Understanding Sikh History-1

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 31 Jan 2011 05:56

I am not familiar with the some recent history, so I will have to beg out of the question. I think SBajwa can throw more light on it.

Just one comment on the non-Ranjit Singh kingdoms. British history is fond of using the terminology "Cis-Sutlej" and "trans-Satluj" state. Trans=Ranjit Singh, and Cis Satluj states were Patiala, Jind, Kapurthala, Nabha etc. If I am not mistaken their blood lines survive till today. Satluj was the dividing line between the Ranjist Singh Kingdom and the British controlled areas (or to be more exact the cis-Satluj states, under British protection.)

Maharaja Ranjit Singh was consolidating his kingdom at a rapid clip. cis-Satluj states sought British protectorate. They became Vassal kingdom's---trading their independence to retain their gaddis. British then signed a treaty setting Satluj as the dividing line. What happened to the Cis-Satluj states is what *ALWAYS" happens to kings when they go under British protection. These states lost fighting capability and became rascinated British stooges. Many just viled away time and engaged in inanities. They lost all sense of independence and pride.

These states did not supply fighting forces in the two Anglo-Sikh wars, since Sikhs would not join against Ranjit Singh. Ranjit Singh was and remains a figure truly admired by Sikhs. The Indians in British army were Purbias, mainly. These states did supply soldiers to the British after that (1857, world wars etc.)

Patiala wa the biggest of Cis-Satluj states. Amrinder Singh is from that family. While in his Book Amrinder Singh states that Sikh Raaj lasted till 1947 *BECAUSE* of his family, no one buys that argument. They had ceased to be of any relevance when they treasoned and went under firangi protection to keep their gaddis.

Incidently, the British succeeded in getting the Kapurthala ruling family to sonvert to Christianity. Although they have retained names like "Singh" and "Kaur", and have publicly tried to keep a Sikh facade. At the time of independence, Princess Amrit Kaur was part of the cabinet. She was a Christian, not Sikh (despite the Kaur in her name). It is quite evident why the British wanted her to be included, and why the INC obliged to have her the cabinet.

PS: There is a very interesting story of how these families obtained the kingdoms as a result of the boons granted Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj for some service rendered.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 31 Jan 2011 05:58

Sri Guru Nanak Dev was not only ahead of his times (1469 - 1539) but a revolutionary. He understood the simple metaphysical concept and tried to explain them to the people around him. Not only this Sholoka (mitti musalmaan ki)., if you read his basic sikhism stuff (Mool Mantra) and Jap ji Sahib., and his poems about Babar (and his atrocities)., you will come to know him.

He was so great that when millions of people were following him (along with money, etc) He didn't picked his own two sons (Sri chand and Lakhmi chand) rather his greatest disciple (bhai lahina). His all and each decision was so perfect that today (500 years later) we can only marvel at his decisions at that time. He call himself as "Guru" and last guru Guru Gobind Singh says that anybody who prays to him as a "God" will be born again (part of Narak)., he is nothing but a Guru (just like Nanak), a Guru to teach people. Guru==Teacher

born again as per Indian Dharma is not our goal., our goal is to merge with the soul of Parmeswar (one and only one God spirit) and thus when we born again (as any species) we are already in Nark.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Jan 2011 10:35

72 Miracles By Baba Ram Rai
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/72_M ... ba_Ram_Rai

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 31 Oct 2011 03:10

The only living master of a dying martial art-shastar vidya

Nidar Singh, a 44-year-old former food packer from Wolverhampton, is now thought to be the only remaining master. He has many students, but shastar vidya takes years to learn and a commitment in time and energy that doesn't suit modern lifestyles.

I've travelled all over India and I have spoken to many elders, this is basically a last-ditch attempt to flush someone out because if I die with it, it is all gone.

It is not just martial technique, there is a lot of oral tradition and linguistic skills that has to be there as well,

So far he has only met four people who could claim to be masters, now all dead. The last of these, Ram Singh, whom he met in 1998, died four years later.

