Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 20 Nov 2009 21:12

Sanku wrote:Bji, Chiron, Prem and others.

I suppose we are solidly in one corner of the ring in our opinions and reading of the situation.

I do however feel that now is different from ever before, the NI belt has, for the first time in history after nearly 700 years of servitude finally seen independence for 60 years. Something which never happened even during the Maratha and Khalsa ascendancy.

It has fundamentally changed the situation -- we have seen one effect -- in 90s.

It would be too pessimistic to assume that all the forces that were unleashed at that point for reclaiming India for Indians and Indian heritage are wasted or spent too early.

Why does the "Man" need to come from the Elite, he/she will not -- it will be a Mayawati/Lalu like figure, NI politics has been toying with that prototype for a while (Modi, Kalyan Singh, Nitish Kumar, Mayawati) without hitting "the" person.

May be next iteration in 10-20 years? Triggered by the very inimical forces mentioned so far.

No Sanku ji,

The demand will never be for partition and independent country. It is mostly probably for a new state. No one in print-media has balls to demand India's partition as of now. However, since many forces are demanding new states (gorkha-land, vidarbha, telangana, and few others), this is one more demand towards it. A new state which inherently has the religious centres of Islam in India and considerably Muslim population. Reminds me of Vanga-Bhanga (1905)... When east bengal was created out for "Administrative efficiency"

...

The Maratha movement profoundly influenced NI Gangetic plains (especially UP). All the important temples which you see today in NI are rebuilt by Marathas, all of them since they were destroyed by zealot Aurangzeb a generation ago. Yet, when Marathas were about to demolish the mosque at Varanasi which is built on the actual site of Vishveshwara temple, the brahmins of Kashi pleaded Peshwas not to destroy the mosques and hurt the religious sentiments of Muslims. Similar things happened in Prayag and Mathura. Marathas expected Muslim opposition, but that was taken care of in battle-field. This opposition from Kashi brahmins was totally unexpected. hence, all the new temples were built along side the mosques which stand on the original temple sites. This just shows the amount of "Dhimmitude" ingrained upon people of NI Gangetic plains.

Marathas held Punjab (until attock and peshawar) only for 18 months, yet it was enough for sikhs to rally and rise in the vacuum of power in Punjab after Panipat. Marathas occupied and influenced NI-Gangetic politics for more than 40-50 years at a stretch, in spite of that, nothing happened. I wish by now, the sanskaars of Dhimmitude are loosened enough and waiting for final nudge to break-open.

One more thing, why are all the elites hailing from this region? What is the reason that all the elite institutions of Islamic studies are located in this region. The reason is that it is close to Delhi and Agra, the cities which were capitals of India during Islamic times. The "Deen" and "Daulat" (religion and state) cannot be segregated in Islam. Thus, centres of Deen are always located near epicentres of "Daulat".

@AbhiG,

I am working on this article and idea on my blog-article. I will put the link as soon as I draft it.. The mercantile and mercenary character of North-Indian politics.. Just give me some time..

Pranav wrote:A new Green Pradesh attracting legions of illegal Bangladeshis is a nightmare scenario. The shameless treachery of our politicians is mind-boggling.

Astute observation. Hence I said, if in case this materializes, I am curious about behaviour of Bengali Muslims. I always feel that the Mukti-Bahini and Bangladesh movement was less motivated by language and more by boorish pakjabi attitude and their denial of power. I may be wrong, but I feel that pride for Bangla language was not the first thing that ignited the spark. It later acted as a compounding factor, but I do not think it was the initiator. Given the status of Urdu as second arabic (in terms of holiness) in India, it will be indeed very important to observe the trend of bengali OR Bangladeshi muslims.

Pseudosecularism works only if there is one dominant power. when there are competing power-suitors who are Pseudo-secularists, then the escalation has to cross all the limits. This is exactly what has happened to SP under Mullah Mulayam and Mullah Amar singh. The path they have chosen, it can only lead to a situation when SP becomes Muslim-league of 1940. It is important that they are finished off before. The mistake done by INC of giving up the hard-earned power of 1937 elections by resigning in 1939 should not be repeated again.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Nov 2009 22:41

MJ Akbar's father was a Bihari Hindu who was adopted by a childless Muslim couple. Will have to check what Ziauddin Barrani says about Azlaf-Ashraf status of adopted Hindu child

grand father.
converted in adulthood to facilitate marriage.

