Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[viveks]

Whoever wins this contract should seriously start considering opening up an R&D center here in india for engineering support. I had voted for the ef2k...but lets c how this pans out.

[Luxtor]

Other than the obvious, direct benefits, the other important thing that Raffy brings to India is diversity of weapon sourcing. If we get all our major weapon systems from one country such as SU-30MKI, or all Raffy or even U.S. or British weapon systems then those countries can blackmail India by means of sanctions, spare parts slow down etc to show their displeasure with Indian policy or conduct etc. Until we are totally self reliant in weapons we continue to diversify our sources.

[SaiK]

EADS can still operate on Indian R&D base. They still have the opportunity to make this a Rafoon! [perhaps may be the reason AS was hinting at]

[Christopher Sidor]

MMRCA in retrospect:
With the PAK-FA/FGFA prototypes already flying,deal signed and sealed with Russia,there was little point in even considering the JSF which was itself the subject of a raging controversy in the US over its delayed arrival,developmental problems and massive cost overruns,prompting even its closest allies like Britain to dump the STOVL version option and drastically reduce numbers of JSFs to be acquired. More importantly,if closest ally Britain could not get 5th-gen JSF tech from the US,fat chance non-ally India would get anything more than screwdriver tech ! The US had also planned a "three-tier" system for export versions depending upon how much moolah an ally had contributed to its development.So one would fly in first,second or third class seats depending upon the price you paid! Lastly,even the USAF were going to get their first sqd. only in 2019 and currently had no aircraft upon which their pilots could be trained.Some US politicos even wanted the whole or part of the project scrapped! To add insult to injury,despite all these well known facts, US diplomutts and military experts kept on touting the JSF through "megaphone" methods,even roping in Indian "cheer leaders",imagining that the IAF were ignoramuses and that a concerted PR campaign would make it dump the two finalists in favour of an aircraft that cannot better the air-to-air combat capability of a '70s vintage F-16!

Nice but flawed write-up as far as JSF is concerned.

Britain dumped the STOVL because of the financial crisis of 2008, which also was the cause of Royal Navy slashing its aircraft carrier program.

US denied UK and its various partners source code, yes. But now it is faced with a situation, where it needs money to finish this program. If the estimated 500 billion USD cuts in pentagon over a period of a decade are anything to go by, then we can safely assume that money is no longer freely flowing into US Defense projects. This is where we have the leverage, where the other partners of US lacked.
We have not asked what US is willing to offer. US has not outlined what it is willing to offer. But based on experience of some tom-dick-and-harry we are all saying with supreme confidence that technology will not be on offer. Yaar, if the offer is not too one's liking then don't take it. But at least don't jump to conclusion on flawed premises. In other words let us have an open mind.

And finally to the about what the politicians of US are saying, about scarping the F-35, those words should be taken with a pinch of salt. Is there any 5th generation fighter, planned or currently flying, which can meet the capabilities of F-35B and F-35C variant? We got a fighter which exceeded F-15 fighter capabilities, i.e SU-30MKI, only in 1990s, approximately 20 years after F-15 was first inducted into USAF. Do we want to have an encore ?

[krishnan]

F-15 was different....no one expect russia and probably france had the capability to build anything like that in terms or tech or money...many still dont have the former but there are few who do have the later and willing to put in effort

[member_20453]

Phillip & Badar +400 lovely posts.

Septimus has, in his post, claimed that the Tiffy was better technically. But, my knowladge is contrary: Raffy was better. Be that as it may, at least I sit back with the satisfaction that we have the best of the lot at a lower price. While I sip my wine.

It is clear EF is technically superior, its top speed is higher, has a higher flight ceiling, has better turns with loads, faster acceleration, better g-suits that allow for longer duration 9G turns, shorter take offs, super cruise with weapons, towed decoys, retractable probe etc, space for a bigger AESA, TVC available

Rafale only has a ready AESA, longer range, higher payload, slightly better performance at low altitude?

Overall in tech specs, it is sure EF must have met more parameters. Raffy is L-1, lowest bidder. IAF shortlisted both since it can live with both.

[Surya]

now now Sanku

does nothing to change anything about shukla and T 90\Arjun

and without shukla and T 90 we still demolish the tin can nonsense

he should stick to Army topics and covering PSUs etc

[Badar]

Britain dumped the STOVL because of the financial crisis of 2008, which also was the cause of Royal Navy slashing its aircraft carrier program.

