Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 04 Feb 2009 23:18

Ramana,

Of course the Pakistani military was involved with Mumbai, and the Parliamentary attacks. I'm talking about something else

Security managers, and the politicians they report to whether in the US or India, or wherever come to expect terrorist attacks. There's always a stream of indicators and warnings. Some are real, some vapour. Most of those that real are thwarted, but some get through.

The fact that some get through isnt where the strategic surprise, and shock are generated.

What I'm talking about is the pattern of terrorist acts to periodically generate strategic surprise centred on the scale of an attack, its boldness, the importance of a target as a symbol, the casualties inflicted, etc.

Security managers, politicians, and ultimately the public just dont know when the next succesful attack will take terrorism to a new level, because most warnings or attacks become in their own way routine.

It is a strategic conundrum because working on the worst-case assumption is what leads to very expensive over-reactions, such as the Rumsfeld-Cheney 1% doctrine, which are unsustainable in the long term.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 Feb 2009 00:15

Dilbu wrote:Kasab's photo as on today published by rediff
He looks SDRE onree. Surely he cannot be a Pakistani. Kufr banias seems to have done some 'treatment' on him.

Also he is wearing something on his hand. It is so clear and big. Only Kufr banias wear things on their hands.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2009 00:21

Are you nuts? why this intense desire for self goals? I saw the telecast last night on ZeeTV. His right hand was bandaged from the shot by one of the ATS and his left hand was handcuffed.

If you propaganda again will ban you. Enough pingrejis fun and games.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 Feb 2009 04:00

OK guys, here are the most complete quotes from the MKN interview I have seen. Read it carefully.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/feb/01m ... ossier.htm

And here is an interesting clarification, not by MKN, but by the PMs private secretary:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/feb/04n ... erview.htm

There is a statement by MKN referring to Obama "barking up the wrong tree" with his effort to link the crap in Afghan/Pak border to Kashmir. The above clarification is meant to include that as well.

If anybody has the link to the CNN-IBN interview with Karan Thapar in Devil's Advocate when all these statements were made, it would be great. I searched but could not find it.

This has little to do with Sonia, MKN cutting down Pranab to size on behalf of PM, etc. There aren't any massive divergences between these people. Elections are coming up.

But read the quotes. Gives you an idea of the state of mind of people in GoI. Pranab has not been exactly mincing his words either. Nor, for that matter, has the PM.

I personally find some of MKN's statements shockingly blunt. Unheard of in the past even, you could say.

Highly unlikely that all this amounts to nothing. Of course, it could be just frustration on the parts of everybody from Pranab, PM, MKN, and SoniaG who yesterday made another comment about fighting terrorism "unitedly" and so on...

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 05 Feb 2009 04:10

gathering of grass-eating pigs

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 05 Feb 2009 04:27

Talk is cheap especially when MKN talks.
Enda parnadeyam?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 05 Feb 2009 09:23

Dilbu wrote:Kasab's photo as on today published by rediff

Pig looks healthy, surely must be gorging on mutton and chicken biryanis, looks like an opportunity for the p-sec and WKK brigade to do dharnas so that the dosage given to the pig be halaal and allowed to carry out his duties as a follower of ROP.

Sickens me to the stomach to see this pig lolling around healthily.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 05 Feb 2009 09:27

JE Menon wrote: But read the quotes. Gives you an idea of the state of mind of people in GoI. Pranab has not been exactly mincing his words either. Nor, for that matter, has the PM.

I personally find some of MKN's statements shockingly blunt. Unheard of in the past even, you could say.

Ullulating and indulging in verbal diarrhea, sure talk is cheap but what has been the concrete action on the ground, other than throwing large files across the yellow-sea ? Atleast if the file had been smacked on the head of groper-in-chief it would have been some solace. So when the politicians do not want to been impotent and as idiots they resort to babudom-giri.

Bunch of chootiyas....

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 05 Feb 2009 11:02

Anujan wrote:
Dilbu wrote:Kasab's photo as on today published by rediff
He looks SDRE onree. Surely he cannot be a Pakistani. Kufr banias seems to have done some 'treatment' on him.
Also he is wearing something on his hand. It is so clear and big. Only Kufr banias wear things on their hands.

Need to see him in an inmates striped garb and close cropped hair. He looks way too well fed.

