Posted: 08 Apr 2007 23:33
Just in case, welcome to Hell.TSJones wrote:I'm not so sure about me going to heaven
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Just in case, welcome to Hell.TSJones wrote:I'm not so sure about me going to heaven
Hi Shiv,shiv wrote:Hoysala Karnatakas
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/cy ... yskar1.jpg
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in light of such doubt, say 1 million Mary Poppins ...TSJones wrote:I'm not so sure about me going to heaven ...
So all the stuff you learnt about Penzias came from Readers Digest?TSJones wrote:
nice google, but it ain't Arno
I don't have to google to know about Arno Penzias and cosmic back ground radiation. I subscribe to the Reader's Digest.
a "put down" is different from a "lie" ... you have been lying in your trolling ...TSJones wrote:Pot calling the kettle black. It seems to me you have been doing more than your fair share of trolling and put downs.
Hot and stuffy!sivab wrote:Just in case, welcome to Hell.TSJones wrote:I'm not so sure about me going to heaven
TSJ, what is there in heaven that attracts you ?? When I asked this question to somebody, he told me that in heaven one could sleep in the lap of Ibrahim Nabi. I ask you, who wants to sleep in the lap of an old man ??I'm not so sure about me going to heaven, but I damn sure know what it takes
let's not have such racist remarks either ...TSJones wrote:Pot calling the kettle black.
Are you an agnostic hindu?Alok_N wrote:a "put down" is different from a "lie" ... you have been lying in your trolling ...TSJones wrote:Pot calling the kettle black. It seems to me you have been doing more than your fair share of trolling and put downs.
considering that you show no contrition for your sin, you have earned an upgrade to 1 billion Poppins ...
Brief!!!! Before you argue anymore, please go down and visit all of Ashoka's writings [atleast]. And figure it out yourself how "brief" they are! Till that time pointing out to you about those historical records will be like the classic case of bringing the donkey to the well but cannot make the donkey drink the water.SriKumar wrote:My point exactly: we have had to interpolate/extrapolate from brief stone carvings and stories (which could be part myth) to deduce social structures. All the while, elaborate philosophies survive into present day. (seems like creative thought was given primacy over documentation of the mundane).
What makes you so sure that they were not a jaundiced view of an outsider commenting? Megasthenes classically said that Indians know nothing of writing!If you've read Al Biruni's commentary or Megasthenes' surving passages, they are really specific in their description and social comment. There seems to be no Indian equivalent of such works.
This is now probably off-topic (though of much interest to me). It is my last post on this.
monisticTSJones wrote:Are you an agnostic hindu?
Calvin, The fallacy of logic in your statement is, as if the victim would not have delivered the child, if not for a rape.shiv wrote:No we must not condemn the baby.Calvin wrote: This is correct. It would have been preferable if the rapist actually romanced the girl, and married her before he knocked her up.
Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we condemn the baby.
But we must not deny the rape either.
Bidet calling the crapper "stained".Alok_N wrote:let's not have such racist remarks either ...TSJones wrote:Pot calling the kettle black.
the correct phrase is "toilet calling the sink white" ...
no, I am monistic in every sphere of life ...TSJones wrote:So you are an agnostic in profession of belief but you subscribe to monistic hinduism?
I would like to point out (although I am certainly no great practitioner of it) sex can get somewhat jaded considering some of the games that people play. At times, it can cause great anguish.Raju wrote:TSJ, what is there in heaven that attracts you ?? When I asked this question to somebody, he told me that in heaven one could sleep in the lap of Ibrahim Nabi. I ask you, who wants to sleep in the lap of an old man ??I'm not so sure about me going to heaven, but I damn sure know what it takes
Rekha, Sridevi, Gina Lollobrigida, Marilyn Monroe are the ones in whose lap we want to sleep in, and they shall all be in hell. Gee...what a no-brainer ?
We have an even more beautiful scenario in India - happens only in India I guess. We have the babies (and subsequent progeny) of rapes glorifying and swearing by the rapists while denigrating the mothers who bore the children. This implies that those mothers who escaped the rape and their legitimate children and their progeny are somehow obligated to uphold the desirability of rape and glorify the rape events of the past. And then these children and progeny of rape have the gall to state they are on the side of the other children and be offended when their claims are taken as suspect.No we must not condemn the baby.
But we must not deny the rape either.
Thank You Raju.Raju wrote:folks let us give Rakesh a chance to explain himself, before we do an autopsy on his statement.