Umm, RN didn't just dump the STOVL component, but switched over to CATOBAR. This didn't save money but increased program cost (installing and operating the catapults). Saving might accrue from mothballing one deck, not from dropping STOVL. However it is painted, RN bailed out on the F-35B as a lemon.

US denied UK and its various partners source code, yes. But now it is faced with a situation, where it needs money to finish this program. If the estimated 500 billion USD cuts in pentagon over a period of a decade are anything to go by, then we can safely assume that money is no longer freely flowing into US Defense projects. This is where we have the leverage, where the other partners of US lacked.

JSF is not facing trouble due to increased development costs (though they are a factor, it will not impact program viability). There is sufficient money for development *if* there is a reasonable expectation that the final product will meet some semblance of projected capability, purchase and operation costs. All three are quite iffy at the moment.

US *may* make us an exception and give us source code that it doesn't to even its most trusted industrial partners? The crown jewels of its technological capability will be handed over for a measly 10-20 billion purchase? You realize the prime impulse for US to continue down the JSF path is primarily industrial? You think there is any shortage of money for that? Nope.

We have not asked what US is willing to offer. US has not outlined what it is willing to offer. But based on experience of some tom-dick-and-harry we are all saying with supreme confidence that technology will not be on offer. Yaar, if the offer is not too one's liking then don't take it. But at least don't jump to conclusion on flawed premises. In other words let us have an open mind.

We did. The US offered us a desultory F-16 and an outstanding F-18IN.

Is there any 5th generation fighter, planned or currently flying, which can meet the capabilities of F-35B and F-35C variant?

The question is not if a non-US aircraft can meet the F-35 specs. Can the F-35 reality meet the F-35 power-point specs? Or will there be another 'restructuring' another set of lowered targets which the F-35 will pass with 'flying colors'.

F-35 might ultimately turn out to be the P-51 of its generation. But at the moment the program is on very shaky ground. Hitching IAF's future to the unknown perils and pleasures of F-35 is a risky business at best. Even the immature FGFA looks a safer long term bet at the moment.

We got a fighter which exceeded F-15 fighter capabilities, i.e SU-30MKI, only in 1990s, approximately 20 years after F-15 was first inducted into USAF. Do we want to have an encore ?

The fundamental flaw is not the ability or lack thereof of the F-35. But the reliability and trust in the US of A as a defense source.

We have purchased items which will not impact the bottom line security wise (C-17). Or where no good alternatives existed (P-8) or where they will make a minimal impact if they decide to screw us (C-130) or cheap training equipment (Jalashwa). But a core purchase like a quarter of the air fleet combat strength? I don't think India is ready to get into bed with the to that extent.

Let's India and US neck for a bit, fourth base can wait.

[Fidel Guevara]

If there are 80 more planes coming, how about trying out some US maal (if they can offer cut-rate prices, of course)? 60 of the excellent F18IN, including maybe 20 with Growler gear. A few late-model F16s, a few F15s...just to get a handle on what US-equipped air forces have. The vaunted "kill switch" that Pakis are so afraid of, won't really be a concern for India, and if you configure the deal right, the aircraft should be sanction-proof (AMRAAM sanctioned? No problem, just use MICA instead, etc)

[kelesis]

Sorry, I can't resist

[K Mehta]

This is just L1 select done, there's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip.
We may scrap this deal too!
doing the anti-jinx mantra.

[member_20067]

If there are 80 more planes coming, how about trying out some US maal (if they can offer cut-rate prices, of course)? 60 of the excellent F18IN, including maybe 20 with Growler gear. A few late-model F16s, a few F15s...just to get a handle on what US-equipped air forces have. The vaunted "kill switch" that Pakis are so afraid of, won't really be a concern for India, and if you configure the deal right, the aircraft should be sanction-proof (AMRAAM sanctioned? No problem, just use MICA instead, etc)

you are joking right..? You don't have a bottomless pit of gold...use of some that fund to improve the pay packages and other facilities for the defense forces overall..buy some artillery may be.. build some infra in north east may be.. this is not a video game..

[Prem]

http://defensetech.org/2012/01/31/rafale-wins-in-india/
Rafale Wins in India

France finally scored an international customer for its Rafale fighter jet. After years and years of fits, starts and frustrations, India’s medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest ended this morning with a French victory.Remember, MMRCA pitted the Rafale against everything from the Eurofighter Typhoon and Mig-29 to the American made F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16.Now that the Rafale has been declared winner, officials from Dassault and India will hammer out the price for the 129 fighter deal.

