Understanding Sikh History-1

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Dec 2011 04:52

I think Samrath ramdas met Guru Hargobind Singh ji and enquired about Saint wearing arms.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 02 Dec 2011 06:31

Guru Hargobind was the sixth Guru who decided to take up arms. He was the first Sikh guru to take up arms. He created the first militia force of 700. He organized wrestling bouts, guns/sword/arrows mock fights. He was attacked multiple times by Mughals., once even when he was marrying off his daughter., Mughals raided them. He was the first Sikh Guru that stood up in defiance., he was jailed in Gwalior fort (some say 2 years other say upto 10 years) along with 52 other Rajput prince's rounded up by mughals from around the India.

Jahangir got sick and somebody told him that the real reason of his sickness is the imprisonment of Sri Guru Hargobind ji. He order Guru to be freed., guru refused saying that he will only go if all these 52 kings are also freed. Jahangir ordered Princes who can touch the Guru's shoulder while coming out of the fort is allowed to go. Guru got a special dress made that had 52 "strings attached to his both shoulders and thus all 52 kings were freed from Gwalior. Guru Hargobind was as big a genius as big Guru Arjan Dev was (fifth Guru) martyred at Lahore.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 02 Dec 2011 06:40

Guru Arjan dev created Golden Temple at a lower ground to depict humility (as mosques and temples were constructed on higher ground), it also had 4 doors signifying open to all people.

Guru Hargobind created Akal Takht on a higher ground to depict the greatness of Supreme Nirankaar (God) Akal means "timeless/genderless/self emcompassing/ Takht means throne"

Guru Hargobind created the concept of Miri and Piri. Miri means "king like" or Soldiers like, Piri means "Saint like" or "Bhagat Like". The same concept was recreated by the 10th Guru when creating Khalsa calling it "Sant Sipahi" i.e. "Saint Soldier"

He revived the old Indian weapon of Khanda. He slayed his own childhood friend Shaista Khan who had joined Mughals and came to attack him.
It is said that when his sword hit Shaistan Khan it was so powerful that shaistan Khan was cut in half (single stroke) but Guru didn't let the sword touch the horse whose chest touched the ground.

Guru Hargobind had traveled all over India., He connected and made acquaintance with Kashmir Brahmins, Marathas, Bengalis and others. It was because of his reach that later 10th Guru Gobind got a huge congregation with people from all over India.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 03 Dec 2011 01:13

I have a honest question:

In Punjab, there are quite a few sects or Deras such Dera Sacha Sauda and Dera Sacha Akhand. A lot of the Sikhs regard them as heretics, and I suppose one can empathize since we have seen cases where the leaders of such Deras dress up as Sikh Gurus and claim to be their re-incarnation.

But it is also true that such Deras enjoy a lot of popular support, ranging in lakhs especially in the interior and villages of Punjab. Why is there such support for the Deras given the heresy? One reason I was given is that it is because these Deras are artificially supported by certain political parties to enable their vote back... How true is this explanation? Its a bit hard to believe that lakhs of people will be essentially heretics purely on the saying of some political party...

The other thing I have been told is that SGPC is dominated by Jat Sikhs, and this is one of the contributors to the rise of Deras. Is this true?

Innocent questions only, please dont jump on me , no intention of hurting feelings or malice.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 03 Dec 2011 01:59

Dera Sacha Sauda is based at Sirsa Haryana which is just beyond the border (punjab) from Mandi Dabwali, Kot Kapura, Malaut and Abohra. The southern area of punjab (from Ludhiana) which is called Malwa.

This belt is what was owned by "Patiala Rajas" who are Sidhu Jat Sikhs. Now the other end of this area (pakistan border) is what is the residence of Badal (Dhillon Jat of Badal village).

The person who runs Dera Sacha Sauda "BAba Ram Rahim Singh" is a Jat Sikh from Gursomondia village in Rajasthan’s Ganganagar district. This area in Rajasthan was created by Maharaja Ganga Singh of Rajasthan when he invited Sikhs from Punjab to do agriculture (after canal was created long time back during british time).

So the vast majority of people who follow baba ram rahim are from Haryana and southern Punjab and northern Rajasthan. They are not from Amritsar/Gurdaspur/Ferozepur/Jalandhar/Ludhiana.

some of the Deras are doing good stuff (but not baba ram rahim) for example

Radha Soamis (who read Guru Granth Sahib) are actively involve in many projects for education, healthcare, etc. They do not have political issues.

Nanaksar Dera is involve in things like planting trees, use of bio-gas, etc.

Most of the deras are involved in getting youth away from drugs/alcohol.

some are also doing infrastructure work like creating Bridges and Roads to their villages.