On so called Islamic architecture, I do not know, how much of it is a measured and knowledgeable assertion or just plain old history from Indian school text books, highly engineered by Marxist and Secular historians.Rakesh wrote: But I am glad they came to India for the culture it brought. I shudder to think what India would be like without rogan ghosh , Indo-Islamic architecture, the varied languages that are spoken in the country, the list is endless.
Well that is a weak argument to say that without multi-ethnic religions India would have become like pakistan. I would turn around your statement and say that because of the invasion of other faiths a portion of the Indian subcontinent has beome pakistan and become a basket case.India is better off today with the multi-ethinic religions that it has. Take a look at the basket case Pakistan has become, as a direct result of the path it took in 1947. Now compare that with India. There is no comparison.
Keeping in perspective, to what has been happening [ie. one individual interpreting what the other postors response "would/could" be , for whatever reasons] , I will take this one time exception and post what TSJ woulda/coulda written in respose to the above [ie. if the above post wasn't from him].TSJones wrote:Are you an agnostic hindu?
TSJones wrote:Sajan:
Please tone it down or you will be gone. I very much want to see you to continue to contribute your knowledge about the situation. Please consider that even objective observations with direct links to news is going to be highly controversial here. Don't add ridicule the way they do, because well, the forum here is to honor India and they think India is under constant attack from America anyway. I know you will take my words in the best manner, not as a put down. Thanks in advance. - TSJ
PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad to.
But I am glad they came to India for the culture it brought. I shudder to think what India would be like without rogan ghosh
Advise given by a friend from Punjab: In that case, if you really want to be ready for all possibilities, make sure to learn to speak Punjabi.. (Lingua franca of Paki Jabi's) )TSJones wrote:I'm not so sure about me going to heaven..
But Rakeshbabu, have you thought about how would India be without the cultural destruction that took place under Islamic and xtian rule? I very much doubt that it is your belief that "although the enormous destruction of Indic culture and thousands of temples was horrendous, I am glad the mosques and churches were built in their place for the diversity they brought."I am by no means condoning the millions of Hindu lives that were brutally masaccered by Muslims and Xtians alike. But I am glad they came to India for the culture it brought. I shudder to think what India would be like without rogan ghosh Smile, Indo-Islamic architecture, the varied languages that are spoken in the country, the list is endless.
They were my ancestors too! I guess because that I am an Indian Christian, I have no claim to my ancestors. Only you guys can claim ancestorship because you are still Hindu? Should I be angry at every Portuguese out there whose ancestors single handedly destroyed all written documentation (& thus evidence) of Christianity in India because they wanted Catholicsm to be predominant?rocky wrote:Thank you very much for these great and kind words. Finally I have someone with whom I can celebrate the gruesome massacre and murder of millions of Indians, a few of whom were my ancestors!
So now it is the fault of every Muslim currently living in India & Pakistan, that the Islamic hordes came? Why are you so hell bent on the past? It is done with. You can't change it and lose the hatred.rocky wrote:I hope you realize what you are talking about ... the invasions from the Islamic hordes is what resulted in the creation of Pakistan, so shouldn't you be arguing the opposite? If this is your attitude towards Bharat, then what are you trying to be a Rakshak of?
Good point. It is my understanding that Islam came to India with the arrival of Babur. I could be wrong on this point and I will stand corrected. But I am highlighting the fact that Islam came to India. That is all.SriKumar wrote:From my perspective, which I hope, correctly reflects the perspectives of most others on this forum, the arrival and the life of St. Thomas in India was a completely peaceful affair, whereas the arrival of Islamic armies (starting with Ghazni, then Ghori, Aibak, Khilji, Tughluqs and then Babur) are associated with large scale killing. That's what armies do. In this case, religion was a major aspect in the Islamic invasions. For this reason alone, when it comes to spreading religion, I would not put an equivalence between St. Thomas and Babur. (Am assuming that this was some sort of a typo or something).
Phew! Thanks. That is the last charge I need! I truly mean that and I am not being sarcasticsaumitra_j wrote:I know you want to be sarcastic here but please understand than in your sarcasm, you are looking like a real EJs which you are not.
I don't find it curious. I consider it as a matter of great pride that India has so much diversity and acceptance of different views. And I am thankful to the Hindu community for that and more importantly to the constitution of India that grants me that freedom.saumitra_j wrote:India has always been a multi cultural/ multi religious society - don't you find it curious that so much diversity and acceptance of differnt views exists only in India and NO OTHER part in the world?
Thank YouRaju wrote:I am of the view that anything that rises should be encouraged and reaffirmed. the future of entire mankind rests on this act.
