MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 04 Oct 2010 14:36

Jamie Boscardin wrote:An actual war over the skies will not be a dog-fight but a be a BVR game.
Track first, fire first and then get the hell out of there.
In this scenario, the twin engine which provides a better get-away is always better than a single engine one.
Single engine in general should be used for interdiction role in today's warfare primarily when you will have numbers within your airspace along with your SAM's.

Why? I would say it has more to do with the T/W-ratio and SC ability than the number of engines.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 04 Oct 2010 16:05

"No Connection Between Tejas MK-II Engine and MMRCA" : IAF Chief
Livefist

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik Today Asserted that there was "No Connection" between the GE F414 Engine Selection for the Tejas MK-II and the Indian MMRCA competition.

He was Asked if the F414's Selection would provide any considerable Advantage to the Two Platforms in the MMRCA that were Powered by the Same Engine.

His Reply : "No, There is No Connection."

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Oct 2010 16:32

the kvality of diskushun on this dhaaga is now suitable for inclusion in LMU syllabus

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Oct 2010 16:46

Juggi G wrote:"No Connection Between Tejas MK-II Engine and MMRCA" : IAF Chief

From the horses mouth.. This ones big! .

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 04 Oct 2010 16:50

Seems like the EF and the Rafale are still the lead contenders

But having said that we will go down this path time and again for the next few months till the downselect happens hopefully by year end. Though as things go here that could be well into the next year.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 04 Oct 2010 18:13

"The rules of engagement are a big factor in any DACT. You should know that. In one-on-one combat, an F-15 will almost certainly trounce a MiG-21 Bison and even a die-hard IAF fan should know that. They were constrained from firing BVR shots beyond 20 km and the Bisons were not..the Bisons were part of a package (that included Su-30s that likely handing out target data) that generally had numerical superiority over the defending F-15s and the defenders had to try and get the strike MiG-27s from reaching the target. They accepted that the IAF trounced them because they were not expecting a very well trained and professional AF, but that doesn't mean that the Bison is a better fighter than the F-15 !

if you believe otherwise, then well I won't argue further."

u missed the point -we bought 27s and 21s at a cost 1/50th that of an eagle so naturally in a real combat we shall use a tactics that takes advantage of numerical superiority

And the the cope series exercise is based exactly on that assumption - and it also proved high technology can not always offset numerical superiority if the adversary uses the right mix of aircraft

when attacking a high value target defended by high end air superiority aircraft like F-15 we can and will use innovative mix and tactics to get the job done

Cope 2004 showed exactly how it can be done

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 04 Oct 2010 19:44

Good analysis - excepting the cock-up about FA-18 being single engined..

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LJ05Df02.html

Jamie Boscardin · Post by **Jamie Boscardin** » 04 Oct 2010 20:42

Anthony Hines wrote:Good analysis - excepting the cock-up about FA-18 being single engined..

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LJ05Df02.html

Man, why to run around here and there, go to the aircraft maker's webpage directly to know about their own product
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... /index.htm
OR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A ... per_Hornet

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 04 Oct 2010 20:55

Jamie Boscardin wrote:
Anthony Hines wrote:Good analysis - excepting the cock-up about FA-18 being single engined..

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LJ05Df02.html
Man, why to run around here and there, go to the aircraft maker's webpage directly to know about their own product
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... /index.htm
OR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A ... per_Hornet

I assume you have read the article before your gratuitous advise. .

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Oct 2010 03:16

vic wrote:I have always wondered why F-15 is missing from MRCA contest if F-18, Rafale and Typhoon are present.

because the same company that can offer the F-15E/SE is the one that is offering the Super Hornet. And they don't offer both their fighters to any one competition.

They carefully weighed the option of which fighter to offer based on the fact that this is a Medium MRCA requirement. Its the same reason that the Su-35 variant was not sent the RFI/RFP by the IAF. The F-15 is a heavier, larger aircraft than the F-18 E/F, its costlier and overlaps with the Su-30MKI in the IAF. BTW, even though JASDF is a huge F-15 operator, its more than likely that Boeing will only offer the F/A-18 E/F to them for their upcoming F-X competition.

