Indian Army: News & Discussion

[chackojoseph]

There is little doubt if VKS has been victimised for his straight forwardness. The govt did goof up.

[shiv]

Folks do you recall the dark days after Operation Blue Star? There were Sikh desertions and a palpable and severe drop in the number of Sikhs in the Indian army courtesy your favorite sycophants'r'us political party.

Could this "conspiracy" be aimed at redressing that? I have conspiracy theories too.

A very stupid and horrible way of going about it, if the case. Guranteed to be counterproductive in pissing off a whole bunch of Army in the process both Sikh and not Sikh.

Wasn't that what happened in Blue Star?

[shiv]

So, as you put it, YOB anomaly was indeed the brilliant stroke of luck.

Problem is - this would be very difficult to support in a court of law. A stroke of luck for the conspirator is a stroke of misfortune for Gen VK Singh because there was actually an anomalous record. No court is ever going to convert one man's stroke of misfortune into reason for indicting another man. There are so many ways of ducking the questions as to why the record was not set right.

[rohitvats]

So, as you put it, YOB anomaly was indeed the brilliant stroke of luck.

Problem is - this would be very difficult to support in a court of law. A stroke of luck for the conspirator is a stroke of misfortune for Gen VK Singh because there was actually an anomalous record. No court is ever going to convert one man's stroke of misfortune into reason for indicting another man. There are so many ways of ducking the questions as to why the record was not set right.

A stroke of luck which was converted into an opportunity using fraudulent means is the real issue. The record was set all right - all right in the favor of one party - all the communication between then MS (in 2006) and VKS is testimony to it.

But the point is lost because SC never went into that argument. And for a simple reason because VKS never presented it in that manner. It took the 2006 communication at face value and closed the chapter.

[shiv]

Who made an RTI request for Army records of the General's DoB? Why? Would the matter not have reached such huge proportions if the RTI had not come up at just that point in time? Someone must have been in the know that there was some issue with the DoB which VKS had asked for "reconciliation". Why would anyone just go about issuing an RTI request for a general's DoB records as if he was buying a packet of chips?

[Surya]

Sanku wrote:
shiv wrote:
Folks do you recall the dark days after Operation Blue Star? There were Sikh desertions and a palpable and severe drop in the number of Sikhs in the Indian army courtesy your favorite sycophants'r'us political party.

Could this "conspiracy" be aimed at redressing that? I have conspiracy theories too.


A very stupid and horrible way of going about it, if the case. Guranteed to be counterproductive in pissing off a whole bunch of Army in the process both Sikh and not Sikh.


Wasn't that what happened in Blue Star?

Things have moved on since


1. there were some desertions and unhappiness but dont think army recuitment dropped. If anything as the state population numbers have changed - Punjab is left behind

2. JJ getting the COAS got the Akalis etc all happy

3. Its UP and Bihar now which are our manpower base

[chaanakya]

Viv in umpteen discussion that i have seen and from what i have read and spoken , the last 3 appointment including that of COAS has been done and accepted by VKS in writing keeping 1950 as DOB. Infact on one occasion he even writes back clearing any doubts or misgiving any one may have on he accepting 1950 as DOB as far his promotions goes.

Appointments and postings are generally not based on DOB, similarly Promotions are not based on DOB except for residual service. DOB is valid only for initial appointment and retirement.

Rest is a done for a purpose, not relevant for the postings or appointments. So asking for confirming DOB at a later date when all his promotions are given with 1951 is nothing but unsual.

[Austin]

Rest is a done for a purpose, not relevant for the postings or appointments. So asking for confirming DOB at a later date when all his promotions are given with 1951 is nothing but unsual.

Well lets assume what you say is right , but such unusal was accepted by VKS in writing not on one but three occasion and he did not approach the courts then to redress the unusual , which in itself is quite unusual.

[chaanakya]

Nelson ,can we have further elaboration on this point please?

The crux is the then Chiefs had no consideration to play truant with DoB of VKS except to satisfy or please the political master, read MMS. So the MoD has always been in the loop.

Does it also implicate AKA too?

