Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 04:52

venug wrote:Sanskrit speaking Aryans supposed to have displaced IVC Dravidians, but the seals seems to suggest, they used to speak Sanskrit. Not sure what do these guys rooting for AMT want? It appears even if you magically transport them to ICV Introduce them to Sanskrit speaking IVC people, Manish ji and SN_Rajan ji are going to deny and may ask for more proof.

venug ji,

I personally would like that ManishH ji and SN_Rajan ji continue to stick with their beliefs! It is difficult to find good quality devil's advocates like ManishH ji, who are convinced of AIT and also knowledgeable about its fabric!

This thread has immensely profited by their dedication and commitment to AIT!

In fact ManishH ji was kind enough to provide me with two very important arguments in favor of OIT.

a) He pointed me towards Bangani

Moreover, the discovery of a small and extinct kentum language inside India (Proto‑Bangani, with koto as its word for "hundred"), surviving as a sizable substratum in the Himalayan language Bangani, tends to support the hypothesis that the older kentum form was originally present in India as well.

This allows possibly for India to make a claim as a PIE-Homeland, even with their current linguistic theory!

b) He pointed me towards Sumerian word for Horse - 'Aśśa'

The theory I was working on about the Horse, was based till now on the Vedic witness of the Vedic horse having 17 pairs of ribs which coincided with the Arabian Horse. But the claim was still there that the Horse has a cognate in all Indo-European languages. That however has proved to be wrong, and if at all the Sumerian word for horse - 'Aśśa' now seems to be the cognate for Sanskrit áśva, and has put a long nail through this Horse business as well.

As far as I am concerned, I consider these very valuable contributions to my own arguments in favor of Indigenism!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 05:07

venug ji,

I personally don't think they were monetary coins or had some such purpose. For that the seals are all individual.

They could represent many things

a) As the official seal of some commercial enterprise or house to mark their product or commercial documents!

b) As some janam-patri created by wealthy families when some child was born as a gift to the child.

c) As some bridal gift, perhaps signifying a marriage of two houses.

d) etc.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 08 Sep 2012 05:32

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 08 Sep 2012 07:00

Venug,

The seals are to be road (for most part) from right to left. Keep in mind that seals that we see are of two kinds (1) Actual seals with portrusion and (2) replica of them created using mold (concave).

As a rule of thumb (but only rule of thumb.. there are exceptions.. afterall Newtons theory of gravity could not explain orbitral perturbation of Mercury) to read from Head of the animial (when present) since either of above 2 scenario, head of animal (unicorn type) presents a good guide.

This work is in preliminary stage, however IMHO, better than any other effort so far, including that of Rajesh Rao.

What I find funny is that when Sue Sullivan contacted Rajesh Rao, latter even did not bother to respond. This surprises me beyond anything. When I tried to publish my book via Indian publishing house, many indologists - pro INdia crowd - used their relationship with this/these publishers to prevent publication of my work!

Reason? My work disturbed their established timeline!!!!

In any case, I am happy to infom you that it is been accepted for publication in India and will soon be published there, in addition to Amazon.

Many contact me, related to MBH war dating, and even when in final analysis this so called new attempts come out to be novice and ridiculous, each and every instance when someone proposes a timing other than mine, I am more excited. This is because I remain convinced, no matter what the final outcome, I will learn more, our knowledge will expand......

It appears many so called scholars, professors, experts are in the business of justifying and hanging on to whatever they might have done once. Strange is the human brain and mind....

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 08 Sep 2012 07:07

IVC seals.

A side bar. I don't want anyone to jump and connect IVC = Dwarka. All I want to do is bring out one piece of info from Dwarka. Mahabharata text tells us (Vanaparva) when Dwarka was attacked, all residents were informed that they could enter or exit Dwarka only after confirmation/verification of their individula seals! (not unilike passport, driver license in our times).

Think of these seals (IVC seals) in the light of that tradition. Food for thought.

This does not mean each any every IVC artifact is identification seal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 07:08

venug wrote:Sanskrit speaking Aryans supposed to have displaced IVC Dravidians,

This is how I currently see the issue. There is some linguistic common link going right from India to Europe. It is OK to call that group of languages "Indo-European"

Sanskrit is such a highly refined language that it was probably specifically developed by scholars from an earlier existing Indo-European language. Since Sanskrit per se is restricted to historic "greater India" it is likely that a pre existing Indo European language was already in India before Sanskrit was created. That leaves us with two dates to look at. One is the date of development of Sanskrit and the other is the earlier date at which some Indo European language became widespread in India.

There are some really strange difference between "closely related" Indo European languages that lack explanation. It is certain that language developed first and grammar later. The development of strict grammar along with very early words like father, mother, foot, mouth and eye is unlikely. And languages would not have lurked in one place waiting for the development of grammar first and then the chariot to suddenly explode across half the world. Languages move with people. Grammar is a technique that can be artificially constructed and applied to existing words. Even if languages are similar in terms of cognates different grammar could merely mean a separate evolution of grammar. Similar grammar could mean learning from someone else rather than inheriting from a common ancestor.