BTW, just so you know, the Super Hornet's airframe is far more modern than even the F-15E. The F-15 is considered to be really difficult airplane to build and requires very skilled riveters. The technology infusion that the Hornet airframe got in the Super Hornet program meant that it is a very modern aircraft to build compared to the F-15.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Oct 2010 03:23

Kartik wrote: BTW, just so you know, the Super Hornet's airframe is far more modern than even the F-15E. The F-15 is considered to be really difficult airplane to build and requires very skilled riveters. The technology infusion that the Hornet airframe got in the Super Hornet program meant that it is a very modern aircraft to build compared to the F-15.

Ah, but here on BRF as you know, the SH is an "aging 70's era" aircraft onlee, no matter how modern its airframe is.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Oct 2010 03:59

F15 is also expensive to maintain

its onlee for Saudis , japanese etc. TFTA gold plated economies who are never going to fight a war

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Oct 2010 05:49

shukla wrote:India to spend over $25 billion to induct 250 5th-gen stealth fighters
TOI reports

Could this mean EU/US maal for MMRCA?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Oct 2010 07:00

Was it not from Ajai Shukla about an early release of EJ200 news and from him again that actually went to GE engines for Tejas as the first one to break the news. In LCA case it was 50-50 chance and so easy to play games on who can be the winner. The MRCA is going to be tuff for Mr Shukla. Shuklaji are you listening?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 05 Oct 2010 08:40

RamaY wrote:
shukla wrote:India to spend over $25 billion to induct 250 5th-gen stealth fighters
TOI reports
Could this mean EU/US maal for MMRCA?

Indeed, looks like a subtle message to Russians

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Oct 2010 09:10

No doubt the Shornet, and in fact even the original Hornet is/was a fine example of a/c building technologies - for example, the original had a huge percentage of composites in its airframe (close to 20% or so iirc). As a result it showed certain excellent qualities - great fuel fraction (on the original), exceptional payload capacity, low empty weight (as low as the MiG-29 more or less), and super maintenance/turnaround for a carrier based a/c.

However, exceptional flight performance (unless it is very slow speeds) was never one of its strengths. It is truly unfortunate that with all the wonderful tech that went into making the Hornet, its design was somewhat compromised. This is more so for the super hornet - the bird is anything but an air superiority fighter ala F-15C/Flanker/Fulcrum, let alone a Tiffy, Rafale or Su-35. Bandaid fixes apart, the a/c is not one that I'd want the IAF to face upgraded AESA equipped Chinese flanker variants - Carlo Kopp, for all his Raptorism seems to be correct in his assessment as to how the Superbug would fare vs. souped up flankers - not good.

As a medium type a/c, I'd rather have seen a modified F-18A/C with GE-F414s, possibly even the TVC (HARV program?), an excellent AESA and all the latest gizmos. The Hornet 2000 concept was nice too. Similarly, in the case of the the other US contender, the F-16; I'd rather have seen an F-16XL type instead of the current chubby UAE version.

CM.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2010 09:12

CM,

Long time, no see.

Where have been, Sir?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Oct 2010 09:16

What to do onlee Rohit saar - drowning in work, studies, kids, you name it.

CM.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Oct 2010 09:35

how does the USN plan to deal with masses of chinese flanker/j10 over taiwan using fa18/ef ? will they play a low profile and depend on land based fighters from korea and japan?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Oct 2010 12:24

Cain Marko wrote:What to do onlee Rohit saar - drowning in work, studies, kids, you name it.

CM.

Oh I thought you were just a teenage kid

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Oct 2010 13:28

Singha wrote:how does the USN plan to deal with masses of chinese flanker/j10 over taiwan using fa18/ef ? will they play a low profile and depend on land based fighters from korea and japan?

admirals and generals are pushing for F22/F35 in budget talks
senators and congressmen are tightening budget
tamasha goes on

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Oct 2010 19:42

Austin wrote:Oh I thought you were just a teenage kid

how does the USN plan to deal with masses of chinese flanker/j10 over taiwan using fa18/ef ? will they play a low profile and depend on land based fighters from korea and japan?

Can't see why the US will meddle between China/Taiwan any more - the no supply of weapons to Taiwan seems to be an indication that they couldn't care less. However, in the unlikely event that something requires US intervention, Kadena isn't too far away. An expeditionary force of F-22s stationed there should make a world of difference along with carrier based Shornets.

Of course, by themselves the Shornets will find it very difficult even against current Chinese assets. With AESA variants of flanker types coming along, F-22 intervention and JSF success becomes critical.