I am sure taint saint had a role.He took over from Dada in 2006.

[chaanakya]

Austin,exactly what I asked,and he (Gen VKS can still find/has enough time to find some reason to haul up Gen. Bik, for let's say....insubordination,as allegedly plotted against him bt Gen.DK,and blot his copybook sufficiently for the GOI to have to overlook him?!

Ramana Garu, if he is the anointed one, he would be protected at all cost. I think it would be wrong to witch hunt BS unnecessarily on this issue unless there is substance for raising charges. It would also not be seen in good light.

[chaanakya]

VKS resignation != Govt sacking him at its pleasure/ displeasure.

Let the govt of the day try it, sack Army chief without sufficient cause, then we will see.

Well technically and legally you can sack an officer at the president pleasure without a reason (this is just an academic discussion)...for eg: if you suspect an officer of being corrupt or of spying but dont have enough evidence you can use this option

Yes it can be done. No doubt about it.

[chackojoseph]

A stroke of luck which was converted into an opportunity using fraudulent means is the real issue.

How so?

[chaanakya]

^ That shows the naivete of the General and his legal team. But to be fair to the team, the SC's position was unexpected and preordained, to say the least.

Nelson Ji, Judges do bullying all the time. It is also a way to test your convictions. The SC position is not clear as it didn't produce any judgement. What happens cross examination, is not to be taken as the position. General tactics of the lawyer is to start squealing or what we call a 'broken record technique'. Just keep praying your stance again and again and do not get lead by with the judge or the opposition. Use overt chaaploosi, words like 'my lord' and 'your grace' etc etc....

If still pushed to corner ask for time to discuss and revert. Bench says ' Well! you wrote the letters... how can you go back on your promise...?" you say "My Lord I was under tremendous pressure and i was assured the records will be corrected in future. Now I am here with my 38 years long reputation at stake." Bench Says " There is no honor and dignity in going back on your own written commitments." you say " My Lord I was under tremendous pressure and i was assured the records will be corrected in future. Now I am here with my 38 years long reputation at stake." Bench says "You consider your position otherwise I have no hesitation is producing a judgement." you say "Of course My Lordship! I am here for exactly that and I am sure if you consider case # this and this and this and subsequent judgments here and here and here you will see that I am a victim of circumstances and also My Lord I was under tremendous pressure and i was assured the records will be corrected in future. Now I am here with my 38 years long reputation at stake."

Surely, Bench would have gone back to Government asking tougher questions... At the least ask for another date...

Surely you seem to be a Lawyer. This is what happens most of the time. Legal team was inexperienced and as Kunal pointed out was also late in coming to the court.

[Sanku]

"shiv">>Folks do you recall the dark days after Operation Blue Star? There were Sikh desertions and a palpable and severe drop in the number of Sikhs in the Indian army courtesy your favorite sycophants'r'us political party. Could this "conspiracy" be aimed at redressing that? I have conspiracy theories too.

A very stupid and horrible way of going about it, if the case. Guranteed to be counterproductive in pissing off a whole bunch of Army in the process both Sikh and not Sikh.

Wasn't that what happened in Blue Star?

Sure, but blue star was not a conspiracy in any sense, just plain ham handed fix of a self created problem.

Please lets not follow this, its quite bizarre, not every popular opinion on BRF has to be pisko-ed you know.

[chaanakya]

It seems so convenient that in order to make the succession plan work VK Singh had to become COAS. Was it necessary for dates to be fiddled with for him to become COAS?

He was senior and younger enough not to get bypassed for COAS. Since he could not be bypassed, he needed to be retired early if Succession plan was to work. The other alternative was not to make him GOC IN C of Eastern Command (but send him to Ahmed Nagar). Then he would not become eligible for promotion to COAS. They had two years to fix him from 2006 if he failed to oblige and would have become a footnote in history.
Its fairly easy to find who would succeed in normal course unless he is not made eligible or not meritorious enough and to be overlooked or got involved in DA.

[chaanakya]

Rest is a done for a purpose, not relevant for the postings or appointments. So asking for confirming DOB at a later date when all his promotions are given with 1951 is nothing but unsual.

