International Aerospace Discussion

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Philip
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Philip »

In mourning for the Turkey td. being "shot down",like Cecil the lion!

It was such an entertaining and informative td. It really deserves its own td,what with the USMC about to operationalize it later this year.I remember (was it?) NR mentioning that the issue hadn't bitten him earlier,but after researching the bird,he found a wealth of tech info,etc. The JSF will continue to make headlines esp. as so many nations ,esp. the US depend upon it for the future. We may yet "resume normal service" what?
Nevertheless,here's a big Q that is being asked about it.Will it be the last of the manned fighters?

http://www.janes.com/article/53232/f-35 ... d-fighters
F-35 Lightning II - last of the manned fighters?
Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

27 July 2015
Although many have heralded the F-35 as being the last of the manned fighters, it seems more likely that for technological, operational, and even political reasons the pilot will have a place in the cockpit of fighter aircraft for the foreseeable future at least. (US Air Force)

With the US Marine Corps set to declare initial operating capability for its Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) before the end of July, many are again asking if there will ever be another manned fighter, or if the JSF truly is the last of its kind.

The history of military aviation is littered with false predictions pertaining to the demise of the traditional notion of the fighter aircraft. In the United States the Vought F-8 Crusader developed in the mid-1950s was nicknamed 'the last gunslinger' in the mistaken belief that all fighters to follow would carry missiles only.

The United Kingdom went one step further in 1957 when its Defence White Paper boldly stated that manned fighters would be replaced completely in the coming years by surface-to-air missiles; an erroneous projection that ultimately proved disastrous for the UK's defence aerospace sector.

Most recently, in April of this year US Navy (USN) secretary Ray Mabus was daring enough to state that the F-35 "should be, and almost certainly will be, the last manned strike fighter aircraft the Department of the Navy will ever buy or fly".

Whereas previously the end of manned fighters had been based on developments in the fields of air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, today it is the rise of unmanned technologies that threaten to herald the extinction of the fighter pilot.

Whatever you want to call them - be it unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), unmanned aircraft systems, remotely piloted aircraft, remotely piloted aircraft systems, or even the ubiquitous 'drones' - unmanned aircraft have proliferated exponentially since they first appeared over the battlefield in the early 1980s.

Pioneered by the Israel Defense Force as a means of neutralising enemy air defence systems (the idea being that the surface-to-air missiles would engage the UAV, exposing their positions to the manned fighters following), they have over recent years gone on to carve something of a niche for themselves as the intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) platform of choice over the skies of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and beyond. In addition to their ISR role, UAVs of all classes have taken on offensive capabilities with the integration of adapted and purpose-built munitions, and look set to take on more roles as their capabilities are expanded and their performance improved.

For their proponents, unmanned aircraft offer the prospect of zero casualties (on the side that is operating them, at least), as well as reduced development, acquisition, operating, and support costs when compared with manned fighters.

However, while it is certainly true that relocating the pilot from the cockpit to the ground does remove him or her from harm's way, it is certainly not a victimless endeavour on the part of the operators. UAV pilots have reported high levels of psychological illness following long periods of exposure to 'remote-control' warfare, in which they actively participate in the killing of combatants during their working day, returning to normal family life at the end of their shift. While fighter pilots are certainly exposed to more physical danger when conducting combat operations, being deployed with their peers and comrades provides a support structure not available to their unmanned counterparts.

Also, having a pilot in the cockpit exposed to the dangers of warfare might actually be preferable from a political standpoint. The use of UAVs has proven to be highly controversial, with one of the main reasons being that the lack of any danger to the operating nation lowers the threshold for their use. It is of no consequence to those protesting their use that unmanned aircraft are subject to the same rules of engagement (RoE) as manned aircraft (this is certainly true for air forces, although the RoE of secret security organisations such as the CIA are not known), the fact that they are unmanned somehow makes their use 'unfair' and therefore immoral. A manned aircraft performing the same mission is unimpacted by such philosophical considerations.

In terms of comparing the development, acquisition, operating, and support costs of manned and unmanned aircraft, it is unfortunate for the former that the rise in UAVs has coincided with the birth of the F-35; a project that in the popular consciousness has become something of a byword for profligacy and waste in the defence industry.

When set against the USD1.5 trillion being spent on the F-35 (the most expensive defence programme in history), it is not hard to point to UAVs being a cheaper and more cost effective solution all-round. However, such a comparison would be erroneous, as it would not be comparing like-for-like.

While the F-35 has been built for full-spectrum warfare in denied environments, current UAVs are suited only for ISR and light strike operations in relatively permissive environments - any air threat will all but nullify the use of unmanned aircraft over any battlefield today. Certainly, efforts have already been initiated to develop and build the next-generation of unmanned aircraft that will be able to operate in denied environments, such as the United States' Unmanned Carrier-Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) programme, the Franco-British Future Combat Air System (FCAS) and the pan-European nEUROn, but such vehicles are still likely to face the same political challenges to their use as do today's generation of UAVs.

Also, the term 'unmanned' is something of a misnomer, in that the pilot has not been removed from the equation but only relocated to the ground. Paradoxically, today's unmanned aircraft actually require at least as many (and often more) personnel to operate and sustain than do manned fighters. A manned Gripen fighter, say, has one pilot to fly the mission, whereas an unmanned Reaper UAV has a two-man team to launch the aircraft in theatre, this team then hands over the mission portion of the flight to a two/three-man team in the United States, before taking control again for recovery - up to five crew in all. Both platforms require comparable levels of infrastructure and manned support, and so it is hard to see where the manpower and fiscal savings promised by UAVs might actually come from, at least in the near to medium term.

Setting aside Mabus' comments on the F-35 being the last manned fighter that the navy will fly, the Pentagon has actually already begun the process of developing the JSF's replacement and it is not (necessarily) unmanned.

The US Air Force and USN have kick-started what they term to be 6th Generation fighter programmes (referencing the F-35's 5th Generation tag) in the Next Generation Tactical Aircraft (Next Gen TACAIR) programme. Launched in early 2013, Next Gen TACAIR is a Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency-led effort that is at the next generation of air dominance systems and platforms.

Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and Northrop Grumman have each indicated their plans to develop aircraft and compete any future 6th Generation requirement, with the first two releasing conceptual drawings of what their respective aircraft might look like; both of which feature cockpits. While these potential offerings are still very much in their conceptual stages, they are said to feature many of the stealth characteristics synonymous with 5th Generation fighters, but also futuristic enhancements in the fields of propulsion, structures, and avionics. Of perhaps more relevance to the issue as to whether the F-35 will be the last manned fighter, these 6th Generation platforms will likely be optionally manned rather than unmanned.

The concept of an optionally manned platform has a number of advantages over purely manned and unmanned solutions that would strongly suggest that this is the way forward for future fighter designers.
Optionally manned provides the best of both worlds, in balancing the reduced risk to aircrews of unmanned with the unparalleled flexibility and capability afforded by a human pilot.

Indeed, the capability request for information for Next Gen TACAIR specifically called for the development of an optionally manned aircraft, serving to underline the direction in which future fighter design is progressing. With Next Gen TACAIR setting out an initial operational capability of approximately 2030, the resulting aircraft would likely serve alongside the F-35 for a number of years before eventually replacing it, amply demonstrating that the death of the fighter pilot is not quite yet nigh.
brar_w
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

It really deserves its own td,what with the USMC about to operationalize it later this year
Its already operational (read the post a couple of posts above yours)l..As far as the other things stated in this article, optionally manned is an option already discussed by the F-35 team with the operators, and not something that is necessarily 6th generation. The USN will most definitely buy a manned fighter after the F-35 despite of what the Politico in Mabus has to say.
Philip
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Philip »

http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-yak-130- ... 3610[quote]
Russian Yak-130 Training Jet Being Lined Up For Sale As Fighter-Bomber To Foreign Customers, Including Syria

By Christopher Harress June 18 2015 4:12 PM EDT


A YAK-130 military plane performs during the opening of the MAKS-2009 international air show in Zhukovsky outside Moscow, August 18, 2009. REUTERS/Sergei Karpukhin

Russia is considering plans to convert its Yakovlev Yak-130 combat training aircraft into a fighter-bomber for future foreign customers, possibly including the Syrian regime. The proposal, which was floated by an executive of the Russian state-owned weapons exporter Rosoboronexport at the Paris Air Show on Thursday, would offer air forces unable to afford high-end fighter jets a chance to operate a state-of-the-art machine that can fulfill several roles.

“If they ask us for a fighter bomber, we may offer the Sukhoi-32. But if some client wants to have this plane (Yakovlev-130) and nothing else, some time and effort will be required for coping with such a request, but it is quite realistic," said Russia’s chief delegate at the air show, Sergey Kornev.

The Yak-130 is a latest-generation trainer, whose digital on-board equipment can be reconfigured quickly to mimic various other aircraft. It can carry a number of weapons as well, but hasn't actually been certified as a combat aircraft yet. However, it has a huge advantage compared to today's highly complex true fighter jets: It's enormously cheaper. A Yak-130 costs just $15 million, while the average price of a fighter jet is more than $100 million.

