the ancient Sudric stock.

• The Naga Holocaust
- The Indo-Mongoloid populations of Eastern India were also massacered during the Later Aryan invasions in what is referredto as the Naga or Kirata holocaust.

The behaviour pattern of the invaders was not limited to slaughter during war-times, but embraced the large-scale persecution of indigenous populations.There were several aspects to the invasions, which were as follows :

• Mass slaughter of non-Aryans not only during war but also during peacetime.
• Establishment of the Vedic Apartheid (`caturvarna') System based onvarna (race, or skin colour).
• Vedic human sacrifice (`purushamedha') of large numbers of non-Aryans by Vedic Brahmins.
• Forced Labour extracted from non-Brahmins.
• Capture of large numbers of non-combatant men, women and children asbooty and their sale into slavery in Aryan households.
• Forcible conversion of people, initially to the Vedic religion, and later to the 6 orthodox schools of Brahmanism, mainly to Vaishnavism.
• Reduction of the Status of first non-Aryans and later non-brahmins to that of sub-humans through prevention of learning and destruction of non-Brahmin literature and culture.
• Destruction of temples belonging to pre-Brahmanic religions like Shaivism, Shaktism and Tantrism and their replacement with Vedist and Vaishnava mandirs.
• Impoverishment of the non-Aryans, and later of non-Brahmins,through religious fraud, appropriation of land, discriminatory taxes,and confiscation of womens' properties after the Sati ritual.

So there you have it!

I like to read Marvel comics sometimes. Sometimes it is interesting to read what happens in the Multiverse, with multiple universes where everything happens a bit differently. Here we have an entity - Prof. Uthaya Naidu, who has been taken (uthaya) from another universe and transferred to ours. "Professor" Uthaya Naidu's creativity is so fantastic, that one wonders if it is humanly possible to have such a rich imagination.

This is what happens, when we give any space to the AIT-Nazis. They force the issue of Aryan Invasions and Migrations to remain open regardless of how much evidence one throws in their faces. That is all the opening such world-class liars like "Professor" Uthaya Naidus need to run amok in India among people who have anyway been taught only some history whitewash in school, and thus can gulp down such lies easily.

With the people not armed with the truth about history, you find liars like "Professor" Uthaya Naidus find easy prey among the gullible people of India.

All the AIT-Nazis need to do is to keep the door ajar, the GoI complacent and the people gullible! "Professor" Uthaya Naidus will do the rest!

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 04 Jul 2012 21:13

venug wrote:shiv garu, thanks for the video lesson links.

Rajesh garu, already there are Sanskrit sloka recitation competitions similar to spell bee competitions, similarly at adult level we could also have poem writing competitions and debates (tarka) in sanskrit.

what rajesh garu suggesting is making sanskrit popular among youth is about incentives and scale. We need huge fund for this mass scale revival. The revival movement is there but visibility is very limited.

Here it would be proper to give credit to ramdev for trying hard to revive sanskrit. he is himself a sanskrit scholar. Sri sri's movement also doing its bit but popularity wise it has to go a very long way. Once people start discussing about revival of sanskrit in nukkads and galis, there will be no stopping. There can be a tv program in line with KBC.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Jul 2012 21:47

We have the case where the Pakistani Army sends in its non-state actors to commit massacre in India, and later on denies it has any role to play, except giving moral support to Kashmiri freedom fighters, etc.

Similarly we have the case where the Anglo-German AIT-Nazis just get involved in creating Aryan invasion theories, and their non-state actors, people like "Prof." Uthaya Naidu and others do the cultural massacre in India.

According to these non-state actors 'fighting' deep behind enemy lines in the heart of India, there were Semites (Indo-Assyrians, Indo-Phoenicians) in India long before the 'Aryans' invaded and committed a genocide on all these Semites. What he is trying to say is that Semites (read Muslims) have a far bigger claim on India, than the invading 'Aryan Brahmins' and kshatriyas, blah, blah! They invent history and pull it out of their behinds.

It doesn't really matter if it is truth or not, he just needs some venom to spread among the populace. Who can say what is true and what is not! He doesn't need to fight it out with historians and academicians. For that he has the AIT-Nazis.

He just needs some wild theories to give his followers some justification for all the massacres they will commit in revenge of some past 'Aryan' invasions on "Indo-Semites"!

