Indian Military Helicopters

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Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Vivek K »

NRao wrote:Which is a better helo, I do not know.

What I do know is that the Indian services will make the 226 work - one way or another.

Also, I think India did NOT have any options. Putin needed a bone and the 226 was that bone. THIS - to me at least - is the key.

The real investment of "JV" with Russia is in the energy segment (if it comes to that).

For all I know this could be the last of major def purchases from Russia (outside of more MKIs, which are made in India)
We're quite generous with throwing a bone to others and then get blamed like - Indians took us for a ride by bargaining so we need to up the quoted price by $2 billion.

Why does the "bone" need to be a weapon system that may not have after sales service from the OEM? If Putin needed money, why not invest in manufacturing or other job creation ideas in Russia?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by NRao »

There are dynamics within each nation and then within each segment of the economy. Su is perhaps the best example I can think of. And, when the IAF had insisted on Israeli and French components (IAF had found similar Russian components to be inadequate), for better or worse, everyone laughed (recall it took the Russians years to integrate all that and produce the "MKI"). The point being that India funded a LOT of the techs. So too with the MiG-29s and the MiG-29K.

My feel is that the Rafale deal also falls in this category - of India funding a particular vendor in a given nation.

Why Putin and why 226? I can only say (if all that is true) is that that is what Putin had on the table (along with perhaps a few other things) for India to select and get something else in return. The stuff about IA trialing it twice and all that is marginal. This was a political decision, military was secondary (IMHO).

I am betting that India will slowly start moving away from Russian def products.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/05/15 ... 43129.html

India banks on trusted Russia for defence equipment - Russian military expert
May 15, 2015 RIA Novosti

The Indian decision to buy 197 ‘Kamov’ helicopters from Russia is a good one, because the machine is superior. It also indicates that Indians perceive the Russians as reliable, long-term partners, expert Viktor Baranets says
The decision to purchase 197 ‘Kamov’ helicopters shows that the Indians perceive the Russians as reliable, long - term partners, and that they have learnt from the episode with the ‘Mistral’, believes military analyst Viktor Baranets.

India to buy Russian helicopters in major deal

"This is a unique machine. The Indians were very exacting during the tendering process, checking its tactical and technical characteristics.
This is a modular, multi-functional aircraft: it can be used in fire-fighting and emergency situations, by commandos and by medical staff. It can be easily modified for necessary tasks. The Indians placed a high value on this,” said Baranets. “Also, the helicopter’s other characteristics; speed, height at which it can fly, flight controls, reliability and engine capacity; were superior to the others, including the helicopters from the French-German concern. The Indians have made the right choice", Baranets, said in an interview on Radio Sputnik.

According to Baranets, military-technical cooperation between the two countries is only going to become closer in the future.

"We will continue to strengthen and enhance our relations with India’s military-industrial complex which, incidentally, is at the forefront in a number of fields, particularly in electronics.
Whatever people are saying, in the region, India is in a very strong position,” he said. “No wonder that we turned to them to make the internal parts for our newest T-50 fighter, and the Indians have made a world class product", Baranets observed.

Baranets is certain that India’s decision was influenced by its history with the ‘Mistrals’.

“It has affected them twice. Initially, India wanted to buy a large batch of French fighters. And when the French and Indians were almost shaking hands on the deal, the Indians learned that France has taken such a provocative, I would even say vile position on the "Mistral”, that India’s leaders openly said that we do not need such a partner,” he said. “When the tender started for a helicopter, then, of course, this factor was also taken into account by the Indians.”

“I must say that India looks into the very long term, and it is banking on Russia as a long-term partner: India has ordered our anti-aircraft missile systems and they are negotiating the purchase of Sukhoi fighter planes. Our newest T-50 fighter is, in fact, a Russian-Indian joint production, like the supersonic anti-ship cruise missile BrahMos is also a joint production. India sees Russia as an honest partner, we will never let them down," concluded the military analyst.
PS:Leave aside the style of the report,there are some interesting points. I am skeptical about the "Mistral" reason for the Rafale order being limited,it may have been a tangential issue,noted, but not the key one.The price of the Rafale the true reason for a buy of only 36. There are a few interesting facts/statements revealed,which need to be ckd out.