In this entire analysis the stand of the sikhs of Punjab is the key.

if the khalsa can forgive and forget 1984, there is no chance of any ISI-PLA-CIA- her majesty's govt doing anything.

if they can't and say that being monotheists their mazhab is closer to Islam, then there might be something. otherwise there is no contest.

I have seen both instances of course.

I came across a couple of amrit dhari sikhs in a lakshmi temple who said that dharma would prevail.
I also have a friend who lives near the green park gurudwara in delhi who insists that sikhism's monotheism is closer to Islam. take your pick.

either way northern india is not as unstable as the future strategic scenario thread is making it out to be.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Nov 2009 22:43

As far as bengali muslims are concerned for the most part they remain durga puja celebrating polytheists.

The BD muslims are of course a different matter.

to put the matter of this "harit pradesh" business in perspective the map I am uploading may prove helpful. it gives the percentage of hindu population in india by district.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... uism11.png

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 20 Nov 2009 22:50

D Roy wrote:either way northern india is not as unstable as the future strategic scenario thread is making it out to be.

Its more about the Ganga-Yamuna doab than entire north. Punjab falls in Indus basin and not Gangetic plains, totally different dynamic altogether there. Furthermore,it is not the instability per se, but the deeply ingrained status-quo in Indics there, that is the concern. This particular region (of upper doab) has shown this tendency whenever centre at Delhi grows weaker. The fear is about repetition of this trend from elite of that region and sell-out of local politicians to preserve their existence one day more by legitimizing the silent rumblings of the elite here. Slight instability will actually help there..

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 20 Nov 2009 22:52

WRT the threats faced by NI from inimical forces, want to make a few points to note-

1) the leaders of independent India are all products of partiton/nehru/gandhi influence etc- hence more amenable to peace/dhimmitude. Nehru/Shastri/Indira Gandhi/Moraji Desai/ABV/PVN/VP Singh and MMS now.
Ahimsa/non violence works best with people who have a belief in humanism not with barbarians. Now it is practised by self professed gandhians who do it to all sorts of people. Hence we are defensive.Non violence brought us freedom but it is the violence(armed forces) which keeps our freedom intact.
Rajiv Gandhi was the youngest PM and his ideas were at least bright for India. He saw things differently and wanted India to progress, made some concrete steps towards it. At least he projected Indian power positively. (IPKF maldives, trying to be superpower ideas etc. to the aam junta) .

With increasing time more younger Indian leaders far removed from the independence , more in tune with current geopolitical situation might see the light. They might make appropriate adjustments and steer NI towards greater stablity.
Also the younger gen are more vocal and more aggressive than the past gen. Ideas are generated with more openness and creativity. it just requires a spark to light the fires.

2) The inimical forces also change during these times. It is not static.PRC-USA-TSP etc also change. All 3 are not what they were before- say a decade earlier. USA power is declining along with it the soft power that comes it- money to NGOs, evangelisation. so also whites losing interest in religion with declining birth rates. PRC- not sure whether it is going to be next superpower. It is dependent on west for sustaining itself economically. It may or may not make it. it also has unrest inside. Lot of its deals with foreign nations in africa/asia are with despotic regimes for oil and resources. Long term advantages are unknown at present.TSP is spiralling downwards rapidly. USA-PRC may not be able to control it effectively as pakitalibs may become immune to them.

3) There are fault lines in all the above - they have to be exploited to make it advantageous to us.

The whole thing is like a wheel- what goes up comes down and vice versa.
JMTs.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Nov 2009 22:54

It is possible that one of the reasons, the Deobandis have started to up their ante now is because they feel the "removal of dhimmitude" that Sankuji is referring to. This could be more dangerous for them than the initial wave of the BJP/VHP. Then it was easier to tackle it because INC/SP and other various shades of "socialists" and Communists joined over wholeheartedly in the Islamic cause. With the retreat of the leftists, and weakening of the SP and rather uncertain future of Mayavati and Laloo, the Deobandi Ulema are no longer sure of the long term prospects of Islamization of the North.