-Ankit

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 31 Oct 2011 06:56

^^ really interesting. I did some googling and came across Sri Nidar Singhs website - http://www.shastarvidiya.org/index2.jsp

Seems like he has collated a lot of information on this subject.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 11 Nov 2011 05:51

ManjaM wrote:^^ really interesting. I did some googling and came across Sri Nidar Singhs website - http://www.shastarvidiya.org/index2.jsp

Seems like he has collated a lot of information on this subject.

The site itself is very well made. Was surprised to see that not only does he trace the lineage of the art to Lord Shiva but that the story started with a piece written by Guru Gobind Singh. I thought Sikhs didn't believe in Hindu Gods?

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 11 Nov 2011 06:20

Keshav wrote:
ManjaM wrote:^^ really interesting. I did some googling and came across Sri Nidar Singhs website - http://www.shastarvidiya.org/index2.jsp

Seems like he has collated a lot of information on this subject.
The site itself is very well made. Was surprised to see that not only does he trace the lineage of the art to Lord Shiva but that the story started with a piece written by Guru Gobind Singh. I thought Sikhs didn't believe in Hindu Gods?

Following gives you the Sanatan Sikh perspective that existed before the British Raj:

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/epilogue_sikh.html

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_s ... alsa4.html

Nidar Singh is also involved with this site I think.

You may also read "The Construction of religious boundaries: culture, identity, and diversity" By Harjot Oberoi on this topic.

I know for a fact that Ranbir Singh Sekhon one of the main guys behind the Hindu Human Rights org in UK was an ardent Khalistani in his teens before he had a change of heart, he is very much a Sikh but rejects the claim that Sikhs are a separate "nation" or that Sikhism is a separate "religion" in the Abrahamic sense.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 12 Nov 2011 02:57

Surasena wrote:Following gives you the Sanatan Sikh perspective that existed before the British Raj:

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/epilogue_sikh.html

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/article_s ... alsa4.html

So basically Sikhs being a separate nation was some treachery concocted by the British? Makes sense. I don't know how many Sikhs would disagree with that today. Seems to be a very widely held belief even if they consider themselves to be Indian. You should see how a lot of Punjabi Sikhs act in America, though. You would think they were there own little country!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 12 Nov 2011 03:41

let us not jump to hasty conclusions and premature statements. seriously, I know quite a few Sikhs in US, and they are not Khalistanis. I have yet to come across one, although I don't doubt that they exist. They consider themselves Indians and we get along very well.

the long term damage created by Brits, I believe is healed to a large extent. the memories of INC attrocities is fresh and will only heal when justice is finally served to those responsible. when the coterie and chamchas are removed from power.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 12 Nov 2011 04:10

devesh wrote:let us not jump to hasty conclusions and premature statements. seriously, I know quite a few Sikhs in US, and they are not Khalistanis. I have yet to come across one, although I don't doubt that they exist. They consider themselves Indians and we get along very well.

the long term damage created by Brits, I believe is healed to a large extent. the memories of INC attrocities is fresh and will only heal when justice is finally served to those responsible. when the coterie and chamchas are removed from power.

Not saying they are Khalistani's. Just saying they are very proud of their people as to seem like they were their own country. I doubt very many Sikhs where I live would say that Hindus and Sikhs are that close as represented in that website.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 12 Nov 2011 06:12

Interesting video about the Nihang Weapons, in particular the Chakra.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Nov 2011 01:49

by Carl SBajwa wrote:
Most of the Gurdwaras these days are same as other religious places.

1. Rites and rituals.
2. Singing of Gurbani.
3. Reading of Guru Granth Sahib.

but the important part of Practice is missing. Preaching is fine but Practice has to be there before preaching.

Guru Nanak himself only sang gurbani in the evening while all day he toiled in a farm. He says

1. Kirat Kar (Work)
2. Naam Japo (meditate)
3. Vand Chhako (share)

Guru Gobind Singh only added the military/soldierly aspect to the Khalsa but there are very few real Khalsa today.

Sandeep ji, I agree, but perhaps an infusion of new blood and proselytization could have the effect of reigniting the original spirit. Already in India these days the culture of physical fitness and good work ethics is catching on, but it is happening in the context of Westernization/Bollywoodization. Indic cultures like Sikhism need to step in and harness the new trends and enthusiasm, and yoke it to dharma. Forget about ordinary congregations - some entrepreneuring and enlightened people can start something as simple as a Sikhized Boy-Scout movement.

