Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 06 Jul 2012 17:42

Shiv ji, your experience in Medicine matches mine in law and finance.

Yet to see an MBA make a big business without using the same tactics that a local Lala does and yet to see a Lawyer that does not want to throw the client to the dogs for eternity.

And the funny thing is I have seen successful Lalas who were successful without the MBA degree, pushing their wards to MBA schools in US even when these wards are really not interested.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 17:46

shiv wrote:Only Indians who are approaching retirement now - who were born in the 1940s or 50s and have lived full lives in the shadow of western science are beginning to open their eyes to what exists in india.

In the next 50 years, you would not even get one poster like you shiv ji.. after we have erased everything, we are only left with perhaps a story line that once there was a hero named.... and if BR backups is trashed, there is no way someone will even mention about such a site.

It is important to note this.. especially if we (minority) all think, we need to preserve.. and the only way is re-writing text books or best start schools of learning that teaches the way it should be for our future. leaving the current history to the gov, people should move it.. and subscribe to schools and learning centers like missions.. and then slowly get accredited.

When one does, it, science and advanced studies and pee chaddis programs will be seen in the future. the only way to revival.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 17:56

In general, I am a positive thinking optimistic guy. A huge number of people I know lead their most rewarding phases of life after their brahmacharya and grihasta phases of life are done - starting from 50 and working up to 75 or longer in contributing in just the areas we are discussing here.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2012 18:01

Here is one initiative. Too bad one doesn't find the various papers they produce.

I-Serve: Institute of Scientific Research on Vedas

Objectives:

To identify, collect, categorize and study scriptures such as Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Shastras, Agamas, Tantras, Samhitas etc; scattered all over the country and the world; to unveil their scientific secrets and unravel their mysteries so that scientific wonders are discovered and shared with the entire humanity
To decipher and discover the scientific theories, techniques and knowledge in several fields of study such as agriculture, medicine, energy, minerals and metals, mathematics etc. which were the foundation of the Vedic civilization that was highly advanced and scientifically developed.
To provide a platform for individual scholars and groups, as well as, institutions involved in Vedic studies and coordinating and cooperating with them in their endeavors and utilize their energies and resources to supplement and support our efforts in the discovery of suitable scientific knowledge useful to modern society.
To explore and identify the potential technologies pregnant with possibilities of application to the most pressing problem faced by current society, in areas such as, environmental degradation, pollution, poverty, malnutrition, widespread diseases etc; to improve the standard of life, for the common man and make life safer and secured.
To disseminate information on the products, processes and technologies found feasible for adoption by various sectors, societies, cultures and countries and encourage the intervention and initiative of state, central and international agencies to popularize their adoption in the areas concerned.
To directly and indirectly arouse interest in our Vedas and Vedic culture in India and around the world, more importantly, in the scientific community and to explore the depths of Vedas, not only for scientific solutions, but also for, ancient wisdom, heralding worldwide interest in India's culture, its traditions and its attainments in the spiritual and material fields.
To utilize scientific tools for the purpose of reconstructing the History of ancient Indian civilization & culture, to arrive at undisputed conclusions.

The achievement of these objectives is possible only when learned Scholars of Indian scriptures, modern Scientists, Sanskrit Scholars, University Professors and many others from different walks of life come forward to work together, think together, analyze together. The nectar that comes out of such an intellectual churning should benefit the entire Humanity.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 18:01

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tusw0P ... &q&f=false
Ayurveda: The Science of Self-Healing : A Practical Guide
By Vasant Lad

Scientific Basis for Ayurvedic Therapies
edited by Lakshmi Chandra Mishra
http://books.google.com/books?id=qo0VPG ... &q&f=false

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2012 18:18

A Report on
the National Seminar on "Scientific Dating of Ancient Events Before 2000 BC"
Held on 30th & 31st July, 2011
Organized by I-Serve

