Indian Military Aviation

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 06 Oct 2010 05:39

WHY are you guys discussing issues like this? there is a thing called S-300/400/500 that provides cover to Russian AFB so the probability of an air base operating WITHOUT any protection is WELL CHILDISH! Not only Russian even IAF Bases would certainly not operate without AD covereage (Akash would be used here if not the Russian AD sys), Recall a discussion earlier that I posted where Air Marshall said that AD is the ONLY thing that they are thinking of procuring as a High Priority (something to the like don't have the exact quote rite now)

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Oct 2010 07:01

Poland unveils the modernised version of its PZL-130 Orlik, which has been offered to the IAF for the basic trainer RFP.

article link

Poland's first modernised PZL-130 Orlik trainer was unveiled at the PZL Warszawa - Okecie facility of Airbus Military on 22 September. Dubbed the Orlik TC-II, the aircraft features a Pratt & Whitney PT6-25C engine, which replaces its original Walter M601T, plus new wings, Garmin avionics and rearranged cockpit instruments.

The upgrades result in the Orlik TC-II having an improved climb rate, an increased top speed of 246kt (456km/h), a claimed 40% improvement in manoeuverability and a 20% reduction in fuel consumption.

A new maintenance system has also been devised for the improved type, with each airframe now expected to have a service life of 10,000-12,000 flight hours.

PZL representatives say the enhancements could save the Polish air force about 250 million zlotys ($84 million) in operating costs over the next 30 years for a fleet of 28 aircraft.

Poland's defence ministry signed a 148 million zlotys deal with Airbus Military last January to upgrade 16 PZL-130s to the Orlik TC-II standard. Deliveries to the 4th Flight Training Wing at the air force academy in Deblin should conclude in March 2014.

An agreement is expected soon to modify the air force's remaining 12 aircraft to a TC-III standard, which will add a synthetic training capability to the Orlik's cockpit avionics.

Airbus Military will send a TC-II-standard trainer to India in mid-October using two Polish air force C-295s for tests expected to last until 2 November. The type is being offered to meet an Indian air force trainer requirement, with Poland's ETC-PZL Aerospace Industries company supporting the bid.

Uruguay has been named as another possible customer for the type, while Airbus Military will also offer the TC-II as a contender for a Spanish air force tender for between 50 and 70 new turboprop trainers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Oct 2010 10:11

No CISMOA? Here's What They're Pulling From The Indian C-130J

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Oct 2010 10:46

sirji, if the df21 is being enhanced to hit a 50m wide moving carrier in the sea, cant it hit a 300x100m patch of stationary land from 500km away?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 06 Oct 2010 11:10

Austin wrote:No CISMOA? Here's What They're Pulling From The Indian C-130J

Perfectly fine. Since its all comms stuff, we would definitely want to use our own equipment there rather than rely on bugged hardware/software.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 06 Oct 2010 12:05

Will the price be reduced because these equipments are not integrated? If so, any guesses what would be likely amount?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 06 Oct 2010 13:13

merlin wrote:Perfectly fine. Since its all comms stuff, we would definitely want to use our own equipment there rather than rely on bugged hardware/software.

There is one issue with putting Indian stuff and i.e the Americans don't allow their equipment to be upgraded by anybody else which also includes the customer country. That means India will have to sign the deal or fly those aircrafts without the critical communications systems. IMO when India thinks signing EUM agreement is fine than why is CISMOA troubling us ? Get over with it.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 06 Oct 2010 13:29

NDTV video Featuring IAF C -130 First Flight

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 06 Oct 2010 13:41

Enhanced Ilyushin IL-76MF to Compete for Indian Transport Aircraft Requirements

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 06 Oct 2010 14:13

smpratik wrote:
merlin wrote:Perfectly fine. Since its all comms stuff, we would definitely want to use our own equipment there rather than rely on bugged hardware/software.
There is one issue with putting Indian stuff and i.e the Americans don't allow their equipment to be upgraded by anybody else which also includes the customer country. That means India will have to sign the deal or fly those aircrafts without the critical communications systems. IMO when India thinks signing EUM agreement is fine than why is CISMOA troubling us ? Get over with it.