Only few deras like to divulge in politics and these are not doing any social work.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 03 Dec 2011 02:00

The problem with some of the deras is that they tell their disciple the wrong interpretation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and are involve in lots of illegal things.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 19 Jan 2012 13:52

X-post from Indian Interests thread.

Rony wrote:A old but very interesting article about the British strategy of dividing Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab.

A Lethal Cocktail Of Religion And Politics
Violence is just under the surface in Punjab where a divisive British legacy continues to thrive. The British supported the Tat Khalsa movement by insisting that only Khalsa Sikhs (those who sported the 5ks) could join the Army.

With the controversy over Dera Sacha Sauda leaders’s apparent imitation of the 10th Sikh Guru having died down it might be useful to know why a prosperous state like Punjab continues to erupt like this. This article recaps history of Punjab from the 1860’s to date, and includes a series of key events that have brought about the current situation.

Guru Gobind Singh started the Khalsa in 1699. According to tradition, its followers had to sport the five Ks i.e. Kesh-long hair, Kangha-comb, Kirpan-sword, Kara-steel bracelet, Kachcha-knickers. Long hair and turbans were supposed to protect faces and heads from sword cuts and lathi blows. The Kada was a reminder that Sikh spirit was strong and unbending. The Kacha was more suitable for fighting the Mughals in than the Dhotis and loose trousers of Muslims. The maximum numbers of Khalsa followers were Jats. Though others considered themselves Sikhs, they held back since they were not followers of the Khalsa.

Having experienced the strength of Sikh opposition during the Anglo-Sikh wars and grateful for the assistance received from Sikh princes during the Mutiny of 1857, the British realized that Sikhs could be an effective buffer between Afghanistan and India.

Therefore, British reduced the number of Bengali soldiers (involved in 1857 Mutiny) to be replaced by loyal Sikhs & Punjabi Muslims. As Veena Talwar wrote: "To prevent the sort of mutiny they experienced from sepoys in 1857, the British organized religiously segregated regimental units from the alleged martial races, Sikhs, Pathans, Rajputs etc. This severely restricted Hindus of other castes particularly Khatris (Punjabi form of Kshatriya), who had served in Maharaja Ranjit Singh's forces. Khatris (all Sikh Gurus were Khatris) were arbitrarily lumped together by the British as trading castes. Many families got around this artificially imposed caste barrier by raising one or more son as Sikhs, chiefly by having them adopt the name Singh and grow hair/beard to match". (Dowry Murder, the Imperial origins of a Cultural Crime).

Thus, the enlistment of Sikhs increased steeply. Joining the army was remunerative. Soldiers were well paid, given agricultural land and pension.

Around this time there was a fall in Sikh morale, stemmed by the Singh Sabha movement. Founded in 1873 it soon split into two. One, were Sanatani Sikhs who regarded the Panth as a special form of Hindu tradition. Two, were Tat (true) Khalsa, who believed that Sikhism was a different religion.

The British supported the Tat Khalsa movement by insisting only Khalsa Sikhs (those who sported the 5 Ks) could join the Army. A move to say Sikhs were not Hindus received an impetus in 1898 with Khan Singh Nabha’s book ‘Ham Hindu Nahin’, the passing of the Anand Marriage Act in 1909 as the only approved order for Sikh marriage and the insistence on the five Ks to distinguish Sikhs from Hindus.

It did not matter to the Tat Khalsa that the real name of Golden Temple is Hari Mandir and, “Of the 15,028 names of Gods that appear in the Adi Granth, Hari occurs over 8,000 times, Ram 2,533 times followed by Prabhu, Gopal, Govind and other Hindu names for the divine. The popular Sikh coinage Wah Guru appears only 16 times”. (Khushwant Singh).

After several decades, the Tat Khalsa emerged victorious. According to W. H. Mcleod, it ensured that “in 1905 idols were removed from the Harimandir”. (Historical Dictionary of Sikhism). Modern day Sikhism is a creation of this movement.

By about 1920, it was overtaken by the Akali Dal, a new political party that gave expression to the revived sense of Sikh identity. The Akalis entered into a dispute with the British for the control of Sikh Gurudwaras. Passing of the Sikh Gurudwaras Act in 1925 signalled their complete victory. The Act’s definition of a Sikh leant strongly towards the exclusivists Khalsa view.

