Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

[pragnya]

What will HAL learn from license manufacturing it ??? None of the "NG" technologies are from India and neither is there any offer for ToT with know why.

but you need to keep in mind HAL is the only manufacturing unit of these Dorniers and there is a great demand for them for different needs. an improved Dornier will only consolidate HAL's hold on the market. besides the knowhow is being offered at 'no cost' with committments for new buys. why should it be lost?

learning may not be substantial but it helps still.

let me give an example - IJT Sitara was designed with Larzac engine but when they realised it was underpowered, an adhoc request was made to the russians to design AL55I and as can be seen now HAL is struggling with a chain of issues - mods needed for the change of engine (whose reliability is also in question), aerodynamic part, weight penalty etc..

now even in the Dornier NG too there is an engine change but the mods knowhow etc will come from RUAG which will give lot of inputs/insights to the HAL engineers. i concede this is not an apple to apple comparison but the insights gained in one can be 'variably' adopted to other programmes by competent engineers IMO.

besides Karan M has already pointed out the other gains.

net, Dornier NG will bring in lot of business which can help other HAL programmes indirectly and improve manufacturing processes.

Frankly saar I fail to understand this "Improvement in production processes" line sold with each and every license manufacturing deal. We have set up a manufacturing line for 4th gen aircraft on our own but still each and every time I hear that we lack in production process. I agree that it's not our strong point but is it so weak that without outside help we won't be able to improve it ???

to the 'bolded' - the difference is while the one you are speaking of (SU 30MKI) is 'purely' for our own needs but the Dornier NG would be for the global market (apart from domestic needs).

rest of your point only emphasises what i/Karan M are trying to say - anything that helps needs to be imbibed which will only help both HAL and industry at large, in the long term.

[Vipul]

Indian Air Force planning fighter plane base in Nyoma in Ladakh: NAK Browne.

As part of efforts to build up military infrastructure along the border with China, the IAF today said it plans to develop a fighter aircraft base at Nyoma in Ladakh and is upgrading seven airfields for carrying out 24X7 operations in the northeast. The service is also considering extending the runway length and upgrading the Kargil airfield close to the Line of Control with Pakistan, its chief NAK Browne.

"Nyoma is an important location for both the Army and the IAF in the south east of Ladakh where we have good weather all round the year. The cost of developing the air base would be around Rs 2,173 crore and it will take 4-5 years to develop it," he said, addressing the 81st Air Force Day press conference here.

Browne said the proposal for developing the Nyoma air field was mooted in 2010 with the landing of an An-32 transport aircraft there. It is right now with the Finance Ministry and is expected to be taken up by the Cabinet next month, he said. "All types of aircraft including fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft would be able capable of being deployed and operated from there," he said. Browne said the airbase, located at an altitude of around 13,000 feet, is lower in height than the Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) at Daulat Beg Oldie but was higher than the air bases in Leh and Thoise.

The IAF had recently created a record of sorts by landing its C-130J Special Operations aircraft at the DBO ALG, which is situated at an altitude of over 16,000 feet and is close to Depsang Valley where Chinese troops had infiltrated and pitched the tents for 21 days earlier this year.

On the development of the seven ALGs in Arunachal Pradesh, Browne said, "About Rs 720 crore have been released for these seven air fields and work started last week. These would be ready for operations in next two or two-and-a-half years (by 2016-17). They would be able to take (transport) aircraft such as C-130J and An-32. These airfields will have capability to operate day and night."

The IAF has been working on developing its capabilities at several places in the northeast especially Arunachal Pradesh and had identified landing grounds at places including Mechuka, Tuting, Pasighat, Along and Walong. It has been upgrading its strength in the northeastern region and has deployed frontline aircraft such as Su-30MKI in places such as Tezpur and Chhabua in Assam. The force is also upgrading the infrastructure at its air fields to enable them to operate and deploy all types of aircraft in its inventory.

To a query on China, Browne said the Prime Minister was going there in the third or fourth week of this month and the two sides are discussing the Border Defence Cooperation Agreement (BDCA). He said once BDCA comes to force, it will provide much better understanding for maintaining peace and tranquility along the Line of Actual Control (LAC). Browne, without making a reference to any particular country, said his force would ensure air dominance in case of hostilities.

[RajD]

Folks,
A Mig 29K(if I'm not mistaken) ambling majestically almost by the side of my flight approaching from taxiway to the main runway at Vizag this morning, besides two more parked in the distance. It made my day!
Regards.

[Sagar G]

but you need to keep in mind HAL is the only manufacturing unit of these Dorniers and there is a great demand for them for different needs. an improved Dornier will only consolidate HAL's hold on the market. besides the knowhow is being offered at 'no cost' with committments for new buys. why should it be lost?

Pragnya in your enthusiasm for this project you have misread what is actually on offer free of cost it's not the "know how" but

RUAG would provide all the technical assistance at no cost

There is a world of difference between the two things. What EADS is doing for LCA Navy is the same thing w.r.t what is here on offer for "free" and one of the reason why it is on offer for "free" is

Mr Schilliger told India Strategic recently pointing out that it will help RUAG reduce its European prices by around $ 2 million/ aircraft.

Because HAL is the only manufacturer of the aircraft, now if HAL chooses to dump the project and refuses this offer I am pretty sure that $ 2 million saving will become either zero or run in negative. Starting a production line back home will cost too dear according to themselves and neither starting a new production line in another country is feasible given the savings they are targeting and I'am not even considering the pains of doing the same.

learning may not be substantial but it helps still.