The astronomical dates of planetary references in ancient books calculated by the eminent astronomers by making use of planetarium software, indicate the development of an indigenous civilization in India from dates even prior to 6000 BC. Astronomical references in Rigveda represent the sky view of dates belonging to the period from 8000 BC to 4000 BC and those mentioned in Ramayan refer to sky views seen sequentially on dates around 5000 BC. These dates are exclusive and match sequentially.
The ecological references in ancient books, especially those relating to melting of glaciers and fluctuations in water volumes of ancient rivers, seem to corroborate such astronomical dates. Recent research reports on paleoclimatic changes have revealed that, after the last ice age and in the beginning of the Holocene, the glaciers first melted near the equator i.e. in south India, and civilisation started developing on the Banks of the rivers which started flowing there. When populations multiplied, these river waters became insufficient and some more adventurous people started travelling from south to north. Such northward migration continued for several centuries & finally when these people reached the banks of Himalayan Rivers, they got climatic conditions conducive to long term development of civilisation on the banks of these rivers providing security of water, food & shelter. Thousands of years later, when some of these Himalayan Rivers become non-perennial or started drying up, some of these people moved towards Central Asia and Europe. As per ecologists this ecological cycle has been repeating itself and will get repeated after every ice age.
Remote Sensing pictures taken by ISRO, corroborated by geological reports, have revealed that a mighty river system, referred to in Vedas and Epics as Saraswati, was flowing with full majesty around 6000 BC. The river slowly dried up and almost disappeared around 3000 BC. These conclusions have been supported by sedimentology, hydrogeology and drilling data. These conclusions not only support the astronomical dates of Vedas and Epics but also support such references in ancient books.
The oceanographic reports on fluctuations of water levels in the oceans have revealed the existence of many coastal archaeological sites, either submerged or now found land locked, dated from 7500 BC onwards e.g. Hazira, Dholavira, Juni Kuran, Sur Kotda, Prabhas Patan and Dwarka etc. These supported the historicity and dating of many events mentioned in our Epics i.e. submersion of Dwarka in Mahabharata era and use of Ramsetu as land route in Ramayana era.
The paleobotanical research reports have revealed that certain cultivated varieties of plants, trees and herbs, which are mentioned in Vedas and Epics, have existed in India continuously for more than 8000-10000 years. Remains of cultivated rice, wheat and barley have been found belonging to 7000 BC; melon seeds, lemon leaf, pomegranate, coconut and date palm etc relating to 4000BC; lentils, millets and peas etc from 3000 BC; use of reetha, anwla and shikkakai for making shampoo since2500 BC. These plants remained in use continuously indicating that there was not any abrupt end of ancient Indian civilisation as is normally being taught in schools and colleges.
The latest archaeological excavations have revealed large volume of new data which has proved the indigenous origin and development of civilisation in the Indian Subcontinent since 7000 BC. Some examples are: Lahuradeva, Jhusi, Tokwa and Hetapatti in Ganga Valley in the east; Mehrgarh, Kot Diji and Nausharo in Indus valley in the northwest; Lothal and Dholavira in the west. The material testimonies of these excavations have shown gradual cultural developments from the 7th-6th millennium BC in the entire region of IndusSaraswati-Ganga system for a period of almost eight thousand years. Thus archaeology is also supporting the astronomical, ecological and anthropological conclusions that Aryans were originals of India, they have been creating and nurturing a continuously developing civilisation for last 10000 years and dispersal probably happened the other way round.
The anthropological research reports have established that DNA dating for paleolithic continuity starts from 60000 BC. The Genome studies during the Holocene have revealed that the genetic profile of humans settled in north, south, east and west of India is the same and has remained the same for the last more than 11000 years. It is also significant to note that the inhabitants of the Harappan civilisation were not a mysterious people of unknown biological origins, or migrants from western/central Asia, but they were the indigenous people identified with the pre/early Harappan cultures of northwestern region of the Indian subcontinent. Therefore, contrary to the popular belief, the Dravidians as well as north Indians have common ancestors and both are originals of India, have common genetic profile and thus had common ancestors.

At the Seminar, H.E Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam endorsed the scientific methods of dating of ancient events and emphasized that a mechanism needs to be built to disseminate the knowledge and information generated during the seminar amongst school and college children to generate a shared pride in our rich and ancient most heritage. His speech acted as a big motivating factor and as a morale booster for the research team of ISERVE. He made many important recommendations, which included:

Launching research on India's Epics with at least 100 Ph.Ds with highly talented historical, geological, astronomical and space scientists to ascertain the veracity of history and dates of events in our epics.
The scientific dating of our epics has also to be related to Genealogy and with human genome sequences.
The evolution of human origin put forth by Prof Tobias should be related to events of Indian epics. After all, every Indian epic deals with human history, their conflicts and their civilization.
The spoken language period as per Prof. Tobias is around 10000 years old and the birth of Rama based on the 9th tithi of Chaitra month and sky view of planetary configurations at the time of birth dates to 10th January in 5114 BC, that is 7125 years back. We need to establish the relationship between the birth of spoken language and the evolution of Valmiki Ramayana.

