Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 18:36

still, if the IAF was strongly adopting the tejas in parallel the negotiating position would be stronger.
right now, its between devil, his cousin and the deep sea (usa,france, russia) with domestic solns unloved.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Apr 2015 18:37

But my missing out on not ordering LCA and giving up on local manufacture of Rafale. I think we are making old mistakes, would have been better to order more MKI, why couldnt they order more LCA MK 1 and get an additional line going.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 18:42

Singha wrote:still, if the IAF was strongly adopting the tejas in parallel the negotiating position would be stronger.
right now, its between devil, his cousin and the deep sea (usa,france, russia) with domestic solns unloved.

true.

the IAF played a real stunt by constantly undercutting the MOD negotiating position with 'only Rafale' and even deploying retd officers like AVM Bahadur to rubbish even reports of the Su-30/LCA replacing the LCA.

It just goes to show that for all the tough talk, Parrikar is yet to really get these things in hand & its business as usual with AHQ etc upto their usual, each service trying for its toys & shiniest imports, domestic capability a far 2nd.

PS: Spoke to several rtd types recently in the know of things, they admitted that the "import mania" is now institutionalized and will never really go away in the short term. These are guys who saw both sides of the fence so understand the issues with this approach. Also mentioned legalizing the middlemen will only worsen things.

PS the Chinese vs the Russians on the Su-35

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 8&cid=1101

Sale of Su-35 jets to China delayed by price objections

Staff Reporter 2015-04-09 09:14 (GMT+8)

A Su-35 gives a demonstration flight in Zhuhai on Nov. 10, 2014, a day before the Zhuhai Airshow's official opening. (Photo/Xinhua)

Russia's sale of 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighters to China may be postponed because the PLA Air Force feels the price is too high, according to Duowei News, an outlet operated by overseas Chinese.

Xu Yongling, a retired officer of the PLA Air Force, complained about the attitude of the Russian delegation on his Weibo microblog. "Those Russians are crazy for money, the only thing they are thinking about is to extort China," Xu said. "However, they have miscalculated this time because China no longer needs their technology any more and they will absolutely suffer from this price war."

The Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation was the first Russian government agency to confirm that Beijing and Moscow are discussing the sale of the Su-35 to China. Earlier reports indicated that China originally wanted only four Su-35s to gain the technology it needs to design engine for its advanced fighter program in the future. Russia wanted China to purchase 48 aircraft instead, not only to make more money but also out of concerns that China would back engineer the aircraft to make its own version, as has happened in the past.

In November 2012, an agreement was finally reached for China to purchase 24 Su-35 fighters. The Su-35 was demonstrated at the Zhuhai Airshow in Guangdong late last year.

Dmitry Rogozin, the Russian deputy prime minister, claimed that the contract would be signed in December. However, Alexander Fomin, the director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, confirmed that the contract has not yet been signed as of March 27.

Unconfirmed reports suggest that the Russian side raised objections during the negotiations. While Beijing wanted Sukhoi to design a tailored version of the Su-35, Moscow insisted on providing a standard model for the initial deliveries. Meanwhile, Russia also agreed to work with India, a rival and potential enemy for China, to jointly develop a new version of the aircraft. This may be another reason for the delay in the sale to China.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 18:49

The proponent of russian aircrafts on this forum is beyhond my understanding knowing the russians are seeking to sell SU-35 to China (and S400). They are selling their best tech to China and many advocate for more SU30 ? No wonder IAF is willing to depart from an all Russian air fleet.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 18:53

arthuro wrote:The proponent of russian aircrafts on this forum is beyhond my understanding knowing the russians are seeking to sell SU-35 to China (and S400). They are selling their best tech to China and many advocate for more SU30 ? No wonder IAF is willing to depart from an all Russian air fleet.

If france could, it would sell its crown jewels to China.. and your lot has sold everything from Dauphins to Crotales to China before.. so please spare us your rabble rousing...this sort of glib commentary in your posts is why its impossible to take anything you say seriously as versus some of the other French posters..

http://thediplomat.com/2012/04/eu-shoul ... s-embargo/
https://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/12/05 ... ted-again/

France has sustained an effort to lift teh EU arms embargo..

" is beyhond my understanding"

So yes, develop your understanding.... and your attempts to slip one over by pretending to speak for the IAF are silly.