Regarding the suggestion that "hoses run fast, chariots fight hard and therefore horse_and_chariot_and_language went as one bundle, it sounds both like bundle and b-ukhwaas to me. Why was an Indus seal found in BMAC long before horse is supposed to have reached India? If we apply the Mitanni linguists logic the one seal found in BMAC was in the original place and the hundreds of seals in SSC/IVC were imported from BMAC. Fine, I am an SDRE and I will swallow that. But they still had to travel no? How did they do that without horse in 2500 BC? If people traveled, language also traveled no?

The only explanation I can offer regarding the tripe we see thrown at us is that there has been no accountability for people like Witzel or even Anthony. No one really cared whether they lived or died. So they published whatever they wanted and nobody cared.

David Anthony' book is an attempt to do a Jared Diamond. There have been a series of books that see the world through some lens. Jared Diamond wrote Guns, Germs and Steel. Another guy wrote world history through Salt. A third guy has done the same via coffee. Anthony has done it with horse and language. I suspect that this is a mix of moneymaking plus personal views being pushed like surgeons promoting some fancy product developed by them as "the best" for particular disease.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 08 Sep 2012 07:12

I agree with Rajesh ji that ManishH ji had been of great help to this thread. Not sure what was contribution of SN Rajan. May be as Rajesh ji sugguested somewhere.. to show how weak is AIT.

Linguistics is not my forte and I don't claim to know all the terms, and how a language changes. That does not mean anyone can take me on a BS ride. Field of linguistics may have something to offer, but on the whole, in my estimation, it has caused more mischief than be of help in growing our knowledge.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 07:25

Nilesh Oak wrote: Not sure what was contribution of SN Rajan.

General cheerleading that got ManishH back on here enough to actually allow me to learn more.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Sep 2012 07:27

RajeshA wrote:I personally would like that ManishH ji and SN_Rajan ji continue to stick with their beliefs! It is difficult to find good quality devil's advocates like ManishH ji, who are convinced of AIT and also knowledgeable about its fabric!

RajeshA ji, we should keep in mind ManishH's recent statement on this thread that he is personally glad that AIT is being taught in schools in India.

While I agree with some of the benefits of having him play the role of a Devil's advocate - that does not detract from the fact that I would normally regard all folks having a view such as ManishH has expressed as sheer scum. His stand is not one in favor of academic impartiality or thoughtfulness ('let's weigh the arguments in favor of both sides'), this is not a stand that has any remote sense of understanding of what it means to this country- it is a stand that to my mind reeks of sheer, unmitigated bigotry and hatred.

So while we are happy to continue to derive benefits from his role as devil's advocate (which is a useful role) - lets also not lose our ability to distinguish between right and wrong, between an attitude rooted in science-based impartiality and racist bigotry.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 07:30

Here is a nice modern English, yet scholarly and yet written in an easy style ref about Sounds, the Vedas and sanskrit. I would download the whole lot if I found a link. Excerpts from pages starting from the link below
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap43.htm

The six Angas are Siksa (Phonetics); Vyakarana (grammar); Nirukta (lexicon, etymology); Kalpa (manual of rituals); Chandas (prosody); Jyotisa (astronomy-astrology). A Brahmin must be acquainted with all. That he must be well- versed in the Vedas goes without saying. He must first learn to chant them and proficiency in the six Angas will later help him to gain insights into their meaning.

Siksa is the nose of the vedapurusa, Vyakarana his mouth, Kalpa his hand, Nirukta his ear, Chandas his foot and Jyotisa his eye. The reason for each sastra being identified with a part of the body will become clear as we deal with the Angas individually.
Siksa comes first among the six limbs of the Vedas, the nose of the Vedapurusa. The function of the nose here is not be taken only as that of perceiving smells. It has also the function of breathing; in fact it is one of the organs of breathing. Siksa serves as the life-breath of the Vedic mantras.

Where is the life of a Vedic mantra centred? Each syllable of a hymn is to be enunciated strictly according to its measure. Clarity of pronunciation is what is intended. Apart from this, each syllable is raised, lowered or pronounced evenly -- udatta, anudatta, savarita. If attention is paid to these points, there will be tonal purity. A mantra yields the desired fruit if each syllable is vocalised with clarity and tonal accuracy. The phonetic and tonal exactitude of a mantra is even more important that its meaning. In other words, even though the meaning is not understood, if the tonal form takes shape correctly, the mantra will bring the intended benefit. So the life-breath of the Vedas, which are a collection of mantras, is their sound [the "sound form" ].

There is a mantra to cure scorpion sting. Its meaning is not revealed. Its potency is in its sound. Certain sounds have certain powers associated with them. It is sometimes asked: Why should the sraddha mantras be in Sanskrit? May they not be in English or Tamil? Those who raise these questions do not realise that it is the sound that matters here, not the language as such. If the teeth of a sorcerer were knocked off, his witchcraft [magic] would have no effect. Why? Because the man would not be able to recite this spell properly.

