Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Manas »

My perspective will be focused on the repercussions for Russia and consequently India, world order due to this war. What is happening on the battlefield would be purely speculation due to the full spectrum (dis)information at play currently so I will stay out of any comments related to the success or lack thereof of Russia/Ukraine's military tactics.

Implications for Russia
  • Mr. Putin was always perceived to be a cunning strategist but this outright unprovoked *hot* war seems like was not well thought through in terms of its military/political objectives and the consequent economic war that the west has unleashed on Russia with its full impact expected to devastate the Russian economy and its people in the coming weeks. In essence Mr. Putin and his Generals seem to have displayed a Paki trait i.e. tactically brilliant, strategically stupid
  • The west will not rest till Mr. Putin's regime ends - one way or another, a western orchestrated coup, popular uprising or a loss in the upcoming 2024 elections will most likely end Putin's regime
  • The west would probably attempt to strip Russia of its veto and declare Putin a war criminal and prosecute him in absentia a la Milosevic. Unclear on what the U.N. Charter dictates when it comes to these types of attempts
  • It is highly unlikely Mr. Putin can/will extract any concessions from the west even if he takes a graceful off ramp out of this war. If anything if/once Russia and Ukraine sign a new peace agreement one can expect the sanctions regime to continue that will continue to strangle Russia and turn it and its people to face the same fate as Iraq/Iran
  • If the west continues its full economic blockade of Russia and pushes Mr. Putin to a corner - unlike Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, Assad or the Iranian regime - Russia/Putin may do the unthinkable i.e. resort to use of nuclear weapons. I really worry that the career deep staters in the U.S. and EU are salivating at the thought of complete Russian humiliation and surrender of Putin/Russia - and may end up triggering a full fledged hot war that is sure to lead down a slippery slope. Sanctioning the Russian Central bank and denying access to its sovereign assets, interdicting Russia bound ships, closing pretty much of all of European airspace to Russian airlines are extreme, last resort steps and probably as legal or as justified as Mr. Putin's ill advised invasion into Ukraine. In other words if Mr. Putin has nothing more to lose and is convinced that he is going down, cant be sure he will go down quietly
Implications for the world order and India
  • The Chinese will be a big beneficiary of this ill thought out mis-adventure by Putin. They will continue to stand up an alternative to SWIFT, position Yuan as the alternative reserve currency and court their client states, puppet leaders around the world to trade on their system, in their currency. In the long run the U.S. $s power will decline as more and more nations will move their sovereign assets, gold etc out of EU and U.S. custody
  • EU will unite militarily and will invest heavily in MIC, which actually is a good thing for U.S. tax payers and countries that want to diversify their military purchases
  • The U.S. MIC will be another early/big beneficiary as the initial EU investment will surely go to Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon etc
  • India can only count on U.S., EU support in "fair weather" and in the U.N and other multi-lateral "chai-biscuit" forums. When the rubber meets the road in its border conflicts and economic tug of war against China, India will be on its own. It is imperative for India to accelerate its infrastructure build out, unleash/encourage the private sector investment in MIC and provide tax sops for foreign entities that manufacture locally with guaranteed ToT in critical areas. India needs to model itself along the lines of Japan with one exception, build up tremendous economic, military might but also increase its reliance on more advanced conventional/nuclear missile systems both in terms of quantity and quality. Perhaps raising another mountain corps to deter China is worth debating as well as increasing IAFs squadron strength to sustain a 2 front defensive posture
  • Of immediate concern to India is to minimize the impact on its armed forces due to potential disruption of supply of spares and other technology from Russia that can impede India from keeping its armed forces in fighting shape
  • In the medium to long term - India needs to single mindedly pursue R & D, domestic realization of strategic technologies where it lacks the know how - military jet engines, any critical components that it is still reliant on imports for its missile, space program, semiconductors etc
  • It also needs to redouble efforts on securing mineral and ores critical for strategic segments from Africa, South America etc including lithium, palladium etc; EV, solar batteries, semiconductor manufacturing
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by eklavya »

Mort Walker wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^
Mort-ji, Russia started a war on Thursday. Germany hasn’t started a war since 1939. This equal / equal is stretching credulity a bit far.
The Europeans are cruel people by nature as you move from west to east. The Germans were participants in the cruel cold war. They are a threat to international peace and stability.
Germany is a key pillar of stability and prosperity. President Putin bears full responsibility for this awful war.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Mort Walker »

Putin did start this conflict. No questions about that. Rather, how did we get here?