The other possible reason, is that they think that now at this time point, INC is not in a position by which INC can oppose or criticize any overt programme of Islamization and growth of political Islam. Even a cautious and cool-headed PC stepped into the trap of being seen in the same podium with orthodox Wahabi revivalists of Deoband. Since INC has officially carried the electorate with it, this is the window of opportunity for the whole spectrum of "western" and "Islamist" interests to force the INC to allow them their targets - the electoral success of the INC will guarantee self-delusion and international propaganda about legitimacy of such targets. The very success of INC electorally and the apparent retreat of the BJP and allies, could be accelerating this process.

I am also not sure about the impact of the meme of 2012 and "ghazwa-e-Hind", among the Deobandis, which I try track. My general impression from sources is that it is a tool that is sometimes used fro propaganda. But they are clever enough to realize that fixing a particular date can be counterproductive and potentially disastrous. So the "ghazwa" meme perhaps has more impact.

However, the overall impression is that they are coordinating with something - some organization, or some inner timeline and programme, to revive political Islam as a fighting force on India.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Nov 2009 23:03

As far as Bengali Muslims are concerned, what D Roy says is mostly true. However there are core pockets of "islamism", and they have actually increased under Leftist rule. The three main centres are in a certain area of Kolkata, (The Park Circus navel - with offshoot in the Rajabazaar ghetto), vast tracts of Murshidabad and the southern tip of Malda, and the south-centre in Ghutiari and Furfura Sharif. The mobilization against Tasleema shocked and surprised the Leftist mandarins, but it was partly they themselves and other processes that ensured thatthings have changed from the older "peaceful co-participation" stages. One of my key differences with the "bosses' was exactly about my observation and prediction that Islamism will gain strength exactly in the areas where communists were apparently string among Muslim majority areas. I had intimately mixed and worked with people in those areas during my stint. And my first realizations of the futility of Marxist analysis and policies when it comes to dealing with the ME theologies, dawned there.

The "cultured/educated" muslims that Roy ji refers to, are a minuscule proportion - and many privately express fear and helplessness in being able to stand against the resurgent Mullahcracy. Even the "cultured/educated" muslim in BD before partition or during '71 were not always able to openly defy the Islamists in defence of non-Muslims. Some covertly helped Hindus to escape, but most chose to take advantage of opportunities the Quranic exhortation for looting/raping/woman-snatching ghazwas afforded - on the very Hindus, whose "Durga Pujas" they once participated in.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Nov 2009 23:04

Delhi is expanding as much in the direction of Lucknow as in the direction of Haldwani.
There are huge economic forces at work and the reason for the kangress win is pure largesse.

Any Salaariat breakout if actually envisaged would simply be to corner the fruits of the economic growth which is happening in the area.

Any attempted revival of so called political islam in India can only be designed to get freebies through rabble rousing.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Nov 2009 23:07

what BrihaspatiJi has said about what happened in BD in 71 is of course a very sad chapter in Bharat's history.

But then mobs always use the cover of religosity to steal.
However the areas of Kolkata that he mentioned are populated not by Bengali muslims but Bihari muslims originally from

Mithila in the East and Siwan in the west.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Nov 2009 23:10

Whatever the thinking, we should thank MJ for letting the Rat out of the Bag . If the Harit (Green) Pradesh panga is true then it l proves that Kutte ki Poonch cannot be straighten up. Here is a chance for Mayawati to show her metal and change the ground situation using her muscle power. This will propel her at the National stage as she will earn the gratitude of millions. Uncle-Chinkil,Pukes (LE,AQ ETC), Rats,MJ,EJ,Deobandis,SIMI, Secularists,NGOS are all cogs in the wheel to turn the tide back to 17th century. India's salvation lies in young Indic generation and all the efforts in gathering this critical mass are being thwarted in co-ordinated way by above mentioned moves from oustside as much energy is and will be wasted in removing these obstacles. Its war out there .

