LCA News and Discussions

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Mar 2012 00:36

raghuk wrote:Its expected at around 1700. The intake has just been more aerodynamically reshaped and it still exists and has not been closed.

Thanks for confirming that Raghu! Congratulations to you and all those who work on the LCA ! Please pass along the BRFites' well wishes to them all.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 10 Mar 2012 00:42

raghuk wrote:Its expected at around 1700. The intake has just been more aerodynamically reshaped and it still exists and has not been closed.

raghu, Can you share some of the improvements that have gone into LSP7 compared to previous LSPs?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Mar 2012 00:45

SKrishna wrote:
raghuk wrote:Its expected at around 1700. The intake has just been more aerodynamically reshaped and it still exists and has not been closed.

Has it been moved to the sides? I can see a scoop there...

Those scoops on the sides were there since the PVs were first built.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 10 Mar 2012 01:04

shiv wrote:
pandyan wrote:
So, who is providing the components today for Tejas? Why can't they show a nice contract and rope in private companies?

Too many chicken-egg scenarios
Yes. But in fact this business of inviting private participation has been on only for a decade or so now with increasing private involvement in stalls in Aero India. In fact last year, on this thread we discussed a news item where some HAL bigwig admitted that the biggest problem was going to be mass production of small (and larger) parts for the LCA production line rather than the one-off items that was being done for the prototypes. Obviously, if they get suppliers to do that and keep quality high and costs low then the problem is solved.

I think the use of the word "pin" is significant as is the mention of cost. High quality pins/small parts may cost a bomb if an investment in machinery has to be put in up front by any private company. HAL can't help here but GoI can help by giving soft loans and tax breaks to companies that are willing to invest in the machinery/floor space to make small parts. The investment will really pay off in MCA or FGFA, because the same factory can then continue to produce pins/rings for the next A/C.

The other unrelated issue is "transfer of technology". When we buy a Jag or a rafale, it was basically unprofitable to set up factories for every pin/ring. Either HAL had to set up a unit for that or it was imported wholesale. If the company in UK/France shut down or if sanctions were applied that small pin - the proverbial nail in the horse's shoe could ground a plane. So we need massive, ma-assive private involvement of small players to make thousands of little parts.

one major barrier to begin the vendor identifying process is the much awaited firm commitment from IAF, without this happening the process may stall. we can expect subsidies but the big question remains.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 10 Mar 2012 01:13

Good job by ADA,HAL,IAF etc. Hope lsp-6 is up flying soon....Once its mission is done we may get to see an unrestricted performance in Aero India next year.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 10 Mar 2012 02:15

I can tell you from my personal experience 20 years back. While I was working for a major engineering giant (that all of us highly respect here in BRF), we bagged a large order for machining gear boxes (just the outer case) for a nameless tank.
The contract was for a significant sum of money with a huge profit margin. This was supposed to be the area of our expertise and that is why the contract was awarded to us. However, in reality we were not able to meet the stringent military grade tolerance specified in the contract. More than 50% of the final product was rejected. Needless to say, this big giant did not even want the repeat contract. The contracting institution had to start the process all over again to find a new vendor.

That is when I first learnt that military grade specifications and tolerances are an entirely different beast, they are very difficult to achieve consistently and require special jigs and machinery in most cases. The tolerances on the jigs were more severe than the actual component, but it was a one time effort. Even if they shell out the money, the capability may not exist with the industry in some cases. I can very well understand what DRDO/ADA/HAL are going through in finding vendors for LCA components. Good luck to them for the sake of India.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Mar 2012 02:17

IF there was no chase aircraft how was the second pic on Tarmak website shot ??

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 10 Mar 2012 02:22

^^May be the aircraft was sent just for taking the photos and not to do what a typical chase aircraft does, say monitor the safety of the aircraft for example.

I reviewed it again. It is from the perspective of someone looking up. It may just be a photo from the ground level or from the top of a building.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Mar 2012 02:34

suryag wrote:IF there was no chase aircraft how was the second pic on Tarmak website shot ??

shot from the ground with a camera with a good zoom lens jukst when it was taking off .