That we have ordered "anti-aircraft missile systems".Are these ABM systems or what? The only official news about new Indian SAMs are the ones we are co-developing with Israel,B-8,etc. Other reports say that the Russians are offering us an integrated ABM system ,radars,SAMs,etc. ,to cover the entire country.Perhaps these may be a few ABM systems to cover a few key centres until our own ABM system using the Prithvi AD system is fully developed.

The second one reg. the "negotiations for purchase of Sukhoi fighter planes".More MKIs (most likely) or perhaps FGFAs?
Last edited by Philip on 26 May 2015 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
brar_w
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by brar_w »

Defence ministry okays deals worth over $3bn to buy 15 Chinook, 22 Apache copters
The defence ministry has cleared two crucial deals worth more than $3.1 billion to equip the Indian Air Force with US-built attack and heavy-lift helicopters.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has sent the proposals to buy 22 AH-64D Apache Longbow attack and 15 CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift copters — both platforms manufactured by US defence giant Boeing — to the finance ministry for clearance, a government official said on Monday.

The Apache proposal went to the finance ministry on April 23, while the one to buy Chinooks was sent last week. The proposals will later go to the cabinet committee on security, headed by PM Narendra Modi, for final clearance. The latest price extension granted by Boeing for the choppers is valid till June 30.

The deals are, however, not linked to US defence secretary Ashton Carter’s upcoming visit to India, beginning June 2.

The proposals have clauses to place follow-on orders for 11 more Apaches and four extra Chinooks. Both platforms have seen combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. Boeing had beaten off competition from Russia, which had offered its Mi-28N Night Hunter and Mi-26 heavy-lift copters to the IAF.

Armed with fire-and-forget Hellfire missiles, the Apache attack choppers can track up to 128 targets in a minute and prioritise threats.

These missiles equip the helicopter gunships with heavy anti-armour capabilities. The army is moving a case to buy 39 Apache helicopters. The Chinook’s main roles include transporting troops, artillery and battlefield resupply.

Carter will be arriving in India four months after New Delhi and Washington renewed the 2005 India-US Defence Framework Agreement to deepen cooperation in several security-related areas. The agreement led to some major weapon sales to India, deepened military-to-military engagements, bolstered technical cooperation and strengthened the overall strategic partnership. India and the US will also be working on projects relating to co-development and co-production of military hardware and systems under the defence trade and technology initiative (DTTI).

India and US have identified four key “pathfinder projects” for joint development and production under the DTTI. These include next generation Raven mini-UAVs, roll-on and roll-off kits for C-130J Super Hercules planes and mobile electric hybrid power sources.

The US is currently the biggest supplier of weapons to the Indian military, having won deals worth over $10 billion during the last six years.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

The quick decision making by the new DM/regime needs to be applauded. More has been done in the last 1 yr. than in the entire decade of the UPA/Cong.AKA,"The Saint",must be gnashing his teeth,frothing in the mouth ,wringing his hands in envy and loathing of the BJP and DM,at the manner in which the new dispensation is sweeping the cobwebbed interiors of the MOD and taking swift decisions.

The decision has most probably been accelerated by the warning about the price/offer deadline.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by d_berwal »

@ Philip

Most likely the AA system being talked is:

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/tor-m2km/
or maybe
http://www.janes.com/article/43460/aad- ... production

or both
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srin »

d_berwal wrote:@ Philip

Most likely the AA system being talked is:

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/tor-m2km/
or maybe
http://www.janes.com/article/43460/aad- ... production

or both
Probably the latter. Sourav Jha had mentioned Sosna-R in his blog last year. Surprised that it's been under wraps.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by member_22539 »

^Can this thing be fired on the move?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

A report elsewhere on the upgrades for the naval ASW KA-28s,also mentions that the IN is to operate the KA-26 from its warships.In whuich case,a naval version may have to be built,able to at least drop Torps,etc,plus carrying some sensors,sonobuoys,etc.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by d_berwal »

Arun Menon wrote:^Can this thing be fired on the move?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-At-454Ooqo
not in English