Yak-130 Farnborough 2012
Kornev said that the aircraft has the natural ability to progress to an attack aircraft that could eventually carry precision weapons. He also said that interest in the plane from customers was still just for training purposes, but some enthusiasm had been seen for a conversion into a fighter.

The primary role of the aircraft, which made its maiden flight in 1996, is to train pilots for advanced fighter aircraft.

Russia’s current customers for the aircraft include Algeria, Bangladesh, Belarus -- and possibly Syria, a traditional client of Russia, and the USSR before it, when it comes to weapons. The aircraft the regime of president Bashar Assad uses to bomb civilians are all Russian or Soviet types, and it's not far-fetched to imagine that any Yak-130s that made their way to Syria would also be used for that purpose.

But so far the Assad regime hasn't received any. When Syria made the order in 2013 for 36, it was amid international condemnation over atrocities committed by President Bashar Assad on his own people during the civil war. The contract for the Yak-130s was not finalized, although Russia doesn't specify whether this was due to concerns about atrocities or to other issues such as payment.

“The contract was put on hold until clarification of the political situation in the country. Anyway, we are ready to implement the contract [when the political situation is resolved],” said Viktor Lichaev at the LAAD defense and security conference in Rio de Janeiro in May.

He added: “The ball is in the court of our Syrian partners.”
[/quote]
wig
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by wig »

Airbus has patented a jet that could fly from London to New York in one hour, considering the speed and height it will fly the machine when operation should have interesting military applications
A new hypersonic aircraft patented by Airbus could cut the journey time between London and New York to just one hour.
The application to patent an "ultra-rapid air vehicle and related method of aerial locomotion" was approved by the US Patent and Trademark Office last month - just over four years after it was filed.
The invention involves turbojets and ramjets - a type of jet engine - and a rocket motor.
The French aircraft maker hopes it will be able to move at twice the speed of Concorde, which cruised at 1350 miles per hour before it was retired in 2003.
Airbus' proposed design could therefore shave two and a half hours off Concorde's journey time between London and New York, according to Business Insider
Traditional commercial aircraft currently take around seven hours to travel between the two cities.
Other long haul journeys could also be cut dramatically. Airbus is aiming to make the almost 5600 mile trip from Paris to San Francisco in three hours with the hypersonic jet.
In its application, Airbus said that the "market envisaged [for the potential new aircraft] is principally that of business travel and VIP passengers".
But it also sees a future for it in military operations, for example, “strategic reconnaissance, ultra-rapid transport of high added-value goods, and also equipped elite commandos”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 37623.html
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Singha »

raw power - from boeing page.

On June 26, 1972, James S. McDonnell, founder of McDonnell Aircraft, christened the F-15 "Eagle." Test pilot Irv Burrows took the first F-15 Eagle to the air on July 27, 1972, at Edwards Air Force Base in California. Six months later, the Air Force approved the Eagle for full-rate production. :shock:

In early 1975, flying out of Grand Forks Air Force Base in North Dakota, an F-15A known as Streak Eagle set many time-to-climb world records. Between Jan. 16 and Feb. 1, 1975, the Streak Eagle broke eight time-to-climb world records. It reached an altitude of 98,425 feet just 3 minutes, 27.8 seconds from brake release at takeoff and coasted to nearly 103,000 feet before descending.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Some of the SR-71 pilots may have to say something about some of those records...;)
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Singha »

apples to oranges sir....the sr71 was a low volume dedicated high-alt speed machine built at untold cost....f15 a reasonably priced high volume fighter.

the best comparison might be to a version of the Mig25 that used to set similar records.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-G ... rd_breaker

The Mikoyan-Gurevich design bureau soon realized that the performance of the new aircraft gave it great potential to set new flight records. In addition to their normal duties, the prototypes Ye-155-P1, Ye-155-R1, Ye-155-R3 were made lighter by removing some unneeded equipment, and were used for these attempts. Under Federation Aeronautique Internationale (FAI) classification the Ye-155 type belonged to class C1 (III), which specifies jet-powered land planes with unlimited maximum take-off weight. Records set included:

On 25 July 1973, Fedotov reached 35,230m with 1,000 kg payload, and 36,240 m with no load (an absolute world record).[15] In the thin air, the engines flamed out and the aircraft coasted in a ballistic trajectory by inertia alone. At the apex the speed had dropped to 75 km/h. :shock:

On 31 August 1977, "Ye-266M" again flown by Fedotov, set the recognized absolute altitude record for a jet aircraft under its own power.[16] He reached 37,650 metres (123,520 ft) at Podmoskovnoye, USSR in zoom climb (the absolute altitude record is different from the record for sustained altitude in horizontal flight). The aircraft was actually a MiG-25RB re-engined with the powerful R15BF2-300. It had earlier been part of the program to improve the aircraft's top speed that resulted in the MiG-25M prototype.[7]
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

apples to oranges sir....the sr71 was a low volume dedicated high-alt speed machine built at untold cost....f15 a reasonably priced high volume fighter
You are taking a stripped aircraft and taking it outside of its operational envelope to establish time to climb records..It was a demonstration and nothing else - so all is fair :). Btw, the SR's costing data is archived..Also, the F-15 was not "reasonably" priced, it was the most expensive fighter system ever acquired by the USAF until the F-22 came along...The SR-71 and the U-2 before it gave a window behind the iron-curtain so that a proper intelligence could be established on the Soviet Nuclear and military arsenal so as to not spend NATO and particularly the US into doom. Until Satellites came along the SR-71 was the only asset available (besides human intel) that could provide that high level information based on which they could develop their modernization and spending plans...The ability to go in and gather intelligence on many Soviet plans and bases without getting killed was a significant advantage the West enjoyed before satellites became the norm.

This Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) presentation was de-classified a few years ago, and showcases some of the performance and intelligence gained through the SR and its predecessors.

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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Singha wrote:given the distinct lack of interest in the 4 owner countries to fund the eurofighter updates vs the amt of effort usaf still puts to keep its F-16 and F-15 at the leading edge...one is doubtful if the meteor will be produced and deployed in numbers and same for the captor-M.

with no real war in sight and spain, royal navy and italy probably all going into a middle east or african war with JSF from their LPD ships....and the trusty old tornados ofcourse as paveway bomb trucks.
Well the Meteor is multi-platform so it will be a weapon of choice for the Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon and the F-35 operated by Italy, Britain and Japan. The problem is the quantity and cost. At north of $3 Million and the long-development---testing timeline results in a weapon that began its development at a time the Aim-120B was in the works and is barely going operational when more than 1000 Aim-120D's have been delivered with an improved seeker and ECCM coverage.

The Meteor is already operational with Saudi Typhoons from what has been reported and the Gripen I believe has deployed it in limited quantities (or plans to shortly).

The problem stems from the fact that they went down the road of 4.5 generation fighters with the intention of prioritizing systems over platform and using the money saved (by not risking a lot of investments on 5th generation technology ) to develop and rapidly procure force multiplying capability like a Long Range BVR missile etc. The reality however hasn't panned out for most Euro-Canard projects. Three different aircraft performing essentially the same mission has resulted in very uncompetitive costs per unit (The UK for example are spending without factoring development or weapons, $130 Million per aircraft for a 150-160 aircraft fleet), coupled with long delays in developing things like AESA radars and the meteor missile. The rafale and the typhoon for example could have been developed to sport a similar radar but they were not therefore different developmental programs for AESA adoption...

Meteor was something that was supposed to give a VFDR weapon relatively quickly based on the MICA RF seeker enhancements. However in the meantime the AMRAAM has gone from the Aim-120B to the C, C5, C7 and now the D. The USAF has already tested a couple of missiles with significantly enhanced ranges to the Aim-120D as has been reported earlier including one VFDR based Raytheon missile (USN being the first in the world to field a working VFDR system)...Boeing has also tested something in that with significantly longer ranges than the Aim-120D. The problem isn't with getting more range. The USAF with its 5th generation fleet doesn't need that urgently, the point has and will be to get the seekers, data links to be constantly upgraded against all sorts of Digital jamming techniques. With a 3+ Million price tag and limited production quantities it would be hard for the European partner developers to constantly upgrade this unless they commit more money to the meteor program. Japan is coming in and wanting to put its AESA seeker on the Meteor - that may be something they should consider given that Japan ahs a need, Aim-120D is not exportable and Japan has a ton of experience in putting AESA seekers on missiles. Otherwise Europe will continue to buy both MRAAM's (Aim-120 and MICA) while buying smaller quantities of the Meteor.

Boeing Phantom Works President Darryl Davis} also disclosed that the Phantoms had conducted four flight tests under the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's Triple Target Terminator (T3) program. The test vehicles, about the size of an AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile, flew "faster and farther" than an Amraam, Davis said, but he did not provide any other details.

