LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 13 Dec 2013 18:08

KaranM - anywhere we can see the pic ? Thanks

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Dec 2013 18:19

Marten wrote:Not sure if this hardpoint chasing is sensible.

Correct.

Will · Post by **Will** » 13 Dec 2013 19:02

Any news at all on when the first prototype of the MkII is expected?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Dec 2013 01:22

Karan M wrote:i'd wait to see actual load outs before taking gripen PR as achievable. some of their range payload figures in the past, were fudged/misleading as well.

During the MMRCA PR onslaught, they were claiming a max payload for the NG almost equal to that of the Typhoon. After that I take anything that Saab puts out in their brochures with a bucketful of salt.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2013 02:48

is that a operational limit of 22-24* AoA (reduced for safe ops) or that is the stall AoA (design limit) for tejas?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Dec 2013 07:11

NAL technologies for Tejas to set benchmarks for future fighter programmes

Bangalore: As India prepares to give the initial operational clearance (IOC-2) to its home grown fighter Tejas on December 20, the scientists at the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) are delighted that over 20 years of their hard work will finally pay rich dividends. NAL Director Shyam Chetty said that the technologies developed for Tejas will set new benchmarks for India's future fighter jet development programmes. The control law team consisting of members from NAL, ADA and HAL which he heads, had provided decisive leadership in developing the flight control laws including the autopilot, simulation and modelling. The team also developed advanced parameter identification techniques used for flight validation and updation of the aerodynamic database for safe flight envelope expansion of the Tejas. “Fourteen variants of Tejas have completed over 2450 flights. The 17 Test pilots, who flew Tejas so far, have rated the flying qualities of the aircraft as excellent,” Shyam said during his team's interaction with Express on Friday.
V Nagarajan, chief scientist and head of National Trisonic Aerodynamic Facility at NAL, which houses the country's only 1.2-m trisonic wind tunnel, said that stores separation tests (a critical operation that could affect the safety of the fighter during weapon release), was analysed at NAL's wind-tunnel facility. Necessary data was generated to enable safe store separation in flight. The scientists had also conducted complex air intake buzz studies to establish the safe flight envelope boundary limits for the aircraft engine. “This is important as the disturbed air flow entering the air intakes can cause the engine performance to deteriorate suddenly and thus affect the safety of flight,” said Dr G K Suryanarayana, chief scientist.
...
...

Read in full, also has some pics of wind tunnel modelling etc.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2013 07:47

putnanja wrote:NAL technologies for Tejas to set benchmarks for future fighter programmes

Another first for the country, according to Dr Jatinder Singh, a chief scientist, was the successful flight validation and update of the aerodynamic database used extensively for simulation and design of the flight control laws. “It involved carrying out 500 plus flight tests for identifying the differences in flight when compared to simulation,” he said.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2013 09:17

It involved carrying out 500 plus flight tests for identifying the differences in flight when compared to simulation

why leave out the most important model feedback information?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Dec 2013 10:23

No slats and MLG doors are open. Wind tunnel testing of the Main Landing Gear doors as air brakes? It was a sought after aerodynamic improvement.

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Dec 2013 11:13

If the MLG doors are used as airbrakes, won't that affect the take-off by increasing drag ?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Dec 2013 11:44

Tejas LCA will be battle-ready by 2014: Browne

Tejas, India's first indigenously designed and developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), would be fully battle-ready by 2014, Indian Air Force chief N.A.K. Browne said in the Meghalaya capital Thursday.

"Tejas, a fourth-generation fighter aircraft, will replace MIG 21 ... and the aircraft will be the LCA Mark I Type. Forty of them will be inducted by the IAF by end-2014," Air Chief Marshal Browne told journalists at the Advance Landing Ground in Upper Shillong.

"Eight days from now, I will head to Bangalore, where we are doing the acceptance of the initial operation clearance, the second operation clearance, for the Tejas LCA so Defence Minister A.K. Antony will also be there."