Well, doesn't the P8I have some Indian equipment installed onboard?

Aditya Watts · Post by **Aditya Watts** » 06 Oct 2010 14:27

parshuram wrote:NDTV video Featuring IAF C -130 First Flight

Embarrassing moment at 1.41

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Oct 2010 14:44

merlin wrote: Well, doesn't the P8I have some Indian equipment installed onboard?

IIRC, some BEL designed Datalinks...

Aditya Watts · Post by **Aditya Watts** » 06 Oct 2010 14:59

Regarding the memorandum issue concerning the P8I, does anybody know how this was in the old days (around 50's and 60s) when India used to fly American-made equipment such as the C119 and the "super conny"?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Oct 2010 18:21

Going Obsolete
Editorial
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Oct 2010 18:24

India's First C-130J Super Hercules Takes Off !

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Oct 2010 18:28

Lockheed Flies India's First C-130J

India's first US-built military transport has made its debut flight, with the Lockheed Martin C-130J having taken to the air from Marietta, Georgia on 4 October.

The first of six stretched-fuselage Hercules on order for the Indian air force, aircraft KC-3801 will be followed by two more examples getting airborne "within the next few weeks", Lockheed says.

Lockheed says the Production Test Flight Lasted around 2h and Included an Initial ShakeDown of all Aircraft Systems.

"The aircraft will now complete a series of company and customer flight tests prior to delivery in December," it adds.

New Delhi signed a contract for its new tactical transports in 2007. The aircraft will feature equipment including an in-flight refuelling probe and a FLIR Systems AAQ-22 Star Safire III electro-optical/infrared sensor turret.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Oct 2010 18:39

IAF to Induct 200-250 Fifth Generation Fighters
Daily News & Analysis

IAF to Induct 200-250 Fifth Generation Fighters
Published: Monday, Oct 4, 2010, 19:06 IST
Place: New Delhi | Agency: PTI

India today said it was looking to induct around 200-250 fight generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which are being co-developed with Russia.

"We are looking for around 200-250 aircraft," Air Chief Marshal PV Naik told reporters at a press conference for the 78th anniversary of the IAF to be celebrated on the Air Force Day on October 8.

He said the aircraft weighing over 30 tonnes are expected to start joining the force by 2017.

Commenting on the capabilities of the most advanced fighter aircraft, Naik said, "It would be a swing-role fighter with highly advanced avionics, giving 360 degree situational awareness, stealth to increase survivability and smart weapons."

He added that the aircraft would be capable of covering long ranges without air to air refuelling and will have the super-cruise features along with the highly advanced mission computers.

Replying to a Query, Naik said in the Near Future, the IAF Fighter Fleet would Comprise Mainly Four Types of Aircraft including the FGFA, Sukhoi-30MKIs, the yet to be procured M-MRCA and the under-development LCA.

At present, the IAF has seven different types of aircraft in its fighter fleet including the MiGs 21, 23, 27 and 29, Jaguars, Mirage-2000 and the Su-30 MKI.

Asked if the IAF would want to further reduce the variety of fighters with it, Naik said, "the ideal situation would be that I only have one type of aircraft but the world is not ideal".

To a Query on whether the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) was Looking to Procure more Assets, the IAF chief said, "Definitely we will need Approval for More Assets because the Present Strength is for Meeting our Present Tasks and for Additional Tasks, we will Require More".

Asked if the selection of the American GE-414 engine for the LCA Mk II 'Tejas' fighter would help two of the aircraft flying with the same engine in the multi-role combat aircraft deal,
Naik said, "I Don't Think so, They are Not Connected at All".