Well lets assume what you say is right , but such unusal was accepted by VKS in writing not on one but three occasion and he did not approach the courts then to redress the unusual , which in itself is quite unusual.

No need to assume, thats SOP. . There is a post posted previously indicating that VKS pursued the matter even after so called acceptance. That means he did not accept it. Nothing unusual. Legal team did not project and got cowed down by SC.

[shiv]

Shiv wrote:

Wasn't that what happened in Blue Star?

Hakim Sahib, I am really surprised that such a mischievous/loaded statement has come from someone like you.

Ajatshatru I don't really want to change the subject. I am not sure how many BRFites lived through Blue Star and had friends who were murdered in Delhi after Indy Gandhi was shot. I also happen to know a particular Hakim who had the dead/dying lady with bullet holes on his lap in the car to AIIMS. And my family was in Pune when Gen Vaidya was assassinated. Those were dark days indeed.

When we speak of "dark, deep" conspiracies from someone above Antony, guess how many people rank above Antony?

I am going to drop the subject.

[Kanson]

Saar - have you noticed a break that you should feel the need to egg me on? I don't recall having been stopped.

Well only partially egging you on

A pisko analysis on this would be interesting to know why so many langots are in a twist. Mine certainly are

Definitely he is asking all 'Who's Sita after the Ramayana show' type Qs laced with Devil's advocate-ism in his own style but still missed on twisting of langots part.

At the outset it may look like a innocuous DoB issue of an Army officer, or merely an army affair but many, who is beyond the Army family are taking interest in this case becoz they believe that this has direct and important connection to the Scams such as 2G and Adarsh scam happened and many other scams waiting to happen.

Sample this:

2G Spectrum Scam Demoralizes Indian Army

Recently, the Chief of Army Staff of the Indian Army (COAS), General V.K. Singh had openly stated that the Indian Army became a demoralized lot after the infamous 2G Spectrum scam that rocked the whole country. The scam is said to have caused Rs. 1.76 lakh crores loss to country's exchequer.

The after-effects of the scam were felt in the Indian Army too, which had so far not echoed its opinion on any of the past scandals. Considering the enormity of this fraud on the nation, Indian Army staff were fuming in private, saying that guarding the country's boundaries day and night in inclement weather served no purpose since these scams were eating the vitals organs of the country.

and

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/info-tech/article2668800.ece?ref=wl_government-and-policy_art

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sibal-runs-into-army-hurdle-over-spectrum/1/124540.html

[chaanakya]

Those were dark days indeed.

.

Sure it was and we thought dark days were over . Seems belied.

[Austin]

No need to assume, thats SOP. . There is a post posted previously indicating that VKS pursued the matter even after so called acceptance. That means he did not accept it. Nothing unusual. Legal team did not project and got cowed down by SC.

Its quite unusually for some one to accept some things in writing ( not verbally ) and then pursue it after so called accepting it in which ever ways he felt was right , even with all good intentions it wont be legally tenable.

If he had signed thrice and still feel it is not acceptable to him then I think its his problem and the way he tackled it is he went to the apex court.

That is the reason they keep saying that read before you sign any document and that is how these insurance company deny you claims by putting in caveats that you have signed and are suppose to read.

[shiv]

At the outset it may look like a innocuous DoB issue of an Army officer, or merely an army affair but many, who is beyond the Army family are taking interest in this case becoz they believe that this has direct and important connection to the Scams such as 2G and Adarsh scam happened and many other scams waiting to happen.

One general fights for one issue and here people are cursing journalists, army, government, courts ,everything - and connecting everything with the general's fight. You see you may be well intentioned but if you have one person who does not like you that person is going to conclude that you are bullshitting about unrelated issues and that your support for the general is also nonsense. How does that help the general's case. At best it won't affect it, but it just does not do to curse everyone who disagrees.

The scams were there before and will continue after, but how is the general's date of birth issue connected with 2-G scam which you have now brought up? It is all about corruption in the country no? So it is connected. I had to pay a bribe yesterday. That is also connected no? With the General's date of birth issue.