Sosna-R can be fired on move i guess
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by wig »

the three remaining Mi-26 are headed for an upgrade in Russia
The IAF’s Mi-26 heavy-lift helicopters are in for a complete overhaul and life extension. Two of the three helicopters remaining in the IAF’s inventory will be making their way to Russia to get a new lease of life.
“The modalities have been worked out and the helicopters will be sent to Russia in three or four months,” a senior Air Force officer said. “Besides scheduled overhaul and upgradation of some equipment, the helicopters will undergo a life-extension programme that would enable them to remain in service for some more years,” he added.
The overhaul programme is expected to take about eight to ten months after the machines reach Russia. With the Mi-26 fleet back on its feet and the proposed 15 US-made Chinook heavy lift helicopters expected to arrive in the near future, the IAF vertical heavy lift capability would receive a significant boost.
The Mi-26 is the largest helicopter in service in the world, with a payload capacity of 20 tonnes. The IAF had raised No. 126 Helicopter Flight at Chandigarh in May 1986, with the purchase of two Mi-26s at a cost of Rs 36 crore. Two more were procured in 1989 at a cost of Rs 45 crore. The Mi-26 have performed commendable work during disaster management operations during natural calamities, airlifting men and heavy machines to remote, inaccessible areas, besides undertaking strategic missions for the armed forces.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 90877.html
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

Good news but jtoo few of these birds.Considering the low cost of acquisition of these giant helos,more should be acquired especially in the wake of the Chinese threat in the NEast. There should be 2 MI-26 units,one at Cgarh and another at Kalaikunda,etc.to support heavy-lift ops ,transporting of roadbuilding machinery,etc.,as our border road infrastructure is poor and way behind time. The 15 Chinooks are also too few in number. Depending upon the heavy-lift helo budget,a mix of more Chinooks and Mi-26s should be acquired. With the acquisition of the LW arty,these and the 105mm guns also being put into service in this theatre,will have to be transported by helo to remote areas .The IAF/IA's heavy and med lift helo numbers must be augmented. There was some mention earlier about MI-17V if it is a cost-effective one.manufacture in India.Considering the large orders of the same,and future needs,we should pursue this option
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

Upgraded MI-26Ts ,the world's largest helo,back in production.

http://rt.com/news/261209-mi-26t2-serial-production/
Russia launches production of upgraded Mi-26, world’s largest helicopter
May 22, 2015

The world’s most powerful heavy transport helicopter, the Mi-26T2, is now officially on the production line, Russian Helicopters Corp announced.


“We announce the start-up of production of the modernized heavy helicopter Mi-26T2 serial production. Helicopters of Mi-26 family have unequalled characteristics, and their modernization considerably expands the potential of this aircraft,” said Russian Helicopters CEO Andrey Shibitov.

Creating heavy duty helicopters is a particularly challenging task for aircraft designers, but Russia has “colossal and unique experience” in this field, Shibitov said.

There is no doubt the Mi-26T2 is going to be in demand in Russia and abroad, he added.

The Soviet-Russian heavy transport helicopter Mi-26 (NATO designation: Halo) remains world's largest and most powerful helicopter to ever go into serial production. The aircraft has both civilian and military modifications. Starting from 1980, there were 316 machines produced.

Mi-26T2 has a maximum takeoff mass of 56 tons and 800 kilometer one-filling fuel capacity; its top speed is 295 km/h, while its fuel-efficient version has a top speed of 255 km/h.

The Mi-26T2’s payload capability is 20 tons, whereas its nearest rival, the American Sikorsky CH-53E, has an external load capability of 16 tons. It has been rumored that further Mi-26T2 modernization might increase helicopter’s payload capability to 25 tons.

The helicopter passed all basic tests in 2010-11. The Mi-26T2 was first presented to the public at the MAKS-2011 air show.

Mi-26T2 helicopters are assembled at the Rosvertol factory in the southern Russian city of Rostov-on-Don.

The Mi-26T2 has improved avionics and modern navigation controls with five displays. This has allowed the designers to reduce the crew from five to three pilots, though just two are enough to operate the machine itself.

Unlike its predecessor, the Mi-26T2 is 24-hours-a-day operable and has special night flight equipment.