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... w-projects

Faster than an Aim-120 (mach 4), that's getting into Phoenix missile territory... Also, based on the prior contract work performed by Boeing and looking into who they were working with as far as propulsion is concerned, its a pretty safe bet to assume that the four missiles tested employed a multi pulse rocket motor, that ATK has been offering to missile OEM's for some years now. Lockheed was not selected from the T3 program because DARPA wanted to test out 2 missiles with different propulsion designs. Boeing and Lockheed/Northrop Grumman, both designed around a multi-pulse rocket motor while Raytheon used ATK's VFDR in a similar solution to the Meteor.
Viv S wrote: The Meteor will be operational in 2018 with the Typhoon (though the Aim-120-C5 is still a fairly decent BVR weapon). Same for the Captor-M, while the AESA (scheduled to be operational in 2022) should provide a substantial bump in capability, the existing set is considered quite effective at pure air-to-air functions.
While The Aim-120C/5 is a good missile the enhancements post its development have concentrated on overcoming an intense and high quality digital jamming environment which is expected to have a negative influence on its Pk (The sort of self-protection and EW payloads the young flankers the typhoon is planning to intercept will carry). As a result the C7 changed the processors and incorporated significant changes to the radar signal processing. The new processors and the accompanying software (to my knowledge it was totally new as well) most likely means that AEPIP (Advanced Electronic Protection Program ) enhancements already designed/developed and AEPIP + enhancements in the works will only be possible in AIm-120C version 7 and beyond (D, D++, E etc). The C7 was also the first missile to be developed at the time the QF4 fleet was significantly upgraded using a somewhat classified DRFM jamming payload designed by MDS. Both the C7 and the Delta AMRAAM are routinely fired at QF4's supported by this Jamming payload. The P3I Phase 4 ( that went into the D) enhancements in the seeker are still classified but subtle hints have been dropped by the 'right' people leading some very reliable and arguable the best media sources (Hewson and gang) to suggest that it has a dual mode (active and passive) seeker, something China also claims btw for the SD10. The question then comes down to the processing power and the accompanying software and data links that allows a missile to efficiently switch between modes to overcome jamming.

Needless to say that unless the UK or other European customers of the F-35 significantly up the production, or reduce the cost of the Meteor they will most likely supplement their Meteors with Aim-120C7's and D's in the future (Or the MICA if it is ever made UAI compatible). With Tranche 1's future still up in the air, and no clear indication of the volume of AESA's and Meteors on order for out year deliveries Aim-120C7's may well come in and fill in the requirement at an affordable cost. There is also a question of actually paying the cash for getting the Meteor certified on the F-35. Lockheed and BaE aren't going to do it by themselves, and the RAF/RN having already dropped (by most accounts) their earlier plans of integrating the ASRAAM internally aren't looking good for some of the earlier suggested timelines while other customers are ponying up the cash and getting stuff done for their early block 4 weapons integration (JSM, SDBII, AARGMER etc)..
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Singha wrote:I think the typhoon is a better dogfighter than the rafale...it has a larger wing, more powerful engine, bigger canards, better t:w ratio ...
Depends what you want to do with it. At slower speeds and at or below 30K feet the Rafale will enjoy better AOA control while the Typhoon likes being up high at good speed, using its T2W and impressive acceleration. Thats where the F-15C likes to be as well, and because of the same - design goal/aim and thrust to weight. Everything about the Phoon has been designed around this aspect much like the Eagle. A larger radar, supercruise with recessed missile carriage and IRST.

They have tried out aerodynamic improvements for better AOA control and performance -

http://airbusdefenceandspace.com/newsro ... completed/

The Spanish also developed thrust vectoring for it as posted earlier. You design aircraft around the requirement as far as what you want to do with them. The rest is a delicate play with the trade space awarded to you. GE for example fully tested the AVEN 3-Dimenentional Multi-Axis Trust Vectoring that may possibly have been the first one of its kind in the world. Yet the ATF trade space did not allow that to be included due to rear-aspect RCS and IR signature requirements. So the trade space was small, and the best you could do was a unique 2D nozzle that met the RF signature requirements. Both the F-15A-C and the Eurofighter are designed around the radar and missile employment combination and if you look at the Eagle/Strike Eagle thats what has gotten the most attention along with the evolution of the AMRAAM over its life. The drivers were acceleration, acceleration, sustained G and turn performance (sustained turning over instantanious turning)..Actually the F-16 has better turn and high G management (can sustain for longer) than the Eagle but it lacks the ability to get past BVR (against an F-15) without external support.

Coming back to the use of Thrust Vectoring, here is a video of the MATV showing a very capable 9G energy managing, TURN fighter deploying the AVEN 3-D thrust vectoring system. All reports spoke of the tactical benefit of such a move however as the design has evolved the trade-space for upgrades or enhancements has not allowed this to come onboard for the thrust has been to certify larger payloads, better sensors (Both A2A, and A2G) and EW payloads (Falcon Edge and other available DEWS)...The IAF to its credit took what the Soviets had done in a similar area and put it onto a fighter..the west had just one unique customer for their wares that has tried to do that and that customer did a lot of firsts for the global fleet such as DEWS (active and passive), AESA and T2W improvements...At the end of the day you work in your trade space and with the resources available..There is no shame in loosing to an advanced flanker with TV in a dogfight where pretty much everybody regards it as having achieved near perfection...Even the PAKFA/T-50 and whatever they develop to replace the Mig-29 would find it tough to match or exceed the performance of the Su-30MKI or Su-35..The goal and lesson should be to avoid this without a tactical edge and you do that by investing in areas that give you the "force-multiplier" effect, i.e. sensors, weapons, situational awareness enhancements and Low observable technology that gives you an edge and as a combination imparts a significantly higher PK to your Long or Medium Range weapon due to the freedom to maneuver that stealth and integrated avionics provide you. The trade-space variance between soviet fighters and US fighter have always existed..The Soviets and now the Russians NEVER trade away range while the USAF that does not have homeland defense as a primary design driver does trade that away given that extreme range requirements are applicable in one of the four theaters that it designs its fighters around..Additionally Russia (and SU before it) is only interested in stealth as far as it makes it challenging for the enemy to detect the aircraft in an air-air setting..This is because Russia's adversaries do not have a very dense IADS setup nor plan on getting it. The USAF however is the opposite, the primary driver of stealth for its tactical fighters and strike aircraft is to have enough to overcome a very aggressive IAD build up and modernization in both EUCOM (Russia) and PACOM (China) with implications in the CENTCOM (Iran)...So short of fluidic thrust vectoring the USAF will never trade away a LOAN or the Raptors 2D-TVC for the PAKFA/T-50's 3D TV setup similar to the Su-35..In fact if you look at the rear aspect of the YF-23, F-23A, and the latest Lockheed design for the F-15/F-22 replacement study, they all make even larger trades in the rear aspect RF and IR than the F-22 and F-35 showcasing the willingness to trade further performance to achieve better rear-aspect stealth.



Rear aspect trades ---

Strong Trade

Image

Image

Image

Image

Intermediate Trade

Image

Image

Don't Give a F#$K Trade

Image

The same trades are applies to requirements and thresholds in areas like sensor performance, weapons carriage, agility, altitude requirement etc etc etc .. Interestingly there have been significant changes over the years on how these trades are applied..The ATF for example was chosen much like the IAF has chosen the MMRCA..That is the evaluators evaluated 2 proposals, judged which proposals met the requirements and then the acquisition folks picked the one that had the lowest risk and lowest cost attached to it. Both YF22 and YF23 exceeded ALL parameters yet there is considerable information out there that suggests that while the YF23 was more of a "GREEN" design i.e. less maturity was demonstrated in the PAV (one of the 2 weapons bays wasn't even present on the PAV) it also by most accounts had more "potential" but it would have taken a ton of money to get that. As acquisition and design practices have advanced (The ATF was essentially an 80's technology, using 80's acquisition processes mostly designed by the Packard commission) there have been less specific but more over-reaching goals and requirements..Even the ATF had no weight requirement, just performance requirement so the trade-space with MTOW and empty weight was very very larger hence the difference between the two PAV's in design weight. The F-35 required mission-effectiveness and overall success rate..Things like AOA, turn rate, speed, supersonic footprint was all left out and the vendors were free to trade as long as the complex modeling of the SUM of all that showed the proposals met the design requirements.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Singha wrote:seems the french made the right call long back by forking out their own rafale and emphasizing its payload , range, sensors, maritime version and strike potential over the pure play raptorski that ended up being the typhoon- a plane without much of a real role in colonial wars going forward.

UK is going to enter its next major conflict with JSFs on QE2 is what I feel. by the time they are done integrating all tornado weapons on tiffy, the JSFs will be operational in RN.
The Typhoon is more akin to the F15C (with obvious improvements due to more technology being available). The Raptor has very good low speed, high AOA performance thanks to the control surfaces, body lift and aerodynamic profile that while not being LERX creates a similar affect. The ATF requirement was NO TVC, and the designs were to meet the performance though aerodynamic surfaces alone. The YF-22 was designed to meet the low speed AOA requirements of the ATF without the use of Thrust vectoring, and the AOA requirement of 60 degrees (more than most western aircraft). TV improved pitch rates so made everything better. As they transitioned they were able to modify the aerodynamic surfaces during design maturity to more absorb TV capability.

The Typhoon has no LERX and no TVC...although the latter capability has been developed as a prototype and the former flown in a test jet.

The Rafale will be a much better strike fighter..Ideally what they (RAF) should acquire is the F-35A in addition to the B, but I doubt the politics and BaE would let it happen. From a coalition perspective the typhoon performs alongside the F-15C and F-22A and if you look at the way the aircraft the typhoon works with most of the time when it is stateside.