Check the comments, an Inbred Paki demonstrating his incestuous inception.

[arthuro]

The Eurofighter has lost all its games against the Rafale
La Tribune, Feb 1


Each time the Eurofighter has been competing against the Rafale, it's the latter who have lead. Even if this was never a guarantee of success in the end for the french aircraft. India confirms the predominance of the Rafale against the Eurofighter.

Facing the Rafale, the Eurofighter (BAE Systems, EADS and Finmeccanica) just can't do it ... because, despite its few export success (Austria, Saudi Arabia ...), this fighter has always been leaded by the french aircraft manufactured by Dassault Aviation in all the competitions in which they both participated. This gives an insight to the victory of the Rafale, selected by New Delhi to enter into exclusive negotiations.
It was the case in the Netherlands in early 2002 when the Dutch air force evaluated the aircrafts in competition (85 fighters). The F-35 Lockheed Martin was slightly ahead of the Rafale (6.97 against 6.95). However, the Eurofighter Typhoon dragged far behind with a score of 5.83. The same year, the aircraft manufactured by the European consortium was eliminated by South Korea at the pre-selection phase (short list) as part of the tender KF-X for the purchase of 40 fighter aircraft . The South Korea Air Force ranked Rafale first among the three aircraft evaluated (F-15E Boeing, Eurofighter) after technical and financial evaluations and offsets. In the end, Boeing had won the competition on purely political criteria.
New duel, this time in the skies of Singapore in 2005. Again, the Ministry of Defence of the city-state, which wants to buy 20 fighter as part of the NFRP tender eliminates the European aircraft. The Rafale in the final faces again the Boeing F-15E. The U.S. offer won in September 2005 on political considerations. The release of Dassault Aviation is also clear: "the US weight gives again due to the Chinese proverb: Bamboo always leans toward the side that push stronger." Dassault Aviation also lost due to the weak dollar this year.
New cold shower for the Eurofighter, October 1, 2008 in Brazil, which is eliminated from the "F-X2" competition while the Rafale, the Gripen NG (Saab) and the F-18E / F Super Hornet (Boeing) are shortlisted. In the end, the Brazilians enter into exclusive negotiations with Dassault Aviation, but dramatic turn of events , in December 2010, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said during a TV interview, he will not decide before the end of his term on January 1 for the purchase of 36 fighter planes, an order estimated at between 4 and 7 billion.
The last battle lost by the Eurofighter against the Rafale is recent. It was in Switzerland in 2011, where the Rafale is also topped the evaluations. But it is the Gripen NG[...] which won.

[SaiK]

kelesis,

do you have an enhanced pic like those for:-

1. the latest and greatest cockpit
2. there was a pic showing the radar t/rs
3. front shot that visual inside the inlets - deep enough to view where it hits the blades [if].
4. front one without that excited refuel pod
5. any pic showing the side lobe t/rs

tia
-=============

from the BRF hindu link:

At a more immediate level, the decision to buy the fighters, which has been greeted with unabashed glee in Paris, could provide the leverage for India to hold France to its promise of increasing cooperation across a whole range of areas, but especially in the nuclear and defence fields, including the greater sharing of technology and expertise. Of particular interest to New Delhi, is the question of enrichment and reprocessing (ENR) equipment transfers. The Nuclear Suppliers Group reneged on its 2008 bargain with India last year by banning the sale of ENR items but France — a key member of the nuclear cartel — has said it will not be bound by the new restrictions. The French must now be held to their word. As for the IAF, the acquisition of the Rafales may stem, in the near- or medium-term, the problem of the reducing number of squadrons. However, the IAF's long-term combat aircraft requirements will need to be met by developing the promised fifth-generation fighter in cooperation with Russia and overcoming the problems that have delayed the induction of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.

so, that is a good news in the sense, pak-fa is sort 'cause of delay Tejas. That is a happy thought though.

[Kartik]

Was just watching the NDTV programme.... a certain person in the programme peddling the F-35 deal and then, later, his views on the ToT....would even a layperson watching the programme take him seriously, after listening to the views of this man?

I had to shut it off once Ajai Shukla started talking..really diametrically opposite views as far as I am concerned. To say that the Rafale "doesn't meet the specifications" (which he said in his first statement itself) is so far from the truth, as to make it laughable. The rest of his arguments are specious as well.