Helps in what ??? Running the cash register ??? Is that the only thing which is important ???

let me give an example - IJT Sitara was designed with Larzac engine but when they realised it was underpowered, an adhoc request was made to the russians to design AL55I and as can be seen now HAL is struggling with a chain of issues - mods needed for the change of engine (whose reliability is also in question), aerodynamic part, weight penalty etc..

This example makes no sense with what I asked for.

now even in the Dornier NG too there is an engine change but the mods knowhow etc will come from RUAG which will give lot of inputs/insights to the HAL engineers. i concede this is not an apple to apple comparison but the insights gained in one can be 'variably' adopted to other programmes by competent engineers IMO.

besides Karan M has already pointed out the other gains.

You are again misusing the word "know how" without having the knowledge what "know how" we will get and Karan pointed to the same thing that you are talking about, his response is missing the authority which he usually has pointing out that yes these technologies will be gained by signing on this deal. Both him and you are hoping that we will get some "know how" from this. Let's see the new technologies in NG version,

The new generation Dornier 228 has features like state-of-the-art avionics and communication systems, Universal UNS-1 digital glass cockpit with four 5x7in (13x18cm) Multifunction Displays (MFDs) featuring electronic instrument displays, better engines, longer range, better payload, new landing gear design and five-bladed propellers to name a few.

What has been "offered" to HAL,

Leinauer says his company has offered these upgrades to HAL. “We offer them (HAL) the upgrade to the achieved standard – yes. It can be done at any time. They can fit the new cockpit, they can fit the new avionics, they can fit the propellers. We are talking to them and this is something that definitely we want to do,” he says.

The European requirement is for the new Dornier 228 NG (Next Generation), which has more powerful engines, five-blade composite propellers, contemporary glass cockpit and other gadgets for safety and both fuel and operational efficiency.

All I see here is them supplying us the new NG technologies without any talk of ToT but free "technical assistance".

net, Dornier NG will bring in lot of business which can help other HAL programmes indirectly and improve manufacturing processes.

I don't disagree with the business part but ask undeniable proof for the second one i.e. "improve manufacturing processes" given that they are offering "free technical assistance" and I don't remember the last time any kind of technology was given to India for free.

to the 'bolded' - the difference is while the one you are speaking of (SU 30MKI) is 'purely' for our own needs but the Dornier NG would be for the global market (apart from domestic needs).

rest of your point only emphasises what i/Karan M are trying to say - anything that helps needs to be imbibed which will only help both HAL and industry at large, in the long term.

I was talking of LCA !!!! When did we set up production line for Su 30 (MKI) on our own ??? Russia helped us there.

What I ask is still the same that, what new we are going to learn from this ??? Will that new be good enough to help our aviation industry ??? All that has been posted or said till now point to nothing of that sorts.

HAL has been earning it's money by license manufacturing all these years. If there was aviation business to be learned by license manufacturing then HAL should have been at top of the business no ??? But all these years of license manufacturing didn't teach us that setting up a production line itself is a technology itself. Ultimately an SDRE programme brought us that realisation. If HAL gets a deal which says that half of the aircrafts supplied will have Indian manufactured and developed avionics and other gadgets or we will get ToT of some technologies going into NG then I will agree that yes this deal is good for our industry. Otherwise it's the same old thing rehashed and resold in a new package.

[pankajs]

India needs to develop sensors to keep aircraft combat-ready

To ensure military aircraft are fit for combat operations any time, India has to develop sensor technology with condition monitoring system as a vital part of their maintenance, a top defence scientist said Friday.

"We need to develop sensor technology to ensure military aircraft are not grounded longer for want of condition monitoring system in servicing and maintaining them, as we cannot be importing sensors every time we have new or more aircraft," Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac) director-general and chief executive K. Tamilmani said at a defence conference here.

Condition monitoring (CM) is a major component of predictive maintenance. It is also a process of monitoring a parameter of condition in machinery like vibration or temperature to identify any change, which indicates an imminent fault or defect.

Highlighting the significance of sensor-based condition monitoring of aircraft, its subsystems and engines, Tamilmani said the process was relevant for multiple reasons, including the operational fitness and extension of their lifespan.

"Condition monitoring is a critical part of fleet maintenance and servicing for optimal utilisation of aircraft and determines their longevity. It reduces the lifecycle management cost of operational fleet and minimise delays in repairs and overhauling," he said at the 'National Conference on Condition Monitoring'.

The two-day conference has been organised by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) of the state-run Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Condition Monitoring Society of India (CMSI), based at Vishakhapatnam in Andhra Pradesh.

Lauding commercial airlines like Jet Airways for condition monitoring of its passenger aircraft fleet and ensuring over 99 percent maintenance in its daily operations, Tamilmani said in contrast about 40 percent of Russian-made Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter jets in the Indian Air Force combat fleet remain grounded for want of condition monitoring and serviceability.

"About 40 percent (116 aircraft) of the 290 Sukhois are on ground due to maintenance and service issues. If the operational fitness of the Sukhoi fleet is increased to 70-80 percent from 60 percent, the air force will be able to save a lot and ensure the fighter jets are not on ground longer than required," Tamilmani said, stressing on the importance of condition monitoring.

With each Sukhoi costing Rs.400 crore, grounding 116 of the total fleet will mean fighters valued at Rs.46,400 crore are on ground instead of being in flying condition all the time.

"I hope DRDO and its research centres such as Aeronautical Development Agency and Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), which are involved in the design and development of Tejas, the light combat aircraft (LCA) over the last two decades, will develop sensor technology to ensure their condition monitoring after the fighters are inducted into the IAF fleet," Tamilmani noted.

CMSI president V. Bhujanga Rao said the greatest advantage of condition monitoring was its ability to alert the user about the impending failure after detecting changes in the respective parameters of any aircraft or aero engine or any sub-systems.