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Oct 2010 18:43

SriSri wrote:Enhanced Ilyushin IL-76MF to Compete for Indian Transport Aircraft Requirements

Another paper plane from trusted Russian friends!

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 06 Oct 2010 18:47

Umm.. it made first flight few weeks ago. You can argue it doesn't meet requirements, but for sure it is not a "paper plane".

Or am I wrong? Why is it a "paper" plane?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Oct 2010 18:56

How long will the cirtification of the aircraft take?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 06 Oct 2010 19:14

As per wiki, IL-76MF first flew in 1995. It seems every time India decides to procure something, someone decides to dust off an older plane and claim it as a new variant under development. Reminds me of all the stories surrounding Mig-29K. When the deal for AG was being discussed, Russians claimed they had the most uptodate SMT/M2 version of the K ready to fulfil India's needs. They took another 3 years after the deal was signed to deliver the first aircraft (18 months after it was supposed to be delivered). So we sign the contract, they use the money to develop the aircraft while our services sit on the bottoms waiting for operational requiorements to be fulfilled. The stories at the time IAF tried to place orders for Airbus tankers were not terribly different.

Paper plane!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Oct 2010 19:30

The IL-476 aka marketing name IL-76MF flew for the first time yesterday.

Wiki is wrong on this.

arya · Post by **arya** » 06 Oct 2010 20:00

Nausakhiya sabal~ GoI has approved AMCA?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Oct 2010 20:56

India’s First C 130J Takes to Air
..:: India Strategic ::..

Marietta, Georgia. The first of the six C-130J Super Hercules for Indian Air Force (IAF) took to the skies for its maiden flight Oct 4.

The Aircraft was given a Ceremonial Welcome Shower for its (First) Flight, (So that's what it is, went over my head yesterday when only the photos were relased by Lockheed, the only thing missing in the photo is a white unicorn, with not one but two Rainbows around. But how can a Hindu Farmer like me fathom what the hell is really going on)

and is now set to complete a series of company and customer flight tests prior to delivery in December, Lockheed Martin announced here.

All the C 130Js ordered by IAF for are due for delivery within 2011.

IAF is considering an option to buy another six C 130Js, and discussions are continuing with the company. There would be No Cost Escalation as the Option Clause was Included at the Time of the Contract Signed a couple of years ago.

The aircraft is to be used for special operations, like insertions of troops into trouble spots, including mountainous terrain. A rugged aircraft, the C 130J has been used in various conflict zones worldwide with a high rate of success.

It can Land and Takeoff from Unpaved Strips the Size of a Football Ground in Darkness, and can be Configured for Midair Refueler or Medical Roles.

Also, the aircraft itself can also be refueled midair by IAF’s IL -78 refuelers, for which a special system has been developed by the Lockheed Martin and India’s HAL.

There are some India-Specific Instruments on Board as Required by IAF. All the six or more C 130Js with IAF would have Connectivity with the Air Force Net (AFNET) as well as with Aerial Assets of the Indian Army and Navy.

The C-130J Super Hercules, a four-engine turboprop military transport aircraft, is a Comprehensive Update of the Venerable Lockheed C-130 Hercules, with new engines, flight deck, and other systems.

Lockheeed Martin is setting up Support Infrastructure for the Aircraft's Operations at Hindon Airbase on the Outskirts of the Indian Capital while IAF Personnel are in the US for Flying and Engineering Support Training.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 06 Oct 2010 21:12

I see this plane type frequently flying overhead coming in to land or takeoff for the US Coast Guard based in Sacramento. This plane flys long missions typically on station in places like San Deigo with many hours of on station time. There is a reason the back of the Airplane is sloped so sharply to the tail section. At a Mather Airshow a couple of years ago this plane did a short take off that was amazing. It took off in less than 200 yards almost 60 deg nose to the sky and belive me that tail section was scraping the ground.. The only thing missing were the sparks... very very tfta...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Oct 2010 22:09

2 More Photos of India's C-130J

http://photos.state.gov/galleries/india/5/c130j/1.html

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Oct 2010 23:07

Cross- Posting

Russia Should Help India in Developing N-Triad : Expert

News

Russia Should Help India in Developing N-Triad : Expert
Vinay Shukla
Moscow, Oct 5 (PTI)

Ahead of Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov's New Delhi visit, a Top Defence Expert has said Russia Should Help India in Developing its "Wholesome" Nuclear Triad to further advance bilateral defence cooperation.