Shouldn't the Indian food and water disagree with his TFTA upbringing. If not I suggest it be made that way - puking out a few kilos of himself would be a good start. No need to string him up yet....let him live to see his life shrivel away mm by frikking mm...

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 05 Feb 2009 11:09

JE Menon wrote:OK guys, here are the most complete quotes from the MKN interview I have seen. Read it carefully.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/feb/01m ... ossier.htm

Sure, some selective quoting onlee...

We have provided them with the dossier. They have reverted with certain queries, we have replied to their queries and I presume that they will have more questions and we will assist them.

Hallelujah....I would load up on "Parle" stock.

Narayanan said the country never expected British Foreign Secretary David Miliband to support Pakistan's position that those wanted by India for terrorism need not be handed over but tried in Pakistan.

Narayanan said the country thought Miliband would be more understanding and sympathetic. Replying to a question on reports that Miliband does not support India's request to extradite criminal who are in Pakistan and India should give Islamabad's [Images] judicial system a chance to act, Narayanan said, "I do not know what he meant. You should ask Mr David Miliband himself. I don't know what he was trying to say."

Yes, "natives" run to uncle and aunt for their opinion on everything under the sun. Uncle and aunt deliver their pronoucements. We express our displeasure, with head bowed down onlee.

Whats wrong with that picture. Doesnt that look horribly anachronistic.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 Feb 2009 12:50

Guys, I put that up so people can have a more rounded picture of what was actually said. You may draw your own conclusions obviously. I personally do not share it at all, but in time we shall see. I could be wrong.

John Snow is right. Talk is cheap. MKN's talk is cheap. Kakodkar's talk is cheap. MMS' talk is cheap, before that Vajpayee's talk was cheap, Advani's talk was cheap. And let's not forget Jaswant, whose talk was especially cheap. Everyone's talk is cheap.

But BR "gurus" talk? Fairly expensive I guess. Only we are the true rakshaks of India, many of us sitting comfortably in our homes across the world taking (foreign?) paychex. We are not corruptible, our moral integrity has stood the test of a decade or so of changing our minds on BRF. And because our government is not reacting in a manner or with methods we prefer, we call these individuals names. But that's OK since we have the interests of India at heart, unlike people who have worked in India in government service for most of their lives, and about whom we know next to nothing other than what we read in the media, or hearsay.

The question "what would you have done?" has not been answered. As for myself, can't find much fault with what the government is doing now. It can be interpreted as giving the Pak government/military the chance to make complete fools of themselves before taking some robust action. If not, if we let this attack slide, as I said before, we do not really deserve to survive as a nation. But we will, until these attacks eventually result in a total loss of confidence in the state and leads to its collapse. I won't cry for it, and don't care to be a citizen of a country which does not have the gumption to defend itself and deter its enemies in a manner as public as the attacks upon it. Yet we must give it time. Remember 1971? These things need to be carefully prepared. Forget the 24/7 news cycle and sense of urgency generated therefrom.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Feb 2009 14:19

The knives have been oput for our "No-Security Adviser" for quite some time now.His record has been pathetic,as he has played more politics than securing the country from attack from external terror.62/11 exposed his impotance completely.Nevertheless,he has to take his orders from his political masters who failed to give him clear direction on this acount,as they played football with the country's security threats for years.The current controversy about the discrepencies between the NSA and the FM's statements lies in the internal power struggle within the Congress.Some are blowing hot and others cold,with respect to our reaction to Pak's diabolic terror on 26/11.The FM himself has come in for criticism of his longwinded utterances on the subject and his "war of words" with Pak,much hyperventilating but signifying nothing.

The health of the PM also has its part to play here,as he is desperately trying to give the impression that he is just recovering from an attack of the common cold and has "years of service to the nation left"! The young Turks like Rahul and others are getting fed up with the old fogies and some in taditional Congress psycophantic manner are projecting him as the future PM,wanting to rise meteorically along with him by staying in his "slipstream".More importantly,the glaring inadequacies ,shortages of eqpt.,spares,etc.,that the armed forces are suffering from was a rude shock to the GOI which negelcted the forces for 4+ years now.

What therefore is left for this importent regime now? Even a diplomatic slap on Pak's hands appears too much for it to accomplish.It's impotence is mistakenly being seen by some abroad ,thanks to its spin doctors ,as wisdom of the ages and a Gandhian attitude towards the worst of provocations.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 05 Feb 2009 17:51

The young Turks like Rahul

U mean Young Wimps. If the Yuvraj becomes PeeEm we will have to beg the Jirga here to relax the ban on innovative descriptions of the PeeEm.