" No wonder IAF is willing to depart from an all Russian fleet"

Its common sense that the IAF wants to diversify away from one primary supplier. Its always been the case. Even countries sourcing locally move between two-three OEMs if they have them & can afford it.

But don't try and pull a fast one by claiming France is any different than Russia. Chances are most Chinese high end local gear has some French dual use stuff in it anyhow.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 19:03

comment in youtube:

Government of Korea should have chosen the Rafale instead of the crappy f-15 eagles that we bought in 2002 as part of the FX1 competition. Now those F-15 strike eagles are obsolete and the greedy Americans are raising prices for maintenance work every year citing the fact that parts are not produced anymore. Rafale beat the F-15 in the raw competition score of the FX1 competition but the Americans found a way to sabotage the competition. Now we are stuck with buying yet another crappy airplane, the F-35....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 19:05

F-15 yes... but to be honest, the F-35 would have a huge advantage versus the Rafale in A2A if it uses offboard sensor feeds from an AEW&C. VLO vs merely reduced RCS.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 19:06

china does not really want the Su35BM, but its the Al41F(117S) engine they are after....they are willing to drop a couple billion to buy a token number of su35 to keep the Rus happy too.

the first AL41F that lands in cheen will go straight to x-ray lab, not the hangar

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 Apr 2015 19:06

Who really knows what this deal is about. All of a sudden we hear that 60+ aircraft will be bought directly from France. Def more going on behind the scenes than anyone could have predicted. Tired of this dragging on.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 19:09

Singha wrote:china does not really want the Su35BM, but its the Al41F(117S) engine they are after....they are willing to drop a couple billion to buy a token number of su35 to keep the Rus happy too.

the first AL41F that lands in cheen will go straight to x-ray lab, not the hangar

exactumundo. i wonder whether the Su-35 etc being discussed with India was more to do with the Su-30 upgrade.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Apr 2015 19:12

RoyG wrote:Who really knows what this deal is about. All of a sudden we hear that 60+ aircraft will be bought directly from France. Def more going on behind the scenes than anyone could have predicted. Tired of this dragging on.

Agreed, let's just get it over with one way or the other. This story has dragged on long enough. I have only one expectation from RM Parrikar: an announcement about more LCA orders to make up for this. The 10 sq-retiring-next-year argument falls flat if we stop with ordering only 3 sq Rafale and no LCA to fill the remaining sqds. (at least 3-4 sq over what's been ordered so far). Fingers crossed, let's see.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 19:13

the AL41F as you know is a larger diameter engine than AL31F and cannot fit into the su30. I think technology wise they are nearly same level and it gets the extra 2t or whatever thrust via larger mass flow and fuel burn at the same combustion temp.

the real meat is the new engine they are working on, but thats off limits to cheen - for now anyway.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Apr 2015 19:14

Singha wrote:comment in youtube:

Government of Korea should have chosen the Rafale instead of the crappy f-15 eagles that we bought in 2002 as part of the FX1 competition. Now those F-15 strike eagles are obsolete and the greedy Americans are raising prices for maintenance work every year citing the fact that parts are not produced anymore. Rafale beat the F-15 in the raw competition score of the FX1 competition but the Americans found a way to sabotage the competition. Now we are stuck with buying yet another crappy airplane, the F-35....

Seriously? Are we going to be posting youtube comments now?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 19:14

Parrikar and Namo needs to have a 'quiet chat' with the jernails in vayu bhavan saying look we gave you your shiny iphone7 rafale toys to play with, but you got to reciprocate by buying and supporting equal num of tejas right now.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 10 Apr 2015 19:16

^I for one would gladly swallow the bitter Rafale pill if it means more orders for the LCA Mk 1/2.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Apr 2015 19:19

Under the MAKE in INDIA more LCA orders should be pushed regardless of whether the Rafale is bought directly from France, made in india or is acquired using a mix of the two as was earlier planned. Its a no brainer.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 10 Apr 2015 19:20

30 years ago, India bought 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 off the shelf in a knee jerk reaction to the US supplying F16s to Pakistan. Today India may buy 40-60 Dassault Rafale off the shelf in a knee jerk reaction to falling squadron strength. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Apr 2015 19:20

But ordering Rafale, while keeping mum on LCA, why not ordder LCA Mk1 in more numbers get the production line upto 32 per year. There are enough Mig-21's which need replacement before this.