I am trying to work with friends and certain organizations to create educational institutions that incorporate some of these elements. "Sanskritization" is one aspect, and "Kshatra" is another aspect, for students who show certain propensities. Even if ordinary Sikh congregations are not forthcoming or well-tuned to your ideals above, we do hope to incorporate some level of exposure to military training (including use of modern weapons) and ethics in the future. Its just that the GurSikh tradition provides a such an exemplary Dharmic context for such training, ready-made and historically still very accessible.

My problem with current Sikhs are their holier than thou attitude. Most of them think that it is better to have uncut hair than be an unfit Sikh. Among today sikhs cutting hair has become a bigger issue than the bigger issue of Protection of Dharm. Thus you see that during SGPC elections the biggest issue is to decide who is a Sikh so that they can vote.

Originally Guru Gobind Singh started out this way

1. Get all the Khalsa together to have an election (Sarbatt Khalsa) or to pass a resolution. Guru Gobind Singh used Guru Nanak Dev's Japu ji passage where Guru Nanak Dev describes this (exact quote)

Paanch Pravaan, Paanch Pradhaan. Five pravachan (saying?), Five is Supreme
Panchae pave Darghe Maan Panch of the Panchayat gets respect universally.
Panchaen jeean da Rajan The good king is made by the Five Panchayat.
Panchan ka Gur Aik Dhyaan. Because the five picked one's have one Supreme Guru or Creator.

So guru Gobind singh himself picked five people (who volunteered to die for the Dharma) to lead Khalsa,
they were from Hastinapur (Delhi), Jagannath Puri (Orissa), Bidar (Karnatka), Dwarka (Gujarat) and Lahore (Punjab).

Then Guru Gobind Singh did this to make them Khalsa

He got water in a steel bowl and started churning it with a sword. His wife who was standing by close got some
Patashas (sugar) thrown into the water to sweeten it.

Then Guru Gobind singh told the congregation that after drinking this water they will not need to convert or
fear anybody. They do not need to wait for Rajputs to come defend them. They do not need to see themselves up or
low from anybody.

So!! in order to get students to be Kshtra/Dharmic you need to have a VOW! and some Code!

all these talks about "Pakistan was our bad part and we have cut it away", "Pakistan have nukes
and will kill us" only reminds me of the cowardice before Khalsa.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 22 Nov 2011 03:44

SBajwa wrote:all these talks about "Pakistan was our bad part and we have cut it away", "Pakistan have nukes
and will kill us" only reminds me of the cowardice before Khalsa.

Absolutely. But we need to understand that people who think like this don't have the dynamic power that is required to engage with their environment positively, modify it and assimilate it towards their vision of dharma. Assimilation and creation anew can only come from a vision and a code of ethics bound together by vows of commitment.

So the reason many Indians have such loser attitudes is the lack of a movement that can psychologically lend them the dynamic power needed to change their own thought-stream. The creation of such a movement that lends dynamic persistence to interested individuals will drastically change social attitudes and structures. IMHO, this is the net effect of the continual creation of varna, which is the essence of the varna-aashrama-purshaartha model of Vedic society.

SBajwa wrote:My problem with current Sikhs are their holier than thou attitude. Most of them think that it is better to have uncut hair than be an unfit Sikh. Among today sikhs cutting hair has become a bigger issue than the bigger issue of Protection of Dharm. Thus you see that during SGPC elections the biggest issue is to decide who is a Sikh so that they can vote.

This sounds like the problem with Parsi Zoroastrians in India. The Parsi Panchayat is controlled by such people. The markers of the dwindling spiral in their case are worth studying.
1. First, they fled from their holy land (Persia) at a time when it was controlled by Islamist elites, but when the majority of the population (especially in the countryside) was still Zoroastrian. They came and created a community in India where the esoteric and practical aspects of their faith could be preserved. Alright so far.