Enunciation of the mantras is most important to the Vedas. What do we do about it? Siksa is the science that deals with the character of Vedic syllables it determines their true nature. The science of the sounds of human speech is called phonetics and it is more important to the Vedic language that to any other tongue. The reason is that even if there is a slight change in how you vocalise a syllable the efficacy of the mantra will be affected. [The result sometimes will be contrary to what is intended ].

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 08 Sep 2012 07:40

Arjun wrote:RajeshA ji, we should keep in mind ManishH's recent statement on this thread that he is personally glad that AIT is being taught in schools in India.

Arjun ji,

I noticed that statement of ManishH ji too. The problem is as said in marathi.."Akashach phatala, tithe thigal kothe lavanar!" i.e. when entire sky has been torn, where would one bother to patch it up. (Saara aasaman hi phat gaya, vaha kaha kaha 'rafooo' karen!"

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Sep 2012 08:09

Nilesh Oak wrote: In any case, I am happy to infom you that it is been accepted for publication in India and will soon be published there, in addition to Amazon.

Congratulations, Nilesh ji! You are doing amazing work.

Are you also connected with Sue Sullivan's effort? I was under the impression you were collaborating with one Wim Borsboom on this matter.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Sep 2012 08:20

vidhushak?

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 08 Sep 2012 08:23

Arjun wrote:Congratulations, Nilesh ji! You are doing amazing work.

Are you also connected with Sue Sullivan's effort? I was under the impression you were collaborating with one Wim Borsboom on this matter.

Arujn ji,

Thank you. Yes, I am also working with Sue Sullivan.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Sep 2012 08:34

Nilesh Oak wrote:Thank you. Yes, I am also working with Sue Sullivan.

Excellent. Not many with your range of interests and 'doer' attitude.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Sep 2012 08:54

ManishH wrote
Reconstructoin all in phonetic laws of sound assimilation - which are nothing specific to Indo-European language family. Unlike what you, in your paranoia of Linguistic scholars want to believe, these principles derive from the mechanisms of human phonetic tract. Nothing to do with scheming ideological motivations to devalue Indian civilization.

Incorrect. "Human phonetics experts" only claim based on current observations on small-scale experiments. They themselves are quite cautious about what they can claim. The very fact that all historical "phonetic changes" are reconstructed changes - guessed, estimated, interpolated - and as I showed in a discussion of early "Linguists" - often chosen/selected/highlighted arbitrarily based on their own sweet preconceptions about what was "likely" to have happned historically- makes this persistent blanket claim of yours rather hollow.

The physicalities involved in the human "sound production" mechanism is something you have been standing on for ages. I find it really strange that with the superb logical understanding of the linguist-worshipper class, you always ignore the problem of assuming uni-directional or restricted-directional sound -changes "guided" by the human voice tract:

if these sound changes were so deterministic because of the physical structure - so deterministic that they inevitably change by these linguist-appropriated-modern-phonetics crutch - why would original sounds originate in a direction that is opposite to the natural tendency of the human tract?

The second point - which again you ignored repeatedly - was that you do not ever mention that fact that the phonetics you so hype about, is based on small sized experiments of modern speakers. Even in these - the phonetics experiment is more successful among "IE" modern derivatives speakers. Thus there is no longer any credible way of separating the confounding factors of whether the very language itself predisposes choice of certain sound change manifestation and how much of that is truly language independent. You know very well what I am referring to - the very influence of practised language on phonetic predispositions.

I read Witzel's article and his problem is that he has not explained any of the phonetics behind his conclusions. Either he himself doesn't understand phonology (he is after all a philologist, not a linguist), or he just thinks it is obvious. I'm inclined to believe it is the former, because he doesn't even provide references to textbooks unlike his style of giving copious references.

Don't you find it miraculous - that what is determined apparently by "phonetics" - can be concluded and arrived at independent of "phonetics"? There are only two possibilities - either that the conclusion is independent of phonetics and linguistics, or is driven by a third factor independent of both linguistics and phonetics.

The obvious one that remains - is ideological commitment, with the attendant conclusion of a complete lack of intellectual integrity in owning up the fact.

By the way - have you managed to catch up on the gap that you manifested in your perception of the current trends in the estimates of evolution of the proto-Italic and proto-Greek? You have again repeated the classical linguist conflation of Greek+Skt+Anatolian in your Midhas talk, whereas there is now acknowledgment of an inexplicable gap from "PIE" to both these proto's.

I am fascinated by the wonderful sense of logic shown in historical linguistics as I am catching up on the subject. I admire them for their naivete and rather skillful use of pseudo-scientific arguments. I used to say that those who failed in politics became priests. Those who even failed in that became pure mathematicians. I have an uncontrollable urge to say now that those who failed in politics became priests. Those who failed even in that became AIT linguists.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 08 Sep 2012 08:56

Arjun ji,

While working on Sullivan Code, we came across many motifs (from IVC seals) that led us (especially Wim Borsboom) to think of 'pictorial narration of Puranas stories..e.g. Skanda but also Sunda/Upasunda/Tilottama and many more. We found words (per Sullivan code that referred to Skanda and his various names). Wim is working on Coffee table book. To a envious person this may appear to be a 'millionaire project'. The goal is to bring this knowledge in a format that encourages common man, households, corporate offices to host such books.