Please read the original report!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2012 19:32

Saroj Bala and Kulbhushan Mishra have brought out a new book 'Historicity of Vedic and Ramayan Eras'

Publication June 17, 2012
Authors: Saroj Bala and Kulbhushan Mishra
Saroj Bala, Director I-Serve, Delhi Chapter
Kulbhushan Mishra, Indian Archaeological Society
Historicity of Vedic and Ramayan Eras: Scientific Evidences from the Depths of the Oceans to the Height of Skies

The Book seeks to answer following questions-

Is it time to rewrite the true history of the world, particularly of the Indian subcontinent, on purely scientific basis ignoring the linguistic guesswork and the religious beliefs?
Can the Planetary Configurations mentioned in Vedas, Epics and other ancient books be used to determine the exact dates of events mentioned therein?
Was Lord Ram a real historical character? If yes, when did he travel from Ayodhya to Sri Lanka to bring succor to millions of innocent and suffering Indians?
Do the planetary references in Valmiki Ramayan refer to the exclusive sky views, generated by planetarium software, seen sequentially around 5000 BC?
Was Ramsethu a walkable bridge in 5000 BC as per sea level curve prepared by the oceanographers of the world?
Do the recent archaeological excavations in Sringaverpura, Allahabad, Lahuradeva, Jhussi and Mehrgarh etc. support the references to flora, fauna and weaponary in Ramayan?
Does the description of some unique places referred to in Ramayan match the geographic and geological features of some recently discovered places like Kotumsar caves in Dandak Van and caves of Chitrakoot.
Are some of the plants, trees and herbs referred to in Ramayan found in existence in India continuously during last more than 5000 tears?
Did Saraswati River actually flow from the Himalayas to the Sea and was it really a mighty river in 5000 BC?

I believe I-Serve is an institution worth supporting.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 06 Jul 2012 19:54

Lord, too many books to read.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2012 20:01

venug ji,

just don't spend money on the books of AIT-Nazis! They don't deserve it. It's best to read some online scan of them, if needed or available. That is one positive piracy!

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 06 Jul 2012 20:03

Thanks Rajesh garu, yes I don't spend on money them, but for example the book above I guess is worth a read, thank for posting..you already posted many good books.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2012 20:50

Digital Library - Resources of Indian Cultural Heritage (DL-RICH)

One can also go through the Manuscripts Catalog.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 20:52

gurus here could do a summary of the books and conclusions from it., for lazy aam readers.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jul 2012 21:08

i think the summary is presented in rajeshji's mail a few posts further up

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Jul 2012 21:09

Here is one desi AIT-Sepoy.

By Kumar Sanjay Jha
A glimpse of VEDIC LITERATURE

Kumar Sanjay Jha is an employee of Indira Gandhi National Center for the Arts (IGNCA), a government undertaking.

He writes

The Rg-Veda, Samveda and Yajurveda are collectively known as Vedatrayi. Atharva Veda is considered a later addition. Bharatamuni's Natyasastra is considered to be the panchama Veda (fifth Veda). The Rg-Veda is the oldest among all Vedas. It must have been compiled over several centuries. Some of the earliest hymns are said to have been composed around 1500 BC. These were passed on from the teacher to the disciple, orally. The different parts (mandalas) are ascribed to different families of seers' e.g. Gautama and Kanva etc. It is the foundation of all the Vedic literature.

The Rg-Veda is neither a historical nor a heroic poem but is mainly a collection of hymns by a number of priestly families. The hymns addressed to various Gods such as Agni, Indra etc are recited at the time of sacrificial rites and other rituals. The Rg-Veda contains 1028 hymns (sukta) which are divided into ten mandalas and sometimes into astakas. Mandalas 2 to 7 are considered to be the earliest of all compositions.

Mandala VI is the earliest.

!!! 1500 BC !!! - So it means that is the official position.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jul 2012 21:13

RajeshA wrote:
!!! 1500 BC !!! - So it means that is the official position.