In early 2015, two Mi-26T2 helicopters were assembled for export and after tests will be delivered to Algeria.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2015/05/why- ... odlum.html

Why MoD Picked the Kamov Ka-226T 'Hoodlum' over the Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec
Ka-226T Photo Courtesy: Russian Helicopters

The Defense Acquisition Committee (DAC) on May 13, 2015 accepted Russia’s offer to build 200 Ka-226T light-utility helicopters under the Make in India initiative. The cost and other moralities are being worked out.

An official source told Janes that around 50 Ka-226Ts may be imported off the shelf to address immediate IAF and Army Aviation Corp (AAC) requirements.

HAL would likely license produce the aircraft in India with the Gurgaon based SUN Group, which has a tie-up with Russian Helicopters, manufacturing main Ka-226T parts in India, including fuselage, column and main rotor.

HAL hopes to achieve a annual production rate of 30 to 40 Ka-226T helicopters, steadily increasing indigenous content, achieving 30 percent within the next 3 to 4 years.

India and Russia agreed in principle to assemble Kamov-226T helicopters in India during Russian President Vladamir Pution's visit to India on December 11, 2014.

At a joint media interaction with Putin, Modi said, "I am pleased that Russia has offered to fully manufacture in India one of its most advanced helicopters. It includes the possibility of exports from India. It can be used for both military and civilian use. We will follow up on this quickly."

Follow-up quickly is just what the government has done, in a refreshing and reassuring change from the ways of the past.


Ka-226T vs AS550 C3
IAF and AAC personnel evaluated and approved the Kamove Ka-226T 'Hoodlum' and Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec as part of the procurement process for 197 light helicopters to replace aging Chetak and Cheetah helicopters in service.


So why did the MoD opt for the Ka-226T?

The biggest reason would have to be the Russian offer, made by President Putin himself. There is no parallel offer from Eurocopter.

Here are some other reasons that may have prompted the MoD decision in favor of Ka-226T

•Being twin engine (Tubromeca Arrius 2G1), the Ka-226T is safer than the single engine (Turbomeca Arriel-2) AS550 C3.
•Ka-226T's Turbomecca Arrius 2G1 engines are manufactured by France's Safran. HAL and Safran have an existing technical tie-up; they jointly developed the Shakti engine for HAL's Dhruv Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). The Shakti is a derivative of Safran's Turbomecca TM333-2B engine.
•The Arrius 2G1, which is customized for the Ka-226, can reportedly use multiple grades of fuel without performance penalty.
•The Ka-226T engines can reportedly be restarted in 35 seconds; the AS550 C3 engine needs 45 seconds.
•Ka-226T rotor blades can be folded back towards the tail boom, facilitating compact storage and easy transportation.
•Ka-226T autopilot features four axis stabilization facilitating hovering, which is not case with AS550 C3.
•The Ka-226T is bigger and heavier featuring more cargo space and 40 percent heavier payload (1160 kg vs 760 kg)
•A helicopter with contra-rotating rotors is more stable in gusty winds such as those encountered in mountainous regions.
•The use of contra-rotating rotors reduces rotor diameter, which facilitates higher max speeds
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by VinodTK »

Dusk and Dawn of the Indian Attack Helicopters
An attack helicopter (AH) is a rotary wing platform with the primary role of engaging targets on the ground such as armored infantry or moving armored vehicles. There heavy armament can include weapons such as auto canons, heavy machine guns, unguided rockets, and anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM's) like Hellfire and air to air missiles. Apart from the US and Russia, no other country is known for its large inventory of attack helicopters.


Indian military is having around 390 helicopters with it but only 30 out of them are attack helicopters and rest are the utility and transport helicopters. The reason behind this can be understood by the fact that the Indian Air Force (IAF) maintains a fleet of around 250 ground attack aircrafts which more or less serves the same basic purpose of giving close air support to the ground troops. Traditionally India is not known for the love of attack helicopters. Even back in those days, India was using Mil MI-4 and Bell 47G-2 which were utility helicopters for troop movement and rescue operations.