Now here is a situation:

At some point, a nationalist government comes to power and decides to tell the children the truth - there were no Aryan invasions. They wish to change the curriculum. Prof. Uthaya Naidu and his followers would rebel and protest, claiming the Government wants to cover up past massacres and deny the holocausts. What is the government going to do? Explain to these agitated masses the fine points of history?!

And because there would be internal pressures in India not to change the narrative of Aryan invasions, the AIT-Nazis in Havard don't need to answer for their lies, and the Aryan Migration Theory can survive despite all the evidence piled up against it.

And these "Prof." Uthaya Naidus would continue to further radicalize the population, to ensure that it stays this way!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Jul 2012 22:21

rajeshji - why the CT kolaveri in everything? and not just you, this CT business is becoming endemic in BRF
how about a simple explanation such as - "simple minded man finds simple theory to justify his simple uneducated ill informed ignorant ranting"?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2012 23:08

http://www.sixsigmaquality.com/Zero_Infinity.pdf
Spirituality or Math?

PS#28. An established picture can be modified into another. If there is nothing to work with it can only be modified into nothing.
Tatr chitram bhavet ekam iti chitr-taram tatah.
Chitram shunyam idam sarvam vetsi chitr-tamam tatah.
http://www.hira-pub.org/nay/nsVol-VI-PS-Ak.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47149053/chandasutram
Binary system

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 04 Jul 2012 23:20

I still don't see how Professor Naidu decided that "Aryans" brought Vaishnava mandirs to India?!?! Vishnu is described as a dark skinned person. his every avatar is dark in color. how can the Aryans be accused of racism against "dark skinned shudras", and at the same time also be worshiping the dark skinned Vishnu?! this is some mind-boggling contradiction that any 10-year old with knowledge of Vishnu's description in the itihasas/puranas could point out.

how did such a logical flaw escape the attention of Esteemed Professor Naidu?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Jul 2012 23:26

RajeshA,

1. Long lists of kings may be more to prove/establish genealogy (my family tree is such & such), not for the purposes of history (A did X on date Q).

2. There appears to be little consistency even in the internal traditions of the date of the Buddha.

3. Alberuni, c 1000 AD, also notes the historical confusion of Hindus.

Unfortunately, the Hindus do not pay much attention to the historical order of things, they are very careless in relating the chronological succession of their kings, and when they are pressed for information and are at a loss, not knowing what to say, they invariably take to tale-telling. But for this, we should communicate to the reader the traditions which we have received from some people among them. I have been told that the pedigree of this royal family {the Hindu kings of Kabul}, written on silk, exists in the fortress Nagarkot, and I much desired to make myself acquainted with it, but the thing was impossible for various reasons.

4. Alberuni does note that Hindus calculate dates - the beginning of the kalpa, the manavantara, the yuga, and the data of the Mahabharata. Alberuni also quotes from the "Vishnu-Dharma":

Markandeya says, in answer to a question of Vajra, "I have already lived as long as 6 kalpas and 6 manvantaras of the seventh kalpa, 23 tretayugas of the seven manvantara. In the twenty-fourth tretayuga, Rama killed Ravana, and Lakshmana, the brother of Rama, killed Kumbhakarna, the brother of Ravana...

Twenty-three caturyugas are 99,360,000 years, and together with the time from beginning of a caturyuga till the end of the tretayuga, 102,384,000 years.....

All these computations rest on the measures adopted by Brahmagupta. He and Pulisa agree in this, that the number of kalpas which have elapsed of the life of Brahma before the present kalpa is 6068 (equal to 8 years, 5 months and 4 days of Brahma). But they differ from each other in converting this number in caturyugas. According to Pulisa, it is equal to 6,116,544; according to Brahmagupta, only to 6,068,000 caturyugas.

Then e.g., comparing the Harsha era and the Vikramaditya era:

{Harsha}'s era is used in Mathura and the country of Kanoj. Between Sri Harsh and Vikramaditya there is an interval of 400 years as I have been told by some of the inhabitants of that region. Howver, in the Kashmirian calendar I have read that Sri Harsha was 664 years later than Vikramaditya. In the face of this discrepancy I am in perfect uncertainty, which to the present moment has not been cleared up by any trustworthy information.

