Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 May 2011 04:58

RamaY wrote:^ That is a good development. Imagine pakis shooting down a couple of their national birds and sending them to PRC. The next coldwar will be fought in Pakistan.

It will open good opportunities for India, if properly used.

Oh Pakis shot down F-22 long ago - but it was kept secret

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/vide ... 8048443496

jai · Post by **jai** » 20 May 2011 10:57

Sean Rowe wrote:China is helping TSP by sending a earth observation satellite

Sean, what does this mean ? Is there is a supporting link and more information ?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 May 2011 11:46

we need to start a US-China cold war theatre in Af-Pak region thread

Sean Rowe · Post by **Sean Rowe** » 20 May 2011 12:15

jai wrote:
Sean Rowe wrote:China is helping TSP by sending a earth observation satellite
Sean, what does this mean ? Is there is a supporting link and more information ?

Here is the link
http://www.ddinews.gov.in/International ... HUNDER.htm

China has agreed to immediately provide Pakistan 50 new JF-17 Thunder multi-role jets under a co-production agreement even as talks are on for more fighter aircraft including those with stealth technology.

China will immediately provide 50 JF-17 Thunder aircraft to Pakistan, an unnamed official was quoted as saying by the Dawn daily.

"We will get these planes in weeks," he said, adding that a formal agreement to that effect was likely to be signed today.

The official said Pakistan and China were already jointly producing the JF-17 aircraft, but these 50 planes would be equipped with more sophisticated avionics.

He said the war planes to be fully funded by China would help bolster Pakistan's defence and add to tactical capability of its air force.

The News daily reported that it is likely that these planes will be supplied by June next year.

It added that the two countries are also discussing the supply of Chinese J-20 stealth jets and Xiaolong/FC-1 multi-purpose light fighter aircraft to Pakistan.

They are discussing the mode of payment and the number of planes to be provided to Pakistan, the report said.

With the supply of the new fighters, Pakistan Air Force will now have a total of 260 Chinese jets, making them the mainstay of the force.

Meanwhile, in a sign of greater cooperation between the two countries, China will also launch a satellite for Pakistan on August 14.

The satellite will supply "multifarious data" to Pakistan, the report said.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, who was on a visit to China, said both sides had agreed to increase defence cooperation and China had assured Pakistan of help in enhancing the capacity of its armed forces.(ST-19/05)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 May 2011 13:30

Sean Rowe wrote: It added that the two countries are also discussing the supply of Chinese J-20 stealth jets and Xiaolong/FC-1 multi-purpose light fighter aircraft to Pakistan.

When bullshit comes, it comes in mountains

Guess what the FC-1 is otherwise called?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 May 2011 14:08

RamaY wrote:^ That is a good development. Imagine pakis shooting down a couple of their national birds and sending them to PRC. The next coldwar will be fought in Pakistan.

I don't agree Paki's can do it, remember the big pi$$ing contest few weeks back about Paki F-16 can shoot down "national birds" etc and the swift denials... if F-16 cannot do it, how can Bhandar do it?

this 50 new planes are probably ones which have already been planned, just another announcement made to safeguard H&D!!!

also a nudge to uncle to lavinsh more goodies (Rhetoric from Pentagon changed after this announcement)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 May 2011 14:14

Sean Rowe wrote: It added that the two countries are also discussing the supply of Chinese J-20 stealth jets and Xiaolong/FC-1 multi-purpose light fighter aircraft to Pakistan.

Pakis are going to induct a plane which has flown couple of sorties??? which even China has not inducted?
India is moving on MMRCA plane, so puke now want a "multi-Purpose light fighter", why not a heavy fighter and a Heavy Bomber?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 May 2011 14:27

Any possibility that the 50 odd planes that are to be flash delivered are J-10s? or J-11s?

The Pakistani pilots can't fly these two though.
It does seem like the next batch of 50 has been agreed upon.

Interesting thought: Remember how everyone, including Shiv commented on how the build quality of the JF-17 was shoddy? Are the Chinese taking back the production plant back to Chengdu or have set up a production plant there to be able to "supply pakistan in greater numbers with better quality" while also giving employment to Chinese citizens both at Kamra and Chengdu?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 May 2011 14:47

the article actually allows a year for deliveries... it could be refurbished test stock as well as new build... or its all bluster

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 May 2011 16:07

The 50 Bundaars are going to be delivered along with Kraachi's new Mag-Lev railway and worlds' tallest skyscraper.