The Need

As of now, Indian Air Force deploys around 20 Mil Mi-35, 7 HAL Rudra and 3 HAL Light combat Helicopters (prototypes). It was the Kargil war of 1999 which fueled the need for helicopters that can operate at such high-altitude conditions with ease. Restricted maneuverability of Mil Mi-35 with high payloads led India to the develop the HAL Light Combat Helicopter and HAL Rudra for multi-role high-altitude combat operations and this can be used by the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army's Aviation Corps.
On 26 May 2009, the Indian Ministry of Defense invited bids for 22 combat helicopters and 15 heavy-lift helicopters in a deal worth US$2 billion. In 2011, the American AH 64-D Apache Block3 had emerged as the winner ahead of the Russian Mi-28N defense deal for 22 Attack Helicopter and CH47-F Chinook won it for the heavy lift category. IAF is planning to deploy indigenously developed HAL Light Combat Helicopter for its combat operations along with the AH64-D Apache, however the HAL-LCA is in the nascent stage of development and the AH64-D's are yet to be delivered.

The Boeing AH-64 Apache is considered as the best attack helicopter which creates havoc in the battlefield. The Boeing AH-64 Apache is a four-blade, twin turbo shaft attack helicopter with a powerful anti-armour weapon system. The Apache is equipped with state of the art electronic technology and fire control systems. The Apache can be loaded with 16 AGM-114 Hellfire Missiles, 76 70mm folding-fin aerial rockets or a combination of both - in addition to 1,200 30mm rounds for its M230 automatic cannon. There can be the use of fixed and rotary wing aircraft in operations against insurgents and this weapon system can be a force multiplier with the IAF in these special missions. Some experts are however opposing the requirement for the attack helicopters quoting that India has thousands of miles of mountainous borders to defend and attack helicopters are bound to be under-utilized in the mountains with their full payload. Another concern is that the heavy firing of the daytime at low levels can bring down any attack helicopter even with the best armour plantings. With their height ceilings and limited weapon systems, attack helicopters can perform their best in the plains but it is the mountains where it has to face the severest test as a credible force multiplier. Lessons from Vietnam remind that more than 5000 helicopters were lost against a not so powerful enemy. However, technology and weaponry has moved far ahead since then.

The indigenous development

Whatever the debate is, Indian military knows the best. After the Kargil war, India is engaged in developing a rotary weapons platform and has successfully produced the HAL Rudra, which is an armed version of HAL Dhruv. Rudra is equipped with Forward Looking Infra Red and Thermal Imaging Sights Interface, a 20 mm turret gun, 70 mm rocket pods, ATGM's and Air-to-Air Missiles. Total 27 are there, 20 with army aviation corps and 7 with IAF.

In 2006, HAL announced its plan to design and build LCH. The Indian Air Force is to acquire 65 LCHs and Indian Army is to acquire 114 LCHs. It surpasses the Boeing AH 64-D Apache in terms of range(700kms) and service ceiling(6500mts), however when it comes to the terms of weapon system, it is more like the Eurocopter Tiger and AW 129 Mangusta. Given its service ceilings and range it is well suited for the mountainous terrains with the prospects of further developments. India will go for the full scale production of the HAL LCH's only after 2016 and the prototypes are being tested now. These improvements in the Indian defense manufacturing sector not only fits the "Make in India" program but also takes us a step closer towards the self-sufficiency in defense procurements.
Last edited by ramana on 23 Jun 2015 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlights. ramana
Kakkaji
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Kakkaji »

So what is the news about ordering the Apaches and Chinooks? The price deadline is less than 10 days from now.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

the pathetic number of Rudra's in IAF ordered shows just how much love is there.
I am sure some tree will be found to hang the LCH on in favour of more apaches.

Parrikarji has now said he will not interact with journalists for the next 6 months. hope behind the scenes he wields the big stick and cuts the flag on nonsensical flights of fancy prestige items like chinook and apache.

given a 150 basic dal roti Rudras anytime over 20 apaches kitted with gold plates and price to match under global sustainment program.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by suryag »

member_22539
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by member_22539 »

Singha wrote:the pathetic number of Rudra's in IAF ordered shows just how much love is there.
HAL was awarded with a combined order of 76 Rudras for the Indian army, the primary customer, and the Indian air force
Says wikipedia
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by sankum »

90 Dhruv mk1/2 were produced with 40 IA+ 22 IAF+8 IN+4 CG+16 civilian/other=90

Then 159 order for mk3/4 for IA 45 MK3+60 MK4 =105 and for IAF 38 MK3+ 16 MK4=54.