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Nov 2009 23:15

Going through several Islamic websites, there seems to an anticipation of this great battle against the infidels of the east - Hindus. Ghazwa-e-hind as they call it. Across multiple websites.
The believers are being told to prepare for the final showdown. They are building up to something

just an example
http://www.whoisdajjal.com/index.htm

Can someone shed some light on what these guys future worldview is? Seems like they have also latched on to the 2012 bandwagon

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 20 Nov 2009 23:17

D Roy wrote:Delhi is expanding as much in the direction of Lucknow as in the direction of Haldwani.
There are huge economic forces at work and the reason for the kangress win is pure largesse.

Any Salaariat breakout if actually envisaged would simply be to corner the fruits of the economic growth which is happening in the area.

Any attempted revival of so called political islam in India can only be designed to get freebies through rabble rousing.

Precisely, D Roy ji...

The Deen cannot live without "Daulat". Every instance which led to a political move by elite of this region was preceded by loosening of their grip over economic moolah. Rise of Waliullah, subsequent invitation of Abdali, participation in 1857, demand for partition everything is for usurping political power and economic benefits that come after it. The Salaariat which left for Pakistan, today are the nawabs of Lahore and Pindi. They cannot forgo the economic pleasures which accompany the political clout. They primarily rose out of war-trading during Mughal-Maratha war of late 1600's.

The unique thing about modern times is that, the Salaariat was largely dismantled and displaced during partition. Pseudo-secularists kept abdul mollified and appeased. This rise of new Salaariat is somewhat novel in itself, as it did not rise from the ashes of old. The "de novo" character in modern Salaariat is quite higher.

The economic forces are indeed very stronger, but may act as double-edged sword. The growth of Delhi needs to be carefully tailored and planned, just like growth of Bhopal, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad was planned to increase the influx and break the ghettos as Pranav ji pointed out.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Nov 2009 23:22

Actually there is population resettlement in Delhi (illegal BD's). Also Sheila Dixits daughter in law is a convert married to an Ashraf Maulana.
There is this whole thing of being close to centers of power and married into power. We see that in India and UK.
Funnily, US is still not affected in that way

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Nov 2009 23:25

brihaspati wrote:
I am also not sure about the impact of the meme of 2012
However, the overall impression is that they are coordinating with something - some organization, or some inner timeline and programme, to revive political Islam as a fighting force on India.

From my analysis of 2012 propaganda is that it is a plan for global fragmentation inflicted to create change and exploit nations. It can take many forms and encourages any group take control. Out of that anarchy powerful countries can rebuild a new order.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Nov 2009 23:26

Chiron Ji,

The current thinking at the centre does not seem to be in favour of small states anymore.

And Lucknow will certainly not give up its richest disrtricts a la jharkhand. whoever does that is politically finished in the remainder.

what is going to happen is that people will consolidate around a single large national party - that will change from time to time depending on who shows leadership stability and all salariat type forces will get marginalised because the sekoolar will have the majority vitebank anyway.

we should not forget that the shilanyaas.. happened after the biggest mandate in Indian electoral history.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2009 23:28

Jarita wrote:Actually there is population resettlement in Delhi (illegal BD's). Also Sheila Dixits daughter in law is a convert married to an Ashraf Maulana.
There is this whole thing of being close to centers of power and married into power. We see that in India and UK.
Funnily, US is still not affected in that way

Really! You need to check Holbrooke and a lot of others.
Marrying to be close to power is an old tactic.
The tactic goes back to Pharoh's times.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 20 Nov 2009 23:29

Acharya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
I am also not sure about the impact of the meme of 2012
However, the overall impression is that they are coordinating with something - some organization, or some inner timeline and programme, to revive political Islam as a fighting force on India.
From my analysis of 2012 propaganda is that it is a plan for global fragmentation inflicted to create change and exploit nations. It can take many forms and encourages any group take control. Out of that anarchy powerful countries can rebuild a new order.

I guess Bhaarat has APJ's 2020 meme which is very popular now and penetrated to grass-root level as compared to 2012, which is more superficial and limited to certain small section of NRI's and urban net-savvys of India. I don't think 2012 meme will impact India more.

