Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 24 Sep 2011 19:05

Kersi D wrote:
abhik wrote:^^^
How can anybody be so sure that our missiles have the 300km cap? Who is checking?
Inshah Allah.

K

** Deleted **

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2011 19:10

^^ in the sense, aim pakistan but build for china, and aim china, and build for future targets.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Sep 2011 19:23

chandrabhan wrote: ** Deleted **

Are you sure it was for the Airforce? AFAIK only the Navy and Army's variants have been tested so far.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Sep 2011 19:51

Mods please delete non public info posted above

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Sep 2011 20:01

K15was already fitted into Arihanth a long while back.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Sep 2011 20:03

Speaking of the Arihant, any news as to when will she be test firing the first missile submerged.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 24 Sep 2011 21:07

7.5

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Sep 2011 21:52

India tests 700 Km range Shourya Missile for the second time

posting in tearing hurry. Apologies if this is already posted.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Sep 2011 21:54

Surya wrote:
Sandeep Unnithan's sources clearly fed him the wrong stuff, as on the VKS issue.
I would keep the VKS thing out and let it be in the army thread as it is more than just being fed wrong information

Not just the VKS thing. In an article on the Arjun he mentioned it was based on Leopard 1 talking to one of the very people who did not exactly come out smelling of roses (refer to Shukla on what that gent did). Its actually the Leopard 2A4 and todays Arjun is a far different proposition.

On Shourya - without even the basics of fact checking he attempted to pass it off as revolutionary & different from the Agni/Prithvi all thanks to Naval vision ( the fact that there would be no Shourya without the Prithvi or Agni & there were and are, umpteen officers from Army, AF involved with such programs) missed him.

He - like some self proclaimed "experts" who wiki everything & then pretend otherwise - needs to do some serious fact checking.

Unfortunately, Sandeep has tended to take what his sources tell him at face value. That leads to some serious errors of judgement. And I do believe the attack on VKS titled "lies of the general" (what a ridiculous way to attack such a senior person) was not required. Journalists oft have to walk a fine line between balance & keeping their sources happy. But that does not mean they can't do their own fact checking.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2011 04:36

Karan, I bolded the most important parts of your post. The flight was all atmospheric(40Km altitude), with longest range showing its structural margins. Would imply thermal control was good.
It also means there is a lot of separation margin in the design for there is air density at that altitude! So much is latent in those simple statements.

PS: Those who saw the ppts early this year would understand all these!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Sep 2011 09:56

^^^ So Shaurya is not a ballistic missile but is somewhere between a ballistic and cruise missile ? Doesnt that make it more dangerous as during the final descent the warheads wont drop like a stone but home in on the target ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 10:17

Has someone tried to verify the nuclear sub article in India Today? No? Try it. The facts may be different from the reported I am told.

Will · Post by **Will** » 25 Sep 2011 11:00

The latest India today?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 11:27

No, the older one which revealed the Indian nuke sub for the first time.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2011 11:34

chackojoseph wrote:Has someone tried to verify the nuclear sub article in India Today? No? Try it. The facts may be different from the reported I am told.

Is that good or bad?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 13:39

It's misleading. other than the general facts that it has a nuclear propulsion, compartments and K-15 etc, the article was not very representative.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Sep 2011 14:07

SaiK wrote:700km per 500 s looks like a hypersonic mission speed of 1.4 kmps. Am I reading this correct?

[mach ~ 4.1]?

Could be its average speed during flight

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 25 Sep 2011 15:39

chackojoseph wrote:It's misleading. other than the general facts that it has a nuclear propulsion, compartments and K-15 etc, the article was not very representative.

BruteG,

why dont you go ahead and post a write-up of what you know !!!!!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 15:54

rakall wrote:BruteG,

why dont you go ahead and post a write-up of what you know !!!!!

I had asked someone if the article is correct. The reply was "may be" then "leaning towards no."

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 25 Sep 2011 16:51

chackojoseph wrote:
rakall wrote:BruteG,

why dont you go ahead and post a write-up of what you know !!!!!
I had asked someone if the article is correct. The reply was "may be" then "leaning towards no."

Isnt it journalistically criminal for you to stop there? Get it and post it..

Or atleast if the article was wrong.. then as Shiv asked - is the reality better or worse? That would do for now..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2011 17:33

chackojoseph wrote:It's misleading. other than the general facts that it has a nuclear propulsion, compartments and K-15 etc, the article was not very representative.