To retain effective control over Punjab, the British drove a wedge between Jat and Khatris. They passed the Punjab Land Alienation Act of 1900, which created a favored, dominant, agriculturalist class and a non-agriculturists class. The former included Hindu & Sikh Jats, Muslim tribes and the latter Hindu Brahmins, Khatris and Banias. The Act made tribe and caste the basis of land ownership. British sought to anchor itself in Punjab by playing the distinctions between Hindu and Muslim while nurturing Muslim and Sikh Jats as loyal subjects.

In this manner, the British supported the Jat Sikhs who were the prime movers behind the Tat Khalsa movement.

The consequences were many. One, the birth of Akali Dal and its control over Gurudwaras heralded the tradition of mixing religion and politics. Control of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee is key to political power in Punjab. Two, it made Jats a powerful community. Three, it started a tradition of Khatris/Aroras making the first son a Sikh. Children of the Sikh son became Sikh and so on. Today, future generations of the same family having similar surnames, say Kohli, are known to the outside world as followers of two religions, Sikhism and Hinduism. Four, it created a divide between Jat and Khatri Sikhs such that the latter are called ‘Bhapa’, a term dismissively used by Jats to describe Khatris and Aroras. Five, “since Jat Sikhs consider themselves superior to others, non Jat Sikhs in the Indian Army never reveal their surnames for the fear of being ridiculed in the Sikh community”. Instead they suffix their first names with ‘Singh’.

Notwithstanding the fact that an Akali leader (1940-1960 period), Master Tara Singh was a co founder of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad in 1964, Punjab was quite successfully divided between Sikh and Hindu. During the agitation for Punjab, the divide widened. Those areas (inhabited mostly by Punjabi Hindus) which had a Hindi-speaking majority, were included in the state of Haryana.

Religion and politics got irrevocably intertwined in Punjab. Adept at using religion, the Akalis ensured the Congress was at the receiving end in the 1980s. Indira Gandhi believed, if you-can’t-beat-them-join-them. So the Congress propped up Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale to counter the Akalis, creating a monster in the process. What followed was killing of innocent Hindus and Sikhs.

Just like the Congress party’s propping up of Bhindrawale eventually resulted in Operation Blue Star and Indira Gandhi’s death, so also Pakistan’s support for terrorism in India and Afghanistan resulted in the attack on Lal Masjid.

Today, the Jat Sikhs are a very powerful community. Such is their clout that the UPA government is yet to implement an August 2004 Supreme Court ruling, which orders the construction of the Punjab portion of the Sutlej Yamuna Canal.

Whenever the supremacy of the Jat Sikhs is threatened, there could be violence. After the latest apex court order, Amarinder Singh said terrorism would return to Punjab if the order was implemented.

Mixing religion with politics was the British strategy. Has anything changed!

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 20 Jan 2012 07:36

I am sorry, the article you quote is a broken record of old hackneyed stereotypes. It mixes some facts & truths with shoddy lies & half truths.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 20 Jan 2012 22:14

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15480741

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 20 Jan 2012 22:20

surinder wrote:I am sorry, the article you quote is a broken record of old hackneyed stereotypes. It mixes some facts & truths with shoddy lies & half truths.

Can you delineate and separate out the truths and lies in the above?

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 20 Jan 2012 22:27

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Jan 2012 00:02

Sir Vir!! Let me try This whole quote is wrong

"According to tradition, its followers had to sport the five Ks i.e. Kesh-long hair, Kangha-comb, Kirpan-sword, Kara-steel bracelet, Kachcha-knickers. Long hair and turbans were supposed to protect faces and heads from sword cuts and lathi blows. The Kada was a reminder that Sikh spirit was strong and unbending. The Kacha was more suitable for fighting the Mughals in than the Dhotis and loose trousers of Muslims. The maximum numbers of Khalsa followers were Jats. Though others considered themselves Sikhs, they held back since they were not followers of the Khalsa. "

1. The five Ks have nothing whatsoever to do with this above, they are to remember that
A. One has to be away from Lust or Kaam and towards Truth i.e. Satt.
B. One has to be away from Anger or Krodh and towards contentment i.e. Santokh.
C. One has to be away from Greed or Lobh and towards Compassion i.e. Daya.
D. One has to be away from materialism or moh and towards Dharam i.e. Righteousness
E. One has to be away from Ego or Ahankaar and towards Patience i.e. Sabr.

2. Jats are about 40% of punjab (both pakjab and real punjab) which puts them in majority among sikhs.
The reason for creating Khalsa was to make them all same without any caste/creed or color
The first five Khalsa were
1. Daya Ram - a Khatri from Lahore(punjab) became Daya Singh.
2. Dharam das - a Jat from Hastinapur (haryana) became Dharam Singh.
3. Mukham Chand - a Tailor from Dwarka (gujrat) became Mukham singh.
4. Himmat Rai - A water carrier from Jagannath Puru (Orissa) became Himmat Singh.
5. Sahib Chand - A Barber from Bidar (Karnatka) became Sahib Singh.