He writes what he has been taught. He has not been taught to think for himself

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 21:43

Lalmohan wrote:i think the summary is presented in rajeshji's mail a few posts further up

sure.. but my aam mind was thinking they were questions to which the book answers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 21:55

RajeshA wrote:
Historicity of Vedic and Ramayan Eras: Scientific Evidences from the Depths of the Oceans to the Height of Skies

(iii) Recent research reports on paleoclimatic changes have revealed that, after the last ice age and in the beginning of the Holocene, the glaciers naturally first melted near the equator i.e. in Sri Lanka and south India, and civilisation started developing on the banks of the rivers which started flowing there. When populations multiplied, these river waters became insufficient and some more adventurous people started travelling from south to north. Such northward migration continued for several centuries and finally when these people reached the banks of Himalayan Rivers, they got climatic conditions conducive to long term development of civilisation on the banks of these rivers providing security of water, food and shelter. Thousands of years later, when some of these Himalayan rivers became non-perennial or started drying up, some of these people moved towards Central Asia, West Asia and Europe. As per ecologists, this ecological cycle has been repeating itself and will get repeated after every ice age. So did any Aryans really come from Central Asia to civilise the people of India or the dispersal probably happened the other way round?
.

I was always thinking civilization started way down.. below kanya kumari point, that is now submerged.

btw, the sleeping vishnu stories have more representation in the south temples rather north.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jul 2012 22:10

the questions are pretty much rhetorical

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 22:32

answers too?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 06 Jul 2012 22:35

Ayurved is the only time tested medicinal system. Tested continuously for at least 2000 years.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2012 22:50

one request: when we qualify the thoughts/learning with dates, why give only the lower bound? if your thoughts are only expanding to a date like 2000 years, is sure a cultural indoctrination that has fallen on us.

Anything beyond 2000 year back is bogus and all fall under rhetorical values or fear of getting into assumption world makes no sense.. if there are no dates specified, let us leave it at that than giving it any type of bounds.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jul 2012 22:52

saik - huh?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Jul 2012 22:55

shiv wrote:Arun the problem you have raised is an interesting one and it has an almost exact analogy in medicine where Ayurveda gets translated into mmumbo-jumbo by imbecilic translations that ultimately have no meaning in allopathic ("modern") medical terms.

There is almost no medical practitioner (Ayurveda or Allopathy) I know who can accurately transmit Ayurvedic terminology and theory into a language that a modern medical practitioner can understand and use in a fashion that is acceptable to the standards of modern medical practice. The approach is totally different and Ayurveda is not based on the physics and chemistry of the type that you and I have been taught - which is what modern medical practice revolves around. But yet Ayurveda has some uncanny insights into disease processes and human reactions to disease that are unknown to medicine and some appear "unknowable" because science does not accept that mode of thought.

As I see it the fundamental difference stem from the starting point, or the basic assumptions of modern medicine versus Ayurveda.

In Indian sciences, Ayurveda included, human life and indeed all life are seen as mart of a greater whole that is connected up with the earth, the weather , the environment, the sun and moon and the universe beyond. Humans are seen as one part of that whole. Western "modern" science sees humans as separate from the rest as discrete entities that can be totally isolated from the environment. Neither approach is totally wrong, but they meet at some point. Defining that meeting point is impossible given the stringent demands of modern science. For Ayurveda, it is not necessary to prove that such a meeting point exists where the individual human joins up with his environment and the "outside". The "proofs" accepted in Indian sciences are not the proofs accepted as proof in western science. They would be called working hypotheses that seem to be rules for which no final proof has been obtained. But obtaining such proof in most cases in impossible. Indian sciences are a bit like the study of the distant universe and sub atomic particles. Proofs of many things do not exist in the way proof is demanded - they are beliefs or theories that explain known phenomena. People such as Einstein were "seers" in the mould of Rishis in that they did not wait for proof to build models, and were able to build rock solid models that work even in the absence of proof.

Some of the discoveries of Ayurveda are astounding given that the same things discovered and used millennia ago but were "rediscovered" by modern science in the last couple of centuries. Sadly, other then me personally, I have not even found other doctors writing or talking about some of these things. It is up to Indian researchers to open their eyes and lay the links open for the general scientific community, but Indian science is still under Macaulay's shadow. Only Indians who are approaching retirement now - who were born in the 1940s or 50s and have lived full lives in the shadow of western science are beginning to open their eyes to what exists in india.

Shiv, I know a doc who is currently employed in Pfizer (Regulatory Affairs) is so enamoured by the side effects of Allopathy that, he fears(thats a mild word) and never want to get treatment from Allopathic system.

I think the biggest down fall of Allopathic is when it put itself into a money making machine. I guess better than anyone you know what I am saying.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 07 Jul 2012 04:24

On a lighter note, in the american sci fi movie Prometheus, there has been some interesting discussions in some other forum on the language used in the movie for Proto-IndoEuropean language. It turns out to be Sanskrit with modifications.