Presently for IA 40 mk1/2+ 45mk3 from second order= 85 are expected to be delivered and according to wiki 20 mk4 are delivered.

In December 2012 DAC cleared 45 nos (expected mk3) for IA which AS article does not talk about but it can be expected from this lot deliveries have begun.

In December 2013 DAC cleared 40Nos for IA + 1nos for IN=41 and in June 2014 DAC cleared 32nos in equal 16nos each for IN and CG. This combined lot of 73 nos is in process according to AS article.

Hal can be expected to have crossed 200nos deliveries by now and strangely no celebration for the 200th Dhruv.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ramana »

x-post....
pragnya wrote:
Singha wrote:what is the IOC and FOC status of the LCH ? I have not see it fly in blr for last few months.
IOC planned for sept 15 (3 months ahead of the plan).

http://www.oneindia.com/india/rotorplus ... 59566.html

or by the end of the year - http://www.thehindu.com/business/Indust ... epage=true
is the Rudra past the FOC and in production against orders ?
IOC done in feb 2013. 2 were delivered at the IOC. 20 were to be delivered by end 2013. there may not be a 'formal' FOC as it is based on proven, certified Dhruv. the FOC may be informal as part of induction i guess, reading between the lines -
“We are going to build 54 Rudra helicopters for the army and air force. We will go straight from development into full-scale production,” says P Soundara Rajan, the head of HAL’s Helicopter Complex, which is increasingly driving innovation in that company
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 275_1.html

not sure how many are delivered though.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Abhay_S »

Gurus,

how will the Role of LCH and Rudra differ/complement when both are inducted? Wiki says that Rudra was seen a way to develop and deliver a armed helicopter quickly to the IA. will Rudra production stop after LCH arrives?

some Gyan as to how these platforms can be used in our context will be much appreciated.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Abhay_S wrote:Gurus,

how will the Role of LCH and Rudra differ/complement when both are inducted? Wiki says that Rudra was seen a way to develop and deliver a armed helicopter quickly to the IA. will Rudra production stop after LCH arrives?

some Gyan as to how these platforms can be used in our context will be much appreciated.
Highly unlikely that Rudra will stop when LCH production starts. The Rudra can seat troops and carry casualties and will be useful both for SAR (Search and Rescue) as well as assault where troops can be inserted into a battle zone even as the helicopter can help suppress enemy fire.

The LCH is pure teeth, no passenger carriage.You may have read the story of how 3 Apaches rescued a pilot in Afghanistan downed in a hostile zone - but a couple of soldiers had to strap themselves on to the outside of the Apache because the latter cannot actually carry passengers. I admire the jugaad and Rambo-giri but the whole thing sounds so silly to me. Casualties cannot necessarily be carried back strapped to the outside of a helo. The Rudra can perform that role.

Watch the search and rescue demo mission in the video below. The Mi 35s are for fire suppression while Mi 17 does the passenger lifting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srC5uWJbrUI
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cosmo_R »

shiv wrote:.....

The LCH is pure teeth, no passenger carriage.You may have read the story of how 3 Apaches rescued a pilot in Afghanistan downed in a hostile zone - but a couple of soldiers had to strap themselves on to the outside of the Apache because the latter cannot actually carry passengers. I admire the jugaad and Rambo-giri but the whole thing sounds so silly to me. Casualties cannot necessarily be carried back strapped to the outside of a helo. The Rudra can perform that role.