Having seen the F-22A demo twice, I haven't seen anything in the west that comes close in the slow, High AOA and post-stall domain..but plenty of testing has shown that to obtain that performance all that was required to exploit that envelope was AVEN equivalent and a modern FBW (X-31, F-16 VISTA/MATV and F-18 HARV showed this)..

There should be no illusion that the Typhoon that was pitted against the MKI was a 4+ gen aircraft that went head to head against another 4+ aircraft, so there is no real surprise that one aircraft performed well in an area where it clearly is ahead of most aircraft in the world. The UK chose to develop a 4+ generation aircraft and not invest in the trades associated with low observability. However what works against them is that some of the things that were to help the typhoon in terms of the money saved from a 4th +gen vs 5th gen design haven't yet occurred..Thinks like the E-SCAN radar and the Meteor integration. With those the Typhoon would perform much better against advanced flankers in the air to air domain than it did in this exercise. By the time the UK gets an E-SCAN radar it would be around 2 decades late compared to the F-15C and F-2 and around 15 years late compared to the F-16 and F-22.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Viv S wrote: Yes, it was working on 3-4 ship formations but became buggy when that number was increased further. The fixes will be implemented along with the Block 3F software (in 2017) as I said in my previous post.
F35 currently does two-ship fusion using an LPI/LPD data link in MADL while 4-ship is handled by Link-16. Four ship MADL fusion patch flew last month and is expected to be ported over to 2b jets before the Christmas break. 2017 and 3f increases processing power and sensor envelope/capability..The decision to correct the 4-ship fusion MADL shortcoming outside of the block development program was taken around April of this year. Basically the 'solution' which is entirely a software patch is already flying onboard USAF's 3I aircraft and once they verify that it works the operational USMC fleet will get it as a patch, so that they'll have 4-ship without waiting for block 3f to be ported to them. Of course apart from the F-22, there is no operational aircraft anywhere that can share a full Situational Awareness picture including sensor-tracks in real time using a directional Low probability of intercept/ Low probability of detection waveform apart from maybe the B-2..

Sensor fusion is a function of the SLOC...compared to the f22 that also claims sensor fusion the f35 has more than 4 times the airframe software volume..That means capability and definitely something to look at when you compare the sensor fusion scope of one aircraft with another...Unless someone somewhere has found a way to fuse hardware with processing without the use of software the software footprint will continue to drive next generation aircraft development cost and time.

Boeing PR claims sensor fusion in block 3 Superhornet and it is most likely true but in comparison to the F-35s 8 millions line if airframe code the rhino has less than 1.5 million. Not all integrated avionics architectures are created equal
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Singha »

i read long back the mirage2000-5 has a system that permits 8 of them to exchange data in the air?
how many gripens can network using their tidls datalink?

or are these very basic compared to the f-35 or new systems?
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by NRao »

Rogozin briefs Putin on military aircraft and manufacturing
Russian President Vladimir Putin and Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin arriving

SOT, Dmitri Rogozin, Russian Deputy Prime Minister (Russian): "We found a solution on the basis of research by Perm Motors Group. We can create new engines based on a gas generator which will allow us to expand in the segment of aircraft from 9 to 16 tons. It means that we will be able to change the engines of the Sukhoi Super Jet 100, create a new engine to replace the Ukrainian one in the Mi-26 helicopter and to install a new product in the prospective Russian-Chinese helicopter. We can also create new equipment for the bigger version of MS-201 aircraft which can carry 210 passengers."

W/S Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin speaking to President Vladimir Putin *CUTAWAY*

SOT, Dmitri Rogozin, Russian Deputy Prime Minister (Russian): "We can reach the same results by making improvements to the gas generator which is already used, for example, in the Ka-32 helicopter. We are working on this generator for the strategic bomber, but we can also apply it to military transport aviation and to the Russian-Chinese heavy long-range wide-body aircraft in the future. I have already told our Chinese colleagues that we can do our work without the third parties and they took it seriously."

M/S Russian President Vladimir Putin listening to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin *CUTAWAY*

SOT, Dmitri Rogozin, Russian Deputy Prime Minister (Russian): "Talking about the engine development for ships, you know about all the work, you issued an assignment. The import-substituting production of gas generators which we previously received from the Ukrainian Zorimash Project is operational in Rybinsk now. We are ready to begin to fill the needs of our fleet in 2017-2018."

M/S Russian President Vladimir Putin listening to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin *CUTAWAY*

SCRIPT

Russian President Vladimir Putin and Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitri Rogozin met for a briefing on import substitution in aircraft and naval manufacturing in Moscow on Monday.

Rogozin reported that Russia can still reach its production goals by working with gas generators. Further, the Sukhoi Super jet 100, intended to replace older planes in Russia's domestic market, will get new engines. The Mi-26 helicopter will also be fitted with "a new engine to replace the Ukrainian one" and new components will be installed in the prospective Russian-Chinese helicopter.

The deputy prime minister stated that progress had been made in "import-substituting the production of gas generators which we previously received from the Ukrainian Zorimash Project." The new production site is up and running at Rybinsk and the "needs of [the Russian] fleet in 2017-2018" will be met.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Singha wrote:i read long back the mirage2000-5 has a system that permits 8 of them to exchange data in the air?
how many gripens can network using their tidls datalink?

or are these very basic compared to the f-35 or new systems?
Linking is what the system is designed to allow. However linking is only the enabler of what happens after aircraft are linked. The MADL differs from TIDLS on a few things..First of all, it is designed around a very high degree of processing power and volume of information so its meant to send across full SAR or ISAR data for example or allow 4 F-35's to work collaboratively to narrow down and ID an RF threat on the ground or the air all the while reducing the emissions from any single aircraft. Given the sheer amount of data each F-35 can gather (4 EODAS, 1 EOTS, 10-12 Passive EW RF antennas covering everything from UHF/VHF to L bands, X-Band FCR etc) the main focus of MADL is in high volume data transfer using a digitally controlled directional waveform (Or an AESA aperture if you can call it that). Basically the CONOPS is to link up a four ship (or more) on the ground and then the jets depart. Ever since the F-22/ATF tactics were developed a stealth fighter four ship was designed to fly at large distances (apart/seperation) so as to avoid detection/delay it and to gather the maximum amount of data from an airspace coverage point of view. As a result the only time (minus a dogfight) you see a wingman on an F-35 or F-22A is when he is alongside ready to takeoff. They have a few nautical miles of separation between them. So MADL is designed for medium range and high data transfer rates.

Another area where it differs is in its LPI/LPD nature. Its designed around the low probability of intercept and detection and that requires a lot of investments into seeing what the adversary is fielding as far as passive detection is concerned and playing around with the waveforms available to you and overlapping that with the other challenges such as range and data-volumes. The only system that compares to it is the F-22's IFDL but that does not and did not have the ability to share such large set of data among aircraft and that does not allow to the best of my knowledge the ability to do fusion with that data that is allow one aircrafts Core processors to work collaboratively in real time using data obtained by another aircraft's sensors..although the F-22 may get that as an upgrade.

As far as how many aircraft can link up? I think the link up is built around a 4 ship but can expand to 8 if required. Other than that nothing has been released but with the spreads of 8 aircraft you will most likely get out of range given how separated they fly. The biggest advantage is that unlike the Lin-16 used by all other western fighters, MADL is directional thanks to its apertures located 360 degrees, allowing it to to be discreet and concentrate all its energy/power in one direction towards the intended recipient.

MADL is only one option available to the F-35, standard bi-directional Link-16 is also provided to communicate with the rest of the fleet of F-15's, F-16's, Typhoons, Rafale's, M2Ks etc etc. Programs are on to develop a BUS for a waveform management to allow F-15's to take information from IFDL and MADL and utilize it while sending their own information across passively using Link-16. Demo's have occurred and plans are being drawn up under the MAPS effort to develop gateway-pods to allow 5th to 4th connectivity.

The emphasis on utilizing MADL has been to do so totally passively from a pilot-workload perspective. Every-time an aircraft enters airspace and is within range it automatically begins to contribute to the common battle space picture being generated by the multi-ship. This automation and distributed sensor deployment does a few things -

1) Enables 'true' distributed ops and ensures gracefull sensor net degradation - One aircraft is not emitting RF energy in a 360 degrees by having radars in wings, back and in the nose yet still gets a very comprehensive 360 degrees view that is much beyond what a single ship would be able to generate. The overall goal (a long term ambition) is to have multiple waveforms put into smart weapons, MALD (Decoy's and jammers) and other UAV's so that there is a very dense sensor net in place and air-superiority is gained from that sensor net..If one waveform is jammed or knocked out there is no loss to the sensor net, as another waveform picks up. At the moment the major waveforms besides the weapons link is the Lin-16, MADL, IFDL and USN's NIFCC-A TTNT waveform..but software based efforts are ongoing and Darpa has the lead there. The drive for that "sensor Net" results from a deep rooted belief in the USAF that the AWACS is not a viable platform against a near pear so Situational Awareness (or early warning) would have to be gotten from more survivable and robust means and that means distributing the sensors into a sensor net so as to avoid single points of failure that results from a loss of an E-3 or an E-8. Also an interesting point to note, There is enough open source material and pilot claims out there that at Red-Flag the F-22A in many instances has better quality data on the threat than an E-3 or E-8 to a point where it has felt a need to discreetly communicate that back to the command and control setup. Thats an aircraft that has "INFNANT" fusion compared to the F-35 so you can we'll imaging the benefits of truly distributing the sensor net beyond the F-35 and into UAV's, UCAV's and heck even smaller JASSM based decoy's and sensor UAV's..