[Snehashis]

SaiK, here is the radar close up.


http://sitelife.aviationweek.com/ver1.0 ... c.Full.jpg

[SaiK]

thank you, and again that grotesque refueler../sorry.

[sudeepj]

I am puzzled as to why people are so eager to resort to hidden reasons or conspiracy theories to explain the deal? Why can't it be exactly what it is claimed to be - a technical face off followed by least cost bid? People who extrapolate this deal to have side effects on nuclear tech, access to future tech etc are uninformed or delusional. If we are lucky we will get exactly what we paid for - nothing more. You want more? You will have to pay through the nose separately for that - bringing up "Defense-Deal-X" will only serve to bring up derisive snicker from the French/British or whoever we are in negotiation with.

Because they are experiencing a serious case of buyers remorse? $80-90 million for an aircraft that does not bring revolutionary capabilities to the airforce of a poor country.

Someone asked what will Rafale be bringing to the party that IAF currently doesn't have? Why not more Super-30 rather than Rafale? Ignoring industrial, economic, geo-political and interplanetary arguments:

Strategic : Source diversification - many eggs in many baskets. Leaves IAF less vulnerable to potential political, economic or other downturns/extortion from the primary source nation. IAF has long followed this approach Fulcrum/Mirage, Bahadur/Shamsher etc.

Source diversification was a good strategy when we were doing screwdriver tech and new very little abt the platforms.

But we are already manufacturing SU30MKIs from raw materials.. If we are doing so, and we have the source codes (since we made the mission computers), what stops us from integrating new weapons, new radars etc.?

Operational : Rafale will will though allow IAF to do the same stuff MKI does, but in a different way. The Su-30MKI might be adequate as a force majeure over Pakistan, but less credible wrt China. In those denser air defense environs the Rafale's discretion *may* prove to be the better than the MKI's valour. (This explanation worked for my nephew: MKI is like a cheetah, you can see it coming but there is little you can do to escape an encounter with it. In contrast the Rafale is akin to an ambush predator like a Tiger. So no new capability additions, but whole new ways of skinning the cat).

There are two kinds of stealth. Stealth shaping, and jammers. Rafale has a lower radar signature than gen4 fighters, but not all aspect, and nowhere near the effort put into the gen5 planes. It appears to have a very capable jammer.

All the Chinese have to do is to develop a bistatic radar and guidance system, and the semi stealth goes for a toss. The only way to deal with dense air defense environs is massed, cheap cruise missiles and stand off weapons. Half way solutions will not get you there.

Also, are these planes being bought for a SEAD role? What stops us from buying or making in cooperation, an SPJ suite for LCA or SU30MKI?

Tactical : Rafale will be IAF's first run in with a semi-stealthy design. Hands on extended operation with the Rafale will allow the IAF to understand, acquire and practice the realities of air combat with LO in play. It will enrich IAF understanding of practical aspects of stealth - both its limitations and strengths. We will learn not only how to optimally use stealth but also to figure out what it takes to counter it. We might spend a good part of the decade working out the optimal interplay of AEW, MKI and Rafale synergy.

Thats a really expensive lesson being peddled. The threat will come from a J20, not a semi stealth solution.

[krisna]

Thats a really expensive lesson being peddled. The threat will come from a J20, not a semi stealth solution.

what is this J20. you keep quoting this number.
what are its charcateristics, capabilities proven. How many are in service or when will they come and what will happen to us.

will we be shivering in our dhotis?
I would like to go to a nearby shop to get some.

[sudeepj]

Thats a really expensive lesson being peddled. The threat will come from a J20, not a semi stealth solution.

what is this J20. you keep quoting this number.
what are its charcateristics, capabilities proven. How many are in service or when will they come and what will happen to us.

will we be shivering in our dhotis?
I would like to go to a nearby shop to get some.

Its an adversary aircraft that you are underestimating It has flown a few times, and attaching a slow speed of development, it will be entering service in numbers about 7-10 years from now. At that time, we will probably have 2-3 squadrons of Rafale with more to follow.

Can the Rafale go toe to toe against a plane with a radar optimized shape?

[eklavya]

Its an adversary aircraft that you are underestimating It has flown a few times, and attaching a slow speed of development, it will be entering service in numbers about 7-10 years from now. At that time, we will probably have 2-3 squadrons of Rafale with more to follow.