"Condition monitoring systems estimate the condition of a machine from sensor measurements. It gives clues to estimate life or degradation overtime in terms of a machine's life cycle management," he said.

[nachiket]

About 40 percent (116 aircraft) of the 290 Sukhois are on ground due to maintenance and service issues

That is a nice trick when the IAF has received only about 160 Sukhois till now.

[Sagar G]

Condition monitoring (CM) is a major component of predictive maintenance. It is also a process of monitoring a parameter of condition in machinery like vibration or temperature to identify any change, which indicates an imminent fault or defect.

I think the aircraft equivalent is "Structural Health Monitoring" (SHM) for which experiments have already been done on Nishant.

Further, CSIR-NAL, DRDO-ADE and IMOD (Israeli Ministry of Defense) jointly conducted flight trials on UAV Nishant on October 28, 2010 at the Kolar Airfield in which the Structural Health Monitoring (SHM) technology of CSIR-NAL using fibre optic sensors was successfully demonstrated. This technology would be useful for the monitoring of structural health parameters of the UAV in-flight (Figs. 7a, b, and c). This was indeed a moment to reckon with, as, perhaps, this was the first flight trial of an on-board SHM system on any UAV in the world.

From NAL 2010-11 annual report.

[Karan M]

SagarG, please summarize your objections in 1-2 paras, it would help to read them and understand your basic queries. Otherwise, looking through the line by line posts becomes pretty hard. Also it comes across as a bit aggressive as versus being a collegial debate.

There are two issues here, what does HAL gain in terms of technology transfer and second, the business sense of the deal.

From the first, if you look at the prior Dornier program, it helped us in the Jaguar production. HAL leveraged the manufacturing processes and infrastructure for the latter. That apart, even if we cannot do that today (since the latest fighters might come with even better tech), the second point may still be valid.

That it helps HAL to join the export bandwagon and make some money off of it. RUAG if it supports HAL in making the latest Do228 version, and that goes worldwide does many things for HAL, it gives HAL a cash cow which it can sustain for several years (making money off MRO activities, sustainment). Typically, these activities have been done by western firms, which excel in the relationship building, political, and marketing activities as well. RuAG can get these done (the question is what % cut they take) and get business to HAL, plus link it up with the other tech providers (engines, cockpit tech, management systems etc). Systems integration is not a bad place to be at. If HAL makes good money off this deal, it stands that much more on its own feet, which is a big requirement for a company which has to otherwise depend purely on GOI orders. Of course, HAL will have to judge whether this deal actually makes business sense. The risk there is they buy into overly optimistic business projections and end up investing in tech /infrastructure which they don't get deals out of. That's always the risk one has to take and only HAL can judge that or make that case to MOD (if they have to).

[Sagar G]

Karan M my questions is still the same whether we will learn something good enough from this deal which will ultimately result making HAL/our aviation industry strong ??? I totally buy the business sense it's a no-brainer. But is that what all matters and since you agree that we have come a lot far since 80's shall we still be only considering license manufacturing and being happy with it ??? Like I said before shouldn't HAL be pitching for a more Indian involvement in the NG programme by asking for sourcing of Indian developed and made avionics in atleast half of the orders ??? ToT must also be brought on the table as I sense that HAL has an upperhand here.

I replied line by line since there was a lot in between each paras and the post looks big since I also quoted from the links posted. I wasn't being aggressive but will keep your advice in mind and try to coalescence as much as I can.

[Karan M]

Thanks for taking my words in a positive spirit.

shouldn't HAL be pitching for a more Indian involvement in the NG programme by asking for sourcing of Indian developed and made avionics in atleast half of the orders ??? ToT must also be brought on the table as I sense that HAL has an upperhand here.

Remember, this is an aircraft being pitched for international customers who are used to "proven" suppliers. As a result of which most civilian/multi-purpose aircraft, the world over rely on a handful of avionics suppliers - companies like Thales, Rockwell Collins etc. who have proven solutions which also have a long history in operations worldwide. This is the same strategy employed by the Chinese for their CATIC programs (C919 etc) and the Russians (SSJ). What the DO-228 NG is (to my understanding) is taking a proven platform (basic Dornier) and upgrading it to the latest tech quickly and getting it on the market asap.
Hence my point that the margins HAL makes in system integration (after considering capex costs, cut to RuAG etc) will/should ultimately drive the deal, and that is very dependent on whether RuAGs proposal is realistic (about market potential).

[Karan M]

About 40 percent (116 aircraft) of the 290 Sukhois are on ground due to maintenance and service issues

That is a nice trick when the IAF has received only about 160 Sukhois till now.

I suspect Mr Tamilmani is using the standard 60% figure which applied to the earlier MiGs that India used to procure, and that figure was used by our intrepid journalist and averaged across total number of Sukhois to be procured. The reason I say this, is because the Sukhois do have a lot of BITE built into their avionics LRUs and other systems. Besides which both the EF and Su-30MKI also use the same South African condition monitoring suite.

[Austin]

IAF chief nervous over biggest defence deal

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 13111.html

Three months before he hangs up his flying boots, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne has expressed nervousness and uncertainty for the first time over the country's largest-ever military contract currently under negotiation: the $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for 126 French-built Rafale fighters.

Browne, who has expressed consistent optimism that a deal would be signed by the end of 2013, has struck his first note of anxiousness, no longer willing to put a time-frame to the deal, providing perhaps the clearest indication that it could be delayed.

"We have no back-up plan. If the MMRCA deal isn't signed, there will be a rapid decline in fighter numbers between 2017 and 22. It is imperative that the deal is signed quickly," Browne said at his annual press conference on Friday.