It seemed to me that the main issue was of having a rant, which every concerned person has had. To me it seemed like the issue had been taken from "cow" to "cow is tied to coconut tree so let us talk of coconut tree".

[Sri]

Surely you seem to be a Lawyer. This is what happens most of the time. Legal team was inexperienced and as Kunal pointed out was also late in coming to the court.

Judges must be thinking ' Hmmm!!! that was easy! '.

[chaanakya]

Its quite unusually for some one to accept some things in writing ( not verbally ) and then pursue it after so called accepting it in which ever ways he felt was right , even with all good intentions it wont be legally tenable. .

That question would have arisen or proven if SC rendered judgement on merits. It played Katta Panchayatdar so legal tenability is untested and your opinion.

[Kanson]

At the outset it may look like a innocuous DoB issue of an Army officer, or merely an army affair but many, who is beyond the Army family are taking interest in this case becoz they believe that this has direct and important connection to the Scams such as 2G and Adarsh scam happened and many other scams waiting to happen.

One general fights for one issue and here people are cursing journalists, army, government, courts ,everything - and connecting everything with the general's fight. You see you may be well intentioned but if you have one person who does not like you that person is going to conclude that you are bullshitting about unrelated issues and that your support for the general is also nonsense. How does that help the general's case. At best it won't affect it, but it just does not do to curse everyone who disagrees.

The scams were there before and will continue after, but how is the general's date of birth issue connected with 2-G scam which you have now brought up? It is all about corruption in the country no? So it is connected. I had to pay a bribe yesterday. That is also connected no? With the General's date of birth issue.

It seemed to me that the main issue was of having a rant, which every concerned person has had. To me it seemed like the issue had been taken from "cow" to "cow is tied to coconut tree so let us talk of coconut tree".

These type of Qs( Is it really relevant; do this really happened; is there any connection) were asked even in 2G case before it was well established. You can make such queries. It is all part & parcel of the system.

Before ending this note. I'm not here for the General's case. I'm here for his stand against the corrupt system just like i would have extended to anyone like Anna or Ramdev.

[nelson]

The army is rotten at the top because it suits the politicians and bureaucrats that way. They want pliant Generals and they ensure that they get it. When someone steps out of line they make an Arora out of him. If still the person reaches the top they make a VKS out of him.

Is there any evidence that you are not biased yourself? This is the simplest and most obvious way of tearing down your views. That is exactly what happens and I think you know that.

The onus is on you to prove that I am biased. Do not pass it on to me.

[Sri]

Its quite unusually for some one to accept some things in writing ( not verbally ) and then pursue it after so called accepting it in which ever ways he felt was right , even with all good intentions it wont be legally tenable.

If he had signed thrice and still feel it is not acceptable to him then I think its his problem and the way he tackled it is he went to the apex court.

That is the reason they keep saying that read before you sign any document and that is how these insurance company deny you claims by putting in caveats that you have signed and are suppose to read.

Austin Ji. if was the lawyer, I'll setup the case in a way that Bench asks GOI... whether it is standard practise for all officers to declare their age, before getting a promotion? ... Answer could be a) No only when there is a doubt. In case a) I would have again questioned the opposition why VKS was singled out? and it will be really easy to show that how a little mistake by a clerk 38 years ago is used as an excuse to tarnish a good officer's record .... In case of please share examples.... and the case would have moved on from the letter signing issue...

Remember it's always easy to debunk such issues specially when they are exception.... Question is what were the conditions under which a highly decorated officer had to issue such letters. Surely this is not standard practise. And if it is not standard practice then exceptions have to be dealt in a fair manner.

[Austin]

That question would have arisen or proven if SC rendered judgement on merits. It played Katta Panchayatdar so legal tenability is untested and your opinion.

My opinion is SC did a very Fair and Just stand in this case , if it had been something else it would have been dissapointing.

[nelson]

..
.....
.....
The plan sounds too improbable to me. Can someone explain how this was achieved? I understand the thought that there are "deep" conspiracies. But you cannot win a case on "deep conspiracies" without laying them credibly bare.

Yes, too improbable, but not impossible.