We are great bunch of 'motley fools' spread over Asia-Europe-Americas-Australia-Tahiti who are convinced that our work is its own reward.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 13:50

Arjun wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I personally would like that ManishH ji and SN_Rajan ji continue to stick with their beliefs! It is difficult to find good quality devil's advocates like ManishH ji, who are convinced of AIT and also knowledgeable about its fabric!
RajeshA ji, we should keep in mind ManishH's recent statement on this thread that he is personally glad that AIT is being taught in schools in India.

While I agree with some of the benefits of having him play the role of a Devil's advocate - that does not detract from the fact that I would normally regard all folks having a view such as ManishH has expressed as sheer scum. His stand is not one in favor of academic impartiality or thoughtfulness ('let's weigh the arguments in favor of both sides'), this is not a stand that has any remote sense of understanding of what it means to this country- it is a stand that to my mind reeks of sheer, unmitigated bigotry and hatred.

So while we are happy to continue to derive benefits from his role as devil's advocate (which is a useful role) - lets also not lose our ability to distinguish between right and wrong, between an attitude rooted in science-based impartiality and racist bigotry.

Arjun ji,

it is obvious that we have a sizable group in India which is willing to accept the AIT narrative for some ideological reasons, and then we have a sizable chunk of our population which has been successfully educated in the AIT narrative, who don't bother to question what they are taught!

So this is something we have to accept as being part of the current reality. We know how this situation came about! And this malady is wide-spread! This is the situation we need to change!

So I personally do not get shocked if I come across an Indian ascribing to AIT! More than 2 centuries of brainwashing would indeed leave some effect!

As far as discussing with AIT-proponents on this thread goes, I don't see the mission as being one of changing their individual opinions, but rather of them providing input and challenges to our intellect, so that we get a better understanding of AIT fabric and more insight into how they sell their weak arguments hidden under a full-body suit of rhetorical muscles!

I look at it more like a Samudra Manthan. Even Rajiv Malhotra sees the need for a dialogue with Francis Clooneys and Mark Tullys!

This dialogue is absolutely necessary here for OIT to develop the arguments and collect the resources which are useful for tearing through the AIT narrative.

At the national and global level, we then need a respectful dialogue with the current crop of AIT-Nazis, in full public view, so that one can show the hollowness of the AIT-edifice and show the public at large that it is a very poor alternative to real Indian and Eurasian history! One may need such televised discussions to bring in more public that has been brainwashed with AIT.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 13:55

brihaspati garu,

it is indeed good to know you are looking at the fine-points of PIE linguistics. Perhaps you can some time write some post which goes a bit more deeper into the malaise, and not simply a response to ManishH ji, which is to be understood only by insiders. Something more than "you know what I am talking about" would help all to understand and to better counter the PIE-linguist arguments!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 14:06

Nilesh Oak wrote:Arjun ji,

While working on Sullivan Code, we came across many motifs (from IVC seals) that led us (especially Wim Borsboom) to think of 'pictorial narration of Puranas stories..e.g. Skanda but also Sunda/Upasunda/Tilottama and many more. We found words (per Sullivan code that referred to Skanda and his various names). Wim is working on Coffee table book. To a envious person this may appear to be a 'millionaire project'. The goal is to bring this knowledge in a format that encourages common man, households, corporate offices to host such books.

We are great bunch of 'motley fools' spread over Asia-Europe-Americas-Australia-Tahiti who are convinced that our work is its own reward.

Coffee Table Book format is actually a brilliant idea.

The recipe of seal-narrative is best suited to a Coffee Table Book format. The seals are beautiful and interesting and good eye-candy! The narrative is interesting and more like a fable or story telling! Great!

One really needs to ask, what purpose do I wish to achieve through a book? Which audience do I want to target?

The linguists like Asko-Parpola, Witzel, etc. presume they are the Gate-Keepers of any research into this field and any new findings have to first get their stamp of approval before they receive any wider acclaim or respect! To this view one should simply show a middle finger. See the videos posted by RoyG ji. These guys are talking about Hinduism and IVC and all that without getting any approval of any Hindu organizations, and in the process don't feel sorry about maligning it. So similarly we too don't need to bow to any "authority" on the subject! We should approach the population directly, ignoring these guards! That is why one should forget journals and conferences and go for the Coffee Table!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 14:40

Folks here is an image of five languages (3 dead, two still spoken) that are very similar to Sanskrit. Slovenian is of particular interest
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik ... j_indo.pdf

Numerical Comparisons
An attempt was made to determine, on a percentage basis, how many cognate words Vedic
Sanskrit and Classical Sanskrit share with Slovenian. To compare Vedic Sanskrit with Slovenian, the
vocabulary of Macdonell's A Vedic Reader for Students was used. All entries were compared, except
names and derivatives for a total of 1612. Out of 1612, some 330 were similar to Slovenian in sound
and meaning. This is 20.5%. For Classical Sanskrit comparison, Sanskrita Jnana-Jyotih textbooks 1
and 2 were used. The vocabulary consists of 735 words, where 74 were similar to Slovenian for a 10%
similarity.
Divergence of Sanskrit and Slovenian
Despite of numerous similarities in the two languages, there is no common recognizable
terminology for metals. The discovery and dating of the 'Ice Man' in the South Tyrol with his copper
axe, indicates that metals were known 5,200 years ago. This could be construed that the two languages
separated before metallurgy became known.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 15:40

shiv saar,

I had earlier posted an article about Slovenian earlier, also from Korenni.