Arav · Post by **Arav** » 10 Mar 2012 03:02

raghuk wrote:Its my birthday tomorrow and couldn't have asked for a better gift from my employers!

Raghuji, you have a companion in me..

.. My wishes on your bday and thanks for the good news, one to cheer and memorable.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Mar 2012 03:11

Another change that I noticed on the LSP-7..there is a hole provided under the base of the vertical fin just behind the drag chute cap, where the equipment for an anti-spin parachute may be fitted.

LSP-6 didn't have it

LSP-7 does

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 10 Mar 2012 03:24

Sir, KH2014 should be LSP 4.

AFAIK, LSP 6 has yet to be rolled out. LSP 6 will be the aircraft used for spin recovery tests.

----

Congratulations to Team LCA for another significant achievement. Hope we can see LSP 8 soonish.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Mar 2012 04:34

Nick_S wrote:Sir, KH2014 should be LSP 4.

AFAIK, LSP 6 has yet to be rolled out. LSP 6 will be the aircraft used for spin recovery tests.

----

Congratulations to Team LCA for another significant achievement. Hope we can see LSP 8 soonish.

You're right about KH2014 being LSP-4. i stand corrected in that regard. As for the anti-spin parachute, nothing stops ADA from providing an attachment point on LSP-7 for the anti-spin parachute even if LSP-6 is identified as the high alpha test plane.

Added Later: Can anyone find that picture of the anti-spin chute and its attachment bracket that was supposedly worked on by some DRDO lab? That would probably confirm my suspicion.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Mar 2012 05:12

Nice catch Kartik sir. Btw can you also explain that hum on lower spine of the aircraft.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Mar 2012 05:30

suryag wrote:Nice catch Kartik sir. Btw can you also explain that hum on lower spine of the aircraft.

Don't call me sir yaar. What hum on lower spine are you referring to? Could you point it out in a picture?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Mar 2012 06:05

The thing in gray at the intersection of the vertical fin and the spine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Mar 2012 06:23

During the test flight, performance of the aircraft systems including Multi-mode Radar (MMR), Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS), Auto-pilot and Instrument Landing System (ILS) was satisfactory, providing a moment of pride for all the stake holders which include ADA, HAL, IAF, CEMILAC, DG AQA, ADE and NAL among others.

I know MMR and HMDS have large Elbit inputs/parts. I hope the pride of ILS is maintained indigenous. Congrats, but just thinking constructively against this pride edit from tarmak.

Kartik, is the same drag parachute they use for after touch down landing and release or this is a different one? The LSP-6 picture perhaps taken after it was released on ground?

mukul_chou · Post by **mukul_chou** » 10 Mar 2012 08:07

What has happened to APU intake?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2012 08:26

the grey rectangular housing below the wing trailing edge root is likely kept for either CMDS or RWR sensor.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 Mar 2012 09:19

SaiK wrote:
During the test flight, performance of the aircraft systems including Multi-mode Radar (MMR), Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS), Auto-pilot and Instrument Landing System (ILS) was satisfactory, providing a moment of pride for all the stake holders which include ADA, HAL, IAF, CEMILAC, DG AQA, ADE and NAL among others.
I know MMR and HMDS have large Elbit inputs/parts. I hope the pride of ILS is maintained indigenous. Congrats, but just thinking constructively against this pride edit from tarmak.

It was in the press release.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 10 Mar 2012 09:44

Kartik wrote: Added Later: Can anyone find that picture of the anti-spin chute and its attachment bracket that was supposedly worked on by some DRDO lab? That would probably confirm my suspicion.

Screen grab from the High AoA pdf.

The bracket seem to be mounted farther towards the end than the holes on LSP7.
I don't know how up to date that article is, so i guess we will find out when LSP6 flies.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Mar 2012 09:51

Great job. What a journey!!!

Congrats to each and everyone who worked countless hours without any recognition.

All their toils are rewarded now.

My congrats to all the aero-guys who stayed true to their profession and payed the dues to the mother land.

You did our colleges proud!!!