Alberuni also reports that the common people number the year upto a century, and when the century is completed, they start from the beginning again. As a result the account of any events older than a hundred years is confused.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Jul 2012 23:36

I am saying every data that focus on a date that only equated near and around 0AD/ 0BC - (or trying to relate dates to 0 CE - [vested interest groups] ) is not correct. We have to identify all authors who specify dates. In actuality many of these dates would be wrong or when the earliest date a script was found referencing the event or subject. That is definitely not meaning it did not exists earlier.

When the stories came like.. 2000 years ago, there live a king ... etc. now, when did this story started? since then it is 2000 years ago -- correct? so, what does it tell?

Some eons back.. and that is where, many dates are wrong. no one can prove a date, and at the same time all existing dates must be reviewed and removed till it is proven.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Jul 2012 00:21

2. There appears to be little consistency even in the internal traditions of the date of the Buddha.

Some time back I got an email @the question of Buddha's dates, I post here the email thread I had. I apologize if this becomes a lengthy post, but the Buddha's dates are important to know, this email thread actually dont debate on the dates but about the existence of more than one Buddha that we know off, unless we ascertain if the Buddha we know of as sakya muni is the same as jina or Gautama Buddha, we cant fix the dates of his birth and then do a relative dating analysis so here:

What do purANas say about buddha ?
Someone told in a thread @ advaita-l group that buddha incarnated at time of tripuradAha to deviate asuras from worship of shrI-shiva. If this is according to purANa, then buddha told there is not this popular buddha for sure.

So, a natural question arises :
Do purANas tell about same buddha who was born about 2500 years ago and whose followers are seen today ?

Agni purANa makes an attempt to associate Buddha - the tathAgata with Buddha - a supposed incarnation of nArAyaNa, still holding him in a favorable light but at the same time rejecting his teachings. According to this purANa, mahAviShNu incarnated as mAyAmoha, the son of King shuddhodana and deluded the reborn daityas who, under his influence, deserted vaidika dharma and adopted Buddhism. The same nArAyaNa is also considered to have assumed the form of arhata, misleading the remaining asuras into Arhata dharma. Both these dharmas are included in the list of pAShaNDa shAstras enumerated in the kUrma purANa: kApAla, vAma, bauddha, Arhata, kApila, pAncharAtra, DAmara, nAkula, pAshupata, soma, lA~Ngala and sAtvata.

Vrddha hArIta, in his dharma shAstra, treats a Buddhist monastery, a shaivite shrine and crematorium equally and prescribes a prAyashchitta if one enters any of them:

from :
http://www.kamakotimandali.com/misc/buddha-purana.html

and some more from the email thread :

Common knowledge does not indicate their being more than one Buddha, so, in all probability the bête noir of some of the Puranas would be the same and only Buddha that we know of.

The Puranas had an ambivalent approach towards him. The hardliners would reject him as a propagator of पाखण्ड, and the soft-liners would try to bring him within the fold of the ancient belief. The acceptance of Buddha within the fold of the Ancient religion can
be said to have been fairly complete by the 11th century. The following well-known verse appearing at 15/27 of the
सुभाषितरत्नभाण्डागार has been sourced to महानाटकम् of हनूमत्कवि (11th century).

यं शैवाः समुपासते शिव इति ब्रह्मेति वेदान्तिनः।
बौद्धा बुद्ध इति प्रमाणपटवः कर्तेति नैयायिकाः॥
अर्हन्नित्यथ जैनशासनरताः कर्मेति मीमांसकाः।
सोऽयं वो विदधातु वाञ्छितफलं त्रैलोक्यनाथो हरिः॥

That the Buddha is recognized as one of the ten incarnations by Adi Shankara has been brought out in this forum earlier too. That is, provided that you do not question the authorship of Vishnupadadikesantastotra attributed to him. The specific verse is as follows:
मत्स्यः कूर्मो वराहः नरहरिणपतिर्वामनो जामदग्न्यः
काकुत्स्थः कम्सघाती मनसिजविजयी यश्च कल्किर्भविष्यन् ।
विष्णोरंशावतारा भुवनहितकरा धर्मसंस्थापनार्थाः
पायासुर्मां त एते गुरुतरकरुणाभारखिन्नाशया ये ॥

In the above मनसिजविजयी refers to Buddha. Sri Sankara is placed around the 8th century. A point was raised whether Sankara would go to the extent of recognizing Buddha as an incarnation when he has criticized his philosophy vehemently. Great persons respected their opponents even and they are instances galore to substantiate this. Srivaishnavas call advaiti's प्रच्छन्नबौद्ध’s!