It is really fascinating how much Slovenian has retained from Sanskrit!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 15:51

My post above shows that languages very similar to Sanskrit existed over Afghanistan and Iran at least 3000 years ago. It existed in Syria at least 3500 years ago. And Slovenian has commonality with Sanskrit for words that likely came before metallurgy ie >5200 years ago

The only firm conclusions we can get out of these facts is that a language very similar to Sanskrit as we know it today existed in distant parts of Asia and Europe as far back as 5000 years. No information is available about where it started or where it went from the facts available.

Look at the following link comparing Latvian with Sanskrit. 90 odd words are lieted that go far far beyond th usual "Indo European" cognates of father bother, foot etc. The big difference between Latvian and Sanskrit words is that consistently all the aspirated consonants of Sanskrit liek "dha" and "tha" are changed to "da" and "ta" in Latvian. Latvia is over 4000 km from the Indus.
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi51.htm

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 16:01

RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

I had earlier posted an article about Slovenian earlier, also from Korenni.

It is really fascinating how much Slovenian has retained from Sanskrit!

Slovenian is an interesting language. As posted earlier, despite the commonality with Sanskrit there are no common words for metal, suggesting that Slovenian and Sanskrit separated before metallurgy over 5000 years ago.

But what about words for "Horse" and "Wheel" in Slovenian, you might ask. Words for horse and wheel are fundamental to Indo European languages we have been told repeatedly

Horse in Slovenian:‘konj’ (koHb)
Wheel in Slovenian: kolo

hmmm..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Sep 2012 16:09

kolo is close to gol

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 08 Sep 2012 16:12

RajeshA wrote:So I personally do not get shocked if I come across an Indian ascribing to AIT! More than 2 centuries of brainwashing would indeed leave some effect!

You misunderstand me.

An Indian choosing to believe that the evidence is more in favor of AMT does not necessarily shock me (though I would still question the person's reasoning capability) - what shocks me is that there are folks who believe the evidence is so inescapably conclusive that it deserves to be a taught as part of school curriculum ! The first is just a case of inadequate understanding which can be corrected through argument - to me the latter is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty and dogma-driven bigotry. There is a huge difference between the two positions.

One needs to understand that history is worth teaching as a school subject - because written records reveal a lot about the development of humanity over the last 2500 years. But as one goes further back into pre-history, obtaining conclusive evidence about any event or hypothesis obviously gets less and less feasible. Taking a conclusive stand about AMT as a dogma that needs to be taught in schools, based on evidence that is nowhere near to being conclusive - is to me the heights of bigotry, especially when the matter has implications on inter-community relationships as well as ownership to intellectual property that needs to unquestionably belong to India.

There is really no need for any AMT/OIT -like theory relating to pre-history to figure in school text-books unless it is conclusively proven. Alternatively, AMT could be mentioned as a widely-held theory while mentioning that there are alternative theories such as OIT (I have no idea how school books actually phrase this in India today).

The problem with pre-history is uniquely Indian, by the way. The only other civilizations having any kind of pre-history are Greeks, Egyptians, Mesopotamians & Chinese. The first three have long discarded the religion of their pre-historic ancestors and don't care a damn about how the ancient civilization is portrayed since their sense of identification is with the new culture (Christian /Islamic) that destroyed the earlier one. The Chinese pre-history is not being claimed by others in AMT fashion. I actually wish the West did try to claim Chinese pre-history - the response from the Chinese would have at least provided a good lesson to our local Sepoys.

So, that leaves Indians as the only ones with this problem of pre-history that is fraudulently claimed by others. Now, NCERT and India's Marxist historians are widely known to be half-wits - but it does shock me that there are members on this forum who are as intellectually dishonest as Witzel.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 16:32

Lalmohan wrote:kolo is close to gol

I have some related thoughts on multiple words like "gol" or "chakra' or "ratha" or "rota", but later. Need to do some preparation for that

Meanwhile Slovenia again
Slovenian Marsh Yields World's Oldest Wheel

Working on a site in the Ljubljana marshes, Slovenian archaeologists last year uncovered a wooden wheel some 20 kilometers southeast of Ljubljana. Austrian experts have established that the wheel is between 5,100 and 5,350 years old, which makes it the oldest wooden wheel in the world ever found.
Using the radiocarbon method, experts in Vienna established that the wheel found in Slovenia is at least a century older than those found in Switzerland and southern Germany - so far thought to be the oldest.