So as you can see they from all the castes/creeds/cultures/languages representing India.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Jan 2012 00:06

"
The British supported the Tat Khalsa movement by insisting only Khalsa Sikhs (those who sported the 5 Ks) could join the Army. A move to say Sikhs were not Hindus received an impetus in 1898 with Khan Singh Nabha’s book ‘Ham Hindu Nahin’, the passing of the Anand Marriage Act in 1909 as the only approved order for Sikh marriage and the insistence on the five Ks to distinguish Sikhs from Hindus.
"
This again is totally wrong. The Sikh regiment and the Sikh light infantry was and has been open for Khalsa Sikhs since the time of Ranjit Singh (original enlisting). Even French Generals Ventura and Allard had to grow long hair in order to lead artillery supporting Sikh Khalsa Army.

After 1849 when Sikh army was disbanded and then in 1850s when British again started recruiting the Sikhs in Punjab Sikhs insisted in keeping their article of faiths together like earlier. so British created

Punjab regiment for Punjabis (hair cut sikhs and hindus)
Sikh regiment for Khalsa
Baloch regiment for Balochis
and so forth.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Jan 2012 00:08

"After several decades, the Tat Khalsa emerged victorious. According to W. H. Mcleod, it ensured that “in 1905 idols were removed from the Harimandir”. (Historical Dictionary of Sikhism). Modern day Sikhism is a creation of this movement."

Not just that the idols were removed but also lower caste people were allowed to enter Golden Temple because the "Hindu like" practices had been brought back into the Khalsa faith. Thus idols were removed and lower caste people were told to start distributing Karah Prasad to everybody who comes to Golden Temple.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 21 Jan 2012 02:17

why was the insistence on removing idols? also in modern day, are Sikhs prohibited form visiting places with "Idols"? the hatred for "idolatry" is a uniquely Islamic/Christian concept.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Jan 2012 02:45

"why was the insistence on removing idols? also in modern day, are Sikhs prohibited form visiting places with "Idols"? the hatred for "idolatry" is a uniquely Islamic/Christian concept."

There were multiple issues

1. The hereditary mahants (from Guru's family line) were in control of the Gurdwaras and had a cult following instead of the Guru Granth.

2. The hereditary mahants had lots of power to put unsikhi like practices (lower castes not allowed langar, women not allowed, etc).

3. The hereditary mahants had installed idols of not only Gurus but of their local deities which had nothing to do with the concept of Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev (Nir Ankaar means without any form).

Christians actually do pray to the idol of Jesus christ and Mary.

The concept of Nirankaar and Akal Murat (God without any form and whole universe is its face) is actually Indian origin.

Muslims don't like Idols is because Mohammad broke the idols at Mecca and declared himself to be "Messiah" and told people to not make his idols or pray to his pictures.

Sikhs do like the Idols but don't like them when bad people use them to make money and fool innocents.

Most Sikhs actually do have depicted pictures of Gurus at home and Gurdwaras (but putting a garland on a picture is seen as a useless thing).

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Jan 2012 02:47

If you can't read/comprehend punjab (or hindi or english) then Sri Guru Granth Sahib is also on idol. Bowing to a Book is nothing more than bowing towards mecca. A real sikh is suppose to read and comprehend the Sri Guru Granth Sahib by himself.

Also there is no priesthood among Sikhs.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 21 Jan 2012 02:54

SBajwa wrote:

which had nothing to do with the concept of Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev (Nir Ankaar means without any form).

As per Choubis avatar in Dasam Granth:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਗਯੋ ਛੀਰ ਨਿਧ ਜਹਾਂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਇਸਥਿਤ ਥੇ ਤਹਾਂ ॥
ब्रहमा गयो छीर निध जहां ॥ काल पुरख इसथित थे तहां ॥
Amidst the milk-ocean, where the Immanent Lord was seated, Brahma reached there;

ਕਹਯੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਹ ਨਿਕਟ ਬੁਲਾਈ ॥ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਧਰੋ ਤੁਮ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
कहयो बिशन कह निकट बुलाई ॥ क्रिशन अवतार धरो तुम जाई ॥२॥
The Lord called Vishnu near Him and said, "You go to the earth and assume the form of Krishna incarnation.2.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੇ ਬਚਨ ਤੇ ਸੰਤਨ ਹੇਤ ਸਹਾਇ ॥ ਮਥਰਾ ਮੰਡਲ ਕੇ ਬਿਖੈ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੩॥
काल पुरख के बचन ते संतन हेत सहाइ ॥ मथरा मंडल के बिखै जनम धरयो हरि राइ ॥३॥
Vishnu took birth in Mathura area for the welfare of saints, on receiving the orders of the Loard.3.