"In my view, Russia Must Help India in the Development of its Wholesome Nuclear Triad, so that it has Naval, Air and Land Platforms for its Nuclear Delivery Systems," Ruslan Pukhov, Director of the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) said.

Pukhov is also a Member of Public Advisory Board of the Russian Ministry of Defence and will accompany Serdyukov on his New Delhi visit beginning tomorrow during which the India-Russia intergovernmental commission on military- technical cooperation co-chaired by Defence A K Antony is to hold its annual session.

"Why Shouldn't We Jointly Work for the Development of an Indian SSBN (Nuclear Submarine for Launching Ballistic Missiles)" Pukhov told PTI.

He Suggested that India and Russia Could Jointly Develop a "de facto" Common Naval System of Nuclear Deterrence Similar to the one US and Britain Have.

"In case China Develops its Fleet of Aircraft Carriers, Russia could Offer Project 949 (Nato codename Oscar-II) Nuclear Submarines, Naval Tu-22M3 Bombers and Even, Although Could Sound Incredible, the Nuclear Propelled Missile Cruisers of Project 1144 (Orlan class)," Pukhov said.

Reacting to India's apprehensions about China's growing military clout, Pukhov termed as false reports that Moscow was giving superior weapons and technologies to Beijing.

"The Type of Harmony and Complementarity of the Military-Political Interests Russia has with India, will Simply never be in our relations with China. This Would Contradict the Elementary Norms of Geopolitics," he said.

"You will never hear Russian officials expressing concern at the growing Chinese military might, but all of them are well aware of its implications and very well understand that PRC poses a potential threat to Russia's Far East and Eastern Siberia," he said.

The Massive Wargames Vostok-2010 (Orient 2010) involving Thousand of Servicemen and Warships in the Far East and Eastern Siberia, during which the Russian Troops also Practiced the Use of Tactical Nuclear Weapons are the Reflection of this Concern, he said.

"The Indian Air Force's Sukhoi Su-30MKI is a Generation Ahead of Su-30MKK/MK2 fighters given to China. Same can be said about Talwar class Stealth Frigates built for India and ''Sovremenny'' class Destroyer sold to China.

"While India and Russia are jointly developing hypersonic BrahMos cruise missiles, Fifth Generation fighter (FGFA) and Futuristic Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA), No Such Project is Underway with China," Pukhov noted.

Now is the Right Time to join the band wagon of PAK-DA The Next Generation Strategic Bomber Project of Russia ala PAK-FA/FGFA,
In order to Acheive the True Blue 50:50, Joint Research & Development of the Strategic Systems of an Aircraft i.e. Engines, Radar, Avionics, Sensors and Aircraft Materials Technology. & the Next Generation / Iteration of Weapons & Munitions that will be the payload.

India is having to fork up half the Research & Development bill of PAK-FA/FGFA, when they have already R & Developed the Engines, Radar and almost whatever else that goes into it. & there is no news of India joining in the Development of the Definitve Super Cruising Engines for the Production examples of PAK-FA/FGFA.

Googling PAK DA throws up a plethora of news items regarding it.

PAK-DA - Wikipedia

The PAK-DA, is a Next Generation Strategic Bomber which is being Developed by Kazan Aircraft Production Association for Russia. It stands for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Dalney Aviatsyi (Перспективный авиационный комплекс дальней авиации in Russian) which means Future Air Complex for Long Range Aviation. The PAK DA will be a New, Stealthy, Strategic Bomber and is expected to enter service in the 2025-2030 timeframe.