From the above questions to following were sought:
1.How could you say that मनसिजविजयी is for shAkya-muni ? Is there any proof that paurANika-buddha was not मनसिजविजयी ?

There was already confusion with the use of the word Jina. The lexicon Amara (5th Century AD cir.) refers with this term both Buddha sugata, tathaagata and also a separate Shakyamuni is introduced in a separate assertion.

Jina or Buddha 18

( १. १. २५) सर्वज्ञः सुगतः बुद्धो धर्मराजस्तथागतः
( १. १. २६) समन्तभद्रो भगवान्मारजिल्लोकजिज्जिनः
( १. १. २७) षडभिज्ञो दशबलोऽद्वयवादी विनायकः
( १. १. २८) मुनीन्द्रः श्रीघनः शास्ता मुनिः शाक्यमुनिस्तु यः

And Gautamabuddha :

Gautama Buddha 7

( १. १. २९) स शाक्यसिंहः सर्वार्थसिद्धः शौद्धोदनिश्च सः
( १. १. ३०) गौतमश्चार्कबन्धुश्च मायादेवीसुतश्च सः

And your question finds place in this context. If we take both of these, the identical person, why the confusion for Amarasimha, himself between Jina = Mahavira, and Buddha. And according to the method followed, शाक्यमुनि etc. goes with Gautama Buddha and the words before it goes with जिन who is called मारजित्.

And it is popular in बुद्धचरित of अश्वघोष and पद्यचूडामणि of some other poet, biography of Buddha accounts for in detail his confrontation with काम and his army and his victory over him. Hence your question deserves much more consideration than simply accepting दशावतार incarnation theory which is a later development accomplished around 10th century at the earliest.

Now the question is mixed up with the question why Mahavira was not at all known and even if known, how Amarasimha himself got the confusion between the two names? I do not have a ready solution. Not even a name महावीर popular by the time at least Amara compiled his lexicon?

In AmarakoSha and its commentaries, जिन has come to mean for a बुद्ध different from शाक्यमुनिः. Please see माहेश्वरी and commentary of क्षीरस्वामिन् . They have presented जिन different from शाक्यमुनि .

According to Madhvacharya there were definitely two Buddha-s and Gautama Buddha was definitely not avatara of Vishnu.
While he was totally against Gautama Buddha, because Veda-s were not pramANa for the latter, Madhvacharya had composed dvAdasha stotram where he mentions Buddha as one of the avataras, but this is not Gautama Buddha.

I remember having heard that according to Madhvacharya, there *was* a Buddha avatara of Vishnu but I cant recollect all the details.

And more info here :
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6623

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jul 2012 00:55

http://micheldanino.voiceofdharma.com/tamilculture.html
The Myth of Dravidian Culture

And yet, such statements do not go deep enough, as they still imply a North-South contrast and an unknown Dravidian substratum over which the layer of “Aryan” culture was deposited. This view is only milder than that of the proponents of a “separate” and “secular” Dravidian culture, who insist on a physical and cultural Aryan-Dravidian clash as a result of which the pure “Dravidian” culture got swamped. As we have seen, archaeology, literature and Tamil tradition all fail to come up with the slightest hint of such a conflict. Rather, as far as the eye can see into the past there is every sign of a deep cultural interaction between North and South, which blossomed not through any “imposition” but in a natural and peaceful manner, as everywhere else in the subcontinent and beyond.

..the outflow from the Tamil land was a major tributary to the great river of Indian culture.

Conclusion
It should now be crystal clear that anyone claiming a “separate,” “pre-Aryan” or “secular” Dravidian culture has no evidence to show for it, except his own ignorance of archaeology, numismatics and ancient Tamil literature. Not only was there never such a culture, there is in fact no meaning in the word “Dravidian” except either in the old geographical sense or in the modern linguistic sense ; racial and cultural meanings are as unscientific as they are irrational, although some scholars in India remain obstinately rooted in a colonial mindset.