As an aside - yes, Germany is currently a pillar of responsibility as it's security is with the US. Outside of the US, Germany is a primary contributor in personnel and resources to NATO. Once they spend more on defense, there is no reason why they won't return to a policy which favors Germany over NATO. We could easily see that in a decade.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

Ukraine agrees to talk with Russia along Belarus border amid Putin's nuke alert
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-ne ... 12807.html
27 Feb 2022
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/sta ... 56546?s=21 —> During a phone call with Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, President Volodymyr Zelensky agreed that the Ukrainian delegation would meet with the Russian delegation without preconditions on the Ukrainian-Belarusian border, near the Pripyat River.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by sanjaykumar »

Mort Walker wrote:
eklavya wrote:^^^^
Mort-ji, Russia started a war on Thursday. Germany hasn’t started a war since 1939. This equal / equal is stretching credulity a bit far.
The Europeans are cruel people by nature as you move from west to east. The Germans were participants in the cruel cold war. They are a threat to international peace and stability.

That is one reason for the outrage in Europe. That carefully nurtured civilisational contempt. For wars being something the lesser breeds have not grown out of. Well here is a Christian people doing it right before our eyes to another Christian people.


Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Yemen, Iraq-Iran, China-Tibet, Indi- Britain, India-Pakistan, nothing excited the European as this rediscovery of that atavistic blood lust.


It is unfortunate. I will keep my opinions on whose was the greater responsibility to myself, but this war of people who should know better is not hopeful for the future of humans on this planet.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by m_saini »

Manas wrote:My perspective will be ......, semiconductor manufacturing[/list]
+1. Very well thought out and completely agree!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Atmavik »

@Manas very good post. For us this is the time to go full throttle on desi MIC. We have depended for too long on Russian defense equipment.

If the Europeans are going to increase their defense spending we should invite them to setup manufacturing in India. As the Late Manohar Parikar ji put it we need to become a critical part of this supply chain. If we can act now this whole thing might benefit us in the long term
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by kit »

There is indeed a frightening scenario of a nuclear war ..if it all comes to an end ..it is the end . No NATO no Europe , i dont think they should be going overboard with sanctions and whatever. Irrational people will take irrational decisions.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cyrano »

A democratically elected head of State is threatened every 4/5 years. A dictator like Putin (feels he) is threatened every day. So the range of policy (or mood) swings is way more for the latter.

Putin may have had justifiable reasons to take a hard stance on Ukraine's rapprochement with NATO. But with no one around him left to create/explore softer options to get back influence in Ukraine he took it personally and is going overboard and all out - like dictators typically do - by brandishing the N option. I don't think Putin or Russia will recover from the consequences of N-menace anytime soon.

Modi will have to gonna ditch him soon and we are probably looking at a bipolar world allied with the West against a China-Russia bloc. Unless the West deposes Putin and ushers in democracy into Russia and turns into a vassal state. In which case it will be India with the West against China and the rest.

Atmanirbhar is a good 2/3 decades away and the world will not stand still while we catch up.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vijayk »

Does anyone remember Geroge Shultz or Jim Baker under Reagan and Goerge Bush Sr? They used to be smart foreign policy experts who brought the world back from the brink. This current crop of low IQ teams under Biden and Obama are 24x7 news whores, run diplomacy on twitter. Very very shallow idiots. They brought the world to the brink.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Mort Walker »