2 ) Multiple sensors attacking a 'problem' from different altitudes, directions ensures that the data obtained is the most comprehensive and no one sensor needs to emit as loud and give away its location.

To the best of my knowledge the French upgraded their M2K's to a MIDS data link.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Just to add the point about future BVR Missile technology development in the West/US. Most of these things have been demonstrated as stand alone or integrated into a prototype weapon.

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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by SaiK »

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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by SaiK »

http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems ... able1.html
why didn't they go with nuke power to mars?
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

NRao wrote:
LM will share the object codes to integrate Israeli
It cost the Israelis just shy of a cool half a billion to integrate stuff into the JSF. Not to talk of years of negotiations.

IF at all the JSF comes to India it just may be better with the IN. IMVVVHO, more bang for the buck.

The best way to integrate stuff with the JSF in the 2020's is to make your weapon UAI compatible. UAI was designed to break the cycle of improved weapons carriage coming with scucessive software blocks because the complexity of integrating the weapon, then upgrading the software block meant that you could only do 1 economically at a time..This left new weapons to be clumped together and rolled into the aircraft at a certain time that was determined by a host of other things such as the extent of the overall upgrade, MLU etc etc...How many times have we heard, that so and so weapon will be ready by block 4, 6 years from now..The UAI was specifically designed to reverse this trend in weapons integration. If you design or upgrade your weapon to be UAI compatible, all you need to do is perform store separation and establish the physical launch envelope, there is no mission-system integration work. The Weapon talks to the UAI interface onboard the weapon that then converts the information/data to something the mission computers can comprehend. This testing can either be performed by the operator or by the joint test team. They don't plan on (Once full UAI capability is delivered in 2022) integrating weapon, one at a time like was/is standard practice. Basically it is like plugging a new scanner to a computer, as long as its UAI compatible, UAI interface takes care of the rest. The SDBII was integrated onto the F-15E using UAI in a matter of a few months at a fraction of the cost and man hours it would have taken through the normal route. Same with the JASSM-ER and the LRASM has and will be integrated into the B-1B the same way. The Turkish, French and the Norwegians are designing and upgrading their weapons (there own weapons in the AASM, JSM and SOM) to be compatible with the UAI.

Phase I of UAI (currently operational) covers AIr-to-Ground weapons with the Phase II concentrating on Air-to-Air. Future phases will include Pods, sensors, datalinks and other stuff that is usually packaged into upgrades.

Image

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If you want more advanced source codes to make broader changes to the system then it will get problematic. The British and the Israelis had to lobby extremely hard to get what they got and these are development partners or the closest allies of the US. Its not a matter of Lockheed agreeing to it, the security stuff is the property of the US Government.

If you want complete freedom and autonomy you have to OWN the system as is the case with the MKI, otherwise you have to shell out a ton of money to obtain that and its money better spent elsewhere. If you want 100% customizability to upgrade you either buy the Su-30 or Mig-29 (or F-16 F-18 etc ), or spend a lot of cash to get the Rafale or F-35 (More for the latter because it is more modern and frankly in more demand)...There is a cost point above which you don't do these sort of things and that is why the MMRCA was from an acquisition point of view, unsustainable..The MOD was trying to do things that were/are not possible (Full TOT and production) with western aircraft at an affordable cost.
Last edited by brar_w on 14 Aug 2015 07:38, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

SaiK wrote:http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems ... able1.html
why didn't they go with nuke power to mars?
Cost, and the complexity of the entire event. The goal is to get to Mars by a certain date and the mechanism chosen reflects that. In fact the Propulsion side is relatively low risk given the work already done on the SLS (A motor without a mission atm)...
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by TSJones »

what would be nice is an ion drive for manned deep space missions.....

http://nasawatch.com/archives/2015/08/n ... d-ast.html

the problem is getting enough electrical power to the engine.......

solar panels can't do it.

we need nuclear power but but social and community opinion won't allow it.

with an engine like vasimr, we could get to Mars in less than 6 weeks instead of six months with a chemical rocket.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by TSJones »

Australia wins Red Flag exercise

F-15 Eagle knocks down drone in Crazy Ivan manuever.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/08/12 ... anne-moos/

No respect what so ever.

Much chest thumping by the winning side.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by srai »

Speaking of UAI, the Indian version is called Universal Pylon Interface Computer (UPIC) and is planned for LCA Mk.2.

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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

srai wrote:Speaking of UAI, the Indian version is called Universal Pylon Interface Computer (UPIC) and is planned for LCA Mk.2.
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Not quite. While some standardization (I believe there is a MIL STD in that) has occurred in the computing aspect of the hardware/ Pylon interface the UAI does not address that and is really agnostic to what SMMC an aircraft carries. Its a software driven "driver" process where some of the top OEM's in the west (ALL major US weapon designers and some international such as Sagem, Kongsberg etc through the Nato-UAI effort) have come together and agreed upon a interface control document with which every weapon and aircraft they offer will have its mission software compliant. Software changes have already been made on the F-15E (pilot aircraft) and the F-16 fleet (ALL NATO Block 50 fleet iirc) to account for this..

The only thing OEM"s need to do is be compliant to the latest UAI version which essentially means upgrading their software with the system unique UAI code at any point in time during its block upgrade (The F-15E and F-16 have received there upgrades while the UAI specific code will be introduced into the F-35's software with the block 4 capability)..If they are, then any weapon also compliant with it will be plug and play...No need to make any mission computer software changes until the next UAI is agreed upon. This is irrespective if your pylon interface is standard or not..all it needs to be is compliant. Its the best possible solution when you have multiple OEM's making weapons, aircraft and the decision process is controlled by multiple nations. So if you show up with your own ARM, you do not need to tweak the fighter software, just make the missile compatible with the launch platform, establish launch envelope and perform carriage testing and you are good to go. You do not need to open up your mission computers or share codes so that the end user can integrate its weapons..As long as both sides are compliant with the required UAI software block there need not be any expensive integration.

The step ahead is to get all OEM's together under one unmbrella for "ALL software" that covers mission computing beyond interfacing with the weapon. That effort is again something where the Pentagon has brought together all major prime contractors under the FACE effort to have true open mission computing architectures where the process is akin to writing APS for Android or iOS..Basically a common interface where one OEM can pick up from other's work or one developer can integrate its proprietary hardware without any trouble.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by TSJones »

Has everybody heard that Warren Buffet is buying Precision Cast Parts Corp? They make top quality jet engine/airplane fittings and parts.

He thinks that's a growth industry?
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

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Singha wrote:yes I am well aware they have not been able to reach ge404 or al31 (early 90s) tech level as yet. but unlike india they are pouring money and people into both engines and airframe designs (avic, comac, chengdu) and running a contractor-grade industrial espionage op apart from recruiting ukr/rus scientists who are willing to help out. they are throwing everything at the wall in the hope that something will stick. univ r&d progs must have been beefed up with sinic top profs in american univs being offered kings ransom to come back start groups. china already sends most grad students to stem depts in massa and part of their brief is to pickup whatever they can for the motherlands efforts.

today china has perhaps the most new aerospace progs among all nations - j20, Y20 heavy lifter, j35, j10-x, few stealth drones, ucavs, a range of radars and missiles.....even if its not enough to scare the khan, its a deep threat against welterweight boxers like us who cannot even move a couple of domestic projects like IJT and LCA into FOC without 100 rounds around the farm.
GE F404 is at best a late 70's or 80's tech..By the Nineties the prototype ATF engines were already flying and GE had a variable cycle engine flying on two very different fighters..By the mid to late 90's 5th generation engines had begun series production. .Some of the capability developed, particularly in the fields of turbine life and reliability) for the ATF engines were rolled into the F404 family and resulted in the F414 (and further capability would be rolled in with the EPE/EDE upgrades) but both those engines are pretty much late 70's to early 80's clean sheet designs..Tremendous advances have been made in propulsion technology since particularly in the area of reliability and efficiency..THe VAATE effort will surely be rolled into these class of engines most likely beginning with the bomber that we'll know more about next month.



As an indication how tough "ENGINES" are consider the fact that both GE and Pratt and Whitney, first set up teams to explore Three stream turbofan VC engines around the early to mid 1980's (and had pure S&T efforts that date back even prior to that), and they are only setting records in the 2013+ time-frame. Propulsion takes time, and they test the $hit out of it before certifying it for production as the risk of hedging your entire fighter program on an unreliable engine is extreme (as has been found out in the past).
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by NRao »

yes I am well aware they have not been able to reach ge404 or al31 (early 90s) tech level as yet. but unlike india they are pouring money and people into both engines and airframe designs (avic, comac, chengdu) and running a contractor-grade industrial espionage op apart from recruiting ukr/rus scientists who are willing to help out. they are throwing everything at the wall in the hope that something will stick. univ r&d progs must have been beefed up with sinic top profs in american univs being offered kings ransom to come back start groups. china already sends most grad students to stem depts in massa and part of their brief is to pickup whatever they can for the motherlands efforts.
Will not help China. For two main reasons.