The air chief, who retires Dec 31, was here on a farewell visit to the Eastern Air Command headquarters.

"We have already begun work to develop Tejas Mark Two aircraft which will be fitted with GE engines. The Mark II Type aircraft will be developed from the basic Mark I and it will have far better improvement in radar systems, powerful engines and even other features," Browne said.

"It (Tejas Mark II) will also have more fuel, more powerful engine and that will actually be the future for the air force in terms of replacement for MIG 21," he said.

Apart from the Tejas aircraft, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale fighter aircraft would also be inducted to further strengthen the assets of the Indian Air Force, the outgoing air chief said.

"Negotiations are going on with regard to the Rafale fighter aircraft. We have a little bit of a set back, as you know, the JSO (joint secretary-operation) who was handling the case passed away two months back. However, a new joint secretary has been appointed last week to take charge of the negotiations. They are having meeting this time. I am hopeful that by next year we are able to wrap up this case," Browne said.

He said delivery of the French MMRCA Rafale fighter aircraft was expected to take place by 2017.

On the phasing out of MIG-21 aircraft, Browne said: "It was a watershed moment for the Indian Air Force because this was the (MIG 21) aircraft which all our fighter pilots, including me and a generation of pilots, had been trained on. It has done its job well."

"So one major phase has passed, and now we look forward to the induction of the Tejas in the Indian Air Force," he said.

The highlighted part is as direct as it can be from the horses mouth on the final number for LCA Mk1/Mk2.

My guess would be 40 LCA Mk1 and ~200-220 LCA MK2 to replace ~260 Mig21's in service.

The production of Mk1 will most likely be at 8 per year and 40 planes would be delivered in 5 years keeping production going till 2018. Mk2 will be ready for production around 2018-19 and the 2nd line will be established around that time and production ramped up to 16 per year from then on. Seems to be the most cost effective scheduling option IMHO.

At 16 per year, 200 LCA will probably take 12 years i.e starting 2018 till 2030 and those 12 years for AMCA to take shape and go into production. So expect AMCA to go into production around 2030. The final numbers might change if LCA Mk2 / AMCA take more than 5/12 years respectively to go into production.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Dec 2013 13:52

Sanjay, vina - will try and dig it up.

Nachiket -exactly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Dec 2013 14:01

Here it is (note 1 mistake - the radar is actually the hybrid HAL/LRDE-Elta MMR not Elta MMR)

http://defenseblog-njs.blogspot.in/2011 ... phase.html

In the next few months, Tejas platforms will fire air-to-ground munitions such as cluster weapons, laser-guided bombs and S-8 rocket pods against still and moving targets. Rafael’s Derby beyond-visual-range missile is expected to be a standard on the Tejas, with trials scheduled a year from now. Reports suggest a contract could be signed shortly. In its final Mk.1 configuration, the air force also expects the Tejas to be fully capable of deploying Kh-59-series stand-off strike weapons and Kh-35/31 antiship missiles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Dec 2013 14:57

^^^ Will take the Kh-59 , Kh-35 and 31 capability news with bagful of salt , no were in the umpteen interviews of ADA have they ever stated this ..... if they want such a capability likely it will come with Tejas Mk2.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Dec 2013 16:15

ADA IIRC hasnt even talked about which BVR missile fit for FOC...onlee media has pointed out its likely to be Derby...
Given Kh-31/Kh-59 have been acquired by IAF for Su-30 MKI and there is no eqvt otherwise, its possible they'll be integrated. Kh-35 is on MiG-29 Upg and IN MiG-29K/Il-38
Another likely missile is the Popeye/Crysyal Maze on Mirage 2000s but only limited numbers sufficient for Mirage 2000 were ordered per DN.
Anyways, lets see what happens.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Dec 2013 21:44

srin wrote:If the MLG doors are used as airbrakes, won't that affect the take-off by increasing drag ?

Why? the MLG doors are open even now when the aircraft takes off. The problem is not at take off.