Manas ji,

Excellent post.
The Chinese will be a big beneficiary of this ill thought out mis-adventure by Putin. They will continue to stand up an alternative to SWIFT, position Yuan as the alternative reserve currency and court their client states, puppet leaders around the world to trade on their system, in their currency. In the long run the U.S. $s power will decline as more and more nations will move their sovereign assets, gold etc out of EU and U.S. custody
The SWIFT sanctions have not been used on such a large volume of forex sitting in European banks. Now that the globalists, including the US, has decided to implement it in this manner, and without immediate consequence is a more powerful tool than putting a country on the FATF grey list. It may be decided by the European banks that Russian forex which they've freezed can be used for Ukrainian reparations. Who knows for what reason and why the globalists may implement such a tool? It may be ideal for regime change.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rudradev »

My CT:

There is a cabal in the Kremlin who are very, very Russian nationalist but who feel that Putin has taken the Russian cause in a wrong direction. Maybe they object to his Syria intervention, or cyber warfare against US political parties; maybe they think that while his intentions were good, he played Russia's hand too soon and bungled everything in terms of slowly consolidating Moscow's influence over the EU; maybe they just find him too autocratic and "my way or the highway" in his leadership style.

This Kremlin cabal approached the West through back channels, pretending to be "Russian democratic reformists who want to get rid of Putin". Together, they hatched a plan whereby Putin could be goaded to mount an ill-fated hot war against Ukraine.

The invasion would be sabotaged at the middle-management level by agents of this Kremlin cabal itself. Old, rusty T-72s and T-54s would go in in place of the high-tech weaponry used in Syria. Young, inexperienced conscripts would be sent into battle rather than the hardened, seasoned veterans of Putin's previous actions. Artillery, infantry & air units would have their hands tied with the insistence to "limit Ukr civilian casualties" (like IPKF in SL). Large, indefensible convoys would be sent in as sitting ducks with inadequate fuel and other logistical support.

The Kremlin cabal knew that the invasion would not only get bogged down, but met by crippling sanctions directed at Putin and his inner circle. Meanwhile as time went on, both the Russian people and the Russian army would become disgruntled with both the war itself and its economic repercussions.

This would give the Kremlin cabal the window of opportunity to stage a coup and get rid of Putin and his ruling circle.

At the end of the day, you'd have:
1) A United States that had proved itself as toothless and incapable of NATO leadership as ever... and which, furthermore, could be lulled into thinking they had won a "victory" by replacing Putin with this reformist Kremlin cabal.
2) A Germany that had re-militarized, declared its independence from NATO/Washington and its political leadership over the EU. Potentially a useful ally for Moscow against both the US and (if need be) China in the future.
3) A Ukraine that was exhausted and bloodied, and which (with Putin gone & new Kremlin cabal in place) might collapse gratefully into the familiar embrace of the Rodina after all.
4) The potential for an EU-Russia axis that excluded the transatlantic hegemon and its British poodle, while providing a safe hedge for Moscow against betting too strongly on China.

Yes, I have no proof for any of this. Yes, it's my sastaa version of a John Le Carre novel plot.

But if Putin actually ends up getting replaced, keep a close eye on whomever replaces him. And see how they behave.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Mort Walker »

Cyrano wrote: Atmanirbhar is a good 2/3 decades away and the world will not stand still while we catch up.
It may be 20-30 years away, but by 2030 India will have a nominal $7-8T GDP.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cyrano »

Sorry by to disappoint patriotic folks here and myself but that's reality. Our Army, AF, Navy are all dependent on videshi tech, spares and support as of today. LCA can't fly without GE, Rafale without Dassault, T90/72 without Russian spares, Arjun without imports, Brahmos, Kalaveris or Arihant without foreign support. We need to seriously envisage a post-Russian world.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cyrano »

Europe will consolidate better now and start acting like a 15T economy. Demographics is a long term factor, geopolitical and commercial domination are short term necessities underpinned by strong military capability. Europe is rudely waking up to this truth after decades of ostrich behaviour.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Rudradev »

Cyrano wrote:Europe will consolidate better now and start acting like a 15T economy. Demographics is a long term factor, geopolitical and commercial domination are short term necessities underpinned by strong military capability. Europe is rudely waking up to this truth after decades of ostrich behaviour.
Very true. They thought they were still in the 1990s when the mighty invincible US would swoop in and take care of even tiny little brush-fire wars on the EU's periphery. As in the good old days of Clinton & Yugoslavia.