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=645

Are you saying "Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev" is different from that of Dasam Guru?

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Jan 2012 06:39

Are you saying "Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev" is different from that of Dasam Guru?

NO! Did I say that? Akal Purukh is the one and the only. Same for everybody. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji says this in Mool Mantra which is basis of all the Gurbani

Ik OmKar -- One Omkar
Sat Naam -- Truth it its name
Karta Purukh -- Creator of the mankind
Nir Bhau -- Without any fear
Nir Vair -- Without any enemies
Akal Murut -- universe is its face
Aajuni Sai Bhang -- does not born or die
Gur Prasad -- This is a Gift from the Guru
Jap Aaade -- When you will chant/meditate on its name
Sach Jugad -- With true mind will achieve/get to Akal Purukh
Sach Haibhi -- This is Truth
Sach Nanak -- Truth Says Nanak
Sach Hosi bhi Sach -- Was true in past and will remain true in future.

---------------

All sikh Gurus and sri Guru Granth Sahib is further exploration/explanation of the ideas above Mool Mantra in Japu ji Sahib.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Jan 2012 06:44

Guru Gobind Singh merely created the Khalsa on the principles of Guru Nanak Dev. Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji in Japu ji Sahib says "Paanch Pravaan Paanch Pradhaan Panche paave Darghe Maan Panchan jeeya da Raajan" i.e.

1. There are five banis (pravaan)
2. Five Pradhan or principles or elements of life as explained later in gurbani
3. When you control five you get eternal Maan or "pride" or recognized by Akal Purukh.
4. Five choosen one's (panchayat) can even control Akal Purukh.

I can go on and on.. So based on Guru Nanak's explanation of Five (and other gurus) Sri Guru Gobind singh created Khalsa so that Five Demons (kaam krodh lobh moh ahankaar) can be controlled and Satt Santokh Daya Dharm and Sabr can be practiced just like SatYug.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 22 Jan 2012 01:58

SBajwa wrote:4. Five chosen ones (panchayat) can even control Akal Purukh.

Could you expand on this SBajwa ji? I've heard the same point being made in respect of the 5 Pandavas in their relationship with Krishna, but didn't quite grasp its significance.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Jan 2012 06:35

SBajwa wrote:
Are you saying "Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev" is different from that of Dasam Guru?
NO! Did I say that? Akal Purukh is the one and the only. Same for everybody.

You said:

The hereditary mahants had installed idols of not only Gurus but of their local deities which had nothing to do with the concept of Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev (Nir Ankaar means without any form).

You have problem with Mahants installing local deities (which i understand were Hindu deities). If Akal Purukh is seated in milky ocean (ब्रहमा गयो छीर निध जहां ॥ काल पुरख इसथित थे तहां ॥), which kind of reminds me of particular Hindu God , how can Akal Purukh be same as a Hindu God?. That too having a form (roopa){कहयो बिशन कह निकट बुलाई } vs Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev .

Don't you think it contradicts the idea of Akal Purukh by Guru Nanak Dev, as stated above by you?.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Jan 2012 06:47

SBajwa wrote: Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji says this in Mool Mantra which is basis of all the Gurbani

Ik OmKar -- One Omkar
Sat Naam -- Truth it its name
Karta Purukh -- Creator of the mankind
Nir Bhau -- Without any fear
Nir Vair -- Without any enemies
Akal Murut -- universe is its face
Aajuni Sai Bhang -- does not born or die
Gur Prasad -- This is a Gift from the Guru
Jap Aaade -- When you will chant/meditate on its name
Sach Jugad -- With true mind will achieve/get to Akal Purukh
Sach Haibhi -- This is Truth
Sach Nanak -- Truth Says Nanak
Sach Hosi bhi Sach -- Was true in past and will remain true in future.

---------------

what is unique,new or special about it?.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 22 Jan 2012 07:24

Sushupti wrote:If Akal Purukh is seated in milky ocean (ब्रहमा गयो छीर निध जहां ॥ काल पुरख इसथित थे तहां ॥), which kind of reminds me of particular Hindu God , how can Akal Purukh be same as a Hindu God?. That too having a form (roopa){कहयो बिशन कह निकट बुलाई } vs Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev.