Each weapons loadout of Rafale will cost cost 10-20mil forex depending on the package.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 19:21

Karan M wrote:
arthuro wrote:The proponent of russian aircrafts on this forum is beyhond my understanding knowing the russians are seeking to sell SU-35 to China (and S400). They are selling their best tech to China and many advocate for more SU30 ? No wonder IAF is willing to depart from an all Russian air fleet.
If france could, it would sell its crown jewels to China.. and your lot has sold everything from Dauphins to Crotales to China before.. so please spare us your rabble rousing...this sort of glib commentary in your posts is why its impossible to take anything you say seriously as versus some of the other French posters..

http://thediplomat.com/2012/04/eu-shoul ... s-embargo/
https://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/12/05 ... ted-again/

France has sustained an effort to lift teh EU arms embargo..

" is beyhond my understanding"

So yes, develop your understanding.... and your attempts to slip one over by pretending to speak for the IAF are silly.

" No wonder IAF is willing to depart from an all Russian fleet"

Its common sense that the IAF wants to diversify away from one primary supplier. Its always been the case. Even countries sourcing locally move between two-three OEMs if they have them & can afford it.

But don't try and pull a fast one by claiming France is any different than Russia. Chances are most Chinese high end local gear has some French dual use stuff in it anyhow.

This is flawed logic, how can someone take anything you say seriously ? France dropped the idea to sell arms to China and hasn't sold anything since quite some years know (and never first tier military hardware like fighter jets) and this should "justify" and "appologize" the Russian will to sell top military stuff to China today. You shouldn't find excuse in the past but look forward. France is not in a selling campaign with China to sell the rafale or any military hardware for that matter. For the record France sold sold 60 mirage 2000-5 to Taiwan...

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Apr 2015 19:23

Singha wrote:Parrikar and Namo needs to have a 'quiet chat' with the jernails in vayu bhavan saying look we gave you your shiny iphone7 rafale toys to play with, but you got to reciprocate by buying and supporting equal num of tejas right now.

^^ Exactly. Even though it may take longer to actually build a second assembly line and complete building up and operationalise enough LCAs, the Rafale orders also will take some time, unless we get some flyaway condition from the French AF returnable on receipt of new fighters. But there is bound to be a temporary shortfall in sqds if the 10 sqd report is to be believed. But only by having enough (>> 40) Tejas in the IAF can we hope enough young pilots - who will be tomorrow's AMs - to support desi stuff in the long term. The IN has sort of achieved this after a long sustained effort, time for the IAF to get there.

If NaMo/Parrikar do this, then I have no objections to getting the 63 Rafales as a stop gap.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 19:32

Europe does supply lot of dual use item to China inspite of arms embargo they end up powering chinese military

Chinese Military's Secret to Success: European Engineering

European Companies Are Supplying China With Billions In Weapons And Military Technology

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 19:35

arthuro wrote:This is flawed logic, how can someone take anything you say seriously ? France dropped the idea to sell arms to China and hasn't sold anything since quite some years know (and never first tier military hardware like fighter jets) and this should "justify" and "appologize" the Russian will to sell top military stuff to China today. You shouldn't find excuse in the past but look forward. France is not in a selling campaign with China to sell the rafale or any military hardware for that matter.

Dude, please stop fibbing. I just punctured your claims that France is oh-so-special versus Russia with the weblinks above. They clearly show that given a chance France will sell all it has & then some to China for a few dinero.

Unlike the Russians who are open about their sales, you attempt to brazen it out playing semantic games. Ever heard of the story of glass houses and stones..??

http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/eu-firms ... ise-559611

China's air force relies on French-designed helicopters, while submarines and frigates involved in Beijing's physical assertion of its claim to vast swathes of the South China Sea are powered by German and French engines -- part of a separate trade in "dual use" technology to Beijing's armed forces.

Chinese President Xi Jinping announced stepped-up production of the Airbus EC175 helicopter in China during his visit to France in March -- a deal analysts said could result in technology transfers to the military.

"European exports are very important for the Chinese military," said Andrei Chang, editor of the Hong Kong-based Kanwa Asian Defence Review.

"Without European technology, the Chinese navy would not be able to move."

Citing the co-production deal signed in France, Chang said: "China uses the name of civil purchase to purchase French helicopter engines, and they shift those engines into military helicopters."

"If (China) knows how to design the middle-sized EC175, they will know how to design a middle-sized military transport helicopter."