First, as China makes progress, so will the others. So, for China to "catch up" will need doubling her efforts and knowing what the targets are

Secondly, this from MatSci folks who are there taking part in some discussions, there are some things never discussed even between companies within a nation. At a higher level a few items are managed by a higher body (eg; USAF, which has a robust research wing of her own), so the work being done by tow entities are kept separate, yet focused on what the AF needs.

Add to that the umpteen research centers all across a nation like the US. And, then culture, risk taking, private funds, donated time, etc. It is a huge effort that even China will find it difficult to overcome.

BTW, stealing in this field will only provide what you stole. It has no bearing on the past nor the future, both of which are crucial for continuity.

It is a very, very complex topic.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by NRao »

Under nations have interests. :wink:

Stepping Up Military, Defense Cooperation? Israeli And Jordanian Aircraft Fly in Tandem To US
Foxtrot Alpha reports that five Jordanian air force F-16s were seen flying alongside Israel air force KC-707 fuel tankers in the mid-Atlantic. The fleet of aircraft were traveling to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada, where they were scheduled to take part in an air-to-air combat training exercise hosted by the United States for its military allies.
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Austin wrote:No matter what the stealth is even Stealth Aircraft needs to work with escorted Jammer Support in IADS environment :wink:

From Lessons of Kosovo: More B-2 Bombers? by Chris Hellman, Weekly Defense Monitor, Volume 3, Issue No. 24
http://www.bu.edu/globalbeat/usdefense/ ... 62499.html

Stealth technology did not bring about the anticipated reduction in support aircraft needed for combat operations.
After the March 27 crash of an F-117A "Stealth" fighter, both the F-117As and B-2s begin flying with escorts of Navy EA-6B radar jamming aircraft.
{ note the Crash , it was shot by SA-3 of Zoltani Dani Fame ;) }

The Air Force decided to retire its fleet of radar-jamming EF-111 "Ravens" in 1991 primarily because it envisioned a fleet of stealthy F-117As, B-2s and F-22 fighters operating without the jamming support needed by conventional aircraft.


The Pentagon's reversal on the need for radar-jammers left the Navy's fleet of fleet of 91 EA-6B "Prowlers," -- 30 of which were used to support air operations in Kosovo -- overburdened by the unexpected new requirements to escort F-117As and B-2s. As a result, the Navy has stated it will need at least 50 additional jammer aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Dennis G. Haines, Air Combat Command's director of combat operations, acknowledged the significance of the Air Force's lack of a jamming capability. At a conference on June 24, the General said, "stealth reduces the signature of an aircraft but it does not make it invisible. We have really neglected [electronic warfare]."

This ability to operate autonomously has long been a big selling point used by B-2 supporters. Repeatedly the Air Force stated how the B-2 dramatically cut operational costs by reducing support requirements. In a now famous chart, two B-2s with a combined crew of four armed with smart munitions were shown to be capable of performing the same mission that would normally require 55 aircraft of all types and over 100 aircrew.

Yet in practice, the B-2 did not operate alone during Operation Allied Force.

Flying out of Whiteman AFB in pairs, B-2s required mid-air refuelings for each leg of the 30 hour round trip mission.
Over the target area, B-2s were escorted by F-15s which provided air cover, F-16s to provide fire suppression against enemy anti-aircraft systems, as well as support from airborne air traffic controllers and systems which monitored enemy communications, as well as their "Prowler" escort. In all, often more than a dozen aircraft supported B-2 missions.


Of course they do, the EM spectrum is large and stealth is only one aspect of how to defeat it. Hence both the F-22 and F-35 (and the PAKFA and practically all planned stealth aircraft) have an EW and EA component, both organic and support. That EA and EW component is layered and multi-spectral involving a mix of stand off, stand in, and cyber capabilities again organic, and support (NGJ, MALD-J etc). There has been (post the B-2) another category added in the penetrating EA and this is most likely a platform (P-AEA) that can both exist in a denied environment and execute EA/Cyber ops while being survivable despite that.

Both the F-22 and F-35 have an organic EA capability that balances EMCON concerns that accompany Low-Obvservability requirements (and have since the F-117, B-2 and other stealth experiences) with the need to conduct EA to defeat an emitting threat in addition to spoofing emitters.

On the F-22A David Fulghum (AW&ST) writes When coupled with the electronic techniques generator in an aircraft, the radar can project jamming, false targets and other false information into enemy sensors. Ranges for electronic attack equal the AESA radar plus that of the enemy radar. That could allow electronic attack at ranges of 150 mi. or more. The ability to pick out small targets at a long distance also lets AESA-equipped aircraft find and attack cruise missiles, stealth aircraft and small UAVs..

This is obviously what it could do way back, currently there is a prototype cyber pod being developed for the F-35 as well (Janes has reported on it)...but the P-AEA mission has been attributed to a classified Boeing platform and the USAF has been quite clear on the Stand-OFF EA mission going into the LRS-S given that it is not exactly "happy" with the EA-18G.

In a Low-Observable/Stealth platform your emissions are the first thing you "take charge off" for its pointless to invest millions per airframe to get the RCS down and then give things away to sensors like the AN/ALR-94 and similar western and eastern systems. The "art" is to blend this and leave room to grow as one side of the equation requires balancing. Sure, on paper it sounds great ...We'll do 360 degrees JAMMING and will use along with stealth. But how exactly will all the emission not be DETECTED especially when the point to conduct Electronic attack i.e. broadcast in a frequency that actually works against an emitting threat? This is the exact reason why the B-2 uses support instead of 100% organic EA.

There are different types of EA/EW systems each deployed to serve a purpose. Would you want the B-2 to carry a large jammer for organic self escort? NO..You want to deal that with through support or best avoid the 'hot spots' at the time of mission planning. The NGJ equipped EA-18G of 2020 will have 140 KW (60KW (pods are closer to 90KW at altitude as per latest reports) x 2 NGJ pods + 20KW x 1 99's) to use up the Gallium Nitride based high power jammers..Yet the USAF doesn't want it on its platforms because its not the 'right type of jamming' for the sort of missions it expects to execute..The Navy will support the USAF because they have an agreement but the support will be different and "stand off" as opposed to the 'escort the strike package' type of mission the USN will utilize its own F-18 and EA18 combo. Hence the USAF was unhappy with the EA--18G choice. The USAF wanted the Navy to pick an advanced Prowler that could stay in the fight (loiter) longer and wasn't a tanker drain. The Navy wanted an aircraft that even with he payload could 'keep up' with its super hornets (enough cruising speed) and were willing to sacrifice range and loiter time for it. This led the USAF to basically begin development of its own stand-off EA platform that is most likely the classified system Sweetmann thinks is a part of the LRS-S (Long range strike system). As soon as the NGB (Next Gen. Bomber) was dropped so was the B-52 based Core Component Jammer leaving many to think that the requirement would get rolled into the LRS-B based family of systems.
Cosmo_R
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

If not already posted, an interesting read on the Israeli experience thus far on the JSF
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/isr ... 35s-02381/
brar_w
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Defense Industry Daily is an aggregator run of news and it has the F-35 deliveries wrong. The F-35 arrives in Israel between October and December of next year and not sometime in 2017 as the website claims. They also have the costing information wrong especially when a 10 minute search on the FMS website can point to actual fixed price amounts for those aircraft and the associated weapons package.
Last edited by brar_w on 17 Aug 2015 17:26, edited 1 time in total.
Philip
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Philip »

Russia Sends MiG-31 Jets to Syria - Media

14:37 17.08.2015(
Russian officials have not yet confirmed the information.
Russia reportedly supplied Syria with supersonic MiG-31 fighter/interceptors, partly fulfilling the bilateral contract of 2007, BGNNews.com reported.

In 2007, Russia and Syria signed two agreements worth 1 billion dollars for the supply of MiG-29M and MiG-31. The deliveries of the MiG-29M’s are underway, but those of the MiG-31’s were reportedly delayed because of pressure from Israel.

An Ilyushin Il-78 Midas air force tanker and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-31 Foxhound fighter-interceptors

Russian MiG-31s Perform Unique Non-Stop Flight With Three Aerial Refuelings
In 2009, Russia confirmed its intention to fulfill the deal and deliver 8 MiG-31 fighters to Damascus.

According to media sources, six MiG-31 jets have already landed in Damascus. The website connects Russia's decision with its intention to help Syria in its fight against the Islamic State terrorist group.

A group of four MiG-31 jets is capable of controlling the air space to a distance of 800-900 km.

The MiG-31 is a supersonic interceptor aircraft built for use by the Soviet Air Forces in the 1970s. It is designed to detect and destroy air targets at extremely low, low, medium and high altitudes, at day and night time and in any adverse weather conditions.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150817/ ... z3j4lHBmYN
brar_w
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

An interesting contrast by the Air Force Association's Magazine, of the two competing bomber teams for the LRS-B program that is expected to announce an award in September (although an team may have already been chosen by now)..including confirmation on a host of other capability that has previously been held close to the chest..
Any day now, the Air Force will award the Long-Range Strike Bomber contract, worth well in excess of $50 billion. Two industry teams—a Boeing-led partnership, including Lockheed Martin, and another led by Northrop Grumman—are competing for the work. The choice could well shape the military aviation landscape in the US for decades to come.