2. The one good thing the Parsis did when they settled in India was to dissolve their jaati system which comprised 3 castes - ratheshtarih (nobility, soldiers, and civil servants), vastaryoshih (farmers and herdsmen), hutokshih (artisans and laborers). They did this to facilitate inter-marriage between the small handful of migrants (though the priestly caste among them still maintain their paternal bloodlines).

3. However, after settling and consolidating, they were pretty ineffective in returning and cultivating resistance networks in their original land (Persia) after having tactically retreated to India. They were content with being able to "purely" follow their religion after leaving the "contaminating" influence of invaders away. They showed very little originality, creativity, and dynamic potential in terms of assimilating new or opposing influences - aside from adapting to social conditions in India. (There is some small evidence of cultural networking, as for example the guy Azar Keyvaan who established the esoteric school at Navsari was a disciple of Sohrevardi of Iran (who was executed by the Caliph for networking with Zoroastrians). However, this networking was never close to significant.)

4. Under British rule in India they got co-opted, both, logistically as well as culturally, the latter being far more serious. (a) Firstly, they were sold the Aryan Invasion Theory and they swallowed it hook, line and sinker, feeling close to their British masters due to lighter skin. (b) The English-educated leaders among Parsis then did away with several of their religious-cultural practices that were alien to British etiquette. (c) They also jumped around, modifying their doctrines and philosophy to pander to whatever was the latest fad that emerged from the Vienna Circle or Romantic European cannibalizations of Eastern philosophies. Or to make Zoroastrianism closer to Christianity and away from "strange" Hindu ideas and practices, such as transmigration of souls and idol-worship. (d) They "liberated" their women according to Western ideas. Thus, they became deracinated, not just from their claim to Persia, but also from the land into which they had been grafted (India).

5. Simultaneous with these changes, they constantly had a conservative core that occupied the Panchayat, and tried to manufacture some sense of identity. The AIT became a cornerstone of their identity. Therefore, any idea of conversions and proselytization was out of the question. Now they spend time battling it out over whether children born of Parsi intermarriages with non-Paris can be counted as Parsis, etc. Moreover, there are some international Zoroastrian groups (who are at an impasse with the Indian Parsi Panchayat) who are trying to proselytize, especially in places like Tajikistan and Iran. But because of all this ideological mess, they are also hamstrung.

So its useful for other communities to learn from the good (few) and bad (many) choices that Parsis have made. Their good choices lead to some high material achievements while their patrons lasted. Their bad choices lead to self-destruction. Their bad choices were due to Dhimmi mentality followed by Macaulayite mentality.

SBajwa wrote:So!! in order to get students to be Kshatra/Dharmic you need to have a VOW! and some Code!

Exactly, and so a new "order" can and must be created, re-using the same memetic material (varna) of Sikhism, without any formal "permission" from SGPC or other ossified communal authorities. There are many practicing Sikhs who would participate and aid such an effort, provided the proper vision can be created and communicated.

JMT.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 22 Nov 2011 05:00

SBajwa Ji: The intent of my suggestion was not to raise a battle ready army of Khasa, much as that would be an admirable goal. I only made the suggestion to strengthen the bonds between two major communities with a long history of living together in peace, of being productive together in making a remarkable Punjab, before and after 1947, and two communities that could do with some fresh bridges built between them. It would be a great gesture on part of Hindu communities to bring a son to the Gurus as was done for centuries. That is all.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Nov 2011 05:14

Nirmalas need to be granted full authoirty comparable to SGPC and provided resources. They are adept at parchar and free from many weaknesses/vices suffered by the "kommittee".

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Nov 2011 21:00

I only made the suggestion to strengthen the bonds between two major communities with a long history of living together in peace, of being productive together in making a remarkable Punjab, before and after 1947, and two communities that could do with some fresh bridges built between them. It would be a great gesture on part of Hindu communities to bring a son to the Gurus as was done for centuries. That is all.

I do not see any issues between Hindus or Sikhs in India or outside of India. The issues are/were created for the vested interests of some people and coloring the political problems (like water) into religious problem.