Watch the search and rescue demo mission in the video below. The Mi 35s are for fire suppression while Mi 17 does the passenger lifting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ATcN-Wgz1U

Examples.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by kmkraoind »

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD

#HAL completes Hot Weather Flight Trials of Light Combat Helicopter at #Jodhpur, a milestone.
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Pratyush »

The cold weather trails remain. :P

Nothing stops the product from being inducted in the armed forces now. Even Helina is coming along nicely.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

you forgot monsoon trials next year...this yr monsoon is already here. this is like using printf() statements for debug when gdb (a environmental test hangar like in wright patterson AFB) is there.
deejay
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by deejay »

Pratyush wrote:The cold weather trails remain. :P

Nothing stops the product from being inducted in the armed forces now. Even Helina is coming along nicely.
I think the cold weather trials are over for LCH _ Successfully! :D

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... s-altitude

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 431224.cms

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 431484.cms

Edited: to correct links
Last edited by deejay on 26 Jun 2015 18:46, edited 1 time in total.
Viv S
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Viv S »

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD

#HAL completes Hot Weather Flight Trials of Light Combat Helicopter at #Jodhpur, a milestone.

_________________________________________________________________


So the MoD is aware of the progress made by the LCH but has still green-lighted the Apache acquisition (despite the absence of operational urgency on that front).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by member_22539 »

^Almost no deal with the americans are "purely" military. There is always a quid pro quo. In the case of UPA (God knows what evil nonsense) and in the case of NDA, some sort of mutual back scratching for sure (perhaps the MTCR seat?).
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Viv S »

Arun Menon wrote:^Almost no deal with the americans are "purely" military. There is always a quid pro quo. In the case of UPA (God knows what evil nonsense) and in the case of NDA, some sort of mutual back scratching for sure (perhaps the MTCR seat?).
I've heard the same thing said about deals with France and Russia as well. But thing is, there is absolutely no dearth of deals that we can sign that would be both garner brownie points while still being a good investment. From GE/Westinghouse nuclear reactors to defence products that include the V-22, F-35, JSTARS, MQ-4C, S-60, etc and/or extra C-130Js, C-17s, P-8Is & Chinooks.

Why must we order the one thing that is not a pressing requirement and for which a domestic alternative exists? I can't see anything that would redeem the MoD's stand in this matter (unless they're just on the lookout for an ideal excuse to can it, without the IAF raising a public ruckus) .
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by member_22539 »

^I kind of get the feeling that there is eagerness on the part of USA to sell these things exactly because they are not pressing matters. It makes no real shift in the balance of power and it gets loads of money in their pocket. Win win for them.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by member_28108 »

http://www.oneindia.com/india/light-com ... 88850.html

Bengaluru, June 26: Bengaluru, June 26: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) on Friday said that its home-grown Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) completed hot weather trials. The one-week long trials were held at Jodhpur measuring a series of parameters. HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju told OneIndia that the trials were crucial as the programme is inching towards Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) phase. Interestingly, during the tests, expert pilots from the Indian Air Force and the Indian Army were present. Representatives of certification teams were also present. "The test flights were carried out in the temperature range of 39 to 42 degree Celsius," says Raju. HAL says the third technology demonstrator (TD-3) of LCH, 3 was ferried from Bengaluru to Jodhpur for the trials. Following are some of the key features tested during the trials: * Temperature survey of engine bay * Temperature survey of hydraulic system * Assessment of performance of helicopter * Verifying the handling qualities and loads at different AUWs (all up weights) * Checking low-speed handling capabilities * Capturing the height-velocity diagram establishment As reported by OneIndia earlier, the LCH had completed cold weather flight testing at Leh in February this year. The chopper was HAL's star attraction during Aero India 2015. HAL claims that the chopper would receive its IOC by end of this year and subsequently enter series production. HAL has also set aside Rs 126 crore for the fourth sibling of LCH (TD-4) to propel the testing phase. Some of the key LCH features * A twin- engine with in the 5.8-ton class * Powered by two Shakti engine * Can carry out dedicated combat roles * Best suited for air defence, anti-tank roles * Perfect for combat search and rescue missions * Loaded with advanced military technology features * Narrow fuselage with tandem seating configuration * Incorporates a number of stealth features * Crashworthy landing gear * Armour protection for better survivability OneIndia News

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/light-com ... 88850.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by member_28108 »

^^^ Cold weather trials are already over and were done in Leh
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Karthik S »