I don't mean to butt into your convo with SBajwa ji, but I think your confusion is based on a wrong idea of "roopa" versus "niraakar", quite common especially amongst Advaitists. They see a "contradiction", and so Acharya Shankara derogated one Vedic description of Reality as "saguNa" and a supposedly higher (?) type of Vedic Reality as "nirguNa". But the word "saguNa-brahman" never occurs in Veda, Upanishad or any other text, and is a contradiction if there ever was one. It may have been invented by Acharya Shankara in order to remove contention and contradiction that was conceived on the mental platform. While it has its uses, it still doesn't square with Veda, which neither talks of "saguNa brahman" nor creates any high/low distinction between its description of Reality from different angles.

According to other Vedanta commentaries, all spiritual reality is transcendental to material qualities of any kind. Therefore all spiritual reality is nirguNa onlee. However, this nirguNatva is not merely a negation (neti neti) of material qualities. This nirguNatva is neither an aggregation nor a negation of material qualities. It is simply transcendental, and it contains transcendental name, form, attributes, etc. which are completely independent, unlimited and unbounded. So the above is not a contradiction between nirankar and roopa. Just my 2 cents.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Jan 2012 09:52

Carl saar,
I will submit a response in Religion thread.

niran · Post by **niran** » 22 Jan 2012 10:13

SBajwa wrote:http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/5 ... 24x510.gif
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15480741

there is one glaring blunder in this picture, spot it.

and by the way
Akal Purukh=== one who has no end or start
Nirankar== one with endless aakaar== nirantar aakaar== One from who the world is.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 22 Jan 2012 10:38

SBajwa wrote:I can go on and on.. So based on Guru Nanak's explanation of Five (and other gurus) Sri Guru Gobind singh created Khalsa so that Five Demons (kaam krodh lobh moh ahankaar) can be controlled and Satt Santokh Daya Dharm and Sabr can be practiced just like SatYug.

Was Khalsa created to control an individual's emotions or to fight the Mughal tyranny? If it was former, why couldn't that be done by Guru Nanak himself or the earlier Gurus?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jan 2012 10:59

shyam wrote:
SBajwa wrote:I can go on and on.. So based on Guru Nanak's explanation of Five (and other gurus) Sri Guru Gobind singh created Khalsa so that Five Demons (kaam krodh lobh moh ahankaar) can be controlled and Satt Santokh Daya Dharm and Sabr can be practiced just like SatYug.
Was Khalsa created to control an individual's emotions or to fight the Mughal tyranny? If it was former, why couldn't that be done by Guru Nanak himself or the earlier Gurus?

IMHO,One have to prepare the material first before perfecting the product. Other Guris lay down the spiritual foundation for the eventual advent of Khalsa in which both Saintliness and soldiership was combined and balanced in individual.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Jan 2012 21:58

Carl wrote:
Sushupti wrote:If Akal Purukh is seated in milky ocean (ब्रहमा गयो छीर निध जहां ॥ काल पुरख इसथित थे तहां ॥), which kind of reminds me of particular Hindu God , how can Akal Purukh be same as a Hindu God?. That too having a form (roopa){कहयो बिशन कह निकट बुलाई } vs Nirankaar of Guru Nanak dev.
I don't mean to butt into your convo with SBajwa ji, but I think your confusion is based on a wrong idea of "roopa" versus "niraakar", quite common especially amongst Advaitists. They see a "contradiction", and so Acharya Shankara derogated one Vedic description of Reality as "saguNa" and a supposedly higher (?) type of Vedic Reality as "nirguNa". But the word "saguNa-brahman" never occurs in Veda, Upanishad or any other text, and is a contradiction if there ever was one. It may have been invented by Acharya Shankara in order to remove contention and contradiction that was conceived on the mental platform. While it has its uses, it still doesn't square with Veda, which neither talks of "saguNa brahman" nor creates any high/low distinction between its description of Reality from different angles.

According to other Vedanta commentaries, all spiritual reality is transcendental to material qualities of any kind. Therefore all spiritual reality is nirguNa onlee. However, this nirguNatva is not merely a negation (neti neti) of material qualities. This nirguNatva is neither an aggregation nor a negation of material qualities. It is simply transcendental, and it contains transcendental name, form, attributes, etc. which are completely independent, unlimited and unbounded. So the above is not a contradiction between nirankar and roopa. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for the "Gyan" but my reply was in the context of following line by SBajwaJi:

"The concept of Nirankaar and Akal Murat (God without any form and whole universe is its face) is actually Indian origin."

Which is not same as what you are saying.