The IAF celebrates its 81st Air Force Day on October 8.

"Negotiations on the MMRCA are still on. Cannot place a timeline on when the deal will be signed. If the deal is delayed till next year, the first aircraft will arrive only in 2017," the chief said.

Over the past 18 months, the Chief has consistently sounded hopeful, assured that the deal would be signed variously by early 2013, mid-2013 and end 2013. For the first time, he doesn't sound so sure anymore.

The sudden death on Wednesday of Arun Kumar Bal, Ministry of Defence's pointsperson on acquisitions and specifically the MMRCA deal, is tragic, and a major setback to the deal, since he was fully in control of the acquisition, said Browne.

Bal had suffered a massive heart attack earlier this week near his Delhi residence.

[Sagar G]

Thanks for taking my words in a positive spirit.

shouldn't HAL be pitching for a more Indian involvement in the NG programme by asking for sourcing of Indian developed and made avionics in atleast half of the orders ??? ToT must also be brought on the table as I sense that HAL has an upperhand here.

Remember, this is an aircraft being pitched for international customers who are used to "proven" suppliers. As a result of which most civilian/multi-purpose aircraft, the world over rely on a handful of avionics suppliers - companies like Thales, Rockwell Collins etc. who have proven solutions which also have a long history in operations worldwide. This is the same strategy employed by the Chinese for their CATIC programs (C919 etc) and the Russians (SSJ). What the DO-228 NG is (to my understanding) is taking a proven platform (basic Dornier) and upgrading it to the latest tech quickly and getting it on the market asap.
Hence my point that the margins HAL makes in system integration (after considering capex costs, cut to RuAG etc) will/should ultimately drive the deal, and that is very dependent on whether RuAGs proposal is realistic (about market potential).

But saar look at the level of local industry involvement in both the examples you gave, here other than license manufacturing (and keeping the cash register running) I don't see any whiff of any kind of technology coming to India which is my biggest grouse with this deal.

[Karan M]

But saar look at the level of local industry involvement in both the examples you gave, here other than license manufacturing (and keeping the cash register running) I don't see any whiff of any kind of technology coming to India which is my biggest grouse with this deal.

Those are de novo programs with money spent like water. Obviously, local industry involvement will be more. Even so, they had to rope in these international suppliers of cockpit systems, avionics, engines, actuators etc.

Technology is not just gizmos. Its also processes, certification methods, integration knowledge, best practises including working with a global supply chain. If HAL gets that exposure from this deal, thats a plus. RuAG has a good rep.

Not all deals will bring subsystem technology in. Some will be system integration level. That is also important.

Till date HAL has been living off of Indian Govt. To become more independent, it has to diversify and learn how to do business in a competitive market. That is good for it, good for India.

[vasu raya]

IAF chief nervous over biggest defence deal

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 13111.html

Three months before he hangs up his flying boots, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne has expressed nervousness and uncertainty for the first time over the country's largest-ever military contract currently under negotiation: the $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for 126 French-built Rafale fighters.

Browne, who has expressed consistent optimism that a deal would be signed by the end of 2013, has struck his first note of anxiousness, no longer willing to put a time-frame to the deal, providing perhaps the clearest indication that it could be delayed.

"We have no back-up plan. If the MMRCA deal isn't signed, there will be a rapid decline in fighter numbers between 2017 and 22. It is imperative that the deal is signed quickly," Browne said at his annual press conference on Friday.

The IAF celebrates its 81st Air Force Day on October 8.

"Negotiations on the MMRCA are still on. Cannot place a timeline on when the deal will be signed. If the deal is delayed till next year, the first aircraft will arrive only in 2017," the chief said.

Over the past 18 months, the Chief has consistently sounded hopeful, assured that the deal would be signed variously by early 2013, mid-2013 and end 2013. For the first time, he doesn't sound so sure anymore.

The sudden death on Wednesday of Arun Kumar Bal, Ministry of Defence's pointsperson on acquisitions and specifically the MMRCA deal, is tragic, and a major setback to the deal, since he was fully in control of the acquisition, said Browne.

Bal had suffered a massive heart attack earlier this week near his Delhi residence.

LCA was designed as a replacement for Mig-21 and was envisioned to fit into the same hangars, now Chabua which was hosting Mig-21 squads so far is being upgraded to handle the much larger MKIs, so was there ever a real need to limit the size of the LCA?

[aharam]

LCA was designed as a replacement for Mig-21 and was envisioned to fit into the same hangars, now Chabua which was hosting Mig-21 squads so far is being upgraded to handle the much larger MKIs, so was there ever a real need to limit the size of the LCA?

The main reason for limiting the size is to build an agile light fighter. While thrust matters, thrust to weight ratio, wing loading and the fundamental ability of an aircraft to hold on to energy are far more important. That's the reason to limit size and correspondingly weight. Hangar sizing is secondary - while good, it is never the primary consideration and was certainly not the reason to limit the LCA profile. Make it much bigger than it is, and it ends up the dead zone between light and medium categories, with a corresponding requirement for 1.5 engines, admittedly rather less than ideal

Cheers
Aharam

[aharam]

LCA was designed as a replacement for Mig-21 and was envisioned to fit into the same hangars, now Chabua which was hosting Mig-21 squads so far is being upgraded to handle the much larger MKIs, so was there ever a real need to limit the size of the LCA?

Usually the sequence here goes as follows: mission creep -> heavier loading, increased weight -> underpowered engine, blame engineering design -> look for different engine with greater thrust -> redesign airframe to accommodate new engine -> oooh look at the spare thrust we have -> mission creep.