CM.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 05 Oct 2010 20:03

Also the RCAF has very few SAM's. AFAIK they only have a contract of 6 PAC systems of which some 3 are delivered so far (Not sure). A country like Taiwan should have large number of SAM's as it is a defensive Nation facing overwhelming odds. SAM's could be a real game changer !

Austin wrote:Oh I thought you were just a teenage kid

That would be me sir !

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 05 Oct 2010 20:18

admirals and generals are pushing for F22/F35 in budget talks
senators and congressmen are tightening budget
tamasha goes on

Like Carter, Obama too shall pass.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 06 Oct 2010 00:55

I think that $25 billion 5th generation FGFA news is a deliberate release....to mollify the russians in case the contract goes in favour of US...first the GE414 engine and now this...I think its a give away that F 18 has been selected...

jai · Post by **jai** » 06 Oct 2010 01:31

I think that $25 billion 5th generation FGFA news is a deliberate release to mollify the russians in case the contract goes in favour of US...first the GE414 engine and now this...I think its a give away that F 18 has been selected....

(though highly unlikely) I hope our babus and politicians know what may be the implications of these actions....we should not end up loosing our only "historically proven" all weather friend (one who is still giving us technologies no one else would) to those who see us in the same light as the Pakis.

Important to note that the same "all weather friend" also has the capability to better equip the panda if we are seen to be a vassal state to the amrikhans.....the amrikhans would not still prop up the panda against us even if we are seen as friends of the bear.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Oct 2010 01:37

jai wrote:
(though highly unlikely) I hope our babus and politicians know what may be the implications of these actions....we should not end up loosing our only "historically proven" all weather friend (one who is still giving us technologies no one else would) to those who see us in the same light as the Pakis.

There is an inherent contradiction in what you are saying. "Historically proven", and "all-weather" friends do not desert you just because one deal does not go their way.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 06 Oct 2010 13:23

jai wrote:(though highly unlikely) I hope our babus and politicians know what may be the implications of these actions....we should not end up loosing our only "historically proven" all weather friend (one who is still giving us technologies no one else would) to those who see us in the same light as the Pakis.

Not true, the khan needs us to fight the panda someday and unlike Pak which needs khan's moolah to stay afloat we have have other options which includes our "all weather" but "alcoholic" friend.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 06 Oct 2010 16:01

alcoholic friend who designed out our nuclear submarine - and our stealth fighters and our stealth frigates and our supersonic cruise missiles - and sober friends who still not have agreed to most guarded technology even when offered a 10 billion dollar deal

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Oct 2010 16:21

Intersting comparison SriSri between OmBaba and Carter.In fact articles are now appearing in the western media whether the Messiah is actually another Jimmy Carter.

If 200-250 5th-gen fighters are being planned,add to that another 300 Flankers,for a total force of around 900-1000 aircraft,it would mean that about 200 MMRCA aircraft (plus miscellaneous upgrades still in service) plus 120+ LCAs will be required.The upgraded masala of Mirages,MIG-29s,MIG-27s and Jags will all have to be replaced by the MCA/UCAV combine.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Oct 2010 18:20

Philip wrote:Intersting comparison SriSri between OmBaba and Carter.In fact articles are now appearing in the western media whether the Messiah is actually another Jimmy Carter.

If 200-250 5th-gen fighters are being planned,add to that another 300 Flankers,for a total force of around 900-1000 aircraft,it would mean that about 200 MMRCA aircraft (plus miscellaneous upgrades still in service) plus 120+ LCAs will be required.The upgraded masala of Mirages,MIG-29s,MIG-27s and Jags will all have to be replaced by the MCA/UCAV combine.

That would be a very potent mix few would dare to go against.Only thing required is strong political will.Indian ocean is India's ocean.With the integrated operations command the IAF would probably be a strategic force with a long arm.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 06 Oct 2010 18:21

The future air power of India – MMRCA

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Oct 2010 18:47

Asked if the selection of the American GE-414 engine for the LCA Mk II 'Tejas' fighter would help two of the aircraft flying with the same engine in the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Deal,
Naik said, "I Don't Think so, They are Not Connected at All".