Regarding you saying " wrong idea of "roopa", Roopa is what is perceived by "Drisheyndriya" i.e. eye and its part in "Mana". I am not sure if one can be aware of "Roopa" in any other way.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Jan 2012 22:19

Sushupati ji,

Quoting Dasam Granth is not a correct way. Majority of Sikhs reject Dasam Granth and only accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib as their Guru.

Sandeep

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Jan 2012 22:20

By Sushupati

SBajwa wrote:
Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji says this in Mool Mantra which is basis of all the Gurbani

Ik OmKar -- One Omkar
Sat Naam -- Truth it its name
Karta Purukh -- Creator of the mankind
Nir Bhau -- Without any fear
Nir Vair -- Without any enemies
Akal Murut -- universe is its face
Aajuni Sai Bhang -- does not born or die
Gur Prasad -- This is a Gift from the Guru
Jap Aaade -- When you will chant/meditate on its name
Sach Jugad -- With true mind will achieve/get to Akal Purukh
Sach Haibhi -- This is Truth
Sach Nanak -- Truth Says Nanak
Sach Hosi bhi Sach -- Was true in past and will remain true in future.

---------------

what is unique,new or special about it?.

Please ask this question to the people who were impartial to disseminate this knowledge to the average folks in their own language that Sri Guru Nanak dev ji did 500 years ago.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 22 Jan 2012 22:23

Sushupti wrote:"The concept of Nirankaar and Akal Murat (God without any form and whole universe is its face) is actually Indian origin."

Which is not same as what you are saying.

Right. But he is not wrong in saying that either, AFAIK. E.g. 'God' as vishwaroopa is certainly an Indian concept. God with "no form" is also a form.

Sushupti wrote:Regarding you saying " wrong idea of "roopa", Roopa is what is perceived by "Drisheyndriya" i.e. eye and its part in "Mana". I am not sure if one can be aware of "Roopa" in any other way.

You're wrong there, as per Veda and commentators. The jnAnendriyas do not produce the mental image pictures, they are merely a via media through which something is apprehended, by paroksha (by proxy), rather than directly. As long as we depend on indriyas, and know no other way of knowing, we are limited or restricted by the field of activity (gochara) of each indriya. But jnAna, roopa etc exist independently of indriyas.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Jan 2012 22:27

Was Khalsa created to control an individual's emotions or to fight the Mughal tyranny? If it was former, why couldn't that be done by Guru Nanak himself or the earlier Gurus?

Khalsa was created to fight any tyranny (Mughal, Maratha, Bangla, Tamil, chinese, black, white, yellow, punjabi, hindi, etc)

Guru Nanak Dev told that to get away from the cycles of life and birth you have to control these emotions but the Sixth Guru Sri Guru HarGobind ji realized that for Dharma (Righteousness) one has to be physically fit and ready to upheld it. Thus he started militarizing (which is again the need of today). Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa.

Khalsa is an Army!! that's why they have a code of conduct and a uniform. A 300 lb person who becomes Khalsa but cannot even walk without help or upheld the dharma by fighting for it is fooling himself only. The very first thing to become a Khalsa is

1. Become a Good Sikh of your Guru (means get a good knowledge of Sri Guru Granth Sahib).
2. Be a Physically Fit with a discipline to rise early, meditate, workout, earn and raise a family.
3. Take the Khalsa Vow once you feel that you have enough strength to fight for Dharma.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Jan 2012 22:34

Carl wrote: Right. But he is not wrong in saying that either, AFAIK. E.g. 'God' as vishwaroopa is certainly an Indian cocept. God with "no form" is also a form.

There is no dispute about that, agree. But if Akal Purukh was in "with "no form" is also a form" type there was no need to call Vishnu near Him {कहयो बिशन कह निकट बुलाई}. He could have ordered Vishnu through "Aakashvaani" or something like that. How can you call someone near (निकट) you when you are residing as "Nirankar".

Carl wrote:

You're wrong there, as per Veda and commentators. The jnAnendriyas do not produce the mental image pictures, they are merely a via media through which something is apprehended, by paroksha (by proxy), rather than directly. As long as we depend on indriyas, and know no other way of knowing, we are limited or restricted by the field of activity (gochara) of each indriya. But jnAna, roopa etc exist independently of indriyas.

Reply not relevant to the thread, although don't agree with what you are saying. I Think Atri Ji is the best person to reply on this given his depth on Shamkhya. It all comes to how one resolves Subject-Object dichotomy.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Jan 2012 22:39

SBajwa wrote:Sushupati ji,

Quoting Dasam Granth is not a correct way. Majority of Sikhs reject Dasam Granth and only accept Sri Guru Granth Sahib as their Guru.