Anyways, the apocalypse memes are useless in Indic context, which says that universe has been destroyed and regenerated 27 times before this version of universe.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Nov 2009 23:29

what is 2012 hain?

we are in the 28th kalyug of the 7th manvantara ( Vaivasvata) of the Sveta Varaha Kalpa.

Paah I never admit such silly thoughts,

The world has a lot of bullshit left yet.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Nov 2009 23:33

ramana wrote:
Jarita wrote:Actually there is population resettlement in Delhi (illegal BD's). Also Sheila Dixits daughter in law is a convert married to an Ashraf Maulana.
There is this whole thing of being close to centers of power and married into power. We see that in India and UK.
Funnily, US is still not affected in that way
Really! You need to check Holbrooke and a lot of others.
Marrying to be close to power is an old tactic.
The tactic goes back to Pharoh's times.

Ramana I am specifically ref. to a certain communities tactics as a society. I had mentioned elsewhere that a lot of lips are sealed in the house of lords because of the relationships of their daughters and nieces etc with men of a certain ideology.
That infilteration has not happened with US elite as yet

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Nov 2009 23:36

D Roy wrote:what is 2012 hain?

we are in the 28th kalyug of the 7th manvantara ( Vaivasvata) of the Sveta Varaha Kalpa.

Paah I never admit such silly thoughts,

The world has a lot of bullshit left yet.

The problem is that if a large prop of humanity believes that something will happen, something may end up happening. It can also be contrued as expectation setting. There is a massive build up to 2012. Why? The whole Ghazwa e Hind and couple of other predictions are based upon this.
Some events are being orchestrated and there is a build up to generate expectation and action

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 20 Nov 2009 23:37

From my analysis of 2012 propaganda is that it is a plan for global fragmentation inflicted to create change and exploit nations.

Also, to scare the people to make them see the light of "One True God and his Son".

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Nov 2009 23:42

D Roy ji,
I personally have looked into this 2012 thing from a variety of angles, and I do not even find the "theory" justifying it (if you call them theory). However what I meant is the use of the idea to influence and align people to becoming more receptive to desired outcomes. You will notice, thats ometime ago even a noted defence columnist chose 2012 as the year/"the latest time of occurrence" of likely PRC attack on India. I am not a 2012/"ghazwa-e-Hind" prophecy subscriber, but many among the Islamists appear to be falling for it. Thats all.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2009 23:50

Jupiterji, Isnt it odd that every end of millenium the Church goes into paroxysms and predicts the end of the world to gather/rally the faithul. the secualar Modern world is latching on to the Mayan /heathen end of calender as a re-assertion of the old meme despite the apparent advances of the Enlightenment etc.

So what exactly is the Church's fear?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 20 Nov 2009 23:58

The EJ fear is the same as the Jihaadi fear.

without state power they can't influence anybody really.

Now they find that even the sociology project is coming unstuck due to popular new age culture.

So the only thing they think can be done is to latch on to messianic prophecies based on very loose ( make that very very loose) revisionism.

Bharath.Subramanyam · Post by **Bharath.Subramanyam** » 21 Nov 2009 01:44

Brihaspati ji,

See the article by Swapan Dasgupta on Bengal politics & its future (http://bit.ly/6y9rlf)
(http://www.tehelka.com/story_main43.asp ... evenge.asp)

Do you think a big anarchy (Maoist + Jihadi + CPM violence) is possible in West Bengal in the near future? What is your take on Swapan's diagnosis? As Bengal is the gateway to NE, anarchy in Bengal might help China for its strategic goals.

Not about to understand why very fertile regions like Bihar (not Jharkhand) , Bengal have leftist mindset. By traditional wisdom one should expect Leftist mindset in water starved regions like Gujarat, Rajasthan, Vidarbha.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2009 01:51

Its about land holdings in that region.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 21 Nov 2009 06:10

Folks
How much do you believe these moves by deoband - VM, Hari pradseh etc are prompted by the anarchy in Pakistan? The destruction of one center of power

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Nov 2009 06:34

Jarita,
Are you saying one Pakistan is gone, so try to make alternative one ? There is something real sinister in MJ's article. What he is saying is IM were looking forward to the success of Paki experiment and now its a failure , they will try experimentation within India . Food and Faith, not faithfulness to the land is the main concern. Paki and Chinesse have fired the shots from outside and now he has initiated the process from Inside . Haramiwaiz going to China is part of the same game plan. Hope this finish the PS game for ever .