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 10 Mar 2012 09:53

Just now I saw a green LCA, should be flying past the airport. Another grey landed few miuntes back too

Congrats to all who worked on this

Anyway I totally missed out the first flight, but I remember that a Mig 21 did fly over my car around Marathahalli side exactly at 4.30PM yesterday. Also saw two ALH dhruv's doing synchronized flying. Lots of activities on Friday

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Mar 2012 10:35

raghuk wrote:Its expected at around 1700. The intake has just been more aerodynamically reshaped and it still exists and has not been closed.

Happy birthday Raghu!

Can't make out from the pictures ... have they have gone for a NACA duct for the APU intake? I did not expect to see the smoothening in LSP 7 ... so I am pleasantly surprised ... I am hoping that they would change the parachute cover to the more tapering one soon too.

Between, I hope that you give us some wonderful news regarding LCH TD-3 and WSI sometime soon

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2012 10:44

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NACA_ ... inlets.JPG

seems to be so.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Mar 2012 11:48

So after a few flights the LSP7 will be given to ASTE which will rase the squadron no 45 flying daggers with this bird

Some old tarmak articles for general consumption
lsp7 had fuel change mode, frankly never understood what it meant
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/04/i ... -mode.html

Shri R Nambiar becoming the ASTE commandant, he being a tejas test pilot will definitely help the cause of no45 squadron raising
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/12/a ... nambi.html

LSP7 getting built

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2012 16:19

Looks very pretty , Congratulations to ADA and all those who are involved , specially the nameless engineers and scientist who have toiled hard so that the country could see this day against all odds.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 10 Mar 2012 16:44

rgsrini wrote: Even if they shell out the money, the capability may not exist with the industry in some cases. I can very well understand what DRDO/ADA/HAL are going through in finding vendors for LCA components. Good luck to them for the sake of India.

rgsrini Ji,

Ditto my experiance with HAL. Senior AGM told me that Industries often pull out of existing contracts or even refuse re contract due to strenuous technical demands and bureaucratic delays in commercial procedures.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 10 Mar 2012 22:16

Battle-ready Tejas fighter unlikely before 2014.

The battle-ready version of the country's fighter plane, Tejas, may not emerge before late 2013 or 2014 going by its present pace.

On Friday evening, defence scientists in Bangalore flew yet another improved version of the aircraft to test many indigenously-developed instruments. They reported its 18-minute performance as ‘satisfactory'.

Evidently, much work remains before the fighter matches the Indian Air Force's requirement.

Tejas, when fully flight-ready, is tipped to be the world's lightest. Its story has been snagged by delays, including the US sanctions. An official closely associated with Tejas's progress said LSP-8, the next tweaked version, would not be ready until later this year.

LSP-8 would be the version presented for final certification of CEMILAC, the approving body for fighter aircraft, the official told Business Line. The FOC (final operational or flight clearance) and the green flag to produce them could come in late 2013 or beyond.

Development saga
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been making all the early pieces of the light combat aircraft (LCA). The defence PSU has an order for the first 40 planes from the IAF. Before that, Tejas must meet all the standards that make it safe and reliable in a war.

In January 2011, Tejas got the initial operational clearance (IOC) with some concessions on milestones. It had not yet met a few yardsticks for the IOC, which allows those outside the ‘lab' — IAF pilots in this case — to try out the plane.

The Defence Minister, Mr A.K. Antony, has described it as the ‘semi-final' stage in its 25-year, Rs 12,500-crore development saga.

In the coming years, the IAF is expected to need over 200 Tejas fighters to replace the MiGs. The Navy is tipped to seek 40 customised variants and has already funded the early variants. The IAF has placed an order with HAL to deliver two batches of 20 aircraft each. One order for Rs 4,000 crore is for Mark I. The other is for a higher-powered Mark II fitted with GE-F404 engines

HAL has said it can bring out ten LCAs a year — or the full complement of 40 around 2018.

The DRDO's nodal body, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), is developing the LCA for the IAF.

DRDO said Friday's flight, piloted by Group Captain K. K. Venugopal, tested the multi-mode radar, the helmet mounted display system, the auto-pilot and the instrument landing system.

“This test flight is significant for the programme, as LSP-7 build standard is close to the IOC standard. Accordingly LSP-7 aircraft, along with LSP-8, will be offered to the IAF for user evaluation trials,” DRDO said in a release.

A production test schedule was used for the first time in an early version.