I think you did indeed misread what I stated. If you are still confused, please do ask me to further clarify.pradeepe wrote:You too Rakesh! This is sad.
I am just hoping that I misread what you meant.
Neither am I denying the rape and neither am I condemning the baby. I think many in this forum are condemning the rape and the baby.Acharya wrote:Also how to make sure that rape does not happen by not welcoming the rape as legitimate.
TSJones wrote:Sajan:
Please tone it down or you will be gone. I very much want to see you to continue to contribute your knowledge about the situation. Please consider that even objective observations with direct links to news is going to be highly controversial here. Don't add ridicule the way they do, because well, the forum here is to honor India and they think India is under constant attack from America anyway. I know you will take my words in the best manner, not as a put down. Thanks in advance. - TSJ
PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad to.
Tilak, why don't you stick to something you know like googling statistics concerning nominal Christians and their disbelief in evolution. Other than that, you have contributed *zero* to the understanding of religion on these past 10 threads.Tilak wrote:Keeping in perspective, to what has been happening [ie. one individual interpreting what the other postors response "would/could" be , for whatever reasons] , I will take this one time exception and post what TSJ woulda/coulda written in respose to the above [ie. if the above post wasn't from him].TSJones wrote:Are you an agnostic hindu?
TSJones wrote:Sajan:
Please tone it down or you will be gone. I very much want to see you to continue to contribute your knowledge about the situation. Please consider that even objective observations with direct links to news is going to be highly controversial here. Don't add ridicule the way they do, because well, the forum here is to honor India and they think India is under constant attack from America anyway. I know you will take my words in the best manner, not as a put down. Thanks in advance. - TSJ
PS: if you want me to erase this message, I will certainly be glad to.
Disha, it seems like you find it rather easy to call people names (via cutesy phrases) but before you do that, you would do well to read my original post clearly. It would equally easy for me to call you a clod- for reasons listed below, but I will desist for now.disha wrote: Brief!!!! Before you argue anymore, please go down and visit all of Ashoka's writings [atleast]. And figure it out yourself how "brief" they are! Till that time pointing out to you about those historical records will be like the classic case of bringing the donkey to the well but cannot make the donkey drink the water.
In interests of being brief, I used the word 'mundane' to descibe social structures (class, interaction, behaviour etc.), of this, there are tons of works now.You are on a limb when you are asserting that creative thought was given primacy over documentation of the mundane. Even now in present day world, there is *no* documentation of the mundane.
Ah! so you finally get it??! This is precisely the reason for my original post. Please do both of us a favor and go read my first post you responded to (I wrote it in response to Shaurya's post). He posted a longish post where most of the sources were Megasthenes, Chachnama, Al Biruni and finally Manusmriti. With 3 or 4 sources being foreign in source, I had asked about the existence of Indian equivalents. I even mentioned the time-range of interest 500 B.C to pre-British. The implicit point being (if you still did not get it) that if we Indians have to rely on foreigners to narrate our social customers/heirarchy, there is the potential for bias.they were not a jaundiced view of an outsider commenting? Megasthenes classically said that Indians know nothing of writing!
My friend, this was the SOLE reason for my original post. Thank you for finally understanding it.If you are relying on outsiders to provide you an account and turning blind - nay almost macaulyte - when viewing the internal resouces - you are going to go astray!
"toilet calling the sink white"TSJones wrote: Tilak, why don't you stick to something you know like googling statistics concerning nominal Christians and their disbelief in evolution. Other than that, you have contributed *zero* to the understanding of religion on these past 10 threads.
Yes, would admins do us a favor and tell him to go and play on some other thread, since he clearly lacks the intellectual maturity and conceptual understanding to post on this one.Acharya wrote:This is funny. TSJones sees that everybody whose argument is opposed to the main line of thinking here is a friend of his and his thoughts. He does not know how Indians debate even inside India.
So Hindus are the only ones that contributed anything that is architecturally significant to India?ShauryaT wrote:On so called Islamic architecture, I do not know, how much of it is a measured and knowledgeable assertion or just plain old history from Indian school text books, highly engineered by Marxist and Secular historians.
Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.ShauryaT wrote:The language example is really laughable, the last thing India needed was an infusion of more languages.
Oops!Raju wrote:Rakesh, I'm afraid that now the Bengalis will take offence.
I would be Hindu. That is how I think of it.aditya wrote:But Rakeshbabu, have you thought about how would India be without the cultural destruction that took place under Islamic and xtian rule?