Nilesh Oak · Post by **Nilesh Oak** » 08 Sep 2012 16:58

Arrows of Mahabharata War (and existance of script/writing)

Above discussion on SSVC seals and Sullivan code compelled me to recall something I read, during my multiple readings of volumnous Mahabharata text.

Mahabharatat text mentions that 'arrows of individual warrior' were marked with HIS NAME.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 08 Sep 2012 18:39

RajeshA wrote: As far as discussing with AIT-proponents on this thread goes, I don't see the mission as being one of changing their individual opinions, but rather of them providing input and challenges to our intellect, so that we get a better understanding of AIT fabric and more insight into how they sell their weak arguments hidden under a full-body suit of rhetorical muscles!

It would be good to get an expert linguist with an open/reopened mind.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 19:12

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

I had earlier posted an article about Slovenian earlier, also from Korenni.

It is really fascinating how much Slovenian has retained from Sanskrit!
Slovenian is an interesting language. As posted earlier, despite the commonality with Sanskrit there are no common words for metal, suggesting that Slovenian and Sanskrit separated before metallurgy over 5000 years ago.

I agree!

shiv wrote:But what about words for "Horse" and "Wheel" in Slovenian, you might ask. Words for horse and wheel are fundamental to Indo European languages we have been told repeatedly

Horse in Slovenian:‘konj’ (koHb)
Wheel in Slovenian: kolo

hmmm..

конь (‘konj’) is actually a pan-slavic name for horse. Considering that the AIT prescribes that people from the area brought the horse into India, it is funny that the word for horse, neither in Slavic languages (konj), nor in Germanic languages (pferd, horse) really is really a cognate of Sanskrit áśva, and the Italic (equos) and Greek (hippos) are cognates if one stretches credulity beyond breaking point!

It is simply a big lie from AIT, that they postulate 'Horse' to have Indo-European cognates!

However I think wheel and chariot may be a different proposition! Sometimes on the basis of 'wheel' and 'chariot' cognate presence, the AIT-Nazis try to sell a horse cognate theory as well, and we often buy the crap without looking at it, but horse simply doesn't have pan-Indo-European cognates!

In USA one talks about "earmarks in legislative bills", where some Congressmen try to smuggle through some provisions under a Bill whose focus is different, and others allow it to get the approval of these Congressmen for the bill!

Similarly AIT-Nazis have been trying to smuggle in Horse in the shadow of Wheel and Chariot! It can't work! And without their horses, the AIT-Nazis cannot really talk of Vedic Tanks!

So we should say to them,
Wheel and Chariot cognates - Possibly!
Horse cognates - You must be jokin'!

Sanskrit 'áśva' is cognates with Sumerian 'aśśa' and Arabic 'hasAn' and some Anatolian languages, but not with Germanic, Celtic, Italic, or Slavic!

2) As far as Slovenian 'kolo' or Slavic 'kolelo' is concerned, one could think of those words as cognates with 'chakla'!

Even rhetorically speaking, it makes sense to accept some of the claims of PIE-linguists to show that we are not rejecting them across-the-board, because that gives them a lever to claim, Indigenists don't want to accept linguistics because we are afraid of what 'science' brings out, and that we are in denial mode! So I would suggest we accept their story with the 'wheel' and the 'chariot'!

But in that point which is crucial to them, presence of pan-Indo-European cognate for horse, we tell them to go and take a walk!

Without the Horse (cognate) their Chariots and Wheels are useless and wouldn't take them anywhere!

Also the absence of the Horse cognate, in fact unhinges their whole Outside-India PIE placement! Giving a kick to the fictitious laryngeals would also help in that!

_____________________

I really think, it would be a good idea if in India we can have comparative linguistics academic research also.

An 'Indo-Balto-Slavic Institute for Linguistics Research' would be a good thing! An 'Indo-Iranian Institute of Linguistics Research' would also be welcome! We really need to kick the Anglo-Germans out of this field! They have poisoned it with their racial biases and preconceived notions!

Also studying of Sumerian and other Mideast Languages and their similarities with Indian languages need to be given some more emphasis!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 19:23

Forget words like "Indo-Aryan" etc. That word is designed to kill identity and obfuscate - like saying "prisoner number 2676".

Use the word Sanskrit and make a list of what we get from there:

1. We have the original Sanskrit from India
2. Next we have a very Sanskrit like language used by the Zoroastrians, called Avestan, which is so like Sanskrit that if you know one you can understand the other. This was widely spoken across Afghanistan, Iran and neighboring central Asian states
3. We have another very Sanskrit like language - again a language that one who knew Sanskrit would easily understand, called Old Persian.
4. We have the fragmentary remnants of Mitanni texts which are translateable ONLY with a knowledge of Sanskrit. Some of these proper names have been understood only because of a connnection with either the Vedas or the Mahabharata. So Syria is an area whereSanskrit itself, or a very Sanskrit like language was used fro long enough to go on to a royal record. Up to here we have nearly contiguous lands with evidence of pretty much the same language over an area that has ancient archaeological records of trade.
5. Then we get Slovenian. 20% of 1600 words were common. So Slovenian is a langauge that has an uncanny similarity with Sanskrit. But no common words for metal, so the connection with Sanskrit probably predates 5000 BC.
6. Then we have Latvian again with an uncanny resemblance to Sanskrit but with sound changes where dh and th become d and t suggesting that Latvian is a later development from a sanskrit like language.