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Nov 2009 06:59

ramanaji,
I think the whole claim of legitimacy in the JCM (Judaeo-Christian-Islamic) tradition is based on claims of promises/revelations made in the past about the future. This is why, prophecying is so much an inherent obsession. Prophecying replaces and usurps the previous cultural obsessions with predicting the future - which JCM has to paint as evil and decadent. Also a thousand seems to be the largest number typically used or imaginable in the European mindset prior to advent of Indian mathematics through the Muslims. So a thousand years probably stood for the largest period imaginable/acceptable in the public imagination. Hence the millenial obsessions.

But this time around, the neo-paganism in the west, masquerading as "secular", seems to be hugely taking on this prophecy nuttery.

But it could be pushed through by more sinister thinking based on agenda ad a means of psychologically preparing the public imagination.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Nov 2009 07:10

Bharathji,
I have many times written on this forum pointing out the essentially "subversive" nature of Bengali political thinking. I think I was the only one who thought before the LS elections that MB could be hugely supported by the electorate, once they were assured that MB was hooked up with a stable gov at the centre which will be able to neutralize the CPIM backlash. They did it in the late 60's and again '77. I was tiny then, but I remember how as a tot I saw bombs being thrown at a certain booth, and my parents still determined to go out and vote. He was highly respected by the Cong in the region (because of his pre-47 exploits but he was then an active socialist) so they stopped bombing when he went, but asked him to leave quickly as they did not want people to vote. The Congress candidate lost by a huge margin.

People forget how Midnapore, which suffered horribly carrying out the 42 movement, turned around to become one of the first bastions of the Left.

I have tried to give a theory before of the influence of geography on ideology and politics -especially wrt areas like Bengal. But you have thrown up a much more complex question. I think I had predicted about the Jihadi+Maoist infiltration and taking cover under MB before. I had warned that the fall of the "Left" should not be seen as a source of unadulterated joy as the space would be occupied by Jihadis and Maoists to agreta extent.

I will try to recall what I had written and summatrize what I think will the basic trend be.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 21 Nov 2009 07:12

Prem wrote:Jarita,
Are you saying one Pakistan is gone, so try to make alternative one ? There is something real sinister in MJ's article. What he is saying is IM were looking forward to the success of Paki experiment and now its a failure , they will try experimentation within India . Food and Faith, not faithfulness to the land is the main concern. Paki and Chinesse have fired the shots from outside and now he has initiated the process from Inside . Haramiwaiz going to China is part of the same game plan. Hope this finish the PS game for ever .

Yup. The center of power is collapsing. Need to create another one and the time is ripe. There are too many things happening within the country to ignore
- VM fatwa
- Harit Pradesh
- Love Jihad e.g., Tipping point in Bollywood i.e., A movie released recently with muslim male protag. and hindu female protag (saif and kareena) where the male is a suicide bomber and of course sympathy for suicide bomber. This might not be a big thing but recall that immediately after independ the muslim actors had to have hindu names i.e., Dileep k etc. It has come full circle now. Going back to old status quo when M male had right over unbeliever female

I think they are testing the waters with all the above. It is going to a gradual thing. Any vehement objection and they will backtrack. next time the objection will not be so vehement and so on and so forth till they have other advantages. It's like loosening the screw.
Need to nip all these the bud such that whichever faction is involved is crippled

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Nov 2009 08:58

Jarita wrote:I know some of the folks will be pissed off but can anyone verify if Subramanyam Swamis assertions on Antonia Maino are accurate or not?

They could be ... but the implications are not clear. Sonia was allegedly on KGB payroll, and she apparently still has a friendly relationship with Putin. Apparently, she had once used Moscow as a venue to meet with Quattrochi.

Now Putin & Co have a major feud with the Western oligarchs, who were backing folks like Berezovsky and Khodorovsky to take over Russian natural resources in the Yeltsin era. But again there are complications, because the original Bolshevik revolution was sponsored by Western oligarchs, and even today there is some kind of modus vivendi between the Russians and the Western elites.