Cheers
Aharam

[vasu raya]

^^^

Thanks aharam, isn't the F-16's engine technically a 1.5 engine when compared to many other single engined fighters? maybe it all goes back to the availability of the engine

In the context of spare thrust, with the new engine can the Tejas supercruise? assuming its typically loaded with two drop tanks seen on many outstation flights or maybe the Mk2 internalizes that additional amount of fuel.

[ramana]

IAF chief is saying if Rafale is not acquired he is up the creek with out a paddle.

I guess we should all clap for AKA for being the nonRaksha Mantri.

Great job in out Heroding Krishna Menon!!!

[ramana]

Check Hamlet if one wants to know what out Herod means!!!

Philip not you.

Any way good for one to know the classics.

[Philip]

Igzackly! I did wonder at the strange coincidence about him being the Deaf Min.at a time of crisis with China just as KM was. The dear Lord help us if the sh@t hits the fan !

Ps , did you see the part in the print media where the ACM wants the IAF to build its own aircraft notvdepending upon HAL?

[ramana]

He might have a point. During WWII the US had many Ordnance plants owned by the services and run by Contractors.

In a way the shipbuilding docks are Navy run plants. Why not IAF run factories to have accountability?

I truly endorse him.

Is he from Coonor?

[pragnya]

Sagar G,

would appreciate if you can quote 'relevant' part in full and respond. breaking it into sentences and making it mean completely different from what it was actually meant to be and then going on to respond to them and 'demanding' answers - neither makes any sense nor makes it easier for people to answer.

for ex - read what i wrote in my first post

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1520406

^^^

intriguing that HAL has been 'mum' on the RUAG offer (here and here) of Dornier 228NG version considering RUAG says they do not want to charge for it and commit themselves to a buy of atleast 6 aircrafts/yr. it is a win win for both. RUAG gains by selling them at 'reduced' price while HAL - being the sole licence producer moves up the chain.

the gains otherwise are worthy - 25% more powerful engines, weight savings, upgraded glass cockpit.

it may also be possible HAL is waiting for the test programme of Do 228NG - which is underway, reaches maturity so they can strike a deal.

now tell me - in essence - what is 'different' that you are saying here -

Because HAL is the only manufacturer of the aircraft, now if HAL chooses to dump the project and refuses this offer I am pretty sure that $ 2 million saving will become either zero or run in negative. Starting a production line back home will cost too dear according to themselves and neither starting a new production line in another country is feasible given the savings they are targeting and I'am not even considering the pains of doing the same.

also when i said 'knowhow' at no cost - as told by the RUAG rep - isn't it obvious that it means technical assistance/TOT or whatever you want to call it?? if not what else is it?? how will HAL build otherwise?? as for CAPEX, it remains to be seen whether they are sharing the cost or not.

then you go on to ask me -

Helps in what ??? Running the cash register ??? Is that the only thing which is important ???

when i answered it in both my posts but is 'cash register' something that can be wished away?? but then you say this -

I don't disagree with the business part but ask undeniable proof for the second one i.e. "improve manufacturing processes" given that they are offering "free technical assistance" and I don't remember the last time any kind of technology was given to India for free.

see.

apart the bolded, i have already answered the rest but...

i gave an IJT analogy - 'i conceded too' that it is not an apple, apple comparison - but noted how expertise gained in one can be harnessed (natural IMO) in some other programme but again instead of reading it in context, you split the paragraph and take off tangentially!!

All I see here is them supplying us the new NG technologies without any talk of ToT but free "technical assistance".

without TOT for licence building how was HAL building the vanilla version so far?? the NG version is an upgrade which will only bring more business and yes, whether you call it technical assistance or TOT it will come. how else HAL will build the NG version?? what is the confusion?? besides the upgrade is substantial if you look at it - longer range, better payload, new landing gear design among others. not to be wished away at all considering there is a good demand from countries with smaller navies/countries with smaller coast lines.

lastly, i accept it is my mistake that i overlooked your sentence regarding LCA and mistook it for SU 30MKI 'because' we were talking about licence building/TOT etc.. which does not apply to the LCA.

and as to EADS offering 'free' technical assistance, can you link me to relevant news??

[pragnya]

The reason I say this, is because the Sukhois do have a lot of BITE built into their avionics LRUs and other systems. Besides which both the EF and Su-30MKI also use the same South African condition monitoring suite.

just an add on -

DIAT is developing a health monitoring system for LCA mark 2.

[arijitkm]

IAF rejects ‘extravagant’ HAL basic trainer aircraft project

Pushing for the procurement of a foreign basic trainer aircraft for its rookie pilots, IAF today, however, rejected a similar indigenous plane being developed by HAL saying public money cannot be wasted on such "extravagant" projects.

The statement by Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne at the IAF Day press conference comes against the backdrop of a tussle between IAF and the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd over whether to procure an imported basic trainer aircraft or to develop it indigenously.

The IAF is in favour of procuring the imported Pilatus PC-7 basic trainer aircraft while the defence PSU wants to develop the aircraft indigenously.

"IAF is very clear that there has to be only one trainer. We cannot have these extravagant projects. If we have two types of trainers, it costs extra expenditure on infrastructure, training, simulators and maintenance. It is all public money, you cannot waste it on having two to three types of projects," Browne said.

He said IAF's training module was already set and the force did not want any complications to crop up in it with different sets of aircraft.

Browne said the PSU was not providing the force with what it actually required in the form of the Intermediate Jet Trainer, a decade-old project which is facing delays.

He said that the life of the Kiran Mk II aircraft was three or four more years and its replacement had to be found very soon.
.......