Trump was Rude Awakening #1.

Biden's "Saigon Redux in Kabul" was Rude Awakening #2.

The Ukraine hot mess is #3. No more pressing the snooze button.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Mort Walker »

RD,

Suggest you watch RT News on YouTube for a more balanced view. Most of the commentators are not happy with the Ukrainian invasion, but understand how it came to this. They would rather be their own change agent and not one forced by the west. However, one commentator pointed out, there are many influential people in Russia that have wealth and property in the west which are impacted by sanctions.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Cyrano »

Seeing how this is going Rudradev ji, I hope your theory is true. Europe will never trust any accord with Putin anymore. Putin as burned his credibility in one swoop with the N-menace. So they won't start by making any concessions now. In the medium term Europe will seek greater military self sufficiency wrt US and perhaps even UK.

Putin has triggered far more consequences than he ever intended or imagined.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by ramana »

The offensive of Russia and the new world
Petr Akopov

A new world is being born before our eyes. Russia's military operation in Ukraine has ushered in a new era - and in three dimensions at once. And of course, in the fourth, internal Russian. Here begins a new period both in ideology and in the very model of our socio-economic system - but this is worth talking about separately a little later.

Russia is restoring its unity - the tragedy of 1991, this terrible catastrophe in our history, its unnatural dislocation, has been overcome. Yes, at a great cost, yes, through the tragic events of a virtual civil war, because now brothers, separated by belonging to the Russian and Ukrainian armies, are still shooting at each other, but there will be no more Ukraine as anti-Russia. Russia is restoring its historical fullness, gathering the Russian world, the Russian people together - in its entirety of Great Russians, Belarusians and Little Russians. If we had abandoned this, if we had allowed the temporary division to take hold for centuries, then we would not only betray the memory of our ancestors, but would also be cursed by our descendants for allowing the disintegration of the Russian land.

Vladimir Putin has assumed, without a drop of exaggeration, a historic responsibility by deciding not to leave the solution of the Ukrainian question to future generations. After all, the need to solve it would always remain the main problem for Russia - for two key reasons. And the issue of national security, that is, the creation of anti-Russia from Ukraine and an outpost for the West to put pressure on us, is only the second most important among them.

The first would always be the complex of a divided people, the complex of national humiliation - when the Russian house first lost part of its foundation (Kiev), and then was forced to come to terms with the existence of two states, not one, but two peoples. That is, either to abandon their history, agreeing with the insane versions that "only Ukraine is the real Russia," or to gnash one's teeth helplessly, remembering the times when "we lost Ukraine." Returning Ukraine, that is, turning it back to Russia, would be more and more difficult with every decade - recoding, de-Russification of Russians and inciting Ukrainian Little Russians against Russians would gain momentum.

Now this problem is gone - Ukraine has returned to Russia. This does not mean that its statehood will be liquidated, but it will be reorganized, re-established and returned to its natural state of part of the Russian world. In what borders, in what form will the alliance with Russia be fixed (through the CSTO and the Eurasian Union or the Union State of Russia and Belarus )? This will be decided after the end is put in the history of Ukraine as anti-Russia. In any case, the period of the split of the Russian people is coming to an end.

And here begins the second dimension of the coming new era - it concerns Russia's relations with the West. Not even Russia, but the Russian world, that is, three states, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, acting in geopolitical terms as a single whole. These relations have entered a new stage - the West sees the return of Russia to its historical borders in Europe . And he is loudly indignant at this, although in the depths of his soul he must admit to himself that it could not be otherwise.