What was a Sanskrit like language doing in Slovenia at that time in the past? Maybe it came to Slovenia from somewhere. Where?

I would think that a curious point is that Sanskrit and sister languages were present over a large contiguous area extending from India to Afghanistan to Iran. That is a huge area. And then we have three separate pockets of Sanskrit like languages. One in Syria. One in Slovenia and one in Latvia.

In the days before reliable sea and air travel to Europe a huge area of land that has a common language or very similar languages (India, Afghanistan, Iran) is more likely to be a source of outward migration of that language rather than small pockets influencing two other small pockets and one humongous land area. The absence of any non IE substrate in sanskrit suggests a very remote "original language" status for Sanskrit in India. What exists of sanskrit in Iran and Europe now is a mere substrate, or an adstrate. Sanskrit is not a superstarte langauge in India. if any Indo European language was added to India, it was only added on top of a very old, pre existing sanskrit like language that covered a vast area of Asia and Europe.

But where is the proof of such spread of a Sanskrit like language? While none exists, one possible hypothesis is of a very ancient Sanskrit like language that spread from its area of maximum land occupation in warm tropical and subtropical Asia to other lands via trade and migration. But I am talking of spread that may have occurred around 5000 BC or earlier. There is no reason to think that the basic language did not exist then

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Sep 2012 19:34

shiv saar,

from Philippines to Slovenia was the reach of Sanskrit and Indic Sanskriti. People used to understand each other through the medium of Sanskrit or some Sanskrit-based language.

Most probably Sanskrit was what English is today - an international language!

That is why it is important that we reclaim Sanskrit and again make it our link language!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 19:38

RajeshA wrote:
It is simply a big lie from AIT, that they postulate 'Horse' to have Indo-European cognates!

The PIE word for wheel is n equally big lie

The PIE word for which both the Greek "kyclos" and English "wheel" came is *kwel-

can you believe it? These jokers have combined two very different words of two very different origins just like I combined Rajesh and Shiv to produce *hradzhuvs

Now where does sanskrit chakra, or ratha for that matter, come from come from PIE *kwel-???

Of course they have a workaround. Ratha comes form PIE *rota they say. Somehow, the primary meaning of ratha as chariot is insidiously passed off as "wheel". Yes ratha is used for wheel (as in potter's wheel) , but chariot wheel itself has a different word in Sanskrit. Surely if pottery is evidence of wheel, then wheel is as old as the oldest pottery. The excuse that is made up here has no_proof_whatsoever (so what else is new for linguists?) is that "ratha/rota" means "spoked wheel" for light chariots.

Still. Tell me how "chakra' comes from *kwel. If you believe that you have to believe that rajesh and shiv come from *hradzhuvs

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 08 Sep 2012 19:43

shiv wrote:Forget words like "Indo-Aryan" etc. That word is designed to kill identity and obfuscate - like saying "prisoner number 2676".

Use the word Sanskrit and make a list of what we get from there.

I think you have to distinguish between Vedic Sanskrit and Panini's Sanskrit, otherwise that too kills identity.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 19:47

RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

from Philippines to Slovenia was the reach of Sanskrit and Indic Sanskriti. People used to understand each other through the medium of Sanskrit or some Sanskrit-based language.

Most probably Sanskrit was what English is today - an international language!

That is why it is important that we reclaim Sanskrit and again make it our link language!

Rajesh, the first step for us would be to stop using bakwaas terminology like "indo Aryan and Old Indic and New longdick etc an speak in terms of Sanskrit. Vedic sanskrit, Classical sanskrit of Panini and sanskrit like languages outside India and words borrowed or derived from sanskrit. Given the amount of "proof"

I have seen to the contrary in my intense reading and discussions these last 2-3 months, the use of the words "Sanskrit" and "Sanskrit like" instead of PIE, IE, IA, PIIr etc would give us a much better grip on what the hell we are talking about. Liek a naive idiot I have been conned into using terminology made up to fudamantaly kill the ientity of a very old language by passing it off as Old Indic, Indo Aryan or some proto language. The people who have done it have intitutionlized bluffing and have lied openly when it suited them. Bring language back call languages by their names. Sanskrit has a name. It's sanskrit, A language like Sanskrit which is understandable by someone who knows Sanskrit is a Sanskrit like language. Other languages can be referred to by their names.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Sep 2012 19:47

The kolo - will be connected by AITN's with the reconstructed koeklo(s) of the reconstructed PIE. The sound change dogma of "rhotacization" will be applied to explain how the last L->R, the second k remains k, but the first k becomes "ch" in Skt. This is why AITN, are so insistent on Vedic having been in love with "rhotacization".