[shiv]

Its quite unusually for some one to accept some things in writing ( not verbally ) and then pursue it after so called accepting it in which ever ways he felt was right , even with all good intentions it wont be legally tenable.

That is the reason they keep saying that read before you sign any document and that is how these insurance company deny you claims by putting in caveats that you have signed and are suppose to read.

I think VKS may have been in no position to refuse and fight with JJ Singh after the latter assured him that it would be addressed in due course. Assuming that this is exactly what transpired. Looking at the letters that VKS wrote it looks like he guess that something was amiss and probably realised that his career was being cut short by a year. But he was trapped.

I personally think he has actually redeemed himself with honor given the mess he was in. It occurs to me that there were 3 previous wrongs

1. Wrong date in application form
2. Wrong date maintained in Army record for 3+ decades
3. Wrong date forced on VKS by JJ.

Only that last can be pinned on JJ. The case was unfortunately weak if it comes to proving a conspiracy. It it was to prove incompetence and negligence by the army - sure, I think there is a case

[shiv]

Is there any evidence that you are not biased yourself? This is the simplest and most obvious way of tearing down your views. That is exactly what happens and I think you know that.

The onus is on you to prove that I am biased. Do not pass it on to me.

No No. That was a rhetorical statement. You may or may not be biased. I have no way of knowing, but the first line of defence for anyone disagreeing with you would be to accuse you of bias. That is all I was saying.

[Austin]

Austin Ji. if was the lawyer, I'll setup the case in a way that Bench asks GOI... Remember it's always easy to debunk such issues specially when they are exception....

Well I am fairly certain that in the position he was in , he could employ the best lawyer he can , he surely got some good legal advise and he proceeded accordingly , after all he is no small man himself and is a very talented person.

Had this been some poor man who can barely afford a lawyer ..... and i know many who cant afford a lawyer in lower court , I could have sympathized with him and would have given him benefit of doubt.

[shiv]

Bhindrawalla was a creation of the INC and brought to centre stage in Punjab to counter the Akalis, but later the man turned out to be a Frankenstein monster who even went out of the control of the Congress. Things had reached a stage where operation bluestar became a must. Did India really have an alternative at that time? India paid the price for the follies of INC in Punjab and things reached such a pass that operation had become a must at that time.

I don't think we have any disagreement here. You may have misunderstood the point I was making, which was not clear to start with. Since it is OT I am not going to say anything further. There is no difference in my view.

[Austin]

think VKS may have been in no position to refuse and fight with JJ Singh after the latter assured him that it would be addressed in due course.

I think he was in a position to understand very well what he was doing , I think he simply traded for position in return for what ever he gave in writing , probably he thought it was better to grow in the army then to take some one to court on something like DOB issue and considering he did that not once but thrice he was very well aware what he was going into both the pluses and minus.

Since he had his matriculation certificate and few other that reflected a different DOB then what he accepted and he thought he might have a good chance to fight and win this.

Probably if he was promised something by JJ or some one in return for some thing verbally and lets assume he was assured verbally thrice before he signed on the dotted line thrice , then its a serious error of judgment on his part.

[Sanku]

That question would have arisen or proven if SC rendered judgement on merits. It played Katta Panchayatdar so legal tenability is untested and your opinion.

My opinion is SC did a very Fair and Just stand in this case , if it had been something else it would have been dissapointing.

SC did nothing. There is nothing fair or unfair, it just did nothing.

Zero. Very sad -- because it allowed a unfortunate situation to be not redeemed.

[shiv]

Probably if he was promised something by JJ or some one in return for some thing verbally and lets assume he was assured verbally thrice before he signed on the dotted line , then its a serious error of judgment on his part.

Well if true the sad part is that he has been victim of a "confidence trick" within the army emanating from a COAS no less. But if you are tricked you are tricked. JJ Singh is IMO on a strong wicket here but the entire possibility of a succession scam would never have come to light if VKS had chosen to take it lying down.