Chacko that article IIRC had virtually no information. There was absolutely nothing to discuss so a long time was spent analyzing that photo and talking about 80 MW or 90 MW or MWe ot MWTh or some stuff that we usually talk about and tear ecah others

What surprises me is that you are mentioning a long forgotten article suddenly to say that the information was not representative of facts. Here you are saying that the article was accurate in saying nuclear propulsion and K-15. There was nothing else in that article. The rest of it was journalistic space filling material. We already know nothing and you are suddenly confirming that we know nothing and you are adding nothing. Why?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 18:16

Yes Shiv and rakall,

I was reacting to this

Karan M wrote:Sandeep Unnithan's sources clearly fed him the wrong stuff, as on the VKS issue.

Isn't it the chap who wrote that article? So when KaranM wrote that comment, I just added to the fact. The VKS, the Nuke sub.... etc.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Sep 2011 18:25

^^ Is this the article you all discussing?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/the- ... 20488.html

and made few replies...

(i) http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 90#p983690

Kanson wrote:
But no complaining - glad to see some competitive juice flowing between the 2 parallel efforts. But the turf war is worrying & am glad Sandeep Unnithan brought it out in the open. The lack of follow-on tests of Shourya for 2 years is not good. Since the Shourya is a spin-off from a sea-based missile, maybe the team doesn't have much say in testing/induction of land-based variants.
Turf war is his imagination. Earlier, few years back, the same question was asked, whether we are going to replace Prithvi with solid fuel missile. Saraswat answered, no. In his reply he said, Prithvi was much matured, after fueling it can be stored for 7 yrs and can be extended, just as 10 yrs quoted for wooden round in his article. Further Prithvi is continuously upgraded to impart more capabilities. Easily detectable moving columns are just for adding salt & masala. Without going into the merits of Arun Prakash's classified report, that is completely outdated and has no relevance now. In the mean time, we have moved a lot.

What i'm trying to say is, what he has written in not a technical report but he sprinkled enough journalistic "flavours". Just to stress, earlier he reported the length of K-15 as 7m in his previous article on ATV, now he mentioned the length as 10m. Is he not subjected to errors?

You ask yourself, if DRDO is interested in testing a land based missile why should not it go ahead in delivering the missile for the land forces(?). If there is any turf war as he reported, it is between DRDO and Army, right? What stopped Navy, being the owner of the project (as per him), to go ahead and replace the Dhanush missile with K-15?
If k-15 is strictly a strategic weapon, the whole argument of Navy having something while not provided for the army kind of discussion is absurd. It all going to come under SFC, as they will be fighting as a single unit. Similarly, Agni-II will be retained even in the presence of Agni-II plus missile, so where is the question of preferential treatment to Prithvi or turf war?

Asked whether the Agni-II would be decommissioned after the introduction of the Agni-II Plus, Saraswat stated that both versions would be used. "We require missiles of various ranges. The older version will not be removed from the services," he said.

Read more: Agni-II Plus to be tested in 2 months - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... z16B00nrDJ
P.S. Thanks Karan M for pitching in.

(ii) http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 21#p883521

(iii) http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 61#p996061

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 18:57

^^^ No, the nuclear submarine detailing. As I mentioned earlier, I replied to the KaranM's specific line.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Sep 2011 19:07

Karan M wrote:So much for the claims that "political reasons to support Shourya" meant it would not be inducted as versus the Agni etc. Sandeep Unnithan's sources clearly fed him the wrong stuff, as on the VKS issue.

This is the line from Karan M and doesn't even remotely indicates about Nuclear sub. And there are many articles on Nuclear Sub in India Today. Chacko, at the least you can quote the article, which you are referring to. Or you can just state the information(mentioned) which you felt wrong...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 19:22

Kanson wrote:This is the line from Karan M and doesn't even remotely indicates about Nuclear sub. And there are many articles on Nuclear Sub in India Today. Chacko, at the least you can quote the article, which you are referring to. Or you can just state the information(mentioned) which you felt wrong...