You see, its onlee the Vedic which must be uniquely a rhotacizer. It cannot be shown as a "lhotacizer" since the European counterparts show "L" in their usage for the word. If the Vedic developed in Europe - the word for wheel should not have changed. Therefore Vedic has to be separated from the Steppes to an extent, and suggested that okay Vedic developed a lot near India. In this case any doubts based on the supposed crucial centrality of wheel-chariot-horse trimurthi have to be swept aside [ how can such central things be so substantially alllowed to be corrupted in their usage?] by saying oh random whims of humans!

But then one would expect this unique extra fondness for rhotacization - not shown to asimilar degree for similar crucially central to civilization things in Europe or steppes - that also developed away from Europe near India, to therefore be more a local feature and therefore to remain in tendency?

Well no - because successor languages in India [again dated on the basis of supposed identification of "inner patterns and rhythms" in the Vedic and the so-called AV bridge to "classical Skt" - but needing the axiomatic assumption that "classical Skt" came "later than AV"], turns them around to have the "lhotacized version" - going back to the "L-ified" versions of reconstructed "PIE"!

Thus Vedic has to be an aberration - a kind of supreme random human whim - that appeared like an explosion of rhotacization with no successor.

So if Lohtacization is the tendency shown in India, and the same is the case in uhrheimat of AITN in the steppes, isnt it a possibility that if the theory of sound change has any grain of feasibility - that both are "natural human voicing structure" determined changes from the Vedic "R" in usage of wheel-words?

There are other possibilities of course - and even more uncomfortable for AITN, but lets get one logic at a time.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 08 Sep 2012 19:51

shiv wrote:4. We have the fragmentary remnants of Mitanni texts which are translateable ONLY with a knowledge of Sanskrit. Some of these proper names have been understood only because of a connnection with either the Vedas or the Mahabharata. So Syria is an area whereSanskrit itself, or a very Sanskrit like language was used fro long enough to go on to a royal record. Up to here we have nearly contiguous lands with evidence of pretty much the same language over an area that has ancient archaeological records of trade.

No, that is incorrect. Only some proper names including those of devas, some numerals and some terminology related to horses is Sanskritic. The rest is in Hurrian.

The phonology of Hurrian should be examined, it is in that context that Sanskritic words have been inserted (just like my अरुण - Arun example).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_language

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Sep 2012 19:57

Arjun wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I personally would like that ManishH ji and SN_Rajan ji continue to stick with their beliefs! It is difficult to find good quality devil's advocates like ManishH ji, who are convinced of AIT and also knowledgeable about its fabric!
RajeshA ji, we should keep in mind ManishH's recent statement on this thread that he is personally glad that AIT is being taught in schools in India.

While I agree with some of the benefits of having him play the role of a Devil's advocate - that does not detract from the fact that I would normally regard all folks having a view such as ManishH has expressed as sheer scum. His stand is not one in favor of academic impartiality or thoughtfulness ('let's weigh the arguments in favor of both sides'), this is not a stand that has any remote sense of understanding of what it means to this country- it is a stand that to my mind reeks of sheer, unmitigated bigotry and hatred.

So while we are happy to continue to derive benefits from his role as devil's advocate (which is a useful role) - lets also not lose our ability to distinguish between right and wrong, between an attitude rooted in science-based impartiality and racist bigotry.

AIT is not Indian history and it should be banned from Indian schools and text books. This is the primary objective and not just discussion such as in this thread.

All colonial history and interpretation should be kept as an artifact and used as study material to understand what the colonial mind was.

Similarlity all the Indian folks who sustain and advance such theories such as AIT should also be studied as social groups and understand what makes them to promote some foriegn theories which is not connected to Indian history and how they keep perpetuating these false information.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Sep 2012 20:07

RajeshA wrote:At the national and global level, we then need a respectful dialogue with the current crop of AIT-Nazis, in full public view, so that one can show the hollowness of the AIT-edifice and show the public at large that it is a very poor alternative to real Indian and Eurasian history! One may need such televised discussions to bring in more public that has been brainwashed with AIT.

At the global level I am more interested who is funding the study of sanskrit and also AIT. Who is funding the genetic studies and academic work on comparitive languages and lingustics. How does Indians get recrutied to these studies and take up these subjects.

Who introduced these subjects inside Indian text books in the 1960s. Which foreign govts are keen interest in Indian history education and text book material.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2012 20:08

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:4. We have the fragmentary remnants of Mitanni texts which are translateable ONLY with a knowledge of Sanskrit. Some of these proper names have been understood only because of a connnection with either the Vedas or the Mahabharata. So Syria is an area whereSanskrit itself, or a very Sanskrit like language was used fro long enough to go on to a royal record. Up to here we have nearly contiguous lands with evidence of pretty much the same language over an area that has ancient archaeological records of trade.
No, that is incorrect. Only some proper names including those of devas, some numerals and some terminology related to horses is Sanskritic. The rest is in Hurrian.

The phonology of Hurrian should be examined, it is in that context that Sanskritic words have been inserted (just like my अरुण - Arun example).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_language

No argument. My wording was imprecise. The Sanskrit or Sanskrit like language was contiguous up to Iran, but evidence, albeit fragmentary of Sanskrit exists from further West in Syria. The language reached there and records exist within Hurrian records.