The goal for all Hindus should be to become a Khalsa like in Practice and not like today's some sikhs who have
1. Uncut Hair
2. Drink daily

and thus get rights to vote for SGPC/DGPC/etc elections. so that they can keep the Dharmic knowledge among themselves instead of propagating it across the country across all Five Takhts. It is for some reason that Guru Gobind Singh created Five Takths in India

1. Takht Sri Keshgarh Sahib is at Anandpur, Ropar where Sikhs fought with Mughals.

2. Takth Sri Damdama Sahib is close to Bhatinda where Guru Gobind Singh wrote and ordered his khalsa to
make many copies of Sri Guru Granth Sahib to distribute them across the length and breadth of the country. Baba
Deep Singh put in charge when he was 25 years old by Guru Gobind Singh himself for this task. Baba Deep Singh made
copies of Guru Granth for 59 years and then in 1764 when Abdali occupied Golden Temple. Baba Deep singh
created a force of Sikhs and Hindus and attacked Abdali to celebrate Diwali at Golden Temple.

3. Takth Sri Akal Takth Sahib is at Golden Temple where Sixth Guru Sri Guru Hargobind ji declared after the martyrdom
of fifth Guru Sri Guru Arjan dev ji at Lahore to militarize and fight back. He forbade any gifts which were nor weapons,
horses or food.

4. Takth Sri Hazur Sahib is at Nanded, Maharashtra where Guru Gobind singh made SGGS the eternal Guru.

5. Takht sri Patna Sahib is at Patna, Bihar where Guru Gobind singh was born and lived until 8 years of age.

Thus! Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh were trying their best to protect the Dharmic values and they did (
eliminating Sati, eliminating casteism by Langar, Widow remarriage, be physically fit, be a saint yet soldier).

SGPC has budget of 300 Crores and they do not spend a dime out of it for sports or any physical activity.
SGPC does not allow women to sing Kirtan at Golden Temple (which Guru Nanak and other gurus did in their times).
Up until 1922 the golden temple in charge committee would not let people of lower caste inside.
and there are thousands of other things which current Sikhs need to fix.

Hindus and others can do lot of good for themselves and their country if they just follow/put into practice the sayings/doings of the Sikh Gurus.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 22 Nov 2011 21:38

SBajwa ji, what would a survey of Sikhism look like "outside" the strict control of the SGPC? For instance, there must be dozens of other Sikhi groups that do not submit to the strict control of SGPC, but which are nevertheless part of the tradition. For instance, what about groups like the Radhasoamis, other Shabd Yoga groups, Yogi Bhajan, etc? What about general youth camps or educational institutions and other services run by Sikhs? The SGPC may not publicly approve them, yet there may be a level of goodwill and decorum, and the participants of these groups are accepted at a general community level?

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Nov 2011 22:12

SBajwa ji, what would a survey of Sikhism look like "outside" the strict control of the SGPC?

off course SGPC is not everything as per Sikhi is concerned., They have the most power (political and economic).

Other groups like Radhasoamis and Nirmalias mostly do Sewa (education, orphanages, free food, medical camps, etc)
but nothing like Baba Ramdev's Yoga camps for health or sporting events. Most of the people don't care when donating money they donate everywhere (SGPC and non-SGPC places) but SGPC has hold over historical gurdwaras in Punjab,Haryana and Himachal and thus they get the most money.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 23 Nov 2011 07:07

jamwal wrote:
Why not enroll the kids in to the nearest RSS shakha instead ? It's going to be less confusing for everyone involved. The times when this custom started were very different from present. Even some non-dhimmis might think twice before associating with RSS, but IMHO it's much better than what you suggested. Grooming a son as a Sikh instead of a normal Hindu isn't going to make him better.
by Carl
Well, unlike RSS, none of the Sikh Gurus or political leaders ever made public claims of being "atheist". That alone gives me more confidence in Sikh kshaatra than RSS shaakha. I mean no offence at all to any RSS members, its an individual preference. But even RSS likes to use the personalities of Sikh Gurus by putting up their pictures here and there. If they were truer to the other threads that go into the fabric of Sikh dharma, then it would have been better.