[chackojoseph]

S Anandan writes about Project Ashok Comes ailing into Naval Aircraft Yard, and flies back fighting fit

Speaks about Naval Aircraft Yard in Kochi.

[Sagar G]

Sagar G,

would appreciate if you can quote 'relevant' part in full and respond. breaking it into sentences and making it mean completely different from what it was actually meant to be and then going on to respond to them and 'demanding' answers - neither makes any sense nor makes it easier for people to answer.

If you take a look at my reply then I haven't broken anything in your reply and taken it out of context. I have quoted you in the same way you replied para for para, line for line. You didn't understand my post and are now lecturing about "how to reply". Answers will be demanded if you make claims if you can't provide answers then don't make claims, delivering sermons about S.O.P. for replying isn't going to help so instead focus on giving a good reply.

now tell me - in essence - what is 'different' that you are saying here -

The thing here is that you have ironically done the same thing which you lectured me not to do i.e. breaking it into sentences and making it mean completely different from what it was actually meant to be. Read my reply again the part you quote and did an == with what you said before is actually in continuation of the above two quotes from the articles posted here. In that I have tried to show why technical assistance is being provided "free of cost". RUAG is not doing any charity here.

also when i said 'knowhow' at no cost - as told by the RUAG rep - isn't it obvious that it means technical assistance/TOT or whatever you want to call it?? if not what else is it?? how will HAL build otherwise?? as for CAPEX, it remains to be seen whether they are sharing the cost or not.

Know How is a term that I have seen associated with ToT not with "technical assistance" i.e. they will guide you with whatever new design changes have happened and tell you what has to be done w.r.t. manufacturing so as to implement those design changes since this isn't our design nor an indigenous programme. We are only license manufacturing and LCA experience has clearly shown that license manufacturing adds exactly a big Zero w.r.t. knowledge enhancement.

then you go on to ask me -

Helps in what ??? Running the cash register ??? Is that the only thing which is important ???

when i answered it in both my posts but is 'cash register' something that can be wished away?? but then you say this -

I don't disagree with the business part but ask undeniable proof for the second one i.e. "improve manufacturing processes" given that they are offering "free technical assistance" and I don't remember the last time any kind of technology was given to India for free.

see.

apart the bolded, i have already answered the rest but...

You seemed to have missed the most important part of those questions which I have blued for your convenience so take another shot at replying and where did you provide "undeniable proof" for improvement in manufacturing process which will add some valuable knowledge ???

i gave an IJT analogy - 'i conceded too' that it is not an apple, apple comparison - but noted how expertise gained in one can be harnessed (natural IMO) in some other programme but again instead of reading it in context, you split the paragraph and take off tangentially!!

What !!!! Go take a look at your own post. What you said then makes no sense with what you are claiming now. Had you said that the expertise gained during LCA helped us in IJT programme then that would have been in sync with what you claim now instead you talked about IJT engine and how HAL royally effed up the IJT programme.

without TOT for licence building how was HAL building the vanilla version so far?? the NG version is an upgrade which will only bring more business and yes, whether you call it technical assistance or TOT it will come. how else HAL will build the NG version?? what is the confusion?? besides the upgrade is substantial if you look at it - longer range, better payload, new landing gear design among others. not to be wished away at all considering there is a good demand from countries with smaller navies/countries with smaller coast lines.

This is ridiculous you haven't understood my ToT question at all I suggest please read my exchanges with Karan M and then if you have proper answers for the same give me a reply otherwise we are wasting each other's time.

and as to EADS offering 'free' technical assistance, can you link me to relevant news??

Ab to hadd ho gaya I gave that example to point out that what EADS is doing is also technical assistance but we are paying them for obvious reasons but since this NG Dornier isn't our design so RUAG saying that they will provide technical assistance "free of cost" when HAL is there only hope of manufacturing it at reduced cost is laughable.

If you are still confused regarding what is my point then I strongly advise you to read exchanges between Karan and me on this page.

[Sagar G]

"IAF is very clear that there has to be only one trainer. We cannot have these extravagant projects. If we have two types of trainers, it costs extra expenditure on infrastructure, training, simulators and maintenance. It is all public money, you cannot waste it on having two to three types of projects," Browne said.

Iron E

When is Mr. Browne retiring ???

[pragnya]

If you take a look at my reply then I haven't broken anything in your reply and taken it out of context. I have quoted you in the same way you replied para for para, line for line. You didn't understand my post and are now lecturing about "how to reply". Answers will be demanded if you make claims if you can't provide answers then don't make claims, delivering sermons about S.O.P. for replying isn't going to help so instead focus on giving a good reply.

Sagar G sir, you win.

i will stop lecturing you from now on and i promise i will not deliver sermons too.

[Sagar G]

And one more mujahid takes the higher road, Sigh !!!!!

[kmkraoind]

IAF hopes to build its own combat aircraft within 20 years - Dailymail.co.uk

he Indian Air Force (IAF) dreams of developing its own combat aircraft in 20 years. At least that is what IAF chief NAK Browne hopes, given the fact that the Air Force has acquired significant expertise in overhaul and upgrade of aircraft.

"The 14 base repair depots (BRDs) have grown in both capability and capacity in a manner that the day is not far when it will be able to develop its own medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA)," Browne said at a press conference in Delhi on Friday.

While the IAF has successfully upgraded Russian MiG-29 fighters at its Nashik-based Ozar facility, the BRD in Chandigarh is the state-of-the-art facility for overhaul of Mi-17 choppers - the backbone of helicopter fleet.

Similarly, the base repair depot in Kanpur is working on An-32 transport aircraft and Viper engines used in Kiran intermediate jet trainers.