The teams are technically well-matched. Both have styled themselves as the bomber company. Boeing makes that claim based on its history with the B-17 and B-29 in World War II, the B-47 in the Korean War era, and the B-52 from the 1950s on, as well as its experience with the B-1, built by its “heritage” company, Rockwell International. Northrop Grumman built the B-2, the most recent American bomber, and the only one built with stealth technology as its driving design feature. Given that the B-52, B-1, and B-2 are all serving today, each with a robust program of upgrades in the pipeline, both teams can claim to be the “incumbent.”

Chief of Staff Gen. Mark A. Welsh III, who won’t get a vote on the selection, said in April he had visited both design shops before proposals were submitted and was “impressed” and “confident” they were each on the right track. Both teams have long experience in building and maintaining stealthy military airplanes. Technical proposals are just one part of the LRS-B decision, however....
Why Boeing Will Win



If you wanted to build a “dream team” to develop and produce the LRS-B, the Boeing/Lockheed Martin partnership would be it.

Boeing is one of the largest aircraft manufacturers in the world, with a global supply base and vast experience at controlling costs on large-scale projects. It is highly skilled at integrating programs with tens of thousands of moving parts, and is a world innovator in materials and manufacturing sciences. It knows how to tap the world industrial base to find the best manufacturing skills and the best price. It also has a longstanding “bomber culture” stemming from its successes with the B-52 and B-1.

Lockheed Martin is almost synonymous with the terms “stealth” and “secret.” Its Skunk Works division is largely responsible for the specialized technologies that made the F-117 and F-22 work so well in combat. Boeing and Lockheed Martin (and General Dynamics) collaborated on the F-22, with Lockheed Martin building most of the jet, including its stealth edges, while Boeing built the wings and aft fuselage.

The two companies are the main suppliers of the Air Force’s existing combat air forces, having also built (themselves and their “heritage” companies acquired in mergers) the F-15, F-16, B-52, and B-1. Boeing and Lockheed Martin are also the prime contractors and integrators on the KC-46 tanker and F-35 fighter; the two largest and most complex programs in the Air Force’s acquisition plans, together accounting for some 1,942 future USAF aircraft. Industry officials say they think the LRS-B may be able to use large amounts of software generated for the F-35’s sensor integration and mission systems; thus saving substantial money through reuse.

The F-35 program, after a bumpy start, has—since its 2010 rebaselining—stuck to its budget, and Lockheed Martin expects that the fifth generation jet will retail at about the same price as fourth generation jets as early as 2018.

Lockheed Martin is also steeped in classified airplane skills; the Skunk Works having been involved in numerous known and undisclosed secret projects. The most recent of these is the RQ-170 Sentinel, about which USAF will say almost nothing, but which is credited with the stealth surveillance that brought about the 2011 killing of Osama bin Laden. Pentagon leaders have credited the “Skunk Works model”—of innovation, small teams, reuse of existing technology, and clearly defined goals—as the basis for Pentagon R&D efforts in the coming years. Boeing’s own “Phantom Works” will also contribute cutting-edge technology to the LRS-B.

Lockheed Martin also builds the C-130J, a stalwart of tactical airlift since the 1950s, routinely upgraded since, and is also upgrading the C-5 Galaxy with new engines and systems. In the field, these upgrades have drastically improved the C-5’s performance. For the Navy, Boeing makes the F/A-18 Super Hornet strike fighter and EA-18G Growler electronic warfare jets, as well as the brand-new P-8A Poseidon patrol craft. The Hornet family is delivering on time and at budget.

Northrop Grumman, on the other hand, has only delivered a handful of all-up production airplanes—RQ-4 Global Hawks—in the last few years, focused mainly on building pieces of airplanes for other companies and performing electronics upgrades or conversions.

It’s worth noting that Lockheed Martin defeated Northrop Grumman the last time they competed in a comparable program. Lockheed Martin’s F-22 beat Northrop Grumman’s F-23 in the Advanced Tactical Fighter program in 1991. Though the F-23 was deemed technically acceptable, Donald B. Rice, Secretary of the Air Force at the time, said he thought Lockheed Martin had a better plan for managing the program; specifically for dealing with developmental setbacks.

Besides bringing large programs to fruition, Boeing and Lockheed Martin are sitting on quite a lot of cash—five times the revenue of Northrop Grumman—enabling them to go shopping for other companies and giving them the flexibility to invest their own funds in the LRS-B. Pentagon leaders have said for several years that they expect companies to invest in the LRS-B and put their own hides on the line; Boeing and Lockheed Martin can do this far more easily than can Northrop Grumman, whose sales have been declining.

Given their broad experience in large-scale programs, the relevance of their recent experience and success in fighting down costs, Boeing and Lockheed Martin seem a good bet for the LRS-B win.
Why Northrop Grumman Will Win

Northrop Grumman clearly has the chops to build the bomber. The B-2 was no mean technical feat, launched at a time when some of its critical enabling capabilities were rated at a Technology Readiness Level of 4 or 5. (The Air Force is demanding a minimum TRL of 6 for LRS-B technologies).

When the B-2 program was truncated in the late 1990s at only 20 (later 21) airplanes, Congress made a provision to keep funding Northrop Grumman’s knowledge of how to make the B-2 even better, and preserve the ability to manufacture another large stealth bomber in the future. Consequently, there have been numerous updates to the B-2’s stealth features, evolving away from the arduous tape-and-caulk methods to streamlined systems that work better and are easier to maintain. The B-2’s mission systems are now entering what some call a “mid-life update” involving new technology, and Northrop Grumman has a detailed plan to keep the bomber capable and relevant until 2058; nearly two decades beyond its early service life predictions. Northrop Grumman is state-of-the-art when it comes to modern stealth bombers.

The Air Force suggests LRS-B may be “optionally manned” in the future. In the last two years, Northrop Grumman’s X-47B stealth concept jet has taken off from and landed on an aircraft carrier fully autonomously, and performed aerial refueling on its own, as well. Its Global Hawk intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance aircraft fly automatic routes every day, aided by humans only in the takeoff and landing phase, with mere monitoring in between. Though Global Hawk has come close to termination a couple of times due to cost, the Air Force admits Northrop Grumman has made great strides in getting costs under control.

Northrop Grumman also has solid, industry-leading skills in radar and electronic warfare, which the Air Force recently acknowledged will be a key part of the LRS-B’s mission. In fact, if Boeing were to win the LRS-B, it might well have to buy these mission systems from Northrop Grumman. Much of the F-35’s mission suite is built by Northrop Grumman—including the centerpiece radar—as well as the fighter’s 360-degree-view Distributed Aperture System and communications-navigations gear. The company also builds a substantial part of the F-35 airframe as Lockheed Martin’s industrial partner.

The Air Force has all but acknowledged that Northrop Grumman is the contractor behind a stealthy, long-range robotic ISR platform purportedly called the RQ-180, now in service, and there’s strong evidence that Northrop built a proof-of-concept aircraft in preparation for USAF’s last attempt at a B-2 successor, the Next Generation Bomber, terminated by Gates in 2009. The company’s acquisition of Scaled Composites, another aerospace company, boosted its already robust ability to rapidly prototype novel aircraft concepts, which apparently is being done: Northrop Grumman’s balance sheet reveals considerable revenue from unnamed, classified government projects.

Though Boeing has downplayed the risk involved in building the KC-46 tanker, a seemingly novice error in the design of wiring harnesses has put the project at least eight months behind. That mistake also cut deeper into the company’s profits on development, which it took on as a loss leader to be a player in what it sees as a decades-long tanker market. And, while Lockheed Martin has reduced costs and made good on the F-35 since its program “rebaselining” in 2010, the company clearly didn’t anticipate the risks in development, which went $12 billion over budget before the Pentagon started to apply corrective action. How the Pentagon grades “past performance” on these two crown jewel programs may well be the critical factor in deciding who gets to work on the LRS-B.

The three programs the Air Force considers “existential” to its ability to do its mission are the KC-46 tanker, the F-35 strike fighter, and the LRS-B, and it maintains that it will cut or shuffle any other acquisition projects to get them. Boeing already has the tanker program; Lockheed Martin has the F-35. Would the Air Force really put all its Fabergé eggs in their basket? Pentagon leaders say that as the number of new programs shrink, they want to preserve competition as much as possible, with as many credible offerors as possible. Based on that thinking, Northrop Grumman will get the LRS-B.

It’s not just a matter of who needs the work. If budgetary push comes to shove, would Boeing and Lockheed Martin put their full backing behind the LRS-B, which is still in the concept stage, or behind the tanker and F-35, which are well into production? Lockheed Martin yanked its support for the F-22 when Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, who wanted to kill the Raptor, threatened the F-35 in retaliation. The air immediately rushed out of the campaign to keep the F-22 going in Washington, D.C.