Kesh, kadaa, etc are externals that may be modified in a modern branch that is an offshoot brotherhood (samparday) of Sikhism. But you can't put the divine core back into a movement like the RSS that sprung from purely communal-nationalistic impulse. And in that respect (of its seed) it cannot compare with Sikhism. Forget the 10 Gurus - where is a Bhai Kanhaiya in RSS history? That is kshaatra dharma, IMHO.

Well The code and sense of brotherhood is what is needed. We need to unite and not divide.

The code was such among khalsa that a young Pathan Woman came to Hari Singh Nalwa asking him that she is in love with him and wants a son just like him having defected her people.

Nalwa told her that he is already married but if she wants a Son just like him than the only way possible is to adopt him as his son.

Such fearless character and belief in your values is the need of the hour along with physical fitness, weapons training and vigilence.

---

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 23 Nov 2011 07:46

Keshav wrote: I thought Sikhs didn't believe in Hindu Gods?

I don't think this is true. In Delhi, we have a GSB Temple with Krishna, Vishnu, etc as deities, and there would be several Sikhs who would visit, pray for some time, go around the Navagraha, and leave. No one raised an eye brow or yelled jihaaaad.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Nov 2011 07:54

KJoishy wrote:
Keshav wrote: I thought Sikhs didn't believe in Hindu Gods?

The difference is there but soul essense is same Indic. Its part of the continuum in which Infite Parbrahm is supreme. The idea is to follow and adopt the essence and drop the superficial .

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 23 Nov 2011 08:02

Keshav wrote:
I thought Sikhs didn't believe in Hindu Gods?

Well the current Sikhs have converted Guru Nanak Dev and Guru Gobind Singh into gods and doing the same old stuff that original hindus did when they converted the real heroes of Ram and Krishna into Gods and instead of following them in practice started doing "pooja".

Ram reminds you of "Pran Jaaye par vachan na jaaye"
Krishna reminds you of Dharma!

but people will lie all day long and in evening spend 500 RS on Ram's Temple!! That is the biggest disgrace to a hero such as Ramachandra.
and going by the current political leaders of India the less we talk about the Krishna's lesson of Dharma in Gita the better it is.

If you want to follow your Heroes than the biggest respect is to become (try your hardest) like them.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 23 Nov 2011 08:10

^^^
+1

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 23 Nov 2011 11:04

Bir Khalsa group is doing an enormous service by reviving Sikh martial art. If they continue this show like this, I believe, not just Sikhs or Punjabis, other Indians also will start joining them.

Don't forget to check comments.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Nov 2011 12:20

KJoishy wrote:
Keshav wrote: I thought Sikhs didn't believe in Hindu Gods?
I don't think this is true. In Delhi, we have a GSB Temple with Krishna, Vishnu, etc as deities, and there would be several Sikhs who would visit, pray for some time, go around the Navagraha, and leave. No one raised an eye brow or yelled jihaaaad.

Until the early 1900's, some persons have stated there where Photos of Shiva in Golden Temple, The British apparently had a role in these being removed.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 23 Nov 2011 22:12

How could Guru Govind Singh write about Mother Chandi and Shiva and not believe in them? This divide is an artificial construct.
I remember we had picture of Guru Govind Singh in our house temple while growing up and everyone bowed and prayed as normal routine.

Sbajwa Ji: Yes we too raised Guru Govind Singh ji to Godly stature but remember, his suggestion to 9th Guru was responsible for saving my ancestors from certain massacre/conversion by Aurangzeb.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 24 Nov 2011 00:05

Many of SBajwaji's posts here are awesome. Shabaash!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 24 Nov 2011 02:44

Thanks KJoishy and others.

by VikasRaina
Sbajwa Ji: Yes we too raised Guru Govind Singh ji to Godly stature but remember, his suggestion to 9th Guru was responsible for saving my ancestors from certain massacre/conversion by Aurangzeb.

9 years old Guru Gobind Rai telling his father that the only way to save Kashmiris non-muslims was a martyrdom of a big personality and in his eyes the biggest personality was his guru which is Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur (who had earlier fought with Mughals and was aptly named "Tegh Bahadur" "rich of sword") . He took Bhai Matidass, Bhai Satidass and Bhai DyalDass with him to Delhi to face Aurungzeb. Bhai Dyal Dass, Bhai Matidass and Bhai Satidass were brahmin brothers from Kashmir.