"I hope it's a dream but 20 years from now we should produce MMRCA kind of aircraft," Browne said.

The remark is significant as India has struggled to develop its own aircraft over the years. The LCA project has been going on for several decades, and it is not before two years that the homegrown Tejas aircraft will be ready for induction into the IAF.

At a time when the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which does all the licensed production of foreign aircraft for the IAF, is unable to absorb technology to the satisfaction of the Air Force, the BRDs are carrying out work more efficiently.

Air Force officials said the state-of-the-art facilities developed at these facilities will prove to be a major strength in the coming years.

The HAL's wastage rate is at least five times that of other aircraft manufacturers in the world, they said. The IAF is maintaining a large and divergent fleet ranging from Jaguars and Mirages to ageing transporters and helicopters.

The maintenance of these aircraft have been a challenge for the Air Force. The IAF is inducting several new platforms in the coming years, including 126 French Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft for which talks are underway.

Wondering our MSM has not reported these.

[Austin]

IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgraded MiG-21s till 2025

Just ahead of its 81st anniversary on October 8, the IAF has virtually sounded the red-alert over its fast-dwindling number of fighter squadrons. Confronted with the government's slow decision-making, fund crunches and Hindustan Aeronautics' sluggish performance, the force is now being forced to further stagger the already long-delayed retirement of its ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s.

The grim situation can be gauged from the fact that IAF will continue to fly its 110 upgraded MiG-21 "Bisons" — of the total 260 MiG-21s still in its combat fleet — till 2025. Making this startling admission, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal (ACM) NAK Browne on Friday said, "We are authorized 42 fighter squadrons but, at present, we are much below that."

Though the primacy of airpower in shaping battles is undisputed, and both China and Pakistan are fast bolstering their fleets, the IAF is down to just 34 fighter squadrons (each has 16-18 jets) as of now.

So, even as plans are underway to upgrade airbases and advanced landing grounds for both the western and eastern fronts, there is a crippling shortage of modern fighters that can be deployed there.

With MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons slated for progressive phasing out over the 12th and 13th Plan periods (2012-22), IAF is desperate to ensure its long-standing new fighter induction plans are not derailed any further.

The topmost priority is the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighter jets, even as it will progressively induct the remaining 100 Sukhoi-30MKIs of the 272 such fighters contracted from Russia for around $12 billion.

The long-drawn MMRCA technical and commercial evaluation process began in August 2007, with the French Rafale fighter finally emerging the winner in January, 2012. But the contract — under which the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest manufactured under licence by HAL over six years — is nowhere near being inked.

"The MMRCA and the first two squadrons of Tejas light combat aircraft (the indigenous fighter project sanctioned in 1983 but still to fully fructify) are very critical for us to maintain our deterrence capability. Otherwise, our force-levels will go down rapidly," said ACM Browne.

With the country headed for general elections, it's highly unlikely the MMRCA contract will be concluded in the ongoing fiscal. But the IAF chief said, "There is no back-up plan. The MMRCA is the only option, and it is highly doable. If we sign it by next year, the first MMRCA should come to us by 2017. We cannot delay it any further."

Even the long-term plan for co-developing the fifth-generation fighter aircraft with Russia is in the doldrums. It will take at least another year to ink the $11 billion "full design R&D contract" for the futuristic fighter, admitted ACM Browne.

As per the earlier timeline, IAF was looking to induct over 200 of these swing-role stealth fighters from 2022 onwards. But that may not be possible now. India will eventually spend around $35 billion on this project over the next 15-20 years, with each jet to be subsequently produced costing over $100 million.

[Austin]

Looking at IAF chief statement on MMRCA he is hinting at next year with first MMRCA ( outright purchased ) will come from France in 2017.

Next year would mean next FY and that coincides with the new GOI .......if this is the Kangress lead UPA then things will be easier for IAF and they can get this done quickly in few months.

If this is new GOI then things might get further delayed they will reopen the file and vet the process in the name of transparency.

Dassult will have to revise the price too if this gets delayed further as the price quoted was valid for specific time frame.

[member_23360]

IAF to build its own trainer aircraft: Air Marshal Kanakaraj

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 686_1.html

[fanne]

This is good step, now only if he have few more players (preferable private players - Tata and Ambanis have shown interests).

[NRao]

Great step. But, how is supposed to work? Any ideas?

[Surya]

oh boy

has Vina seen this one

[Karan M]

Hope the IAF succeeds. Any competition to wake up HAL is a good thing.

Hope its not another Hunky and Tuffy case...connoisseurs will recognise those names..

[Philip]

This going to be some unique world record,when the MIG-21s serve upto 2025! They will then have completed more than 60+ years in service with just one air force. Truly the MOD should've picked up on Shiv's and my idea over a decade ago ,LCA delays well known and anticipated by those in the know at that time,that the best replacement for the MIG-21s were...."new MIG-21s"! Had we built another 100+ MIG-21s and upgraded them to Bison std.,we would not be in such a pressure cooker to get the LCA out without cutting corners.The Bisons have proved themselves to be annoying enemies to US warbirds in exercises extolling the virtues of its designers who I'm sure never imagined that the aircraft would serve for so long in a major frontline air force. The problem is still going to be nursing the Bisons to serve until then.We recently saw a report where IAF pilots were asked not to tax the Bisons too hard in training,etc.,due to the replacement crisis with the series production of the LCA still up in the air,or should one instead say very much on the ground.