Did someone in the old European capitals, in Paris and Berlin , seriously believe that Moscow would give up Kiev ? That the Russians will forever be a divided people? And at the same time when Europe is uniting, when the German and French elites are trying to seize control of European integration from the Anglo-Saxons and assemble a united Europe? Forgetting that the unification of Europe became possible only thanks to the unification of Germany, which happened according to the good Russian (albeit not very smart) will. To swipe after that also on Russian lands is not even the height of ingratitude, but of geopolitical stupidity. The West as a whole, and even more so Europe in particular, did not have the strength to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence, and even more so to take Ukraine for itself. In order not to understand this, one had to be just geopolitical fools.

More precisely, there was only one option: to bet on the further collapse of Russia, that is, the Russian Federation. But the fact that it did not work should have been clear twenty years ago. And already fifteen years ago, after Putin's Munich speech, even the deaf could hear - Russia is returning.

Now the West is trying to punish Russia for the fact that it returned, for not justifying its plans to profit at its expense, for not allowing the expansion of the western space to the east. Seeking to punish us, the West thinks that relations with it are of vital importance to us. But this has not been the case for a long time - the world has changed, and this is well understood not only by Europeans, but also by the Anglo-Saxons who rule the West. No amount of Western pressure on Russia will lead to anything. There will be losses from the sublimation of confrontation on both sides, but Russia is ready for them morally and geopolitically. But for the West itself, an increase in the degree of confrontation incurs huge costs - and the main ones are not at all economic.

Europe, as part of the West, wanted autonomy - the German project of European integration does not make strategic sense while maintaining the Anglo-Saxon ideological, military and geopolitical control over the Old World. Yes, and it cannot be successful, because the Anglo-Saxons need a controlled Europe. But Europe needs autonomy for another reason as well — in case the States go into self-isolation (as a result of growing internal conflicts and contradictions) or focus on the Pacific region, where the geopolitical center of gravity is moving.

But the confrontation with Russia, into which the Anglo-Saxons are dragging Europe, deprives the Europeans of even the chance of independence - not to mention the fact that in the same way Europe is trying to impose a break with China . If now the Atlanticists are happy that the "Russian threat" will unite the Western bloc, then in Berlin and Paris they cannot fail to understand that, having lost hope for autonomy, the European project will simply collapse in the medium term. That is why independent-minded Europeans are now completely uninterested in building a new iron curtain on their eastern borders - realizing that it will turn into a corral for Europe. Whose century (more precisely, half a millennium) of global leadership is over in any case - but various options for its future are still possible.

Because the construction of a new world order - and this is the third dimension of current events - is accelerating, and its contours are more and more clearly visible through the spreading cover of Anglo-Saxon globalization. A multipolar world has finally become a reality - the operation in Ukraine is not capable of rallying anyone but the West against Russia. Because the rest of the world sees and understands perfectly well - this is a conflict between Russia and the West, this is a response to the geopolitical expansion of the Atlanticists, this is Russia's return of its historical space and its place in the world.

China and India , Latin America and Africa , the Islamic world and Southeast Asia - no one believes that the West leads the world order, much less sets the rules of the game. Russia has not only challenged the West, it has shown that the era of Western global domination can be considered completely and finally over. The new world will be built by all civilizations and centers of power, naturally, together with the West (united or not) - but not on its terms and not according to its rules.



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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by hnair »

Never thought Putin will trigger Europeans finally willing to siphon money off social justice causes and other virtue signaling environment-related boondoggles back to defense. But it won’t happen overnight, since appointing Karens as defense ministers seem to have become a competitive pastime among European cabinets to show their commitment to showing a finger at own nations’ patriarchy in military etc. Dont have to go much further than the once formidable Luftwaffe that dominated or defeated FOUR world powers till the nation ran out of steam is barely able to keep enough airframes airborne. End of Cold War has made everyone complacent over there.

Good news for India is that a more military focused europe is good if China lights up the world at some future juncture and they will be wary of transferring higher tech like they did in the 90s to China, for fear of the tech ending up in Russia.