China's recent military helicopters "appear to just be upgrades" of Airbus designs, said Roger Cliff, military analyst at the US-based Atlantic Council.

Bernadette Andreosso, director of European studies at Ireland's University of Limerick, described Europe's dual-use export controls as "very lax, very loose".

http://www.afcea.org/content/?q=chinese ... influences

The first imported French sonars were two sets of the lightweight Thomson SS-12 variable depth sonars in 1974. These can be used as a dipping sonar on antisubmarine warfare (ASW) helicopters or as a variable-depth stern-mounted sonar on a small ASW patrol craft. The five Han-class SSNs reportedly obtained French DUUX-5 sonar sometime around 1974, as did the single Xia nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) around 1988, although Chinese SQX- designations were used. Three Chinese diesel Song-class submarines carried French TSM-2233 and TSM-2255 sonars beginning around 1988.

In 1987, on Haiju patrol craft hulls 688 and 697, SS-12 variable depth sonar (VDS) replaced the aft 57-millimeter guns. These sonars could have been copies of the two acquisitions from France. The workhorse Luda-class guided missile destroyers (DDGs) had their first notable upgrade in 1987. The lead ship built in 1972, DDG 105, received facilities for two helicopters and 57-millimeter guns but no new bow sonar. This was known as the one-of-a-kind Luda II. What is not as well-known is that another Luda, DDG 131, was in a Shanghai dry dock with a large bow sonar dome in the same year but was not called a Luda II.

The most capable French sonar provided was the DUBV-23 surface-ship scanning LF search sonar. The first example appeared on the first Luda III conversion in 1990. The two new construction Luhu DDGs had the DUBV-23 in 1993, and the larger Luhai DDG had one in 1999. The largest and best warships of the PLAN all sported the DUBV-23, and the Luhu also had the French DUBV-43 LF VDS aft. China had licensed production rights from France for both sonars.

In short, France & Russia equal equal. Both in it for the bijness

For the record France sold sold 60 mirage 2000-5 to Taiwan...

Ah, arthuro you really crack me up.

http://atimes.com/atimes/China/LF10Ad02.html
http://thediplomat.com/2012/03/how-euro ... om-taiwan/

Never mind the persistent reports how France won't offer anything more to Taiwan because of fears of losing influence in China.

I mean, everyone knows you are mercenary, which is why even India procures from you. You support Mirage 3/5s in Pakistan, negotiate with them for the JF-17 (and hold off only when India buys an expensive, overpriced Mirage 2000 upgrade), sell them Agosta's.. why deny the obvious?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 19:39

Oh so moral France

- Sells Mirage 3/Vs to Pakistan, sells Mirage 2000s to India
- Sells Magic-1/R530 to Pakistan, sells Magic-2/Super530D to India
- Sells Atlis pods to both India and Pakistan
- Sells helicopters to both India and Pakistan
- Sells Agosta90s to Pakistan, Scorpenes to India.

"we are better than Russia", sniffs Arthuro.

Oh, the moral high ground. ROTFL onlee.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 19:42

Singha wrote:Parrikar and Namo needs to have a 'quiet chat' with the jernails in vayu bhavan saying look we gave you your shiny iphone7 rafale toys to play with, but you got to reciprocate by buying and supporting equal num of tejas right now.

One can hope. As versus giving hard earned forex away to a bunch of folks who'll gladly sell to Saudi or anyone at the drop of a hat. High time make in India moved beyond a slogan.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Apr 2015 19:43

Subramanian Swamy doing the loose cannon routine that he is well practiced in. Threatens to initiate Public Interest Litigation against the Government led by his own BJP party if the Rafale deal is concluded:

Will take legal recourse if Narendra Modi government goes ahead with Rafale deal: Subramanian Swamy

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 19:53

Karan M,

You are just making a fool of your self. bringing a civilian helicopter and 70's era miliray deals won't make your point.

-Fact is Russia is currently trying to sell its best military technology to China.
-Fact is France is in no commercial campain to sell any kind of military hardware to China and has no plans to do so and won't be allowed by EU anyway.

Reverse engineering some civilian stuff without your consent is nothing compared to trying to sell its best military hardware like Russia is doing. This is not comparable. I repeat a civilian helicopter manufactured in JV like the EC175 is NOT a SU35 or S400. It's not like France was going to sell the rafale to China.