I was wondering about the landing, as currently both the MLG doors and the air brakes are used. If the current air-brakes are removed, then will MLG doors alone be able to provide sufficient deceleration during the approach?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Dec 2013 21:48

According to the latest DRDO Samachar, the required rate of production of LCA is 20 aircrafts per year. Currently it is 2 aircrafts per year.

DRDO Samachar, Nov 2013.

nash · Post by **nash** » 14 Dec 2013 22:02

my guess of next five year LCA production:

2014-15: 2
2015-16: 4
2016-17: 8
2017-18: 16
2018-19: 16

total: 46

40 to IAF
6 to IN.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Dec 2013 22:05

Karan M wrote:ADA IIRC hasnt even talked about which BVR missile fit for FOC...onlee media has pointed out its likely to be Derby...

PS from ADA actually did in an interview with Force

Given Kh-31/Kh-59 have been acquired by IAF for Su-30 MKI and there is no eqvt otherwise, its possible they'll be integrated. Kh-35 is on MiG-29 Upg and IN MiG-29K/Il-38

I doubt that it is possible to integrate these russian weapons on Tejas , integrating it on MKI is a different thing

Another likely missile is the Popeye/Crysyal Maze on Mirage 2000s but only limited numbers sufficient for Mirage 2000 were ordered per DN.
Anyways, lets see what happens.

Israel weapons like Popeye is a possibility considering we did this in past with M2K.

srin · Post by **srin** » 15 Dec 2013 09:29

indranilroy wrote:
srin wrote:If the MLG doors are used as airbrakes, won't that affect the take-off by increasing drag ?
Why? the MLG doors are open even now when the aircraft takes off. The problem is not at take off.

I was wondering about the landing, as currently both the MLG doors and the air brakes are used. If the current air-brakes are removed, then will MLG doors alone be able to provide sufficient deceleration during the approach?

The MLG doors are open when the Landing gear is down which means during taxi/take-off and landing. Now, if you make the doors extra draggy to become airbrakes, then the take-off performance will be adversely affected. The same doors that will slow down the aircraft during landing will slow it down during takeoff.

What am I missing ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2013 10:02

Oh I understand now. No, they are not going to increase the size of the MLG door. They studied and found that the MLG doors (in their current form) are sufficient to act as airbrakes. I will try to dig up the paper.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Dec 2013 11:40

The LCA production line being built has a capacity of 16 LCA/year which will be expanded to 20 LCA/year of which 14/year is for IAF and 6/year is for IN.

For 2017-22 five year plan 68nos LCAmk2 are planned to be inducted in IAF according to reports.

IAF 40 LCA order can be fulfilled in 3 years @8/yr for first year and later @16/yr for 2 years.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2013 21:59

indranilroy wrote:Oh I understand now. No, they are not going to increase the size of the MLG door. They studied and found that the MLG doors (in their current form) are sufficient to act as airbrakes. I will try to dig up the paper.

Okay, so I found the paper.

3.1 Main Landing Gear (MLG) door as an Air Brake
The Air brakes in Tejas provided at the rear spinal part of the fuselage to decelerate aircraft at higher speeds. Due to this rear location in addition to the deceleration it gives an uncommanded pitch up and directional stability reduction. Various improvement methods like perforated airbrake, updation of aero data set and fine tuning of control law gains were tried. Still the problem is not rectified completely.

The reduction of directional stability with various Air Brake position is shown in Fig. 8 9. A study taken up to utilize the main landing gear follow up door as an airbrake. Due to its location close to the centre of gravity it will not give any pitch up moment about extensive wind tunnel testing has been carried out. The results were encouraging.

The increase in drag coefficient and directional stability with MLG door is shown in Figs. ~~10 and 11~~ 11 and 12 respectively. From the figures it is seen that the MLG door meets the drag requirement for the deceleration similar to Air Brake at 60 degrees deflection. And the directional stability is close to that of the Air Brake at retracted condition.