Let me say this straight: It is the 20th of may 2011. Someone please mark this date and come and mock me on the forum and demand a public apology from me if those 50 Bundaars get delivered in 12 months. The manufacture of Bundars in Pakhanastan was started even before it was fully ready - with IIRC some aspects of flight trials to be done by Paagalstani pailots. The visit of the Bundaar to Farnborough was tomtommed as a great achievement for this reason and was meant to show the confidence they had in the airframe. The Zhuhai airshow demos were PAF Bundars from Pakhanastan - not from China.

Unless China sets up a line for Bundaars - it ain't gonna happen. Pakis have been saying for along time that they will get J-10s though.

Unfortunately for India - Pakis had no money for all this until unkil filled their coffers.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 May 2011 18:06

On the 50 Thunders

China’s Foreign Ministry said it had no information about the agreement and calls to the Defence Ministry rang unanswered.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 May 2011 21:23

SSridhar wrote:On the 50 Thunders
China and Pakistan also mutually distrust India, which China fought in a brief but bloody 1962 border war. Pakistan and India have battled three times since 1947, including in a 1999 conflict that brought the nuclear—armed neighbours to the brink of all—out war.

Chindu has exceeded it own level of China Centric reporting by this!!!! how much more will they sink!!! whose side are they on?

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 21 May 2011 00:16

China has agreed to immediately provide Pakistan 50 new JF-17 Thunder multi-role jets under a co-production agreement even as talks are on for more fighter aircraft including those with stealth technology.

China will immediately provide 50 JF-17 Thunder aircraft to Pakistan, an unnamed official was quoted as saying by the Dawn daily.

"We will get these planes in weeks," he said, adding that a formal agreement to that effect was likely to be signed today.

In fact I feel like by the time Gilani will land back in porkistan.. those will be lined up on the airport. And probably one will be parked in front of the Dawn Daily's office.

It added that the two countries are also discussing the supply of Chinese J-20 stealth jets and Xiaolong/FC-1 multi-purpose light fighter aircraft to Pakistan.

They are discussing the mode of payment and the number of planes to be provided to Pakistan, the report said.

It is good they are discussing it right now, coz by the time J-20 will enter serial production.. porkistan might not continue to exist.

Meanwhile, in a sign of greater cooperation between the two countries, China will also launch a satellite for Pakistan on August 14.

The satellite will supply "multifarious data" to Pakistan, the report said.

On a serious node, don't somebody else feels like panda is trying to develop a relation with porkis much similar to what soviets had with India! Fighters, warships and now a satellite!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 May 2011 00:25

they have been trying since the 60's. unfortunately for them china is no SU and TSP is no India.

saip · Post by **saip** » 21 May 2011 00:43

What are these Bandars? Sausages -- made of pork? For those they don't need weeks. They can ship them in days.

saip · Post by **saip** » 21 May 2011 00:51

Years ago China gave Pakis 50 FC1s (?) and they were shipped in months. If this is true, I dont understand how China can produce these so fast and ship them in months. Unless they produce them & keep them in storage just for these eventualities.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 May 2011 00:56

where on earth do you get such info ? there are not 50 JF17s on this planet, let alone in PAF.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 21 May 2011 01:06

i think it is 40 J-7's or so in a matter of months in 2001-2002. not 50 FC-1.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 May 2011 01:08

saip wrote:Years ago China gave Pakis 50 FC1s (?) and they were shipped in months. If this is true, I dont understand how China can produce these so fast and ship them in months. Unless they produce them & keep them in storage just for these eventualities.

Most likely kept in storage. So this is a planned move waiting for things to happen in south asia.
This entire plan is asian dominance and total control.

Uncle has to be part of this.

saip · Post by **saip** » 21 May 2011 01:11

I think my post did not come out right. What I meant was about a decade ago China did supply 50 mig variants very fast. These were meant to replace the older Mig variants in Paki Service. The whole thing if I remember correctly took only 12 to 18 months. Yes probably the J7s and not the FC1s.