As for Pakistan, India has always the best French tech which should be reassuring. Mirage 3 (ex australians) vs mirage 2000...Seriously.

And as far as I know France is in no major defense deal negotiation with pakistan which could compromise Indian safety.

France does not export weapons to China and has no major military deals in sight with Pakistan. Not like Russia and the US...hum.

period.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 10 Apr 2015 19:53

^Ya, the guy is useful sometimes, but basically a loose cannon. To think that there are people here who were wondering why he wasn't made a minister. Just goes to show the shallow kind of nationalism that turns at the drop of the had to despair and revenge mongering.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 19:54

Enough fighting.

stick to the MMRCA

news conf is due in 1 hr.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 10 Apr 2015 19:55

arthuro wrote:Karan M,

You are just making a fool of your self. bringing a civilian helicopter and 70's era miliray deals won't make your point.
Fact is Russia is currently trying to sell its best military technology to China.
Fact is France is in no commercial campain to sell any kind of military hardware to China and has no plans to do so and won't be allowed by EU anyway.

period.

Just a matter of terminology. Isn't "Military hardware" but "dual-use" items. Sell all major components including engine etc and then claim never exported "military" hardware. Yup

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 19:56

putnaja hope you read my admin note above?

---
one manu pubby on twitter

Expected between 9-10 pm, formal word on the Rafale deal from Paris. Outright purchase of 3 squadrons (63 fighters), scrapping old process.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 10 Apr 2015 20:03

Singha wrote:putnaja hope you read my admin note above?

---
one manu pubby on twitter

Expected between 9-10 pm, formal word on the Rafale deal from Paris. Outright purchase of 3 squadrons (63 fighters), scrapping old process.

The bold part is the key. The whole "ToT" circus can be laid to rest.

But then it will open a requirement for another 60+ jets, most likely off the shelf too ..

This is a crucial test of Modi Govt's decision making.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 20:05

arthuro wrote:Karan M,

You are just making a fool of your self. bringing a civilian helicopter and 70's era miliray deals won't make your point.

As usual you are projecting, as you have shown yourself to be a lying twit who can't admit to the truth.

Fibs galore..
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Japan_p ... a_999.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/european ... 014-4?IR=T

Fact is Russia is currently trying to sell its best military technology to China.

Whereas France is selling its best dual use tech already.

Fact is France is in no commercial campain to sell any kind of military hardware to China and has no plans to do so and won't be allowed by EU anyway.

Admit it, its the EU preventing you.

Reverse engineering some civilian stuff without your consent is nothing compared to trying to sell its best military hardware like Russia is doing. This is not comparable.

LOL, you are licensing stuff to get money

As for Pakistan, India has always the best French tech which should be reassuring. Mirage 3 (ex australians) vs mirage 2000...Seriously.

period.

As I said, you will sell to anyone and everyone...including Pakistan.

And as far as I know France is in no major defense deal negotiation with pakistan which could compromise Indian safety.

Yeah sure.. fibs galore. You are of course the nodal french officer in charge of procurement and know everything about french sales to pakistan (or china)

So stop posturing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 20:06

Singha wrote:Enough fighting.

stick to the MMRCA

news conf is due in 1 hr.

Read it now & won't post more.

But the oh-so-moral posturing by the resident French troll was a bait too far.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Apr 2015 20:08

ldev wrote:30 years ago, India bought 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 off the shelf in a knee jerk reaction to the US supplying F16s to Pakistan. Today India may buy 40-60 Dassault Rafale off the shelf in a knee jerk reaction to falling squadron strength. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

One thing remains constant: the jerks have us on our knees.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 20:13

Arun Menon wrote:^Ya, the guy is useful sometimes, but basically a loose cannon. To think that there are people here who were wondering why he wasn't made a minister. Just goes to show the shallow kind of nationalism that turns at the drop of the had to despair and revenge mongering.

SG & family has become his primary focus. Unfortunately, the IAF needs the Rafale and he believes the INC has /tried to make money off of it and SSwamy can't seem to let it slide..
He does have a point in that things shouldn't have got to this state.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 10 Apr 2015 20:14

Cosmo_R wrote:
ldev wrote:30 years ago, India bought 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 off the shelf in a knee jerk reaction to the US supplying F16s to Pakistan. Today India may buy 40-60 Dassault Rafale off the shelf in a knee jerk reaction to falling squadron strength. The more things change, the more they remain the same.
<br abp="800"><br abp="801">One thing remains constant: the jerks have us on our knees.