They were asked to show magic to proove their "sacredness" and betterment of their "kaafir" believes over Islam.
Bhai Mati Dass was sawn from head down with a saw but he didn't converted.
Bhai Sati Dass's body was wrapped with oiled cotton and set on fire he didn't converted.
Bhai Dyal dass was put into bowling hot oil but he didn't convert.
Guru Tegh Bahadur ji wrote down "Sir diya par sirar na diya" on a paper and told the executioner that his sword will not strike his head due to the magic of these words. Thus today we are here talking about how to save India from the hands of current Jihadis.

The actions always speak louder than a ritual. Going to temple daily and expecting that you will ace your test is foolish. Spending time reading/writing/practicing is fruitful and will get you to ace your test. practice before ritual is very important.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 24 Nov 2011 03:21

shyam wrote:Bir Khalsa group is doing an enormous service by reviving Sikh martial art. If they continue this show like this, I believe, not just Sikhs or Punjabis, other Indians also will start joining them.

Don't forget to check comments.

Loved the Indian Flag psyops at the end

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 24 Nov 2011 19:57

Thank-You SBajwafor keeping this thread so interesting and full of knowledge.

What has always fascinated me that KP's from Kashmir decided to visit Guru Tegh Bahadur when Sanatan Dharma was trouble and they were being hounded by Mughal Dogs of Aurangzeb. What made them visit him specifically in th whole of India and more fascinating is the fact that he agreed to sacrifice himself in protection of Dharma.
The 9th Guru must have been spiritually very tall for KP's to make him the their last line of defense. Today if you read the history books, they just mention him as father of Guru Govind Singh and he is hardly mentioned in the same breath as the Ist or 10th Guru.
In my masters book, some of his miracles are mentioned which were performed not when Aurangzeb ordered him to perform but only after he was martyred.
I wonder how many Kashmiri Kids would know this story of his sacrifice in details while this story should be the first story ever told to them by grand mothers while growing up.
Despite my tall claims about historical knowledge even I had no idea that Bhai Dyal Dass, Bhai Matidass and Bhai Satidass were brahmin brothers from Kashmir.

"Never forgive & Never forget"

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 24 Nov 2011 21:24

FWIW: From my family record, my great grand father was shri Ram Das, and his great grand father was shri Khurram Rai, and his great grand father was Bhai Mati Das - whom Aurangzeb had sawed in half at Sees Ganj in Dehli.

And yes, I did hear his story from my grand parents

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 Nov 2011 01:13

Parsuram!! You must be very proud to be a descendant of such great personality. Please share this with everybody that you come in contact with.

Vikas! you are welcome. Actually Bhai Dyaldas was not from Kashmir .

Bhai Dayal Dass was son of Bhai Mai Dass and younger brother of martyr Bhai Mani Singh ji. His grandfather, Balu Ram had attained martyrdom while fighting in Guru Hargobind's first battle of faith against the Mughals. His ancestors belonged to Alipur near Multan. Bhai Mai Dass came to Kiratpur for an audience with Guru Har Rai in 1657 A.D. While returning, he left his three elder sons for service of the Guru's institution. Bhai Dayal Dass was fifteen when he entered the Guru's institution.

Bhai Mati Dass and Bhai Sati dass were brahmin brothers from Jehlum District (currently mirpur) I am not sure whether they qualify as "Kashmiri Brahmins" or "Punjabi Brahmis"

Bhai Mati Das came from a Brahman family of village Kariala in the district of Jhelum. He was the eldest son of Bhai Praga. His grandfather, Mahatma Gautam Das, used to be a deeply religious man of noble, saintly character. He was loved and respected by all, Hindus and Muslims alike. Bhai Praga was a strong stalwart.

and how Kashmir Brahmins decided to go meet Guru Tegh Bahadur was that since the martrydom of 5th Guru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji at Lahore, the Sixth Guru Sri Guru Hargobind was going across the length and breadth of current day punjab, haryana, himachal and kashmir asking people to militarize. He had several followers in Kashmir and Bhai Paraga was one such from Jehlum.