Russian Maj. Gen. Anatoly Zhikharev has stated that the new bomber will replace both the turboprop-powered Tupolev Tu-95 and the supersonic Tupolev Tu-160.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Oct 2010 23:38

nrshah wrote:Will the price be reduced because these equipments are not integrated? If so, any guesses what would be likely amount?

obviously prices go down as equipment is not supplied. the IN has already specified some of its own Indian sourced equipment for the P-8Is and for the C-130J, they can probably install their own comm equipment.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 07 Oct 2010 05:00

Juggi G wrote: Now is the Right Time to join the band wagon of PAK-DA The Next Generation Strategic Bomber Project of Russia ala PAK-FA/FGFA,
In order to Acheive the True Blue 50:50, Joint Research & Development of the Strategic Systems of an Aircraft i.e. Engines, Radar, Avionics, Sensors and Aircraft Materials Technology. & the Next Generation / Iteration of Weapons & Munitions that will be the payload.

India is having to fork up half the Research & Development bill of PAK-FA/FGFA, when they have already R & Developed the Engines, Radar and almost whatever else that goes into it. & there is no news of India joining in the Development of the Definitve Super Cruising Engines for the Production examples of PAK-FA/FGFA.

Do we need a strategic bomber given our threat scenario? Frankly I don't know why even the Russians are going for one. The USAF wants the ability to strike anywhere in the world at short notice, that's not a foreseeable IAF objective. The future threats and challenges can be handled by the PAK-FA/AMCA with aerial refuelling. It'll be cheaper to rely on a mix of cruise missiles and fighters rather than develop a heavy stealth bomber from scratch. The PAK-DA may have some utility as a maritime strike platform but again the cost factor weighs heavily against it.

The B-2 program cost the US, $45 billion. Only 21 of the planned 137 were built. Unless Russia and India can do it for a tenth of that price... its probably not economical.

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Oct 2010 11:15

We definitely need a stealth bomber but a mid sized one based on PAKFA and not a strategic one. I think that a mid sized bomber with MTOW of 50 tons or so would be good beast to have around. I think that we should have:-

100-single seater PAKFA
150+50=200-two seater Pakfa (including 50 for navy)
50-Two seater strategic pakfa for nukes
50- Two seater PAKDA based on PAKFA
50-Two seater PAKFA as for EW/SEAD roles
100-Heavy Two seater CAS variant (also suitable of High altitude CAS) PAKFA for limited war in Himalayas - to engage in any redux kargill

This means that HAL will hae to build capacity for 550 PAKA rather then only for 200-250 PKFA. Otherwise we will have to make stop gap imports from Russia like in the case of Su-30MKI

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Oct 2010 11:57

^^ Perhaps for the PAK-DA and the CAS role, we can go with the AMCA, like shiv sir had suggested once... It'll be a good use of the knowledge gained from this project... Considering the strategic nature of the mission its always best to have an indigenous aircraft, rather than a imported/co-developed one..
JMO

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 07 Oct 2010 13:20

Russians may offer Il-476 for IAF’s Tanker Bid
BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Facing Stiff competitions from Europeans in Indian air force tanker requirement deal , Russians seems to have considering offering Il-476 aircraft’s, which is a significantly modernized version of Russia’s Il-76 Candid transport plane, featuring a fully-digital flight control system, new avionics and PS-90A-76 engines with improved fuel efficiency systems.

European company Airbus which had won the old tender to supply their Airbus 330 MRTT for $1 billion global tender floated in 2006 by the Indian defence ministry for six refuellers . but whole tender was scrapped since finance Ministry did not give clearance to the deal . Russians had offered Il-78 MKI which IAF already operates and have six in their force , but IAF was in favor of European Airbus 330 MRTT since it described it technologically more advanced .

First Il-476 will enter Russian air force from 2012 onwards , and Russians plans to buy more then 38 of this aircraft’s to replace their aging IL-76 Transport aircraft’s , Russia will also be inducting Tanker version of the Il-476 .