PUMPKIN 4 PM! Jai Hind!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Feb 2009 18:03

narayanan wrote:
The young Turks like Rahul

U mean Young Wimps. If the Yuvraj becomes PeeEm we will have to beg the Jirga here to relax the ban on innovative descriptions of the PeeEm.

PUMPKIN 4 PM! Jai Hind!

From the various statements of Rahul Gandhi till date, at least he does appear to have some sense of intelligence and patriotism, and is not any less qualified to be PM, than the other 100,000 politicians in India.

I don't think it should really matter, whether he belongs to the dynasty or not, but rather whether he has what it takes to be a leader.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 05 Feb 2009 19:13

"to fail to take the battle to the enemy, when your back is to the wall is to perish" SunTzu

"The IA was holding hands and forming a human chain to thwart PLA encroachment in Arunachal"

this is the current situation....

Jai Hind
*****
Added Later

Why is talk cheap?

Read here NSA MKN in November 29 2006, Audience Gora Gora logoan!!!!!

India forging links to fight 'faith-based' terror: NSA

New Delhi, Nov 29: India is strengthening political and security linkages with countries in the region to combat "faith-based" terrorism with "external linkages" that has emerged as one of the biggest challenges globally, National Security Advisor M K Narayanan said today.

Related Stories
`Jehadis infiltrating Northeast in name of studying religion`
9 Pak ultras carried out 7/11 blasts: NSASuch links would help the country to protect its pluralism and democracy and maintain peace and stability in its immediate neighbourhood and beyond, Narayanan told a international seminar here on "growing challenges of terrorism with special reference to railways".

"One of the important features of faith-based terrorism is the extent of its external linkages," he said adding that in many, if not most, cases there is the element of external sponsorship -- whether state-sponsored, state-supported or by non-state actors.

Narayanan also said most terrorist groups today "tend to have a radical Islamist visage as well".

"Our effort has, hence, been to strengthen political, economic and security linkages across the entire region. We have offered a wide array of political and economic incentives to countries across the region and in some cases have helped strengthen structures for functional cooperation," he said.

Sponsorship and external linkages have "tended to fertilize indigenous terrorism", he said.

"We, are nevertheless, determined that even while dealing with the challenges, there will be no dilution of our determination to sustain India as an inclusive, open, multi-racial, multi-lingual and multi-ethnic society," he told an audience that included Robert Jamison, Deputy Administrator of the US Transportation Security Department.

Noting that it was "difficult to grade, or benchmark, the different types of terrorism", he said, "nevertheless, experience the world over has been that the intensity of violence has been much higher in the case of religion-oriented terrorism than of other forms of terrorism."

India seeks "peace and stability in our immediate neighbourhood and beyond it. Stable conditions in India's vicinity alone will ensure a peaceful environment within the country," Narayanan said.

Asserting that there was a need to understand the nature and roots of current day terrorism, he said the world faced an entirely new breed of terrorists. Countries were "pitted against global actors, dispersed, fanatical terrorist networks who have the capacity to wage war internationally", he said.

"Motives and morale, men and material, scale and scope -- all have changed, apart from technology. Many more terrorist outfits today have a trans-national reach, most are seemingly untethered to geographical locations or even to political ideologies," he said.

Narayanan said the "institutionalisation of violence" had made new terrorism more asymmetric as newer groups combined many "pre-cepts and practices" of older outfits with novel attributes, much of it made possible by state-of the art technology, global mobility and increased stealth.

"They share common operating procedures and common training practices. They espouse common operating philosophies. They often have common funding structures.

"Terrorist attacks, whether they are in Madrid or Mumbai, or suicide bombers be they be in Bali or Casablanca, Jerusalem or Jammu, show the same pattern of improvisation of tactics, weaponry, reconnaissance techniques, the use of improvised explosive devices and other sophisticated delivery systems," Narayanan said.
It is "noteworthy" that captured militants, whether in Kashmir, London or Indonesia, claimed it was possible for their groups to gather recruits from "different climes, backgrounds, skills and countries, through a uniform training programme", Narayayanan explained.

"Such cross-cultural compatibility has paved the way for deadly attacks in unexpected locales," he said adding that efforts of terrorists are accelerated by technological innovation.