I think I am right about that picture. The slats are not extended, so this is not a take off or landing configuration. They are trying to see how effective the MLG follow up doors are with the body pylons loaded. Actually it is interesting research. The LDP comes right in front of the left MLG follow up door. Also recently, I learned the the ventral fins on the F-16 sometimes break up due to the strong interaction of vortices from the payloads. Wonder if that will be a problem when the MLG follow up door will be opened at high speed (Most probably not because the vortices from the payloads will be behind the MLG follow up door).

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 16 Dec 2013 03:41

If MLG door are used as air brakes at high speed and at high altitude, wouldn't it risk ice formation in the landing gear? Air brakes expose very little internals, but MLG does expose a lot of mechanical and electrical equipment associated with the landing gear. That can be a problem later on while landing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Dec 2013 03:54

You;d use them as airbrakes at low alt during the landing approach. So risk of ice formation etc would be low (if at all).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Dec 2013 04:26

JTull wrote:If MLG door are used as air brakes at high speed and at high altitude, wouldn't it risk ice formation in the landing gear? Air brakes expose very little internals, but MLG does expose a lot of mechanical and electrical equipment associated with the landing gear. That can be a problem later on while landing.

That is generally the case when you go through repeated cycles for every flight. This is not the case here. Also once you have decided to use the MLG door in this fashion you would take necessary steps to mitigate the effect. There are many floating around. Actually the 737 went through a series of changes on this kind of arrangement. Even the Citation X and the CRJs have adopted something similar.

Actually, MLGs as air brakes is not a new proposition either. Dr. Kota Harinarayana was most impressed by the use of certain parts in multiple ways on the Gnat. And he specifically mentioned the use of MLG doors as airbrakes as an example.

Karan M wrote:You;d use them as airbrakes at low alt during the landing approach. So risk of ice formation etc would be low (if at all).

Most of the time. But not always.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Dec 2013 04:31

Karan M wrote:ADA IIRC hasnt even talked about which BVR missile fit for FOC...onlee media has pointed out its likely to be Derby...
...

Derby Missiles Selected to Arm India’s Tejas Fighters

February 14, 2011 at 07:55
Israel’s Derby missile is the weapon of choice for India’s Tejas fighter. A contract will be signed by March with Rafael Advanced Defence Systems Ltd to supply the air-to-air weapon for the indigenous Indian jets. P.S. Subramanya, director of India’s Aeronautical Development Agency, which is developing the light combat aircraft. According to Subramanya, a key criterion for the full clearance is the integration of a Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) missile. The Rafael Python V missile, closely related to the Derby, was also an option for the Tejas, Subramanya stated. Delivery of the missiles is expected in the second half of 2012, toward the final phase of testing, expected to conclude by December 2012.
...

These were at an ADA stall ...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Dec 2013 08:46

Does anyone have any idea if a full-mission flight simulator like the one for the MiG-29K is being built for the IAF? Or will they just use the existing simulator at ADA's facilities?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Dec 2013 11:06

HAL gears up for Tejas series production | Record 485 flights logged in 2013

...
Close to two generation of designers and manufacturing engineers from HAL and its prime work centre Aircraft Research and Design Center, have worked on the Tejas programme. With the project entering the final operational clearance (FOC) and parallel series production (SP) stages, HAL has its task cut out to deliver the first batch of 40 aircraft in phases. A 28,000 sq feet manufacturing facility has already been commissioned by HAL for the series production.
...
...
HAL chairman R K Tyagi refuses to drawn into any controversies of the past and points out at the record number of flights Tejas achieved in 2013 as a reaffirmation of company’s commitment. “I do not want to go on a rewind mode. This year Tejas variants have logged 484 flights, compared to the average 280-odd flights it logged every year. This is an increase of 75 per cent. This has been achieved by closely monitoring the aircraft readiness, reducing turnaround time and an emphasis on snag-free flights,” Tyagi told Express on Sunday.
In the design phase, HAL generated over 9000 structural drawings, which were validated and converted into the fighter. HAL also built an ‘Iron Bird’ facility for testing the fly-by-wire system in addition to setting up manufacturing facilities which rolled out 14 aircraft till date. The company also designed and developed indigenous LRUs, including jet fuel starter for the engine. “Our focus is to set the base for an aerospace eco system in India from the experience we gained from the Tejas project. Self reliance in defence production is a matter of state security and national pride. We will have a lot to offer towards the mission of indigenization,” Tyagi said.
...