All those factors taken in concert, Northrop Grumman has good reason to believe the empty space in its Palmdale, Calif., facility will soon fill up with LRS-B work.
brar_w
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Philip wrote:
Russia Sends MiG-31 Jets to Syria - Media

14:37 17.08.2015(
Russian officials have not yet confirmed the information.
Russia reportedly supplied Syria with supersonic MiG-31 fighter/interceptors, partly fulfilling the bilateral contract of 2007, BGNNews.com reported.

In 2007, Russia and Syria signed two agreements worth 1 billion dollars for the supply of MiG-29M and MiG-31. The deliveries of the MiG-29M’s are underway, but those of the MiG-31’s were reportedly delayed because of pressure from Israel.

An Ilyushin Il-78 Midas air force tanker and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-31 Foxhound fighter-interceptors

Russian MiG-31s Perform Unique Non-Stop Flight With Three Aerial Refuelings
In 2009, Russia confirmed its intention to fulfill the deal and deliver 8 MiG-31 fighters to Damascus.

According to media sources, six MiG-31 jets have already landed in Damascus. The website connects Russia's decision with its intention to help Syria in its fight against the Islamic State terrorist group.

A group of four MiG-31 jets is capable of controlling the air space to a distance of 800-900 km.

The MiG-31 is a supersonic interceptor aircraft built for use by the Soviet Air Forces in the 1970s. It is designed to detect and destroy air targets at extremely low, low, medium and high altitudes, at day and night time and in any adverse weather conditions.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150817/ ... z3j4lHBmYN

Janes, in the comments sections of its article has a word of caution..
Until the arrival of the MiG-31s in Damascus is confirmed, it should be treated with an element of scepticism. With the regime of Bashar al-Assad finding itself increasingly hard-pressed on the ground, it has to be noted that a state-of-the-art high-altitude interceptor is probably of limited use right now.

The delivery has been linked to Western proposals for a no-fly buffer zone to be established over Syria, but while the MiG-31s would certainly give NATO planners pause for thought, their small number and single basing location would mean that they would likely be destroyed in the early hours of any alliance effort to establish air dominance over the country ahead of implementing such a no-fly zone.
TSJones
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by TSJones »

^^^^

I hope it happens. Be good practice for our F-22's and testing of weapons systems..
brar_w
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

tushar_m wrote:If someone like Trump gets elected then will we see increase in defense spending ?

In one of his interviews he did express interest in sending ground troops to fight ISIS.
There is no need to 'increase' defense spending. The Obama FY16 budget is extremely impressive and sustaining it would be all that is needed. The problem is that the republicans are split between defense-hawks and appropriation hawks, the latter won't fully fund obamas budget because they want cuts in social spending that obama will veto...It doesn't matter whether it is Obama, Clinton or anyone else if they don't alter the current budget significantly they would have done quite well. Clinton and the republicans are both fairly strong on defense and Biden is a former defense-hawk, however the problem or the need of the hour is not to increase defense spending but to sustain defense spending by doing away the sequestration or the budget-control-act that is forcing congress to add money through the OCO route but that money cannot be used for long term programs because it is not guaranteed and is an annual appropriations..Increase in spending is pointless without a sustained effort..

In the current scenario OBAMA proposes a budget that is well ahead of sequestration limits, the republican congress rejects it and then appropriates the delta through the OCO spending account..This while a decent 'band aid solution' prohibits the US services to use that money on long term projects because there is no guarantee that the same or higher amount will come next year. This year again obama has asked for higher levels than the BCA will permit but many feel that the BCA has at most a year or two left before it is abolished. Most moderate democrats (such as Clinton and Biden) recognize that its not the increase in defense spending that is driving up the budget deficit and debt , but an out of control social or ' entitelemnt spending', therefore if the solution to get the deficit to more appropriate level does not need to focus on an area that isn't really growing but one that is growing at an alarming pace.
brar_w
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Chinese Firm Claims To Offer Israeli AESA Radar
TAIPEI and TEL AVIV — A People's Liberation Army (PLA)-accredited, publicly traded firm is marketing an advanced airborne fire-control radar believed to be from Elta Systems, the same Israeli state-owned subsidiary at the heart of an incendiary chapter in US-Israel relations that continues to reverberate 15 years after Washington forced Israel to cancel a controversial contract with Beijing.

According to a product catalogue by NAV Technology Company, the Beijing-based firm claims its active electronic scanned array (AESA) radar "incorporates Elta's decades of field-proven experience with real operational feedback from Israel Air Force combat pilots."

While the catalogue — distributed at Airshow China in Zhuhai last November — does not directly identify Elta's ELM-2052 radar by name, its two-page description is nearly identical to publicly available marketing data by Elta, a subsidiary of state-owned Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), whose Phalcon aerial warning and control radar deal with Beijing was terminated in mid-2000 due to fierce opposition from executive and legislative branches of the US government.

The NAV-purported product boasts advanced multimode capabilities for precision, long-range attack of multiple air, sea and moving ground targets.

If indeed the radar is part of NAV's product portfolio, it could provide Chinese-made fighters — including those planned for export to Iran and other nations hostile to both Israel and the United States — with the ability to track and attack dozens of targets simultaneously.

Israel's Ministry of Defence on Monday said it has no knowledge of NAV and its claimed association with Elta. Yet when asked if the MoD had ever granted IAI a license to market the Elta airborne AESA radar in China or to a Chinese subsidiary, spokeswoman Orna Simhoni-Ofer declined to answer and referred Defense News to IAI.

In a written reply, IAI spokeswoman Eliana Fishler denied any association between Elta and NAV "or any other Chinese firm."

According to Fishler, "We don't have a clue as to why they wrote this in their brochure, but it is completely not true."

Fishler declined, however, to state what, if any, steps the firm intended to take against NAV for what it insists is a blatant forgery of IAI/Elta marketing information.

Yang Yunchun, NAV Technology chairman and president, did not respond to repeated requests for comment. The Chinese-language website for the company does not list an AESA radar as a product. According to public information, Yang is the founder and principal stockholder (55 percent) of the company traded on the Chinese stock exchange.

But in an apparent boost to IAI claims of forgery, NAV's 55-page product catalogue indicates the firm is willing to "reverse engineer" a US-made inertial navigation system that the Pakistani Air Force is having problems with. NAV would provide "a detailed solution," according to company marketing material.

The NAV catalogue also lists a "NAV-SDB Small Diameter Bomb" that appears identical to the Boeing GBU-39 precision-guided glide bomb, including photograph and specs.

In 2010, the company received Chinese government approval to manufacture equipment for the PLA, similar to ISO 9000 certification. The NAV website includes a copy of the quality control accreditation certificate issued by the China New Time Quality System Accreditation Center on behalf of the China Military Industry Product Quality Accreditation Committee.
Austin
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by Austin »

Very interesting Iran can build such drones

INTERCEPTS: Check Out a Crashed Iranian Drone
brar_w
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Re: International Aerospace Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Arun Menon wrote:
RamaY wrote:Dear Team LCA!

The Gods have smiled upon you. Looks like you are almost there. Just one last lap to victory!

Make in India: US offers to jointly manufacture fighter jets with India
The F-16 Fighting Falcon's combat radius is 550 km (340 mi) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 450 kg (1,000 lb) bombs.
^The above is according to wikipedia. How is this significantly better than LCA? How is buying the F-16 an improvement over buying LCA Mk-1?
Your point about the F-16 offer being pointless (due to the maturity of LCA MK1 and the short dev. cycle for the MK2) is quite valid and I have made it as well here..but you have to note that the F-16C's being sold now days are capable of carrying nearly 1400 Kg of extra fuel without resorting to external fuel tanks under the wings (they can use CFT's)..This frees up stations, and does not introduce the significant drag penalty (check DI charts in the F-16 manual) compared to EFT's where as much as 50% of the fuel stored within them is utilized to overcome drag associated with them (compared to EFT's, the CFT's are claimed to have just 12% of the drag while not affecting the 9G envelope of the aircraft). Add a centerline 300 Gallon tank and the Blk.50/52/60/61 can carry an additional 2200 kg's of fuel between the EFT and CFT a nearly 70% increase in its total fuel capacity but with only one centerline station used up and the total amount of 'useful' range is better with a mix of CFT's and EFT's because of the reasons described above (DRAG)..For Ferry flights or to drop a very small load (or recon etc) an F-16 variant enabled for CFT's can carry nearly 20,000 pounds (9000 kg's) of fuel (int. + Ext)..

http://milidata.com/uploads/fufu/3/wtm_ ... b4fd33.jpg

Now getting to range..For A detail on various profiles extrapolated from the flight manual you could either go through the manual or read TOAN's posts on f-16.net..The AvWeek Dossier on the Viper also has some information (and is the source of fuel carriage cited above)..

Taking the blk. 40, they give a 700+ KM Mission radius (without CFT's) for a Hi-Lo-Lo-Hi mission where 3 EFT's are carried and are retained throughout the flight..The payload is as follows -

4 x 4000 lb (7000 Kg of bombs total) bombs
2 x Sidewinder Missile
3 X EFT's (retained)

The Block60/61 or the IDF F-16 SUFA's can obviously do a lot better thanks to the CFT"s. The block 50/52/60/61 is basically an affordable alternative to the F-15E with range/payload sacrifices and lower mission flexbility offset by a much lower operational cost.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Aug 2015 01:57, edited 2 times in total.
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