Technology has become a "force multiplier", helping to break down barriers in communication and spread ideas while empowering non-state actors to carry out acts of violence, he said.

"Technology has eased the way for the spread of the ideological virus of terrorism, a virus that floats invisibly across borders and replicates itself in different ways, targeting disconnected young men, via the Internet. Terrorism could not have become the global threat that it has become today but for the advent of technology," he said.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 Feb 2009 19:59

>>"to fail to take the battle to the enemy, when your back is to the wall is to perish" SunTzu

I would take it one step further Umrao boss: "you deserve to perish if you fail to take the battle to the enemy, when your back is to the wall..."

A country that cannot assure vengeance for the blood of its civilians, when the enemy is so bold as to identify itself in so public and matter-of-fact way, does not deserve to exist. In my mind there are no ifs and buts about it: if someone is determined to destroy you, and tells you so many times over, and then acts upon those determinations - either you kill them or you die. Its not a complicated calculation.

It is only a matter of deciding how you do it.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 05 Feb 2009 20:13

JE Menon wrote:Remember 1971? These things need to be carefully prepared. Forget the 24/7 news cycle and sense of urgency generated therefrom.

The comparisons to 1971 are erroneous. It's like apple/orange situation. In 1971, the PA carried out a genocide within E. Pakistan thereby driving out approximately 10 million refugees into India. I'm not going to go into details since the facts are freely available.

Mumbai 26/11 differs considerably for all the obvious reasons. Bottom line, it was a direct assault on India by the Pakistani establishment. Whether the attackers wore the PA uniform is not relevant to prove Pakistani culpability.

Also, the question is not whether one is in India or overseas or whether one has served in the Indian Govt. to prove anyones bonafides.

The idea of India is eternal and shall remain so!!

The question at present in front of the Indian nation is that it's polity is thoroughly hollow. "Leaders" that have been elected have not performed their basic duty/responsibility of protecting India against repeated attacks clearly organized/financed etc. by Pakistan.

Do we then go to an extreme by saying "we do not deserve to survive as a nation" as you have repeatedly done?

Or does the Indian population throw these incompetent rascals out for abjectly failing the nation.

India is much larger than the failings of a few incompetent/compromised individuals in the present government.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 05 Feb 2009 20:37

X-posting. Finally Shiv shankar Menon comes out and says it. No more pussyfooting about "non state acting miscreants".

ISI linked to 26/11, attack planned in Pak, says India

Describing ‘organisers’ of Mumbai and Kabul Embassy attacks as ‘clients and creations’ of Pakistan's ISI

India also indicated its opposition to the sale of arms to Pakistan by the US and others in the name of fight against terrorism and extremism

act as ‘whisky to an alcoholic, a drug reinforcing an addiction’.

we, in India, are next to the epicentre of international terrorism in Pakistan {wow. Did he get carried away after reading BRF ?}

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 05 Feb 2009 22:19

JE Menon wrote:If not, if we let this attack slide, as I said before, we do not really deserve to survive as a nation. But we will, until these attacks eventually result in a total loss of confidence in the state and leads to its collapse. I won't cry for it, and don't care to be a citizen of a country which does not have the gumption to defend itself and deter its enemies in a manner as public as the attacks upon it.

JEM,
India's enemies have always relished the disintegration/destruction of India in many ways. No matter how agonizing the present situation of non-action by the present government, India's well-wishers, at least, should desist from wishing the same.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2009 22:37

A few pages ago I said that one of the aims of TSP is to shatter India. And by staying together that aim is defeated. Victory is when the last battle is fought and won by India. So long as India holds together that is a win. So no more of the self-abnegation talk.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 05 Feb 2009 23:52

OTOH, ramanaji, even a hardcore "India! rah! rah!" type like me cannot justify defending what has so far been a total failure of leadership. So, I say, if 2 months from now, there is an awesome "response", does that excuse the past 2 months of bumbling?

No, I don't think so. There may be good plans, and someone deep inside GOI may know them. But the inability to provide any meaningful sense of leadership is a very real symptom of impending disaster unless there are massive changes at the top of the Indian government, and the various State governments.

Basically, war has been visited upon us, our people have been brutalized and killed in our border villages, border towns, forest areas, and in so many of our cities all over India. The Indian government has chosen to allow this to continue.