Prometheus Takes Flight With Cutting-Edge VFX Technology

Hemphill and Bartlett worked closely with Ridley Scott to deliver a “gritty track with highly styled acoustic environments” in this sci-fi horror film. Bartlett recorded Sanskrit syllables that were modified and used with controls, buttons, and background sounds to provide ancient language audio motifs. They also had to deal with a number of audio challenges throughout the process.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jul 2012 04:59

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/manda ... ameset.htm
Interesting read on Ayurveda and Surgery..

This is an interesting story of Brain surgery:
http://www.changampally.com/masters.htm

Brain surgery on king Bhoja by Jeevaka, famous neurosurgeon and personal physician to Lord Bhudha.

Susrutha(1000BC)-Father of surgery-performing plastic surgery of ear.

one more story link
http://indianknowledgesystemacademy.blo ... mular.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2012 05:34

SaiK, Can you please spell properly!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jul 2012 06:49

Apologies ramana, the previous was a copy from that link. However, I should have corrected it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jul 2012 07:45

Kanson wrote: I think the biggest down fall of Allopathic is when it put itself into a money making machine. I guess better than anyone you know what I am saying.

The western paradigm of science is good and it works, but it cannot expand unless the Indian paradigm, which is much older is also absorbed into scientific thought. The western method is one of reductionism where an object is broken into parts to try and see how it works. This has been criticized as the act of smashing a watch into small cogs and springs to try and see how it works. The criticism is partially valid. In some cases it is necessary to study the world from the opposite direction - that is not to smash it or cut it into component parts but study the whole and see how the whole related to other macroscopic objects to make up a greater whole that constitutes the world or the universe. The Indian approach was the latter one and is at least 5000 years old.

Where western science is beginning to reach its limits and fail is exactly in his method of reductionist analysis. I can quote many examples of how the reductionist approach in medicine has failed because it leads to short term gains but long term failures. One example is the recognition that a blind "low fat" approach to diet to prevent heart disease may actually be harmful and aggravate heart disease. Other examples would be the recognition that pinpoint molecular level approaches to pain relief have a whole lot of unintended consequences leading to caution or even banning of over the counter pain killers.

Recent reports of the way the Air France Airbus crashed over the ocean are an illustration of how scientific over-attention to detail can lead to the ignoring of macro-factors or larger issues that are missed because too much attention and faith was being put into detail. In a tragic series of events the fully automated fly by wire plane started giving misleading signals in the cockpit due to malfunctioning sensors. But so much faith had been put in this "fail safe fly by wire" technology that pilot training has started ignoring "seat of pants" flying where common aerodynamic issues are learned with few instruments. The pilots of the aircraft that crashed were fully qualified on simulators but did not seem to have the "seat of pants" common sense to understand what happened when the sensors malfunctioned. In a disastrous series of human and tech failure the pilots stalled the plane and it crashed into the sea killing everyone. The twin failure here was the assumption that the people who designed the plane had made it fail safe and the it was no longer necessary for pilots to under go the "old, outdated" forms of training where they read signals directly from the plane's apparent behaviour and reacted based on that. The pilots might have sensed that pulling the nose up was the wrong thing to do if they had some seat of pants real time flying training.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2012 08:19

If some issue has some relevance to. AIT vs Indigenism/OIT Debate please go ahead and post, otherwise please reconsider!

There is much to be appreciated in India's knowledge systems, but not all belongs in this thread!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jul 2012 08:53

RajeshA wrote:If some issue has some relevance to. AIT vs Indigenism/OIT Debate please go ahead and post, otherwise please reconsider!

There is much to be appreciated in India's knowledge systems, but not all belongs in this thread!

Your point is well taken, but for some of us to gain an understanding of how and why western scholarly thought procesess have developed it is essential to appreciate the direction from which AIT Nazis approach the topic. We actually had plenty of similar OT discussions of this genre in earlier pages were the quibbles were about dating, genetics and horse bone evidence. All those arguments are examples of how western scholarship approach these issues. Since many of us have spent our lives understanding that method we need appropriate examples that would help us counter the Nazis, so to that extent you will have to be patient with what you see as an incursion into your topic.