But in the case of these Bandars I dont believe China can do the same. Pakis are bluffing and they think if they repeat the lie a few times, people will believe them. This is another case of saving their H&D.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 May 2011 04:59

FC-1 is the Cheeni designation for JF-17 Bundaar from the days when China was expected to buy 180 Bundaars. China backed out because the J-10 worked. Pakis - did their begging and China gave its whore a manufacturing plant for the FC-1/JF-17. China does not have a separate assembly line for Bundaar and I just wonder if this news means that the Porki assembly line is not working as expected and Pakis are begging China to do the manufacturing. Pakhanaland was even expected to do the export for China. (For the Chinese lurkers who don't know "Pakhana" means "Pakistan'" in many Indian languages)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 May 2011 07:37

I welcome this 50 Bandaar bakshish for the pukes, this will galvanize the babooz and St. Antony to decide on MMRCA and the IAF to order more Akash SAM squadrons. What do my fellow Rakshaks think?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 May 2011 08:40

shiv wrote:FC-1 is the Cheeni designation for JF-17 Bundaar from the days when China was expected to buy 180 Bundaars. China backed out because the J-10 worked. Pakis - did their begging and China gave its whore a manufacturing plant for the FC-1/JF-17. China does not have a separate assembly line for Bundaar and I just wonder if this news means that the Porki assembly line is not working as expected and Pakis are begging China to do the manufacturing. Pakhanaland was even expected to do the export for China. (For the Chinese lurkers who don't know "Pakhana" means "Pakistan'" in many Indian languages)

Just as a reminder. Only a reminder.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 May 2011 10:47

shiv wrote:FC-1 is the Cheeni designation for JF-17 Bundaar from the days when China was expected to buy 180 Bundaars. China backed out because the J-10 worked. Pakis - did their begging and China gave its whore a manufacturing plant for the FC-1/JF-17. China does not have a separate assembly line for Bundaar and I just wonder if this news means that the Porki assembly line is not working as expected and Pakis are begging China to do the manufacturing. Pakhanaland was even expected to do the export for China. (For the Chinese lurkers who don't know "Pakhana" means "Pakistan'" in many Indian languages)

The JF-17 assembly line in Pakistan does not build birds from ground up, but assembles them from kits provided by China.

It is similar to how HAL Nasik started assembling Su-30MKI from SKD, then moved to CKD and finally last 114 birds of 140 were to be "manufactured from raw materials".

In case of PAC Kamra, there is/was no deal with China to manufacture from raw material phase. Because China is too busines savvy to create a competitor in the low end market. That is why Gilani has to go to China. If they could build from ground up, there would have been no need to go to China.

India didn't have to go to BAe/UK when ordering 20 or 17 additional Jaguars last decade. Because the Jaguars were "manufactured from raw materials".

Lastly, even the K-8 trainers for Egypt and Bolivia went from China, not Pakistan. Pakistan only builds some parts, like HAL (or some Indian pvt sector company) builds composite canards for Su-30MKM/A. Even K-8 for Fiza'ya comes as kits.

The Chinese dont allow the Pakistani's to rise above sidekick levels.

On delivery - Chinese J-6 and J-7 and their Wopen engines were use and throw. Engine TBO was in 200-300 hours. They manufactured so many J-6 & J-7 and shipped them in exhange for resources in Africa and Asia (Laos/NK/Pakistan/Bangladesh) that their manufacturing lines have become very efficient. Like Liberty ships of WW2.

However despite that, from 2005-2010, around 14-20 JF-17 have been delivered so far, and entered service in only one squadron at Peshawar, that is performing the role of ASTE in India rather than a full fledged operational squadron. The A-5C has not been retired from Pakistani service, meaning the second squadron at Peshawar still flies A-5C and there are not sufficient numbers of JF-17 to equip the second squadron.

The 48 F-7PG/MG rapidly supplied to Pakistan in 2002 were diverted from Chinese orders, given Pakistan's nakedness post Kargil/Parakram and F-16 spares dwindled after Kargil. 2001-2 was a good time for India to go to war with Pakistan.

arun · Post by **arun** » 21 May 2011 12:10

X Posted from the TSP thread.

NDTV on a cable leaked by Wikileaks and dispatched by the US Embassy in Islamabad on the Mohammaddenisation of the Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which is leading airmen to sabotage F-16‘s involved in operations targeting Islamic Terrorists:

WikiLeaks: Pakistani airmen sabotaging F-16s

The full text of the cable is here:

Pakistan cable on visiting US officials being briefed on F-16s

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 May 2011 12:19

^^^^ Must be an excuse for not hitting taliban.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 May 2011 17:29

Chaudhry claimed to receive reports monthly of
acts of petty sabotage, which he interpreted as an effort by
Islamists amongst the enlisted ranks to prevent PAF aircraft
from being deployed in support of security operations in the
Federally Administrated Tribal Areas (FATA) along the Afghan
border.