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 16 Dec 2013 11:33

Kartik wrote:Does anyone have any idea if a full-mission flight simulator like the one for the MiG-29K is being built for the IAF? Or will they just use the existing simulator at ADA's facilities?

Air Combat Simulator Upgraded at AF Station, Hindan which will take care of close combat training wrt most combat platforms with the IAF.

besides AFA Dindigul will have 3 full mission simulators soon as per the chief instructor there.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Dec 2013 11:38

So looks like the Derby and Astra will be the main BVR AAM for LCA aand not R-77 due to Isreali help with MMR.

Woud be nice see LCA with Python V plus Astra combo a couple of years from now.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 Dec 2013 11:53

Good to know that Russi involvement with LCA will be minimal. Don't want Russians to have any control over LCA project where they'll keep on raising prices to provide help with missile integration or any other thing. That too with massive delays.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Dec 2013 13:04

pragnya wrote:
Kartik wrote:Does anyone have any idea if a full-mission flight simulator like the one for the MiG-29K is being built for the IAF? Or will they just use the existing simulator at ADA's facilities?
Air Combat Simulator Upgraded at AF Station, Hindan which will take care of close combat training wrt most combat platforms with the IAF.

besides AFA Dindigul will have 3 full mission simulators soon as per the chief instructor there.

Does not include the Tejas Mk1

The uniqueness of ACS is that it facilitates training in 10 different types of fighter aircraft viz., MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29, MiG-27, Su-30, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, Mirage-III, Mirage-V, F-16 and F-6.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 16 Dec 2013 13:57

Apologies if this gem from Kedar has been posted earlier:

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 16 Dec 2013 13:59

Kartik wrote:
The uniqueness of ACS is that it facilitates training in 10 different types of fighter aircraft viz., MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29, MiG-27, Su-30, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, Mirage-III, Mirage-V, F-16 and F-6.

The bolded part is interesting. Should makeup for the lack of an actual a/c.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Dec 2013 15:00

What that suggests is they can create bogeys that simulate Mirage-3/5, F-16 and F-6 so as to include them in scenarios where IAF pilots need to take them on.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Dec 2013 18:47

I thought that IOC was obtained with an R-73 Russkie missile.Derby.The CAG had earlier said that the Derby failed to meet parameters in IN service.Any news of its improved performance? Or has it been acquired bcos of the Israeli radar? LCA production figures highly optimistic.Wait and watch.However with the Rafale deal in trouble the LCA success becomes even more critical with MIG 21 phasing out.More Flankers anyone?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 17 Dec 2013 00:03

Philip wrote:.More Flankers anyone?

Fuel koun dalwaayega ??

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Dec 2013 12:47

Philip wrote:I thought that IOC was obtained with an R-73 Russkie missile.Derby.The CAG had earlier said that the Derby failed to meet parameters in IN service.Any news of its improved performance? Or has it been acquired bcos of the Israeli radar? LCA production figures highly optimistic.Wait and watch.However with the Rafale deal in trouble the LCA success becomes even more critical with MIG 21 phasing out.More Flankers anyone?

Obviously because of the part-Israeli radar! The Russkies will charge us two arms and a leg for integrating the R-77 (that is if they don't refuse outright!).

Which other BVR weapon is available for integration? Maybe the Chinese ones?

koti · Post by **koti** » 17 Dec 2013 13:22

AMRAAM?
METEOR?