Can the Rafale go toe to toe against a plane with a radar optimized shape?

sudeepj,

i will answer your question, but please could you tell us how to correctly estimate:

1) The radar cross section of the J20
2) What sensors the J20 intends to use to detect the Rafale
3) The vulnerability (or not) of the J20's sensors to jamming
4) The infra red signature of the J20 and its engines
5) The missiles to be used by the J20, their range, and their vulnerability to jamming
6) Some basic aerodynamic data on the J20

Bahut shukriya advance mein

[JohnTitor]

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... /222680?hp

After watching this, I seem to have lost almost all respect for a certain F35 peddler. The argument that we should get the F35 even though it might be delayed by 5-7 years seems ludicrous! I suppose he is OK if the squadron strength falls to 25-30 during that period!

If we are to procure the F35 in addition to the Rafales, thats fine.. but not instead of!

[krisna]

Its an adversary aircraft that you are underestimating It has flown a few times, and attaching a slow speed of development, it will be entering service in numbers about 7-10 years from now. At that time, we will probably have 2-3 squadrons of Rafale with more to follow.

Can the Rafale go toe to toe against a plane with a radar optimized shape?

j20 is already up and running tv ads all over.
look at J20


About the J20 --- It sure is stealthy being not visible in the news.
I will postpone my dhoti shopping spree for a few more years.

[sudeepj]

Its an adversary aircraft that you are underestimating It has flown a few times, and attaching a slow speed of development, it will be entering service in numbers about 7-10 years from now. At that time, we will probably have 2-3 squadrons of Rafale with more to follow.

Can the Rafale go toe to toe against a plane with a radar optimized shape?

sudeepj,

i will answer your question, but please could you tell us how to correctly estimate:

1) The radar cross section of the J20
2) What sensors the J20 intends to use to detect the Rafale
3) The vulnerability (or not) of the J20's sensors to jamming
4) The infra red signature of the J20 and its engines
5) The missiles to be used by the J20, their range, and their vulnerability to jamming
6) Some basic aerodynamic data on the J20

Bahut shukriya advance mein

My dear fellow, this data is obviously not available with me beyond very broad strokes - like it will have an integrated SPJ, it will have an AESA radar, it will have some infrared optimization of engines (recall the case of the desi engineer convicted for passing on infrared optimization technology to the Chinese), it will have R77 equivalent missiles,...

If someone was to suggest that Rafale cant go toe to toe with F35, would you consider the possibility or demand all kinds of "impossible to obtain in the open domain", technical data?

[eklavya]

Can the Rafale go toe to toe against a plane with a radar optimized shape?

If someone was to suggest that Rafale cant go toe to toe with F35, would you consider the possibility or demand all kinds of "impossible to obtain in the open domain", technical data?

Now, is it only me that finds your two questions above consistency-challenged?

The F35 comes from the American stable of fighters, and on the basis that F-22 is the Top Kutta, F-35 should not be too bad either. If I were a betting man, would not like to pick a fight with Top Kutta's chota brother.

[sudeepj]

Can the Rafale go toe to toe against a plane with a radar optimized shape?

If someone was to suggest that Rafale cant go toe to toe with F35, would you consider the possibility or demand all kinds of "impossible to obtain in the open domain", technical data?

Now, is it only me that finds your two questions above consistency-challenged?

The F35 comes from the American stable of fighters, and on the basis that F-22 is the Top Kutta, F-35 should not be too bad either. If I were a betting man, would not like to pick a fight with Top Kutta's chota brother.

I dont see the contradiction. Both my statements drive towards some obvious disadvantages that Rafale will have in going against a radar optimized plane.

Pedigree is certainly a factor in giving the american planes a lot of respect, but a lack of pedigree is no reason to look down on an adversary. The Chinese have shown a lot of focus and persistence in developing their indigenous defense base, and one of these days, it will pay off. Just as it will in our case if we get our act together, if not with the LCA, then the MCA.

Btw.. what pedigree did Eklavya have?

[eklavya]

sudeepj,

Agree we should not underestimate the adversary, not when they have a $5tn economy, fast hurtling towards no. 1 in the world.

Having said that, I see PAF salivating for F-16 Block 50/AMRAAM, whereas Rafale/METEOR/MICA aces even the F-16 Block 60 (as per IAF's 600 parameters anyway). This tells me that Chinese radar / electronic warfare / missile tech is still significantly lagging the West (otherwise why would PAF seek the Block 50s). How long that lasts I cannot tell. Hopefully at least until China becomes a dost and not a dushman, but we cannot rely on that happening either. I fear rather the reverse if the CPC grip begins to wobble and they seek some adventure to unify their people.

my pedigree is 100% warrior but the genes appear to have skipped a generation!