Another data point is an ad published a few years back by some Hindu group in the NY Times, making allegations about Sonia's Swiss bank accounts. The ad was timed to coincide with a visit by Sonia to the US. Apparently the advertisers were given a good deal by the NY Times.

All this points to a certain chilliness between Sonia and Western oligarchs. Recent Indian policies (such as backing the Sri Lankan govt against the LTTE) also show that there is a degree of independence from the West.

On the other hand, we have had Miliband (very much part of Western oligarchy) spending nights with Rahul Baba in Kalavati's hut.

So the signals are mixed and I don't think any definitive conclusion can be drawn.

As regards the BJP - they have been taking disastrous steps like allowing foreign ownership in media, introducing electronic voting. So there have been major problems in the BJP too, but I am hopeful that Mohan Bhagwat will be able to clean things up there.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Nov 2009 09:27

Prem wrote
Jarita,
Are you saying one Pakistan is gone, so try to make alternative one ?

Who says Pakistan is gone? You have to look at success/failure from the viewpoint of Islamism. In terms of Islamism, Pakistan has succeeded. It has managed to embroil the Christians in a fruitless war that will ultimately force the Christian west to retreat in humiliation. It has managed to force that very same Christian west to pay for its gradual Jihadi expansionist agenda. It has managed to tie up India. It now can play around and bargain with both PRC and USA.

The apparent strife faced by the civilian gov of TSP, should not be seen as a retreat of Islamism. It actually represents the successful expansion plan of Talebjabi+TSPA+ISI and the their backers in KSA, or PRC, and perhaps influential sections even in the "West".

The Deobandi assertion could be coordinated with the perceptions in appropriate levels within the Jihadi expansion section of the TSP establishment. This could be a gradual preparation aimed at coordinating or utilizing the opportunities that the Jihadis in TSP think will arise in the near future.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 21 Nov 2009 09:38

Who says Pakistan is gone? You have to look at success/failure from the viewpoint of Islamism. In terms of Islamism, Pakistan has succeeded.

Sadly, I have to agree with this assessment. TSP has suck-seeded and spectacularly at that. It was always about ideological frontiers, IMO.

At 1 time, I did have a fond hope that the tools - intellectual, political, societal and military - of tackling the jihadist expansionism will be developed and deployed first in and by the west. But the quagmire of Iraq and Afg'n proves beyond doubt, the free world doesn't even begin to understand the nature of what they are up against. Expectations that they will wake up before it is too late remain mere hopes now, and fading ones at that.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 21 Nov 2009 09:55

Battle of Bahraich - 14th June 1033

Chiron wrote:The nephew of Mahmood Gazni, known as Masud Gazni, invaded India with army of more than 100,000 men in may 1031 AD. This time, the army was not a raiding party like that of Mahmood who came with intention of raiding, looting and retreating with the loot to Afghanistan. They were backed by the imperial army Persian empire and came here with the intention of permanent conquest and Islamization of India.

King Anandpal Shahi tried to check this Gazni advance towards heartland of India. He was helped by king of Sialkot, Rai Arjun. But, this alliance was overwhelmed by superiority of numbers of Pathan army. After defeating Anandpal Shahi and Rai Arjun, Masood advanced towards towards Malwa and Gujarat. King Mahipal Tomara tried to check their advance here but was defeated too.

After victories across North Indian plains, Masood Gazni settled at Bahraich near Lucknow. He stayed here up to mid 1033.

Meanwhile, 17 Rajput Kings of north India forged an alliance. This is biggest confederation that have ever existed in India. The head of this confederation was Raja Sukhdev, a Gurjara-Rajput King. It would be interesting to know how the alliance was forged and how was the game of chess played before the final showdown on 14th June. However, I have not come across any books which deals with this part of History in detail.

In June 1033, as per Hindu traditions, Masood Gazni was intimated by Rajput confederation that the land belonged to Rajputs and Hindus and Masood should evacuate these lands. Masood replied that all land belongs to Khuda and hence he would not retreat.