The simple reality is that every region of India has developed according to its own genius, creating in its own bent, but while remaining faithful to the central Indian spirit. The Tamil land was certainly one of the most creative, and we must hope to see more of its generosity once warped notions about its ancient culture are out of the way.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Jul 2012 01:56

Lalmohan wrote:rajeshji - why the CT kolaveri in everything? and not just you, this CT business is becoming endemic in BRF
how about a simple explanation such as - "simple minded man finds simple theory to justify his simple uneducated ill informed ignorant ranting"?

Lalmohan ji,

a very apt question! Is it all a conspiracy theory? I'll try to give an honest answer as far as I can.

For that one has to look at the facts, i.e. see at least two movements unfavorable to one's interests, and then see if they produce synergy in their tactics and goals, in which case it is a soft CT, or whether they have common organizational nodes, in which case, it is a hard CT we're looking at. If both the movements are acting against one's interests in one's traditional sphere of influence without provocation, then it is clear both movements are not reactionary, but rather agenda-driven. Chances for cooperation between them in my estimation would then be even higher.

Now the facts
a) AIT people have been at it for around 2 centuries at it trying to misappropriate Indic property - Sanskrit, Indigenism, Mythological Corpus and to deny India the antiquity. Unprovoked.

b) There is a strong Dravidianist and now even a Dalitist movement underway. Also unprovoked. The Dravidianist is very much based on AIT and the Dalitist movement increasingly so.

c) Both AIT initially and Dravidianist movement were sponsored by the Christianist missionary zeal and colonial interests. For AIT in the meantime the Christian hand may have become invisible, but can one really deny it? Wouldn't it be in interest of USA to have a Christian Tamil Nadu + Christian Tamil Eelam invitingly in the middle of Indian Ocean? At the moment they don't have a Christian staging post there. The nearest is Philippines or Australia. Anyway that is my reading of the whole interest of USA in the area. So several interests come together - Christianists, US State Dept., so basically the old duo still remains.

Now whether one sees these patterns or not is different from analyst to analyst. Rajiv Malhotra in his book "Breaking India" too has a similar view. It also depends on how much data one looks at. I would stand by this CT, simply because I don't see any reasoning which borders on the incredulous. It is not like Jews carrying out 9/11 just to give somebody else a bad image.

Now you say, the explanation can well be "simple minded man finds simple theory to justify his simple uneducated ill informed ignorant ranting".

If one would read "Prof" Uthaya Naidu's book or even the initial passages, one sees actually how is building a case for some specific interests, how he is modeling a line of argumentation for certain interests. Simple minds don't go about bringing in Assyrians and Phoenicians in one's models of history. In fact there is nothing simple or ignorant about it. It is a brilliant piece of propaganda based on half-lies and popular and respected false theories. The claims are so audacious but convincingly expressed, that I really don't see anything uneducated about it. That is propaganda that will be effective, regardless of whether it is true.

Now coming again to your question about building conspiracy theories. Why?

Well of course I see a pattern there, so I stated it. But why would I do it? Where is the driver?

The motivation is there, because basically these people the AIT proponents play very dirty and the consequences of their linguistic and history games have been so damaging, that I don't see any reason to save my punches. If some attack sits on them, then it is a good attack vector. Why should I deal with them with kid-gloves?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Jul 2012 02:25

A_Gupta ji,

a) The long list of kings may be to prove some claim, but they may just as well be true. If some claimant made some claim of genealogical lineage and if some such information mattered, then there would have been others who would have been interested in casting doubts on such lists.

That these lists held their ground despite other claimants to the throne, would mean there was some general acceptance of these lists and were not too controversial.

b) You are right that there is not enough historic data on X did Y on date Z. But before scripts became popular, the only way for a king to become immortal was the oral tradition, and there there was really a paucity of recorders. It would have been difficult for a small king to put up a group of Brahmins solely responsible for keeping memory of his doings. Probably because it was neither affordable nor practical to use this method of knowledge preservation and transmission, only little knowledge was recorded. For this reason the tradition of historicity did not mature in India.

Interesting thing is that where others have more recent historical knowledge, Indians are the only ones with really old historical information but little intermediary.