Oddly enough Trump’s wish to see less US tax dollars paying for European’s defense came true thanks to Putin. Kind of puts question mark on who is who’s b!tch etc

Confusing times :lol:
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vinod »

EU is sending fighters to Ukraine.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/sta ... 0CSrQ&s=19

They are really pushing bear into a corner
Last edited by vinod on 28 Feb 2022 04:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by ricky_v »

https://meduza.io/en/live/2022/02/27/ru ... st-ukraine
Live updates on the conflict, strategic analysis and archives
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by OmkarC »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiat ... 63156.html

Could forumnites comment on the accuracy of these reports? videos on Twitter show ukrainian & even polish, romanian forces savagely beating Indian students attempting to flee Ukraine.. apparently even African students are being targeted.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Vayutuvan »

Manas wrote:
  • EU will unite militarily and will invest heavily in MIC, which actually is a good thing for U.S. tax payers and countries that want to diversify their military purchases
Biden is sending $350 million in military aid to Ukraine. Poland and Germany might skim a part of it - their commission - before passing on Javelins, Stingers, and fine Finlandia vodka for Malatove cocktails to Ukrainians.

At least in the short run, US Taxpayers - 33% of them unwillingly - are paying for Uk defense.
Manas wrote:... military might but also increase its reliance on more advanced conventional/nuclear missile systems both in terms of quantity and quality...
Manas ji, I would add Cyberwar capabilities to your list. Budgets for Cryptanalysis, Supercomputing, and Cyberdefenses should be increased by an order of magnitude.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 28 Feb 2022 05:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by SwamyG »

We need to call this "European War 2022". Though Ukraine and Russia are involved inna direct military conflict, NATO and European Union have their hands in the War pie.

https://twitter.com/GaRudan_S/status/14 ... xRlvw&s=09
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Vayutuvan »

SwamyG wrote:We need to call this "European War 2022". Though Ukraine and Russia are involved inna direct military conflict, NATO and European Union have their hands in the War pie.
Swamy G. gaaru,

Russia is in Europe too. It is an internecine fight between the white NATO and white Russia (defunct Warsaw pact with only Belarus in that pct now)
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by SwamyG »

hnair wrote:Confusing times :lol:
One thought Cold War was bad for some countries. But Uni-Polar World has been bad too. War results in peace. Peace results in War. Cycle continues.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Mort Walker »

SwamyG wrote:We need to call this "European War 2022". Though Ukraine and Russia are involved inna direct military conflict, NATO and European Union have their hands in the War pie.

https://twitter.com/GaRudan_S/status/14 ... xRlvw&s=09
Good point. I would say it started in 2014 with the killing of ethnic Russians and then Russian retaliation by taking Crimea and two regions in the east of Ukraine adjacent to Russia.

It is the 3rd major European war within 100 years with American involvement. Let’s just hope it doesn’t become WWIII.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by SwamyG »

Vayutuvan wrote: Swamy G. gaaru,

Russia is in Europe too. It is an internecine fight between the white NATO and white Russia (defunct Warsaw pact with only Belarus in that pct now)
Yes, that is what I meant. It should be called the European War. As Europe should be blamed, not just these two.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Mort Walker »

SwamyG wrote:
hnair wrote:Confusing times :lol:
One thought Cold War was bad for some countries. But Uni-Polar World has been bad too. War results in peace. Peace results in War. Cycle continues.
Kaliyug. Now just awaiting for Vishnu avatar Kalki appearing on winged white horse to wipe out the adharmics.
Vayutuvan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Vayutuvan »

Cyrano wrote: In the medium term Europe will seek greater military self sufficiency wrt US and perhaps even UK.
A united EU is not in the interest of India. If there is disunity, India can do bilateral deals. But not when they are united. They, after all, are the colonial remnants, who have great contempt for the vanquished - India and countries in Africa, Indonesia, Philippines, important countries in South America like Brazil and Argentina. The last two come with a caveat that they are pretty much European in their thinking.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by SwamyG »

Mort Walker wrote: It is the 3rd major European war within 100 years with American involvement. Let’s just hope it doesn’t become WWIII.
What is fascinating is the interest of some observers to pull in India into the chaos.