“This is also the first time the maiden flight of a prototype was not accompanied by the customary ‘chase' (companion) aircraft.” It indicated the level of confidence in the plane, DRDO claimed.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 11 Mar 2012 01:27

IMHO I don't mind 2014 but I want THE BEST!!

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 11 Mar 2012 01:40

Time for us to start the count down on NP1 now...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 Mar 2012 02:12

Vipul wrote:Battle-ready Tejas fighter unlikely before 2014.

An official closely associated with Tejas's progress said LSP-8, the next tweaked version, would not be ready until later this year. (when will IAF/ASTE get to fly this )

LSP-8 would be the version presented for final certification of CEMILAC, the approving body for fighter aircraft, the official told Business Line. The FOC (final operational or flight clearance) and the green flag to produce them could come in late 2013 or beyond.

So HAL wouldnt produce SP1-40 until FOC is reached ? why should that happen ? cant the production run be made concurrently with the updates from the test program being fed to the production models ?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Mar 2012 02:30

suryag wrote: So HAL wouldnt produce SP1-40 until FOC is reached ? why should that happen ? cant the production run be made concurrently with the updates from the test program being fed to the production models ?

You are right here and the suggestion is very valid!

The 40 Tejas Mk1 (SPs) can be produced concurrently while the PVs and LSPs undergo testing and certification. Such an approach has been undertaken for the F-35, but the risks associated with that include additional costs for making changes to the already produced fighters to bring them to the same standard as the ones being tested, should some changes be required (which are almost sure).

In the interest of getting the Tejas Mk1 inducted into service earlier, such an approach would be prudent and better than HAL waiting till FOC is achieved to start production. But since there is no such information available, it may well be that HAL would have already ordered long lead items like forgings now itself, to ensure that the SP-1 is ready for rolling out by 2014.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Mar 2012 03:39

If Mr. Ajai Shukla is to be believed, this is what is happening ... structural assembly of SP-1 started in Feb'2011.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/02/ ... -this.html

In the comments section

Broadsword said...
AND THE WINNER IS... RAHUL!

THIS IS INDEED THE FORWARD FUSELAGE SECTION OF THE FIRST SERIES PRODUCTION TEJAS, WHICH HAS BEGUN STRUCTURAL ASSEMBLY.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Mar 2012 04:29

thanks Indranil. that means that by Feb 2014 the SP1 should be rolled out if there are no delays.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 11 Mar 2012 04:50

I think the Tejas program has won enough approval that it is now at a stage where it can be a little less conservative(it has followed an ultra conservative path until now). They can start taking some additional risks as the orders are firm from iaf and in and they are clamouring for more. Being ultra conservative from now on may actually start hurting the program more than it might help. Of course i am an arm chair guy and yes it is not my a** on fire it is the pilots so any amount of pontification from me should be taken with a ton of salt nevertheless JMT

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Mar 2012 06:15

pandyan wrote:
What is stopping HAL/DRDO/MOD/GOI to tap these small phoren companies for JV with large/medium indian companies

HAL cannot create a JV between a pvt Indian firm and a privte foreign firm. The "offsets" for MMRCA demand that foreign forms find partners in India and plough in part of the profit as the investment required for those bits and pieces to be manufactured.

pandyan wrote: If HAL is making them on their own, what is stopping them from transferring this tech to private companies

Firms have to be interested in picking up the tech. Indian pvt industry that grew up dodging the 70s to 90s license raj are not necessarily technically competent - only good at showing benami companies to hide profits or else sink due to license raj.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 11 Mar 2012 19:28

Navy light combat aircraft refused certification

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 11 Mar 2012 19:56

Snehashis wrote:Navy light combat aircraft refused certification

The main issues raised by CEMILAC were since starting, the main issues which DRDO/NAL need to address.(As the main differential part then IAF version)...
Alas, do these issues are critical, like we also had such issues before dhruv and LCH initial flight tests but tests after tests we have reasonable reduced the raised weight issues....2cent..

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 11 Mar 2012 20:41

OT but is anyone else having a problem accessing BR via www.bharat-rakshak.com? I have had to search for BR via google then directly go to the forum via the google provided link.