Hmmm.. I thought there was only 1 article with a drawing on alleged sub interiors by India Today. Please correct me if there are more. IIRC, it was published some days before PM's wife broke that coconut on the hull. I don't have link, please search for that. I am just recovering from a tour, I went for yesterday to an auto maker and a component supplier plant. And am still paying for that in terms of workload from yesterday and for tomorrow.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2011 20:02

Here is one Sandeep Unnithan article from India today. Sandeep used to visit BRF occasionally IIRC
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins- ... 21885.html

India's first ballistic missile submarine the INS Arihant will go on "deterrent patrol" or sail with a full complement of nuclear-tipped missiles when she is commissioned in 2012. "The nuclear triad will be there when it is commissioned," navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma said at a press conference in New Delhi.

This is the first time a service chief has commented on the deployment of a nuclear weapon platform. Launched last year, the Arihant is the first of a series of five indigenously constructed ballistic missile submarines (SSBN). The Indian SSBN is meant to form the third and most survivable leg of a troika of land, air and sea-based platforms enunciated by the Indian nuclear doctrine. The submarines are being constructed at the high security Naval Dockyard Visakhapatnam. "We expect to have it going in two years, end 2011 or 2012," Admiral Verma said. "We are going with the float as far as things go," he said in an attempt to answer speculation that technical glitches with the submarine would delay its commissioning.

Deterrent patrol means a long and lonely vigil where the submarine sails submerged and undetectable for weeks on end with its load of nuclear weapons. It is meant to 'deter' an adversary from launching a first strike on the nation. Only four nations-the US, Russia, France and UK have SSBNs sailing on deterrent patrols. China has two SSBNs and is building three more but its submarines have never sailed on deterrent patrols.

Admiral Verma's predecessor was the first to confirm the existence of the highly classified Advanced Technology vessel (ATV) project two years back. Security analysts however believe that the navy chief's estimates of induction could be optimistic. The Arihant is yet to begin her sea trials or even fire up her nuclear reactor. Missile tests will follow after the submarine completes her sea trials which could take up to a year. Two nuclear-tipped missiles are being developed for the Arihant class. A 700-km submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) called the K-15 or the B-05 has been tested eight times and is in serial production. A 3500 km SLBM, the K-4 has been tested once and will be fielded by around 2017. A second test of the K-4 is expected in the next two months.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins- ... 21885.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Sep 2011 20:34

Guys,

Sorry to have got you off all on this tangent. Anyways Chacko is right that I was referring to Sandeeps article on the Arihant, where he mentioned the existence of the K-15 and described what it was (a scoop for sure and a credit to Sandeep) but then went off on a wild goose chase (IMO) stating that it was an example of superior naval vision and should replace the Agni, Prithvi and did not even acknowledge the role latter two programs played in its development (via technology and experience) and that Army & AF have played a critical role in the other programs too. Furthermore, he then claimed the program was not allowed to be developed as a land weapon or the like by those who supported the prior programs. Which we can now say is totally wrong - the Shourya was tested a second time in secret, put in production and now we have a missile from the production batch tested.

Basically, a couple of guys made a hue and cry about this article and used it for their usual claims on the forum which was kind of amusing and which is why I remembered it - because if there is one thing we all know by now its how tightly these DRDO programs are interlinked in terms of personnel, infrastructure and design & development. The Brahmos's much touted Ground based segment for example is reportedly a modified version of the system developed for the Akash, and also uses fire control elements first developed for the Prithvi! The next generation systems developed for the BMD and what not will also find their way onto other programs. Who would have thought that the Prithvi itself would be quickly adapted for an interim BMD role & that too for a target purpose (making use of the extensive production infrastructure already set up to churn these missiles out).

We Indians are frugal engineers and do not waste anything.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Sep 2011 20:39

Arihant K-lass with 3.5K walas (a3 based slbms) could be further enhanced to shower petals with a higher watt n-thrust.

Also, I am thinking out of my mind here to be able to deploy an ABM with arhiant++ class platform where, we could house SL-ABM based as distributed dynamic missile shield. Once we have that platform, the Arihant++ platform use would bolster our navy with escape velocity to the desired Nofu deterrent spot, as envisaged by our doctrine.

Has any one done SL-ABMs?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 25 Sep 2011 21:35

shiv wrote: Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins- ... 21885.html

[/quote]

Nyet! Not this. IIRC, there was a jpeg of the article posted in BR. It was front cover too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2011 04:49

CJ, Why don't you go look for what is on your mind and post here. Thanks, ramana

Meantime lets all stick to topic.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Sep 2011 05:37

This was the India Today jpeg.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/gallery/Ex ... /1711.html

The one discussed here at length was the Shiv Aroor/Livefist jpeg
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/in ... n-toi.html

The picture on top is the INS Arihant graphic published in the January 28, 2008 edition of India Today. The second picture is the INS Arihant graphic published in the Times of India today. Total rip or what!