[Prem]

http://thedignifiedrant.blogspot.com/20 ... rance.html
You Can Only Rent France

India has decided to go with the French Rafale for their new fighter:
India has decided to buy 126 fighter jets from French firm Dassault in a $11 billion deal that is one of the world's largest arms contracts.Apparently, the Indians decided it was best to lock France into supplying India with arms rather than see France sell arms to China.I can't say India is wrong for thinking that way.
But India may underestimate France's duplicity. We'll see if France remains an exclusively India arms supplier in Asia

.

[srai]

Let's do some weapon package costs (specific to Rafale):

• 500 x MICA @€1 billion (additional to the 490 ordered for M2K-5 upgrade)
• 500 x Meteor @€1 billion
• 500 x 250kg AASM @€175 million (@€350,000 a piece)
• 200 x Scalp ALCM @€160 million (@€800,000 a piece)
• 100 x Exocet AShM @€100 million

Total (costs): ~€2.5 billion

[shukla]

More on sore loosers...

Kick in the teeth? India’s choice disappoints UK 'ouch'
Hindustan times

Cameron leads the attack onIndian decision on Rafale
The Hindu

Cameron opens fire on France's 'Asda option' jet as he vows to do everything he can to persuade India
Daily Mail

Fighter punch stuns Britain - Cameron calls IAF move ‘disappointing’, keeps hope alive
Telegraph

Must say even the Americans took the news better..

[NRao]

He huffed and he puffed.

Just electoral noise.

However, he may get the other 80 if he decides to pipe down a wee bit.

[Philip]

Frankly I'm amazed at "sour puss" DC and his Tory cronies who have criticised the Indian decision.The attitude expressed by some MPs to explore "legal action against India",forgetting that the days of empire ended 60+ years ago and we no longer kowtow to any nation,is so ludicrous and offensive that India should threaten to leave the Commonwealth if such threats and tripe are to be the hallmarks of the new British foreign policy! In fact,David Cameron was spot on when he said that we picked "Asda" instead of "Waitrose".I love picking up delicacies at Waitrose,but find shopping at the huge food market in Kensington cheaper and equally good quality wise,and that is what India has done,buy an equally fine aircraft the equal of the EF for a lower price.

We are also not a British military ally,or have a relationship with it as it has with the US,sending our troops to fight its foreign wars like mercenaries (OZ),and therefore be obliged to buy British first.One must recall my posts from Janes',where British MPs have severly criticised the Typhoon,whether Britain was getting enough bang for her buck,given the huge cost of the aircraft's acquisition and tardy development of Tranche-3.The maze of bureaucracy,where every partner has to approve any upgrade also would turn every little meeting into an international summit.

Yes,Britain has given us much aid in the past and present,we are grateful,but India has also saved British industry (JLR,Corus,Mittal,etc.),which Pres.Sarko made fun of recently! Fine,if the ruling MPs want to stop all aid to India,and be crude and offensive towards us,so be it,we can also react too,play the same game,and cancel the extra Hawks on order and buy far cheaper and equally good Yakovlev-130 trainers from "old friend" Russia (the Yak-130 is able to replicate the characteristics of several 4+ generation fighters as well as the fifth-generation Sukhoi T-50. It can also perform light-attack and reconnaissance duties, carrying a combat load of 3,000 kg.),after all Russia is already supplying the engine for our IJT.
Or even Italy's excellent Aermacchi's M-346 just selected by Israel (Israel's air force has reportedly recommended buying Italy's M-346 Master advanced jet trainer, rather than South Korea's T-50 Golden Eagle, to replace its aging U.S.-built A-4 Skyhawks in a fiercely contested $1 billion contract.)!

The big Q: Would Britain and Dave C have reacted with such intemperance had we chosen a Yanqui bird instead? Not on your nelly mate! It is the venom against the old enemy France and the recent massive spat between Britain vs her Euro allies,esp. France and Germany over the financial health of the EU that has prompted this outburst.The very public faceoff between DC and Sarko and the manner in which DC was hailed back home as a hero (as if he had won another battle of Waterloo) in giving the Euro the upturned finger,has soured relations intensely.India's decision has been (asininely) received by DC and co. as a frontal insult,taking the side of "Boney" and giving the Brits the upturned finger too!