Arun Menon wrote:^Almost no deal with the americans are "purely" military. There is always a quid pro quo. In the case of UPA (God knows what evil nonsense) and in the case of NDA, some sort of mutual back scratching for sure (perhaps the MTCR seat?).
In that case we better go for what we already have and can't get similar equipment in the near future such as C 17, C 130j etc.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Eric Leiderman »

The reason for the aphache and the low number. (speculation)

1) Reason To learn about the electronics/ systems / vibration dampers etc which might be helpful in LCh Mark II and III
2) Low numbers If we do end up in a shooting match with the chinese and they start gobbling up our NE the Aphache, c130 and heavy lifters
might be lent to us in numbers as we have trained personnel to man them

Speclation ends
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Eric Leiderman wrote:The reason for the aphache and the low number. (speculation)

1) Reason To learn about the electronics/ systems / vibration dampers etc which might be helpful in LCh Mark II and III
2) Low numbers If we do end up in a shooting match with the chinese and they start gobbling up our NE the Aphache, c130 and heavy lifters
might be lent to us in numbers as we have trained personnel to man them
If the Chinese start gobbling NE and we are waiting for people to lend us Apaches, we really should order several huge glass cases to house our nukes and missiles for public display.

We need exactly one Apache to learn about vibration systems. Why 22?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by member_23061 »

shiv wrote:
Eric Leiderman wrote:The reason for the aphache and the low number. (speculation)

1) Reason To learn about the electronics/ systems / vibration dampers etc which might be helpful in LCh Mark II and III
2) Low numbers If we do end up in a shooting match with the chinese and they start gobbling up our NE the Aphache, c130 and heavy lifters
might be lent to us in numbers as we have trained personnel to man them
If the Chinese start gobbling NE and we are waiting for people to lend us Apaches, we really should order several huge glass cases to house our nukes and missiles for public display.

We need exactly one Apache to learn about vibration systems. Why 22?
Coz in Bruce Wayne logic, that would be suspicious??

Its still a bad deal but something I can live with if Arjun and Tejas are inducted in numbers
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by John »

Eric Leiderman wrote:The reason for the aphache and the low number. (speculation)

1) Reason To learn about the electronics/ systems / vibration dampers etc which might be helpful in LCh Mark II and III
2) Low numbers If we do end up in a shooting match with the chinese and they start gobbling up our NE the Aphache, c130 and heavy lifters
might be lent to us in numbers as we have trained personnel to man them

Speclation ends
The reason for procuring Apache's is longbow, apache can operate with LCH and can great improve their combat awareness and also help deal with threats include SHORAD systems. That said my preference would be UAV fitted with sensor modules to fill that requirement but that said the technology is just not there yet.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Eric Leiderman »

If China were to attack India , Russia would be neutral, The US would make a noise and quietly supply us with stuff (that would effectively increase the duration of the war.)
Which country will supply you with 1 Apachee or any such system.
with 22 apaches the end result will be catylistic , in the sense if we could get the data link to our drones and LCH it would have a multiplying effect.

The Above is a bit OT for this thread hence will keep it short.
In an India China war erupts, it is in the US interest to see the war last for at least 6-12 weeks. If India can produce a stalemate whereby not much terrotary is lost but hostilities continue that would be the ideal situation for the US for reasons stated under , the C17 c130 apache m177 combo will be of assistance in the poorly connected NE
i) They want to see how good the chinese equipment is, its drawbacks. How it fares against american/western/russian equipment,
ii) The longer the war continues, the longer it will take for the chinese and Indian economies to play catch up.
iii) The longer the war progresses, the more the chances of the chinese economic supply chain deteroriating.
With the on time procurement mindset, that will iniatially cause major disruptions in the world economy.
A fall back of which will be diversification of supply chain , and more emphisis on multiple supply chains.
This will effect the upward march of the Chinese economy. This would be the Numero Uno thrust to steer the capatilistic system away from cheapest is best.

The Apache is a well developed platform, there is a lot to lean from/on it from a scientific and operational point of view. The small numbers does not curtail the amount of Pilots/personnel that can be trained on the platforms, Just in case more are available to us in time of dire need. It could be a fall back plan,That might or might not happen. Hopefully we do not see a war.
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