So when the Vedas were composed early on, and then all the other scriptures, this preservation of thus generated knowledge in fact occupied all the recording resources of all the subsequent generations. Thus no recording resources (hymn reciting Brahmins) were available to record all the new generated knowledge in the intermediary period, until script came along, but by then the tradition of not recording newly generated knowledge about the lives of kings, etc. had set in firmly, and so few bothered.

That's my reading of it. But at the same time, I would claim that the really old, the 5000 plus years old information is concerned, we are better off than most other civilizations, and at that time historicity did play an important role for us.

Apathy and disinterest towards historicity was not always an issue with Indians. Puranas, Ramayana and Mahabharata as historical texts do contain historically relevant information.

So our disinterest in historicity cannot be generalized over all ages and that one tries to make that into some underlying meme of Indians and Dharma, and to use that to plead that Indians do not really care about history.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Jul 2012 03:45

All kinds of other non-sacred literature has been preserved in the Sanskrit corpus, so the argument about resources doesn't hold I think. I have seen the statement that Sanskrit has the largest extant "secular" literature of the ancient world.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jul 2012 07:35

A_Gupta wrote:
3. Alberuni, c 1000 AD, also notes the historical confusion of Hindus.
Unfortunately, the Hindus do not pay much attention to the historical order of things, they are very careless in relating the chronological succession of their kings, and when they are pressed for information and are at a loss, not knowing what to say, they invariably take to tale-telling. But for this, we should communicate to the reader the traditions which we have received from some people among them. I have been told that the pedigree of this royal family {the Hindu kings of Kabul}, written on silk, exists in the fortress Nagarkot, and I much desired to make myself acquainted with it, but the thing was impossible for various reasons.

One indicator of how far behind Indian scholarship is this quote. The quote is from an English translation of the original from Alberuni from Arabic by a German.

We will eventually need an Indian who knows Arabic to translate and comment on the original. just akin to Talageri/Rig Veda today

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Jul 2012 07:46

Sigh, a serious program of study must necessarily eat heavily into the time spent hanging around here.

You have to marvel at the sheer energy of the Europeans of that era, though.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jul 2012 07:57

RajeshA wrote: By "Professor" Uthaya Naidu
The Bible of Aryan Invasions (1500 BC - 1000 AD) - Aryan Invasions & Genocide of Negroes, Semites & Mongols

I would suggest that this post be edited to make the url non clickable

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jul 2012 07:59

A_Gupta wrote:Sigh, a serious program of study must necessarily eat heavily into the time spent hanging around here.

You have to marvel at the sheer energy of the Europeans of that era, though.

Let me post some thoughts on this. If you develop a society into a wealthy and comfortable one and build up a class of people with leisure, then you have educated people with the time to do such things. Europe was a century or more into this phase in that era. India is actually just beginning to get there. Indians in the US particularly are educated, well read and are getting to retirement age and contributing a lot. It's starting in India as well.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Jul 2012 10:28

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote: By "Professor" Uthaya Naidu
The Bible of Aryan Invasions (1500 BC - 1000 AD) - Aryan Invasions & Genocide of Negroes, Semites & Mongols
I would suggest that this post be edited to make the url non clickable

shiv saar,

I have changed that.

However the link was leading to scribd.com and not to their website.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Jul 2012 10:39

A_Gupta wrote:All kinds of other non-sacred literature has been preserved in the Sanskrit corpus, so the argument about resources doesn't hold I think. I have seen the statement that Sanskrit has the largest extant "secular" literature of the ancient world.

A_Gupta ji,

the debate, and I am presuming this, is on the lines of because we didn't care about historicity earlier, today also we should retain that attitude towards our history because it is based on sound philosophical foundations, i.e. history distracts one from pursuing the truly important goals in life, as it makes us a prisoner of the past; that we don't need history because we have a unhistorical past - out itihaas.

Now such philosophical thinking may have developed in India. I don't know whether it was always there or whether it was in reaction to explain the gaps in our history - that the gaps were not accidental but deliberate.

But at the time when our older scriptures were being written, the Rsis did encode astronomical data from which dates can be inferred. So from that I would presume that the ancient Indians did not have this attitude.

I personally am inclined to their worldview, and not to what came later.