Link

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Oct 2010 18:51

No evidence to back this up but I think the GE engine strategically is a case of "diversifying portfolio" and not necessarily a fillip to the Bug's chances in the MRCA. To put on my psychic octopus hat, I think the way to guess is to decide which deal allows us to gain the most strategic influence? I don't think picking the Bug gives India any sort of leverage over the US, the same way it would give over France or EU etc. We would be France's only customer with the Rafale whereas with the Athrah we would just be extending the production run. JMT.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 06 Oct 2010 21:37

the main reason why us is trying hard is simple -to keep us jobs -just like the situation which triggered the sukhoi deal in the first place 200 million us dollars was perhaps the best investment we ever made in the history of India
With US it may be the exact opposite and the government and IAF knows it too well but some in IAF do believe it will give us a strategic advantage with US so pushing for F-18 and sourcing items from US
They some how have managed to forget LCA fisco after pok 2

And they also dont seem to realize Pok 3 will happen sooner or later better sooner -the real strategic independence need be proven beyond doubt

and then everything from western side of the world will just dry up ,supplies frozen and we will be left with not even a promise

the price of Mig35 will then double and we shall cry foul

Those who refuse to learn from history -do not deserve a place in it

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Oct 2010 21:57

Shankar wrote:the main reason why us is trying hard is simple -to keep us jobs

bhai sahab, its the same situation everywhere ! Or do you believe that other nations are offering their fighters/transports/helicopters/tanks/howitzers is because they are in love with India ?! Its business as usual everywhere, so what is with the non-stop US bashing ? Its frankly getting very very tiring between you and Philip and few other posters constantly bringing in the evil US Uncle angle into every damn discussion.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 06 Oct 2010 23:31

Kartik wrote: bhai sahab, its the same situation everywhere ! Or do you believe that other nations are offering their fighters/transports/helicopters/tanks/howitzers is because they are in love with India ?! Its business as usual everywhere, so what is with the non-stop US bashing ? Its frankly getting very very tiring between you and Philip and few other posters constantly bringing in the evil US Uncle angle into every damn discussion.

The reason is we don't have sweet memories of our dealings with US... hence the evil angle which is so common you see... They want US specific Nuke Liabliity bill, EUMA, CISMO, Logistic agreement and every hell restriction that they can think of.. Evil angle is because of sudden stoppage of supply for everything (incl nuts and bolts) because US president finds himself on the wrong side of the bad on one fine morning... With Russians and france, it is only money.......

iparvas · Post by **iparvas** » 07 Oct 2010 00:29

the winner will be the bird with the lowest bid , total tech transfer ..... currently the top three contenders are MiG -35 , Gripen NG , F16 superviper .... $10 billion deal for 126 birds can only fit the above three jets ....

F/A 18 superhornet is too expensive and only limited tech transfer .
EF Tyhoon and Rafale are way too costly to match the price of other fighters.

F16 superviper is most likely to be rejected as PAK airforce is getting these birds as free gifts and they have more experience flying them ....wouldn't make sense IAF would have the same birds as the opponents....
Gripen NG looks good enough as it is priced well below other major competitors ... but recently the Ministry of defence has announced it was getting the F414 engines from USA for the MKII LCA ... with a bit of modifications the LCA fitted with GE F414 engines would match the Gripen NG eventually or even perform better so in such a scenario why go for the Gripen NG ?.....
That leaves us with the MiG 35 ..... priced a lot cheaper as compared to western aircraft ... open tech platform.. neer variant of the MiG series with thrust vectoring and AESA radar ... also IAF is familiar with MiG .... total tech transfer to India for production with security codes so that in the event of war IAF can programme them to what it likes.....

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 07 Oct 2010 01:02

^^On the contrary what is getting really tiresome is the unabashed love-songs for all things Americans. Perhaps the biggest falsification of all is to generalize. And phrases like "all the countries are have treated us the same" and "all are in this only for the money...", ignore a large part of our post independence history.
In our 50 years life as an independent nation different countries have treated us differently and still do so, Russian record has for 90% percent of that time been sterling and how has US actually treated us? Lets wait and see before we write these swan songs of love.
Just because some of us chose to live and work in US doesnt mean we all have to fall head over heels for Uncle Sam.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Oct 2010 04:29

I think that $25 billion 5th generation FGFA news is a deliberate release....to mollify the russians in case the contract goes in favour of US...first the GE414 engine and now this...I think its a give away that F 18 has been selected...

This after talk of they being advised/told/whatever that they will not be considered?

India has matured beyond current BR group. We need to drop this cold war thinking of groupism.

Sorry if this was posted earlier, did not see it when I glanced through the thread:

Eurojet pays dearly for engine re-bid delay

Karma is a .................