The real truth, or individual versions of the truth will be known to all army officers and will be common knowledge. Judging from the strong reactions on here chances are there is definitely some gol maal going on. But proving it is a different matter. I personally don't think Gen VKS's cause is being served by trying to use his court battle to prove conspiracy. He wasn't trying to prove a conspiracy. Why are his staunch supporters trying to do that? To me that sounds like a selfish agenda and I think that only sullies the case.

[Sanku]

I personally think he has actually redeemed himself with honor given the mess he was in. It occurs to me that there were 3 previous wrongs

1. Wrong date in application form
2. Wrong date maintained in Army record for 3+ decades
3. Wrong date forced on VKS by JJ.

Only that last can be pinned on JJ. The case was unfortunately weak if it comes to proving a conspiracy. It it was to prove incompetence and negligence by the army - sure, I think there is a case

I am sorry Shiv, you are missing out many more wrongs, why I do not know.

1) Wrong on AKA's part to not have the Army solve the issue in a fair transparent manner after CoAS raised it.
2) Wrong on UPA's part to have Manmohan let loose his attack dogs on Gen Singh.
3) Wrong on UPA's part to have a junior Babu write a letter to AG asking AG to change the date as it saw fit arbitrarily, even when matter was subjudice.
4) Wrong on AKAs part to let the same person offer legal advice on the issue twice.

And also

5) Wrong on SC's part to not go into solving the real issue -- what is the correct date, and instead waffle about wisdom and winds.

You are missing out many points, I am afraid.

[Sri]

Austin Ji. if was the lawyer, I'll setup the case in a way that Bench asks GOI... Remember it's always easy to debunk such issues specially when they are exception....

Well I am fairly certain that in the position he was in , he could employ the best lawyer he can , he surely got some good legal advise and he proceeded accordingly , after all he is no small man himself and is a very talented person.

Had this been some poor man who can barely afford a lawyer ..... and i know many who cant afford a lawyer in lower court , I could have sympathized with him and would have given him benefit of doubt.

Austin Ji, unfortunately you are right. Can't argue with that.

For people like me who think that the General could have won, the saddest thing is he retreated...

[Sanku]

I personally don't think Gen VKS's cause is being served by trying to use his court battle to prove conspiracy. He wasn't trying to prove a conspiracy. Why are his staunch supporters trying to do that? To me that sounds like a selfish agenda and I think that only sullies the case.

We dont really know what were the real motivations that Gen Singh had, about two weeks+ back I had offered my personal views on his motivation

1) To bring the real gol-mal to light in a court room, "wash the dirty linen" as the court figured, but didnt want to do.
2) To influence who the next chief would be to an extent by shortening/extending his tenure.
3) To settle the honor and integrity issue.

In my view, Gen VKS was offering himself as a pawn in a game so that the the Viziers in the nasty game could be taken out, and he was doing it for IA.

[nelson]

Probably if he was promised something by JJ or some one in return for some thing verbally and lets assume he was assured verbally thrice before he signed on the dotted line , then its a serious error of judgment on his part.

Well if true the sad part is that he has been victim of a "confidence trick" within the army emanating from a COAS no less. But if you are tricked you are tricked. JJ Singh is IMO on a strong wicket here but the entire possibility of a succession scam would never have come to light if VKS had chosen to take it lying down.

The real truth, or individual versions of the truth will be known to all army officers and will be common knowledge. Judging from the strong reactions on here chances are there is definitely some gol maal going on. But proving it is a different matter. I personally don't think Gen VKS's cause is being served by trying to use his court battle to prove conspiracy. He wasn't trying to prove a conspiracy.

Yes, I can vouch for what you have said here. For the remaining part of your post, which I deleted from the quote, i will choose to answer at a later date.

[Sri]

And also

5) Wrong on SC's part to not go into solving the real issue -- what is the correct date, and instead waffle about wisdom and winds.

You are missing out many points, I am afraid.

sanku Ji, Supreme court did nothing. They just cross examined and did a little dadagiri (who wouldn't when Army Chief and AG are pleading in front of you). What do you think bench should have done? ask the general not take their cross examination at heart and continue fighting. Do you honestly believe that supreme court expected the General to withdraw petition over lunch break? They didn't even ask another date so that they can consult their client....