This version (Il-476) can carry up to 60 tons and is about 15 percent more fuel efficient. Russia is fast running out of surplus stock which it had of IL-76 aircraft , and will start work on development of new fresh air frames , IL-76 is widely used transport aircraft Over 900 Il-76s were manufactured over the last thirty years, with nearly a hundred exported.

Indian defence ministry has re-floated tender recently ,chances of any new aircraft in race is quite low (American entry unlikely ) while improvement of aircraft can only come from Russian side said defence expert rakesh sharma .

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 07 Oct 2010 13:26

Work on AMCA to begin by Mid 2011

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Oct 2010 13:48

the Stratagic forces command (SFC) has Issued a requirement for 40 airframes. They want it to be proven aircraft. But, if the Ruskies are interested and the SFC can wait that long. Then I feel that the PAK DA can be a good investment for the SFC.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Oct 2010 15:43

smpratik wrote:Russians may offer Il-476 for IAF’s Tanker Bid
BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

I think the entry of IL-476 is a welcome addition , it add significant capability improvement and low fuel consumption over the good old IL-76/78 that IAF is operating plus it provides logistic advantage with older IL.

I have read that IL-476 now needs just the two pilot for operation and have done away with flight engineer , the other major improvement besides the new engine and glass cockpit is it meets the latest ICAO standard on Noise and emission levels.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 07 Oct 2010 16:05

300 Fifth Generation Fighters, 45 Medium Transport Aircrafts for India

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Oct 2010 17:05

To have Strategic Bombers one needs Doctrine , Political Will and Global Strike Interest , Long Term Financial Commitment spread over decades and an industry that can build and support it.

That is one of the key reason only US and Russia has and can maintain these elements as part of their Global Strike Doctrine and spend many billions to maintain as seen from US NGB and Russian PAK-DA program.

IAF does not have the doctrine that defines the role of Strategic Bombing and the money needed to build such an institution and maintain it is huge plus they need political backing , beyond that I have never heard of top IAF officers ever talking about any need for Strategic or even Semi-Strategic bombers.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Oct 2010 18:18

Sify reports.. All about the 78th Air force day!

Indian Air Force gears up to celebrate its 78th anniversary

Added later..

Up above the world so high, IAF in the sky

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Oct 2010 18:21

IAF to conduct test trials of Beechcraft T-6C trainer

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will conduct field evaluation trials of Beechcraft T-6C military trainer from October 11, at the IAF Station Jamnagar, according to a report. Under the five-day test trials, the instructor pilots of Indian Air Force will evaluate the trainer aircraft. The T-6C is being considered as a replacement for the IAF’s HPT-32 Deepak 2 trainer.

According to the Hawker Beechcraft Corporation (HBC), the company is vying for a contract that specifies an initial purchase of 75 aircraft and options for follow-on orders that could eventually exceed 100 aircraft. A decision on the contract is anticipated in the coming months. “The T-6C offers the Indian Air Force the world’s most proven and cost-effective training system available,” Jim Maslowski, HBC president, US and International Government Business, said.

“It accommodates instruction in instrument flight procedures and basic aerial maneuvers and, including its predecessors the T-6A and T-6B, has accounted for more than 640 deliveries worldwide,” he added. HBC will also demonstrate the T-6C’s maintainability as part of the evaluation. Beechcraft T-6C military trainer is integrated with modern features; it is equipped with advanced avionics suite that greatly expands advanced training opportunities, including a head-up display, up front control panel, three multifunction displays, hands-on throttle and stick.

The aircraft can also accommodate external fuel tanks with its hard pointing wing, its systems has capabilities of today’s front-line strike fighter aircraft. Currently, the Beechcraft T-6 is used to train pilots from approximately 20 different countries.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Oct 2010 23:49

Good Morning. Happy IAF Day
Iconic Memories On The Wings Of Destiny