Sandeep

Majority of Sikhs rejecting Dasam Granth doesn't deny the fact that it is the experience of Dasam Guru in his own words. And hence, my question regarding Akal Purukh of Guru Nanak Dev Vs that of Dasam Guru.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 22 Jan 2012 22:42

svenkat wrote:Carl saar,
I will submit a response in Religion thread.

svenkat ji, sure. Which thread is that?

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 22 Jan 2012 23:00

SBajwa wrote: Please ask this question to the people who were impartial to disseminate this knowledge to the average folks in their own language that Sri Guru Nanak dev ji did 500 years ago.

But what you feel?. You can share your opinion, if you like.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jan 2012 02:11

Is this Milky ocean a physical space or in spiritual sphere? We know the BVM/MVB Trinity is in every universe doing the job of Creation, sustaining and then desolving it.Since Parbrahm beyond any duality , only way Lord Vishnu can come close and communicate is in sprirtual sense. Carl's quote is on the spot and relevant.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 23 Jan 2012 07:40

Majority of Sikhs rejecting Dasam Granth doesn't deny the fact that it is the experience of Dasam Guru in his own words.

nobody knows whether it was 100% written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh or not!! because

1. His father (Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur) was fighting to protect the Brahmins of Kashmir and gave away his life.
2. There were thousands of people who came into the shelter of Guru Gobind singh asking protection from Aurungzeb.
3. Guru Gobind singh got many of the educated people under his protection to start writing about their values and their beliefs.
4. Guru Gobind singh created a book called "Dasam Granth" made out of writing of people in his protection to protect their beliefs.

so!! Dasam Granth is not the writings of Sri Guru Gobind Singh but of people (Educated Kashmiris and others) under his protection who wrote their values/beliefs/etc with sole object to preserve them. Guru Gobind singh gave them the name "DASAM GRANTH" but he gave supremacy to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib!!! Because!! Protecting and fighting for other beliefs (even contrary to his own) was his DHARMA!! and protecting the beliefs of Guru Nanak Dev was his Karma (as denoted to him by the Gurus before his).

So!! nobody knows whether "Deh Shiva Bar Mohe Eihe Shubh Karman te Kabho na Tarou" is actually written by Guru Gobind Singh but it is so close to the Sikh beliefs (when Shiva is thought of as a Nirankaar) that it is a de-facto Sikh emblem and Sri Guru Gobind Singh put his stamp (as Dasam Granth) because it was his Dharm.

can you find any other such fear less person in the history of the world whom after murder of his father/mother and 4 sons says "so what when I have given away the "balidaan" of them when there are millions alive to cherish them and move their beliefs forward"

member_22286 · Post by **member_22286** » 23 Jan 2012 09:30

SBajwa wrote:
Majority of Sikhs rejecting Dasam Granth doesn't deny the fact that it is the experience of Dasam Guru in his own words.
nobody knows whether it was 100% written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh or not!! because

1. His father (Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur) was fighting to protect the Brahmins of Kashmir and gave away his life.
2. There were thousands of people who came into the shelter of Guru Gobind singh asking protection from Aurungzeb.
3. Guru Gobind singh got many of the educated people under his protection to start writing about their values and their beliefs.
4. Guru Gobind singh created a book called "Dasam Granth" made out of writing of people in his protection to protect their beliefs.

so!! Dasam Granth is not the writings of Sri Guru Gobind Singh but of people (Educated Kashmiris and others) under his protection who wrote their values/beliefs/etc with sole object to preserve them. Guru Gobind singh gave them the name "DASAM GRANTH" but he gave supremacy to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib!!! Because!! Protecting and fighting for other beliefs (even contrary to his own) was his DHARMA!! and protecting the beliefs of Guru Nanak Dev was his Karma (as denoted to him by the Gurus before his).

So!! nobody knows whether "Deh Shiva Bar Mohe Eihe Shubh Karman te Kabho na Tarou" is actually written by Guru Gobind Singh but it is so close to the Sikh beliefs (when Shiva is thought of as a Nirankaar) that it is a de-facto Sikh emblem and Sri Guru Gobind Singh put his stamp (as Dasam Granth) because it was his Dharm.

can you find any other such fear less person in the history of the world whom after murder of his father/mother and 4 sons says "so what when I have given away the "balidaan" of them when there are millions alive to cherish them and move their beliefs forward"

Asolutely gorgeous post sir!Absolutely gorgeous post sir! This is the reason why I think he is the best thing to happen to India after Buddha and Before Gandhi.The only three Indian's in history who tried to unify Indians at the grass root level.He is also an individual who completely understood the depravity,despair and hopelesness the chaturvarna system imposed