On 13th June, Morning, Rajput army of about 120,000 descended on Gazni camp of Bahraich. Masood's army was completely besieged and encircled. The battle continued for hours. In the end, each and every man in Masood's camp was killed. No POW's were taken, no mercy was shown on the Afghan army. The location of this battle to be precise was near Chittaura Jheel, a lake about 8 KM away from modern Bahraich on Bahraich-Gond Road. The battle ended on 14th June with Victory of Raja Sukhdev and his Rajput alliance.

The invasion was completely crushed and such resounding was this victory that none of the king from Northwest dared to invade India for 160 years..

This is one of the golden pages of Indian History. India is indebted to series of Rajput Kings along the western border of India and in Central India. They were extremely instrumental in keeping Arab invaders at bay for 3 centuries. This was the time when Arabs were at their zenith. The Khilafat extended from Western Sindh to Spain.. However, they could not defeat Rajputs and enter Indian heartlands.

One instance when this meme was successfully buried in the fields of the very doab we are concerned with...

Could history be repeating itself?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Nov 2009 10:22

Chiron wrote:Battle of Bahraich - 14th June 1033

One instance when this meme was successfully buried in the fields of the very doab we are concerned with...

Could history be repeating itself?

Good but not good enough. The confederation forces should have gone to Ghazni and slaughtered every man there.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 21 Nov 2009 10:50

Pranav wrote:
Chiron wrote:Battle of Bahraich - 14th June 1033

One instance when this meme was successfully buried in the fields of the very doab we are concerned with...

Could history be repeating itself?
Good but not good enough. The confederation forces should have gone to Ghazni and slaughtered every man there.

But the best thing would have been to send a few hundred men to simply block and guard the narrow mountain passes through which all these raiders and armies came through. Talk about asymmetrical warfare. A few dozen men guarding these narrow passes could have decimated entire armies who dared to pass through these passes. It amazes me that no king in India at that time thought of this despite the fact that there has been a consistent and clear history of invasions through these passes even before Islamic entry.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 21 Nov 2009 11:20

Dhiman wrote:But the best thing would have been to send a few hundred men to simply block and guard the narrow mountain passes through which all these raiders and armies came through. Talk about asymmetrical warfare. A few dozen men guarding these narrow passes could have decimated entire armies who dared to pass through these passes. It amazes me that no king in India at that time thought of this despite the fact that there has been a consistent and clear history of invasions through these passes even before Islamic entry.

India was not politically united at that occasion.. In fact, all the occasions when india was invaded from central asia, the NI plains were not at all politically consolidated. In presence of strong central power in NI plains, the invasions were impossible..

The fact that the net invasions on India have been very less as compared to the potential, proves the fact that the kings in NWFP were by and large successful in repelling off the central asian invaders on most of the occasions..

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Nov 2009 21:04

Probably need to look at various factors togther. The point about mountain passes etc, can be looked into from the surviving fragments of narratives about the campaigns of Jaipal and Anandapala.

The entite period from 500-1200 CE, was subjected to several climatic disasters, some centuries wide. The first intense period starts around 500 and lasts till 850 - primarily droughts. Large settled societies where the rashtra/king has responsibility to ensure food and security to a large populations will find themselves vulenrable to persistent harassing attacks by nomadic bands solely formed with the aim of looting and raping.

The upper reaches of current Pakjab and the TA to the north would be specifically vulnerable to mega-droughts. (These areas were affected strongly when global mega-droughts happened in geological records).

To maintain advanced posts capable of militarily tackling invading forces in the mountain passes would require a high degree of resources which a small kingdom might not have been able to maintain.

These are the historical lessons as to why myriad identities are potentially dangerous - for each has the potential to claim separate rashtra and divide up the society's capacity to fight back in times of scarcity.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Nov 2009 02:37

Pranav wrote:
Chiron wrote:Battle of Bahraich - 14th June 1033

One instance when this meme was successfully buried in the fields of the very doab we are concerned with...

Could history be repeating itself?
Good but not good enough. The confederation forces should have gone to Ghazni and slaughtered every man there.

Prooves huge standing army is must for India . Inshallah , once we cross 5T GDP, there shall be many millions more under arm to finish the job.