What I have pointed out above has an uncannily exact analogy in how the Rig Veda is studied through the lenses of western scholarship. I have used the analogy of smashing a watch to look at its parts to see how it works as an example of reductionism. Western scholarship dissects the Rig Veda into its constituent parts and says "Hey this part says horse. Did horses exist in India? if they did where are the horse bones? if there are horse bones, are they caballus?". What would be considered as ignoring the forest for the trees is considered as "good scientific method" when it comes to reductionism. Reductionist method would be to look at the Mona Lisa and infer that Da Vinci was in love with her or was actually gay based on some minute arcane details from the painting.

Links to Dr. Balagangadhara's writings in Arun Gupta's post reveal some great insights into this process.

The meaning of the Rig Veda for Indians does not lie in whether horses were caballus or not but the preservation of cultural meaning and continuity for millennia in a way that connects up ancient practices with modern India. The application of reductionist 'science' selectively where convenient needs to be noticed and the idiots who are doing this need to be shown up as the frauds they are.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 07 Jul 2012 11:12

Rajesh ji, do read the following w.r.t. light measurements, as inline text and then read what Subhash Kak has to say (also linked below). This will help you realise how the western nonsense has gone on for long.

Most people just assume that since no proof is provided so no brain was used. As if it is really important to convince any body. It is only when things are put in perspective that people learn how one cannot really rely (at least without excercising ones own though) on what passes off for science. And Shiv ji is right more then enough of our own people are hoodwinked by all this. In some other thread we have a Scientifically inclined member telling us why Bose should not be brought into this mass particle business as that would lead the world to laugh at us!

And then our fellow member goes on to justify his PoV with the example of Fermions. I having been raised on desi stuff, was surprised that the guy who discovered the need for Fermions is sidelined whenever a new Fermion is discovered. This is more like presenting a new improved Prophet with his own claim to a church, with every new discovery (most times these are not even discoveries and are merely experiments or derivations). At this rate we Indians would have had more Prophets then Gods had we also decided to follow this new all improved Science.

Rajesh ji the need for the fractured 'Clerical' GIGO, that we find so often in the west arises because of this piecemeal viewing of the world.

In another context of Business the situation is even more stark and connected to the life of a country directly.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/R ... ure_c.html

This table gives some of the best measurements according to Froome and Essen:

Date Author Method Result (km/s) Error
1676 Olaus Roemer Jupiter's satellites 214,000
1726 James Bradley Stellar Aberration 301,000
1849 Armand Fizeau Toothed Wheel 315,000
1862 Leon Foucault Rotating Mirror 298,000 +-500
1879 Albert Michelson Rotating Mirror 299,910 +-50
1907 Rosa, Dorsay Electromagnetic constants 299,788 +-30
1926 Albert Michelson Rotating Mirror 299,796 +-4
1947 Essen, Gorden-Smith Cavity Resonator 299,792 +-3
1958 K. D. Froome Radio Interferometer 299,792.5 +-0.1
1973 Evanson et al Lasers 299,792.4574 +-0.001
1983 Adopted Value 299,792.458

Subhash Kak
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/manda ... ameset.htm

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2012 13:56

shiv wrote:so to that extent you will have to be patient with what you see as an incursion into your topic.

Well since I started the thread, it is just a part of the responsibility that goes with it, that the discussion remains pertinent, but I don't consider it my topic, as such.

shiv wrote:What I have pointed out above has an uncannily exact analogy in how the Rig Veda is studied through the lenses of western scholarship.

I see. Thanks for pointing out the connection.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2012 14:31

As far as reductionism goes, Rajiv Malhotra also speaks of 'Integral vs. Synthetic Unity' in 'Being Different'.

My opinion on this is...

Systems which come about naturally through evolution have an integral unity intrinsic to them - be it cosmos, earth and nature, the human body, a civilization, a philosophy, etc. In civilizations and philosophy, humans are just part of the system.

Then there are man-made systems that are built, assembled, put together, constructed; they have a synthetic unity. But these systems in their design have also experienced evolution, so at the level of design, these systems also have an integral unity, but at the physical level they have synthetic unity.

So any analysis man does on these systems, must keep this into consideration. However systems which experience evolution, they change with time, and their are factors at work which drive that change. It is legitimate to look for these factors.

In biological systems there may be mutations or adjustment to changing environment and demands. In civilizations there may be natural catastrophes, external assaults, revolutions or technological breakthroughs, all affecting the path of evolution. A new equilibrium, a new integral unity is established. It is legitimate to study these drivers of change.

Our civilization too has gone through certain violent hiccups - the melting of the glaciers, the drying up of the Saraswati, the Islamic invasions, the British colonialism, technological era, globalization, etc.