Guru Hargobind first created 700 militia army and fought many small battles with mughals all over Punjab against Mughal jahangir. He was captured and imprisoned at Gwalior for some time. Thus when grandson of Mughal Jahangir named Aurungzeb decided to convert people to Islam people generally looked towards the current Guru of Nanak and sought protection.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Nov 2011 01:51

Many details in thread were not kown to us. Thanks for all for educating me and I am sure lot of BF visiters. Threads like this one should me in open so that all lurkers and general public who visit the site will know this kind of information which our commusit media and text books are keep away from the nation.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 Nov 2011 03:02

by Keshav
The site itself is very well made. Was surprised to see that not only does he trace the lineage of the art to Lord Shiva but that the story started with a piece written by Guru Gobind Singh. I thought Sikhs didn't believe in Hindu Gods?

Well the Jats are supposedly born out of Jata of Lord Shiva
The Bhangra dance is actually the Tandav of Shiva's devotees.

Bhang means "Marijuana" or "Shiva's Prasad" and thus originally people danced after getting drunk with Bhang and that dance was called "Bhangra".

Sikhs believe in all Gods and also believe in the formless/genderless/self pervading spirit that created us.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 25 Nov 2011 04:09

Illustrious lineage, Parsuram ji.. my regards to your glorious Purva-Purushas....

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 Nov 2011 04:50

SBajwa wrote:Well The code and sense of brotherhood is what is needed. We need to unite and not divide.

The code was such among khalsa that a young Pathan Woman came to Hari Singh Nalwa asking him that she is in love with him and wants a son just like him having defected her people.

Nalwa told her that he is already married but if she wants a Son just like him than the only way possible is to adopt him as his son.

Such fearless character and belief in your values is the need of the hour along with physical fitness, weapons training and vigilence.
---

Bajwaji:

I remember a similar story about Shivaji:

After one of Shivaji's victories, a captured young Muslim woman, who was the daughter of some high official, was brought before Shivaji as a 'present'. She was very beautiful. This is what Shivaji said: "Maata (mother), I wish my mother had been as beautiful as you, because then I would have been handsome too". (Shivaji was not good-looking -- short, stocky, with a pock-marked face). With that, he sent her back to her family with honour.

This quality of treating even the enemy's women as mother, sister or daughter is what great indic men have always displayed. That's what set us apart.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 25 Nov 2011 06:50

SBajwa Ji: I am from a mohyal family. The mohyal are a group of brahmins also known as warior brahmins. You can look them up in wikipedia and at their website, http://www.mohyal.com. you can also just google "mohyal" and get links to all their sites. And alo go through a copy of their magazine, Mohyal Mitter

PS thanks for all the kind words regarding my family and ancesters. There is nothing I have done that deserves any particular mention.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 25 Nov 2011 09:13

Parsuram ji!! Mohyals have been fighting from last 1500 years for the betterment of Dharma and we should all do the same!!
Lots of us don't even know our ancestors!! You are very fortunate to know your greats!! Make sure that everybody knows about them.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 25 Nov 2011 18:01

SBajwa Ji: I have found places of pilgramage such as Kashi, Haridwar have records of family histories with priests who maintain those records organised by Gotras. A complete list of Gotras is even available on wikipedia. My own family history is recorded at Haridwar, and also in Kashmir. On my last visit to Haridwar I updated the record by entering names of cousins, chidren and grand children, marriges, births and deaths in our book. I was also pleased to read the comments of my great grand father, written in 1890s. I urge every one to visit their family's pilgrimage site and determine and also record their history.

nagesh · Post by **nagesh** » 25 Nov 2011 20:49

Parsuram,feel like touching ur feet!seriously!

parsuram wrote:FWIW: From my family record, my great grand father was shri Ram Das, and his great grand father was shri Khurram Rai, and his great grand father was Bhai Mati Das - whom Aurangzeb had sawed in half at Sees Ganj in Dehli.

And yes, I did hear his story from my grand parents