That is not my belief, although I am afraid that is the way it came out. Were the Islamic hordes bad in the fact that they killed millions of Hindus? Yes. Should we blame all the Muslims in India currently, for what their ancestors did? No. Should we start destroying their mosques, for what their ancestors did to your temples? No. Should we start erasing their culture, for what their ancestors did? No. That is what I am saying.aditya wrote:I very much doubt that it is your belief that "although the enormous destruction of Indic culture and thousands of temples was horrendous, I am glad the mosques and churches were built in their place for the diversity they brought."
I don't react at all. People have been bashing Christianity ever since it came out. Oh well!aditya wrote:Also, how do you react to indications that a lot of xtian thought can actually be sourced to pre-existing pagan philosophies, and by extension to Hindu philosophy as well?
That is a good link! Enjoy!aditya wrote:PS: The John Gill archive link you had given me ages ago is still in my bookmarks. Not had the time yet to go through it yet
Sorry, but what is the Raga Puriya?aditya wrote:PPS: As I write this, I am actually listening to Raga Puriya by Ustad Vilayat Khan.
There would have been a cross cultural exchanges no matter what in the long run. Hindus have just started the process of healing and reconciliation after centuries and do not want another round of mental colonization and mental/physical violence.Rakesh wrote: I am by no means condoning the millions of Hindu lives that were brutally masaccered by Muslims and Xtians alike. But I am glad they came to India for the culture it brought. I shudder to think what India would be like without rogan ghosh , Indo-Islamic architecture, the varied languages that are spoken in the country, the list is endless. Hinduism has a rich & varied culture and any EJ who says otherwise only display their limited knowledge. But other religions also have their culture - while not arguably close to Hinduism - it is still culture nonetheless and is a part of Indian culture. From what I have read & understood in the past nine threads, is that Hindus are tolerant of all religions. Alas the same cannot be said of Christianity or Islam and that is not a trump card for either of them. Especially when it says in the Bible, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14, KJV.
Well said. I will be the first one to sign a petition or stand in a picket line (or whatever else needs to be done) to prevent another round of mental colonization and mental/physical violence. Indian Christians and Muslims are on your side. Stop feeling that the burden of protecting India and her culture is for Hindus to do alone. I am just as much of an Indian as you. My faith in Christianity does not dilute the love for my country. But allow us to help you. The minority in India too has shed blood their country. Does that not count for anything?Acharya wrote:There would have been a cross cultural exchanges no matter what in the long run. Hindus have just started the process of healing and reconciliation after centuries and do not want another round of mental colonization and mental/physical violence.
I wouldn't put it that way ... Islamists are responsible for destroying existing architecture in India ...Rakesh wrote:So Hindus are the only ones that contributed anything that is architecturally significant to India?ShauryaT wrote:On so called Islamic architecture, I do not know, how much of it is a measured and knowledgeable assertion or just plain old history from Indian school text books, highly engineered by Marxist and Secular historians.
Acharya, Is this not very same thing which Ejs insist upon doing to us?Acharya wrote:There would have been a cross cultural exchanges no matter what in the long run. Hindus have just started the process of healing and reconciliation after centuries and do not want another round of mental colonization and mental/physical violence.Rakesh wrote: I am by no means condoning the millions of Hindu lives that were brutally masaccered by Muslims and Xtians alike. But I am glad they came to India for the culture it brought. I shudder to think what India would be like without rogan ghosh , Indo-Islamic architecture, the varied languages that are spoken in the country, the list is endless. Hinduism has a rich & varied culture and any EJ who says otherwise only display their limited knowledge. But other religions also have their culture - while not arguably close to Hinduism - it is still culture nonetheless and is a part of Indian culture. From what I have read & understood in the past nine threads, is that Hindus are tolerant of all religions. Alas the same cannot be said of Christianity or Islam and that is not a trump card for either of them. Especially when it says in the Bible, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14, KJV.
Since you are Canadian - you should object to Canada being depcited as a Christian country in the map, since its multi-religious or the US being depicted as a Christian country as its also multi-religious....Rakesh wrote:I forgot to mention that on the map issue, where India is shown as a multi-religion nation is indeed correct. The constitution of India says that it is a socialist & secular republic and thus the map is correct. To classify it as a Hindu nation is wrong, because that is not what the constitution says.
*CHANGE* the constitution and only then is the map wrong.
this is the result of a siege-mentality. Hindus believed in 'Kalyug' were their fortunes would be at the lowest and the Tartar/Mogul hordes heralded the arrival of the worst phase of Kalyug.Rakesh wrote:Indian Christians and Muslims are on your side. Stop feeling that the burden of protecting India and her culture is for Hindus to do alone.