The AIT-Nazis are of the opinion that an 'Aryan Invasion' was also a violent hiccup. We Indics believe, there was no such hiccup.

What the AIT-Nazis are doing is not science. It is a tunnel vision, where one has a theory and no empiric evidence of it, and then one grasps in desperation at straws but would allow the flood of evidence to overwhelm oneself.

The theory is there not necessarily because their analysis does not differentiate between systems which show integral vs synthetic unity. The raison d'être for AIT is simply Nazi thinking. Not letting go of superiority ideology even if reality is that they don't really have a glorious past beaming with scientific thinking and as a stake-holder in a language and culture which brought about the ancient scientific accomplishments.

As long as they have world domination, they would find it very difficult to let go of claims to a glorious past and to adjust to a reality of a mediocre past. As we have seen in this thread, they have very weak cards, scientifically speaking, and those who swear by science and live on lies would also fall by science and light of truth. Sooner or later!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2012 15:02

Off-Topic: India's Scientific Heritage

Publication Date: 2006
Publisher: Samskrita Bharati
Authors: R.M. Pujari, Pradeep Kolhe, N. R. Kumar
Pride of India: A Glimpse Into India's Scientific Heritage

Also available @Samskrita Bharati

Relevant:
Chap 7: Dating the Civilization (IVC)
Chap 8: Dating the Vedas

If somebody has the book, one may wish to write a summary of the above two chapters.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jul 2012 15:17

I need help from Arun Gupta or anyone else who is willing to help. The problem I have in my mind is as follows.

Rig Vedic Sanskrit, Avestan and Old Persian have been listed as sister languages. I think Sanskrit is much older, but that is not the issue here.

Sanskrit and Avestan both exist in attested sources. Old Persian was deciphered from the "Brhistun Inscription". The story of the decipherment is interesting, but the decipherment only got a mumbo jumbo language without any meaning. The translation of that language was done by "Thompson and King" in 1907.

When I read the Old Persian text it is very very similar to Sanskrit. I can directly understand some of the sentences. I am not in a position (yet) to criticise the decipherment itself, which may not be fully accurate, but I am interested in how Shri Thompson and Shri King actually translated the mumbo jumbo deciphered words of old Persian. It is clear that if anyone is familiar with Sanskrit he can easily begin translating the deciphered text. If no one knows Sanskrit that text cannot be translated.

i have found an online copy of the original 1907 book by Thompson and King that is always quoted in translations of the Old Persian in the Behistun inscription. It is viewable/downloadable here

The problem I have is follows. Thompson and King simply write out the translations. They do not say how they understood the Old Persian language after it was deciphered into sentences like "aham daravayus kshayathiya"- which as far as I can tell can only be done by familiarity with Sanskrit. If they knew Sanskrit they mention nothing in their book.

My problem is to find out who and how the Behistun inscription language of Old Persian got translated after it was deciphered. There is more than enough info about how it was deciphered.

I think there is wealth of information yet to be discovered here. All the refs to translations of that inscription are old studies and all quote Thomson and King as far as I can tell and their accuracy may be yet to be ascertained. No one asks the question I have asked. No one asks how T&K understood. It must be there somewhere but I have not found it.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2012 15:25

ravi_g wrote:Most people just assume that since no proof is provided so no brain was used. As if it is really important to convince any body. It is only when things are put in perspective that people learn how one cannot really rely (at least without excercising ones own though) on what passes off for science. And Shiv ji is right more then enough of our own people are hoodwinked by all this.

ravi_g ji,

there are sciences which are really sciences, and theories are based on data and subjectivity/selectivitiy is kept to a minimum. Then there are "sciences" like historical and comparative linguistics, etc. which are just a field wide open for AIT-Nazis peddling their pet racist theories in the garb of science. There are other such "sciences" as well!

So basically depending from science field to science field one can have different trust levels. Secondly around the world, Western science has been able to build for itself a reputation and Western scientists are considered prophets close to the Truth and their thoroughness, diligence, honesty are considered above reproach. Indians scientists and archaeologists are considered on the other hand fools who spoil the archaeological layers while digging.