Well, I've got to say although this is no doubt against the tide here at BR, that I would be quite pleased if this deal goes through. For a number of reasons, least of which is the damn circus would be over. But frankly, I feel that in one deft move, Modi has saved the day.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 20:16

nirav wrote:
Singha wrote:putnaja hope you read my admin note above?

---
one manu pubby on twitter

Expected between 9-10 pm, formal word on the Rafale deal from Paris. Outright purchase of 3 squadrons (63 fighters), scrapping old process.

The bold part is the key. The whole "ToT" circus can be laid to rest.

But then it will open a requirement for another 60+ jets, most likely off the shelf too ..

This is a crucial test of Modi Govt's decision making.

Exactly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 20:18

Cain Marko wrote:Well, I've got to say although this is no doubt against the tide here at BR, that I would be quite pleased if this deal goes through. For a number of reasons, least of which is the damn circus would be over. But frankly, I feel that in one deft move, Modi has saved the day.

The deal per se is not the issue or even Rafale.

The shambolic manner in which we allowed ourselves to be held hostage by Dassault (wtf was all that about not being allowed to go back to EF as deal didnt allow for it) and the price we will pay for it. This was clearly an IED laid by previous GOI and current one has been straitjacketed.

If 60 planes are bought, its an ad hoc purchase.. what of sustainment? Lets see...

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 20:19

"The equipment is a large, perforated steel plate that gives purchase to a grappling hook sent out by the helicopter, which can then use the guideline to draw itself down to the deck."

Impressive technology sold to China Karan M which must be worth a SU35 or an S400 battery in your flawed logic. This is not sanctionned by EU embargo despite Japan complaint. France is not selling China any military hardware and is not involved in a major selling campain is Pakistan unlike Russia and US. End of the debate and back to MRCA news !

I am not sure the announcement (if any) will be done during the first press conference. We will have the answer soon anyway.

I am also curious to see if the old contract will be scrapped or if the ordered jets (if confirmed) would be just there to bridge the gap with the main MRCA contract.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 20:26

Dude, that equipment allows China to field naval choppers. I know its beyond your vast intellect and logic, but dual use items matter.

And I can dig up a thousand more links about how your lot is selling stuff that can affect India & other nations..

Citing the co-production deal signed in France, Chang said: "China uses the name of civil purchase to purchase French helicopter engines, and they shift those engines into military helicopters."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/european ... z3WvCAJAgD

Kanwa

A source from French THALES told KDR that Pakistan has signed the contract of importing 900 sets of Catherine-FC thermal imaging systems to be fitted on the Al-Khalid MBTs of the Pakistani Army. Delivery of these thermal imaging systems is expected to start in March 2007. As an integrated plan, the same type of thermal imaging systems will also be used to upgrade the T85IIAP MBTs currently in service. A source from HIT told KDR that the reason they did not choose the Chinese-made thermal imaging systems was that they did not meet the demands of the Pakistani Army. Kanwa has learned that even the latest upgraded 99G MBTs use mechanical scanning thermal imaging system. Catherine-FC thermal imaging system works at 8-12μm band, weight smaller than 5.5kg, image resolution 754X576, wide field of view (WFOV) 9ºX6.7º, and narrow field of view (NFOV) 3ºX2.2º. Catherine-FC has a detection range of 10,000m for tanks, recognition range 4,500m, and identification range 2,300m.

In order to promote Al-Khalid MBTs to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan has also used Matis thermal imaging system produced by French SAGEM for testing purpose, mainly because the armored forces of the Saudi Arabian Army are currently using Sagem’s thermal imaging systems. The third generation Matis thermal imaging system works at 3-5μm band, weight smaller than 4.5kg, WFOV 12ºX8º, NFOV 2.5ºX1.7º, detection range for tanks 11,000m, recognition range 5,300m. The identification range of the system is not yet revealed.

http://in.linkedin.com/pub/laurent-oudet/2/703/26

- Military portable thermal camera named “SOPHIE”, customers: France, Pakistan, India

Keep talking out of both sides of your mouth .. it won't fool anyone.

Yeah.. so try to end the debate by acknowledging the truth.. which you are fundamentally incapable of doing, now or before.