To illustrate how hilarious the situ is,here's an epic piece from a much-loved British satirical mag which takes a self-swipe at Brits too.

Bank of France chief taunts Britain.

"You don't frighten us English pig dogs.Go and boil your bottoms,you son of a silly person.I don't want to talk to you no more,you empty headed food trough wiper.I fart in your general direction.Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries."

PS:As for those who think that other strategic considerations (though tangential) were absent from the deal,think again.Read the Hindu's centre page article on "Strategic lift in Rafale tailwind" by Sandeep Dikshit.Where the deal "is expected to add momentum to France's interest in working with India in intelligence sharing and nuclear technology".

Key points:
From P-2 and the Kargil War,South Block has recognised the "steadfastness of France in standing by India".It was also perhaps the "only country" which did not cancel maritime exercises with us after the P-2 nuclear tests,when others imposed sanctions.A year later it stood by us during the Kargil War and the superb performance of M-2000 fighters.

Delhi now expects Sarko to stand by his commitment of a "complete" civil N-partnership with India,including ENR,which the N-cartel is trying to deny India."Unknown to the public at large",two years after Independence,France joined hands with India in civil nuclear cooperation in thorium extraction and FBT tech."In 1998,pres.Chirac also opened talks for setting up 6 Areva reactors ,the first nation after Russia to do so,when the rest of Europe and the US were plotting to emasculate the Indian nuclear industry by placing tech transfer restrictions and blacklisting Indian companies."

French intel particularly in the IOR/Africa (France's backyard) was earlier planned (two intel listening stations were set up by France on our western coast manned by our intel personnel) as a tri-lateral effort between France,India and Iran,but after the Shah's overthrow,ended the effort,which now with the advent of spy sats would be a JV only between the two.

Though the French have always complained that India was under more Anglo-Saxon influence ,this deal will substantially help refute that impression and set the stage for more mutual cooperation in each other's strategic interests and in global politics.

[jaladipc]

“Today I have called for radical reform of the Indian high commission’s role in promoting UK-India trade…. India House has now been without a high commissioner for seven months, something that would be inconceivable in Beijing or Washington. This demonstrates that the ministry for external affairs in Delhi no longer sees the UK as strategically vital to India’s interests,” said Gardiner.

Lol..... these brits ammuse me to the max possible extent.
And their bickering about some yet to be donated aid, and all silly bully brings their wotever chances for the remaining 80 a/c down to 0.

I love the tid-bit of that high-commission

[Singha]

the ghost of the WG30 westland deal is finally laid to rest.

Srai sir, we would need a much larger number of GBU, BLU, CBU and JDAM type weapons in addition to the AASM you added (presumably for high value targets not shooting at tanks like the french did!)

also why not the SDB2 which is reputed to be cheaper? iirc the JDAM kits minus the cost of bomb are $20k

[suryag]

Philip sir the aid that Brits have provided pales in comparison the sterling reserves that they expropriated from us after WW2(and you know that). Even if you forget the monumental loot that they indulged in for two centuries the money that they provide us as aid may cover a part of the interest that they owe us. No need to thank them for the aid they give. Btw it would be nice if they are wiling to negotiate a better price than the rafa