The trainer fiasco where HAL is dumping a major share of FGFA development work instead wanting to concentrate on the HTT-40,itself a fledgling bird with much imported content,anything but a great indigenous accomplishment,that still hasn't flown is the height of profligacy and myopia.The current priority is getting the LCA into service and putting as many human resources working on the project in achieving this goal.Some time ago the IJT team was also tasked with FGFA work.The new vision of the IAF to get its own BRD's into becoming aircraft manufacturing units is a splendid one,they have the capacity to do so.The issues of quality of components will now be the responsibility of the IAF and HAL will get some truly tough competition.Getting the BRDs to licence manufacture the Pilatus as a first step would be welcome as we would be able to assess the IAF's capability before graduating onto larger more complex projects.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opi ... 210730.ece

Stuck at the basics of aircraft design
Anil Chopra

We could import basic training aircraft and release HAL resources to work on the next level.

The Indian Air Force needs to take a call on how it is to acquire a new set of trainer aircraft, balancing indigenisation concerns with practical considerations. There is a considerable degree of conceptual confusion here.

It took over a decade to decide on and acquire the Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT). The British Hawk Mk 132 finally entered service in the IAF in early 2008 for advanced jet training.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd built basic trainer HPT-32 was being used for initial training for years.

However, it had repeated engine failures. When two experienced instructors were killed in July 2009, it triggered the permanent grounding of the aircraft. India very correctly decided on a fast-track acquisition of the Basic Training Aircraft (BTA), selecting the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II from among five contenders.

The aircraft joined the IAF early this year. Some 75 aircraft have been contracted, with an option to buyg 38 more.

In 2009, it was decided that HAL would design and build 106 basic trainers. The ground position today is that after just displaying a mock-up at an Aero India exhibition, there is no viable design proposal by HAL. The issue of whether the remaining BTAs should be indigenously developed or procured from abroad came into the public domain after a report in the media implied that the IAF was trying to scuttle the development of the BTA by HAL. These articles indirectly pitted the Defence Ministry, the IAF and HAL against each other.
HAL-IAF connection

The fact is, the IAF is proud to fly indigenous aircraft. The IAF trained its pilots on HAL-built HT-2 aircraft till it was replaced by HPT-32 in 1984.

The IAF was also happy with the HAL-built Kiran jet trainer, an aircraft with which it flew its showcase aerobatics team, Surya Kiran.

The bulk of IAF’s inventory comprises HAL-produced aircraft. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), and the Medium Transport Aircraft (MTA) programmes are fully backed by the IAF.

Any attempt to bring about a rift between the IAF and HAL is neither reasonable nor in the national interest.

Aircraft take time to design, develop, produce or procure. The HAL Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) has also been running way behind schedule. Any further delay in the IJT may force the IAF temporarily into two-stage training with Pilatus and Hawk aircraft when the aging and overextended Kirans retire.[/b]

In this context, the time has come to take a call on further basic trainers.

The IAF has no choice but to seek more tried and tested Pilatus PC-7 Mk II.

Another issue is whether the IAF should have two different aircraft as its basic trainers. It would involve two sets of flying instructors, technical personnel, infrastructure, simulators, training aids, spare inventories, among other things. The duplication will cause significant extra expenditure.

On the other hand, a single type is better from the operational, maintenance and logistics point of view. If timely decisions are not taken, the IAF’s basic and intermediate training may get seriously hampered.

A large part of the yet to develop HAL basic trainers will have to be procured from abroad. We do not have expertise on turboprop engine, ejection seat, and a large number of other systems. Even the aircraft design itself is likely to be through foreign consultancy.

When many parts of the so-called indigenous aircraft are imported, as in this case, the cost will naturally be much higher than the imported variant.

The UK-built Hawk aircraft cost us Rs 87 crore vis-à-vis the HAL-built one at Rs 98 crore. The cost increase for indigenous Su-30s was much starker.

Operational logic

It may be in the national interest to licence-produce the PC-7 Mk II in India if numbers were to go up significantly.

The delivery time-frames to the IAF should remain non-negotiable. HAL could thus concentrate all design and development energies on the intermediate trainer without affecting the IAF’s training requirements.

People keep making repeated references to the navy’s control over dockyards and shipbuilding compared to the lack of IAF control over HAL’s activities. The IAF has a large number of base repair depots of its own which are engaged in overhauling, upgrading and assembling aircraft and aggregates.

These personnel are on IAF’s payroll. Spare capacity can easily take on licence production such as the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II. Man-hours saved could bring down costs substantially and allow HAL to concentrate on the IJT.

The repeated references to grounding of the HPT-32 fleet vis-à-vis not grounding the MiG-21 lack operational logic. One is a basic training aircraft flown by novice pilots, and the other an operational aircraft flying combat exercises.

The country requires some minimum deterrence and war fighting capability. While we await the LCA, surely we do not want the IAF to become smaller than its Pakistani counterpart overnight?

In this competitive world it has become common for the manufacturer who doesn’t get the contract to hire people to pull down the winner.

Having served on technical oversight committees, I can say the processes on this count are fairly streamlined.

All specification changes at all stages follow a proper logic, and are well documented and approved at various levels.

The HAL and IAF both function under the Ministry of Defence. The IAF is a near captive customer of HAL.

Strengthening the IAF’s presence in the HAL management at all levels should greatly improve both output and understanding. It is time to put the nation first and not let a good aircraft and IAF training be made hostage to extraneous issues.

(The author is a retired Air Marshal and former head of the IAF’s HR and Training.)

[merlin]

IAF wants to be more like Paki Army, get their paws into everything. What next - they also want to get into designing the aircraft apart from building it? Is that their mandate?

Completely don't support this move of theirs. Let them concentrate on defending the nation.

HAL does require a firm kick though - they urgently need to address the IAF's concerns to the satisfaction of the IAF.