For me, the Western scientists are mere mortals and those Western engaged in the sciences of historical and comparative linguistics, Indologists, Sanskritists and the like are per default a bunch of mediocre racists, until they prove otherwise.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2012 15:34

As mentioned by shiv earlier

Books @openlibrary.org, one can read online

Publication Date: 1907
By Dārayavauš (Old Persian) (Darius I)
Translators: Leonard William King (1869-1919), Reginald Campbell Thompson (1876-1941)
The Sculptures and Inscription of Darius the Great on the Rock of Behistûn in Persia

In the preface, it is written

Page vii
The inscription was first copied and translated by the late Major-General Sir Henry Creswicke Rawlinson, Bart., G.C.B., whose study of it enabled him to bring to a succesful issue the decipherment of the Cuneiform Inscriptions. His edition of the Persian text, accompanied by a Commentary, appeared in the tenth volume of the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society in 1847, and his final edition of the texts of the Babylonian version was published by the Trustees of the British Museum in Cuneiform Inscriptions of Western Asia, Vol. III, plate 39f.

Page xxix
The examination of the Susian text was entrusted by Sir Henry Rawlinson to Edwin Norris, Secretary of the Royal Asiatic Society, to whom the first translation is due. The Babylonian version was first published and translated by Rawlinson himself.

Some background on decipherment.

I don't know how far that is helpful.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 07 Jul 2012 17:58

Off-Topic somewhat!

Rony ji,

thanks for the info on Prometheus - the Movie.

Hemphill and Bartlett worked closely with Ridley Scott to deliver a “gritty track with highly styled acoustic environments” in this sci-fi horror film. Bartlett recorded Sanskrit syllables that were modified and used with controls, buttons, and background sounds to provide ancient language audio motifs. They also had to deal with a number of audio challenges throughout the process.

Hollywood has often sourced many of its stories and elements from the Indic Civilization. There is a recognition in Hollywood perhaps that their origins do lie in India and in Sanskrit or some very similar language.

Star Wars was basically based on Hinduism. Here is an article:

Published May, 2005
By Steven J. Rosen
Yoda and Yoga

He also wrote a book on that

Publication Date: October 19, 2010
By Steven J. Rosen
The Jedi in the Lotus: Star Wars and the Hindu Tradition

Earlier another author had written on this comparing it to Buddhism

Publication Date: April 15, 2005
By Matthew Bortolin
The Dharma Of Star Wars

Similarly you had the Matrix Trilogy.
In Matrix, the Movie they explored the concept of Maya.
In Matrix Reloaded they explored Free Will (adhyatma, adhibhuta, adhidaiva, niyati, karma).
In Matrix Revolutions they explored Dharma.

Also in Battlestar Galactica (2004), they used the Gayatri Mantra as the opening theme music, even though they showed the society to be based on polytheistic Roman religion, almost as if Hinduism was foundation of even that form of polytheism, and basically symbolized the human endeavor and story.

--------------------

Considering how big the reach of Hollywood is, in time it would be beneficial if Indics could control some of the message that comes out of Hollywood. The Chinese are buying heavily into Hollywood in order to promote themselves and their culture. Think "Kung-Fu Panda"! One also often sees Hollywood celebrities who convert to some other religion, often it is Buddhism, and then promote the interests of their faiths in whatever way possible. India too would have to increase our influence.

To overturn AIT in the public perception in the West and even among some Indians, it would be good if Hollywood too would help establish Indian Indigenism or Out-of-India Theory in the popular perception in the world. A Hollywood movie making fun of PIE would be great!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 07 Jul 2012 18:36

I don't know if this language-teaching research will go anywhere. If it does, then since modern Indian languages have a connection with classical Sanskrit this might serve as a way to teach Sanskrit along with the mother tongue.
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/ ... ness-91827

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jul 2012 18:48

RajeshA wrote: In the preface, it is written
Page vii
The inscription was first copied and translated by the late Major-General Sir Henry Creswicke Rawlinson, Bart., G.C.B., whose study of it enabled him to bring to a succesful issue the decipherment of the Cuneiform Inscriptions. His edition of the Persian text, accompanied by a Commentary, appeared in the tenth volume of the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society in 1847, and his final edition of the texts of the Babylonian version was published by the Trustees of the British Museum in Cuneiform Inscriptions of Western Asia, Vol. III, plate 39f.

<snip>

I don't know how far that is helpful.

No Rajesh - that is part of the problem and every source confuses decipherment with translation. What rawlinson did was decipherment - referred to as translation in many sites. but on further searching all English translations are from King and Thompson whose book I linked.

Decipherment arrived at sentences like "aham daravayus kshayathiya". That has been translated to "I Darius King"

But I have a clue as to how to go about finding the answer. Will get back on the topic soon. Somehow it seems very vital to me. I will explain later. It may show up another massive self deluding fraud by linguistic AIT Nazis.