[g.sarkar]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/bus ... 14,00.html
EADS Loses Massive Contract
India Opts For French Fighter Jets
By Hasnain Kazim
"French defense manufacturer Dassault has beaten EADS for the right to negotiate exclusively with the Indian government on the sale of 126 fighter jets. Still, the deal could ultimately collapse -- in the past, all other talks to sell Dassault's Rafale aircraft abroad have failed.
Experts already thought it was a done deal that India would purchase Europe's prestigious Eurofighter fighter jets -- if for no other reason than the fact that the purchase would have made India the fifth country in the EADS consortium, as the government in New Delhi had been promised. In a recent letter to her Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh, German Chancellor Angela Merkel wrote that India would become a "fifth partner country" next to Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy.
Besides, who's ever even heard of the Rafale fighter jet? French defense firm Dassault has unsuccessfully tried to sell its aircraft to Morocco, Brazil, Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates. In the end, though, not a single potential buyer bit. Outside of the French air force, no other country has any Dassault fighter jets in its fleet. That's why officials in Paris went out of their way to tout how well the fighter jet had served France recently during deployments in Afghanistan and Libya. For his part, 86-year-old Dassault Chairman and CEO Serge Dassault has publicly stated over and over again that he sells the "world's best airplane."
On Tuesday, India astounded experts by deciding in favor of the Rafale. The country is now planning to purchase a total of 126 fighter jets in a contract that will be valued at around $10 billion. The aircraft will replace the Indian air force's older planes and will ultimately comprise one of the biggest deals in global defense history.
Observers in India also expressed surprise over Tuesday's move. "We had assumed that the Eurofighter would be purchased because it would have enabled India to simultaneously befriend four European countries," one Indian air force officer said after learning of the government's decision.
Officials at the Indian Defense Ministry have stated the government decided in favor of Dassault because it made the lowest bid, and that that alone had been the decisive criteria. But neither Dassault nor the Indian government has publicly stated anything about the exact price. Indian newspapers are speculating that the price of the Dassault fighter jets was about $5 million cheaper per unit than the pitch made by EADS for its Eurofighter Tycoon aircraft. In addition to Dassault, the Eurofighter consortium, American defense giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Swedish manufacturer Saab and the Russian Aircraft Corportation, with its Mig-35, all competed for the contract. The news leaked in April that the Rafale and the Eurofighter had been shortlisted in the competition........"
Gautam

[SaiK]

What is more http://www.dhoti.shiver.value (DSV) is that the fact we have gone through transparent selection process especially w.r.t technical evaluation.. This one news is the scariest piece of info for any nation trying to think of 126 Rafale with India, plus super sukhois. It would make even the j20s look pale, in terms of DSV value. Even the khans after tech eval, agreed about the facts, and hurried for JSF offer.

Well done IAF! keep up the good work. I hope the price negotiations would be done without any unwanted items drawing all kinds of attentions. must keep similar transparency till the order is placed.

[Prem]

Rona, Kabhi nahi Rona,Chahe na Bikke Terra Khilona
India's Technology Windfall And U.S. Myopia

Yesterday brought news that India has selected France's Dassault as the preferred bidder for a hundred or more advanced fighter aircraft, the Rafale, in a deal worth up to $30 billion over ten years. Russia, the US and the Eurofighter consortium had also bid on the deal and the deal was so coveted that President Obama personally pushed the US bids on his last visit to India. The U.S. amabassador to India resigned the day after the U.S. bid was rejected.
But while the public talk from India is of a better airframe, more able to withstand the Indian climate, I strongly suspect that the real reason the Rafale won the bidding war is that French President Nicholas Sarkozy had last year promised an unprecedented technology transfer, including machine tools and military secrets, if the French plane won - a promise he has now said France will keep to. Only the Russian bid offered anything similiar, and india is well aware Russian tech does not meet Euro heights.So, in ten years time India will have the plants and the know-how to make advanced military aircraft - and the technology will have rapidly filtered into other areas of Indian manufacturing, giving India a massive leg up in its bid for superpowerdom. The deal was too sweet not to take, and the U.S. government was foolish and prideful not to offer something similiar. Indeed, U.S. policy towards India has been extrordinarily myopic for years, perhaps because the major military and foreign policy apparatchiks have been befuddled by General Kayani of Pakistan's Jedi mind tricks and false promises of more complete Pakistani co-operation. Pakistan's primary economic and military ally is and will remain China, not America, and it's about time U.S. administrations recognised this.
India, the natural counter-balance to China, is feeling ignored and unloved by the U.S. after the false spring of Bush's nuclear giveaway and the bipartisan rush to sell India lots of expensive but obsolescent weaponry. And it's trying to create a new strategy that accepts the reality of America and the West's continuing bamboozlement by Pakistan - including through outreach to nations like Iran. India is well aware that war between the regional superpowers is not at all unlikely in the future but like China would prefer economic battles. Technology transfers like the Rafale deal give India a leg up either way, and if America wants a powerful democratic ally in the region it should be offering such transfers at every opportunity rather than leaving it to Europe to become India's preferred future trading par

[rajanb]

Thats a really expensive lesson being peddled. The threat will come from a J20, not a semi stealth solution.

what is this J20. you keep quoting this number.
what are its charcateristics, capabilities proven. How many are in service or when will they come and what will happen to us.

will we be shivering in our dhotis?
I would like to go to a nearby shop to get some.

Krisna, one pooch please.

Are you going to the shop to buy the shivers or the dhothis? I discarded my shivers as a kid. I need to go buy some if you tell me where?