Top Image Copyright India Today
Second Image Copyright TOI

Also from Livefist
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/da ... ihant.html

This is an official illustration of India's Arihant SSBN, made available to Frontline magazine by the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). The shape looks to be pretty much what we saw in Visakhapatnam, barring the hump contours immediately behind the conning tower.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 26 Sep 2011 08:08

^^^ here is the link to original frontline article with lots of official details. Note that the DAE picture shows 8 missile tubes for 3500km kxx or 24 k-15's. Note the dimensions in the article, 111 metres long, 11 m broad and about 15 m tall. K15 are 10.4 metres tall and weigh 6.3 tonnes each. They have a range of 700 km. Their warheads weigh about a 1,000 kg.

http://www.flonnet.com/fl2617/stories/2 ... 702500.htm

The sandeep unnithan article in question was much earlier in 2008. It talked about 4 missile tubes (12 k15's), megaton weapons etc and was completely wrong in boat dimensions and k15 dimensions. Here is the article in question

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/The+ ... /3659.html

here is his incorrect picture for comparison with DAE.

http://specials.indiatoday.com/specials ... ce/pop.htm

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 26 Sep 2011 09:06

Nuclear-capable Prithvi-II missile test fired
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/nu ... 33509.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Sep 2011 09:12

Shiv,

Bingo! that's the article.

Ramana,

As I was replying to KaranM's post, the Indian Today articles written by particular author is very very questionable. I cannot mention what is correct. The day it is possible, I will make an article out of it. I just wanted to warn that the articles are not factual. Sort of a caution. If you already know, apologies.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Sep 2011 09:36

Indian Army test-fires Prithvi-II ballistic missile

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 26 Sep 2011 12:43

For what it's worth, I had asked a chaiwalah whose chaiwalah informed him that all is well with regard to the Arihant with no concerns whatsoever, smooth sailing to quote ad verbatim from that chaiwallah. On prodding for more info my chaiwallah was informed that "Its classified". This Abdul is happy with this little nugget of info to carry on with routine Jihad activities.

EDIT: sorry I dint realize this was missiles thread, just noticed now, thought I was in naval discussion thread what with all the Arihant discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Sep 2011 13:21

K-15,revelaed to us By Sandeep some time ago,appears to have been a naval-use only missile of 700+ km range.The stated "official" range appears to be very conservative and deliberately given so as,it is an impractical range for any SSBN aboard an Indian N-sub ,specifically meant to carry the most vital and survivable part of our strategic deterrent.One would not like to speculate upon the actual range of K-15,save that the range of the second missile,of 3,500km gives perhaps a peek into its actual capability.

Now the reason why a land attack was developed was the sudden testing by Pak of its new tactcial missiles,courtesy the PRC,which are meant to counter the cold alleged "Cold Start" doctrine of the IA.Earlier reports and posts about the Shourya have well described the gap that this missile fills with respect to our tactcial and strategic arsenal,between the Prithvi/Brahmos series and the Agni series.The "junior" Agni also developed gives us a second missile to "do the business" if and when required.In similar fashion has Brahmos been extended for use to the IA and the IAF too,when it was originally developed to be prmarily an anti-ship missile.Once the LR indigenous cruise missile is also added to the list,we will have accomplished a quite revolutionary approach to both tactical and strategic needs.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 27 Sep 2011 07:06

News on Hypersonic missile Shourya http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 486470.ece

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Sep 2011 07:37

Philip wrote:K-15,revelaed to us By Sandeep some time ago,appears to have been a naval-use only missile of 700+ km range.The stated "official" range appears to be very conservative and deliberately given so as,it is an impractical range for any SSBN aboard an Indian N-sub ,specifically meant to carry the most vital and survivable part of our strategic deterrent.One would not like to speculate upon the actual range of K-15,save that the range of the second missile,of 3,500km gives perhaps a peek into its actual capability.

Isn't the second missile the K-4? Its different from the K-15. Possibly a navalized development of the Agni-III. There is no reason to speculate that the range of the K-15/Shourya is any more than the official 700km number.