What is even more worrying is Ukraine's reaction to India abstaining, and Indian students (and other non-whites) being effectively not being allowed to exit Ukraine.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Vayutuvan »

achy wrote:I looked far and see only Japan could be that country. It was interesting to hear Abe asking US to rid its ambiguity on Taiwan just other day. Japan is our only possible long term and trusted partner.
achy saar, what about South Africa, Nigeria, and other smaller players like Kenya, Ethiopia?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by KL Dubey »

Not taking sides here, only giving objective comments.

Putin still has the upper hand. The nuclear grandstanding aside, this is the kinetic form of a mini-cold war with the west having using their cultivated proxies in Ukr over the last decade to foster instability in eastern europe. Putin has decided to solve that problem with a military solution. I think Ukr will fold in another 10 days.

If Ukr returns to the Russian orbit, then Poland will be the "frontier" country and Germany especially will be the NATO state put on the hook to defend it, since the Polish armed forces do not inspire much confidence.

As in WW-1 and WW-2, it seems the European races have not evolved beyond the desire to kill each other.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Vayutuvan »

SwamyG wrote:What is even more worrying is Ukraine's reaction to India abstaining, and Indian students (and other non-whites) being effectively not being allowed to exit Ukraine.
Probably they will be used as conscripts fighting Putin's army. They want every able-bodied man to fight for Uk. American media is praising the "nationalism" of Ukrainians. European nationalism is OK but Indian nationalism is a threat to minorities and Abrahmics in and around India.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by anupmisra »

This is an audio recording of an Indian girl stating the same thing. This is very disturbing. Jaishanker should call his Yuk-rainian counterpart and read him the riot act.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1497998682788147201
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by anupmisra »

For those of you batting for the Yuk-rainians... Raise your hands if you still think that these low-life Yuks are the "victims'.

Facing Ukrainian ire after India's UN move: Students

Stopped, Assaulted At Ukraine Border, Say Some Indian Students
Several Indian students fleeing Ukraine have alleged that they were harassed, beaten by the Ukrainian guards at the Poland border and were not allowed to cross over. In one of the videos shot during night time, a student wheeling his suitcase behind him is kicked by a guard in uniform.
Indian students are being tortured.
They are being pulled by their hair and hit with rods. Some women students have suffered fractures and injuries
Border guards are not letting us cross. If someone tries to cross, they attack them with rods.
We have been tortured like animals.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 879248.cms
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/stopped ... ts-2793334
Last edited by anupmisra on 28 Feb 2022 05:59, edited 2 times in total.
Vayutuvan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Vayutuvan »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian ... e#Aircraft

All are Russian (USSR era) aircraft.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by hnair »

Popular commentator in Malayalam channels Advocate Jayshankar narrated an allegorical bit in his YouTube commentary when he got targeted by this Kerala-commie and uber-feminist called J Devika, when he pointed out the hypocrisy of her wearing a sleeveless garment and yet loudly proclaiming her support for hijab agitation. His point was she has all the freedom to dress up how she wants but ummah women don’t and hijab is a visible symbol of that. She targeted our man calling him patriarchal etc and he smacked the ball right out of the park by narrating a story:

In Malayalam but hilarious troll. Goes like this:

In his village, two guys started a verbal fight. One called a basic gaali and the other escalated it by using an advanced ghaali. Soon a stalemate was reached when both topped out on ghaali levels. So one of the playas decided to cross a red line: he lifted his lungi. The other chap was at a grave disadvantage because he was wearing a pants. But quick thinker he is, he reached for one of the bystander guys nearby and lifted HIS lungi at his opponent

He ended the story by saying Devika is using her freedom and snug position as a kafir to bat for an oppressive dresscode of a true-believer woman.

Remembered that when I read about EU’s 500 million gift and Biden’s Javelin delivery. To me, that bystander guy seems to be Ukraine, whose lungi everyone in west is lifting to show Putin his place for lifting Russia’s own lungi. None of these guys makes any sense, watching this from India, since China Is the one who has actually been lifting more lungis of others around the world at the west and India. Iincluding Imran’s keera-lungi and Kim’s technicolor lungi
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