The quote is directly from a Paki mouth( maybe trying to show the "sacrifice TSPA is making). Hence, would carry my sack of salt along when reading it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 May 2011 23:48

there was an article by a senior IAF officer on the JF17 which he saw and interacted with the crew at an air show. anyone has that article ? it was probably from vayu.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 22 May 2011 23:49

Breaking News at this hour

Karachi Airbase/Naval Base attacked by al-jehadi's

Naval Station PNS Mehran attacked , 1 P 3C Orion set on fire , Unconfirmed reports suggest 4 jets too set on ablaze ... possibly F-16's ......

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 May 2011 23:58

parshuram wrote:Breaking News at this hour

Karachi Airbase/Naval Base attacked by al-jehadi's

Naval Station PNS Mehran attacked , 1 P 3C Orion set on fire , Unconfirmed reports suggest 4 jets too set on ablaze ... possibly F-16's ......

Where is the lungi-dance icon when one needs it?

True jeehaard is on its way....AK phyrrrrrr......RPG phyrrrrr.....ans set that NATO tanker on fire!!!!!!!!!

But then knowing the rommels who inhabit the dark-rooms of Pindi HQ....this could be the attempt to create anti-Osama event to nullify some what the blow-black from osama raid. And how convinient to ensure that PN Air base gets hit....the khakis again sacrifice someone else to in the name of paksatanstan. After all, what is P-3 Orion in the name of najariya-e-pakistan. Uncle has enough of them to make-up for the loss.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 23 May 2011 00:04

parshuram wrote:Breaking News at this hour

Karachi Airbase/Naval Base attacked by al-jehadi's

Naval Station PNS Mehran attacked , 1 P 3C Orion set on fire , Unconfirmed reports suggest 4 jets too set on ablaze ... possibly F-16's ......

TV news dont mention about the P3C Orion. Some channels are providing unconfirmed reports of 1 choppers damaged.
I am still browsing for more comprehensive report. Probably will get the clear picture in the morning.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 May 2011 00:07

AOA! This is a glorious day!

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 23 May 2011 00:09

Avinandan wrote:
parshuram wrote:Breaking News at this hour

Karachi Airbase/Naval Base attacked by al-jehadi's

Naval Station PNS Mehran attacked , 1 P 3C Orion set on fire , Unconfirmed reports suggest 4 jets too set on ablaze ... possibly F-16's ......
TV news dont mention about the P3C Orion. Some channels are providing unconfirmed reports of 1 choppers damaged.
I am still browsing for more comprehensive report. Probably will get the clear picture in the morning.

NDTV is ..... Infact a pakistani correspondent is speaking it .... tune into it u might be lucky

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 May 2011 00:14

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13495127

Militants have attacked a Pakistani air base in Karachi, the country's largest city, police say.

Explosions and gunshots were heard as the attackers fought with troops at the Mehran naval aviation base. There are reports of casualties.

Eyewitnesses say black smoke is billowing from the base.

Militants in Pakistan have vowed to avenge the killing of Osama Bin Laden by US special forces on 2 May, and have carried out several attacks since then.

"It's a terrorist attack. More than 10 terrorists are inside," provincial home ministry official Sharfuddin Memon told AFP news agency.

"One of the four aircraft inside the premises has been damaged," he added.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 23 May 2011 00:23

Rahul M wrote:there was an article by a senior IAF officer on the JF17 which he saw and interacted with the crew at an air show. anyone has that article ? it was probably from
vayu.

"JF-17 Not As Advanced As LCA, But It Can Drop Bombs" : Nawaz Sharif

Clicky

Air Cmde (Retd) Parvez H Khokhar served as India's Air Advisor in Pakistan and is also former Project Director (Flight Test) on the Light Combat Aircraft programme

Copyright & Courtesy Vayu

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 23 May 2011 00:23

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 23 May 2011 00:25

Link says it all
link

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 23 May 2011 00:27

Juggi, don't want to spoil your moment, but we don't need Nawaz Sharif to tell us Tejas is better than Bandar.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 May 2011 00:41

Juggi G, thank you ji !

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 23 May 2011 01:06

Is it just me or is it really hilarious that one arm of the Pak govt (ISI) fighting with the other arm (Navy Commandos). Poor lives at stake over this, apparently, political gambit!

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/terro ... chi-107558