If India is in danger of breaking up today, it is not because of Pakistan, it is because of the crooks in the leadership. Sorry I have to say that, but that is how I see it. I cannot any longer accept that India is led by good, smart people who have the vision or courage to do what is necessary to steer the nation, instead of just bumbling along from day to day, with only elections and petty politics as their priorities.

If MMS & Co HONESTLY believe that "inaction is the best form of action to deal with today's threats" then they need to articulate that clearly, and have it debated. If the real issue is lack of military preparedness to defend the nation, then I want to know why it came to that despite what outsiders perceive to the biggest buildup and modernization in decades, while our adversaries have been in constant downward slide.

Are the American and British governments imposing severe threats on India in order to restrain action? Then I want that revealed. In 1965 the Johnson Administration of the US tried using PL480 food aid to armtwist India into giving the Paki terrorists what they wanted - and could not get in war. At that time India was on the verge of famine, so this was no small threat.

My parents' generation told the US to elevate themselves. They went hungry until India became a net food exporter. Just what is the US or UQ able to threaten today that is worse than starvation? Nuke India? Well.. in 1971 they threatened exactly that, and Indians told them to warm themselves.

So what is this government's excuse? They think the communist chinese are going to invade us? They need to let Indians know. In 1962 onwards, Indians trained in the NCC etc., and I believe Indians will fight back if told the truth in time to prepare.

I'll listen. But instead we have the tripe coming from Pranab and KS Narayanan and other babus. They seem to be genuflecting to foreigners while ignoring the people for whom they are supposed to work - the villager in Kashmir or the commuter in Mumbai or the street vendor in Varanasi or Ahmedabad or Bangalore or Coimbatore or Agartala or Guwahati.

Making excuses or failing to criticize that, or to expose these shameless crooks, is not love for India. I say let the GOI-bashing go on, full

Maybe somebody will tell the babus what people who love India think of them.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Feb 2009 00:21

Folks looking for response ought to understand there have been coup inside ruling, governing elite circle .Rajmata,Rajpitah/Rajukmar/Rajkumari, Pitahma/s etc are either compromised or have been lost to DIE factor. It is obvious that political leaders dont want military reponse as they will loose their rotton,ill gotton gains and previlages.Old leadership had vision and hopefully new one will have the vision and confidence.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Feb 2009 00:29

>>The comparisons to 1971 are erroneous.

I'm talking only about the time lag... March/December...

Meanwhile, I insist that a country that does not have the will to defend itself and attack an enemy that does not hesitate to attack it, does not deserve to survive, whether it is India or not. That is exactly what happened in the past, and if we do not tackle this menace by destroying the enemy, that is exactly what will happen again. It is not rocket science.

It is only a question of how we do it, and in that for the moment I'm prepared to be patient and wait for a response. I believe it is inevitable. On that count I have more faith in the state than what seems a majority on the forum.

We know that India is bigger than this and that and so on... thanx for the update.

In the meantime, please do not let me interrupt - do return to the abuse of sundry government officials. At least it makes humorous reading, occasionally.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Feb 2009 00:40

>>India's enemies have always relished the disintegration/destruction of India in many ways.

And the sun rises in the east.

>>No matter how agonizing the present situation of non-action by the present government, India's well-wishers, at least, should desist from wishing the same.

It is not a wish. It is a statement of belief. I do not believe India (or any other country) deserves to survive as a nation if it is not capable of defending its civilisation, its people, if it does not return violence with violence, if it does not deter its enemies. I do not want an India that is prepared to live cowed down, which accepts being the object of violence, until such time that the externally inspired violence leads to a collapse of the nation. That is my belief. You are free to yours.

But I am prepared to wait for the state's response, and I am confident it is coming.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2009 00:56

N^3, I understand your feelings. My only input is that its not inaction/incapability alone that is driving the govt response.

In 1993 S.B. Chavan said it best as to why India did not invade TSP after the Mumbai bomb blasts even after finding all those detonators eveidence. He said that TSP has very powerful backers and we dont have the wherewithal to respond to them.
This is still true. Realizing this the aim should be to thwart the war aims of all these three entities.

Despite all the talk and treaties, US is still backing TSP and sees India as a potential competeitor.

About PRC everyone knows. The unknown unknown is what will be PRC response to an allout Indian attack on TSP?

After 1993 they augmented TSP's delivery systems on a double quick scehdule. And in 1998 even provided their own weapons to be tested by TSP to formalize the nuke status.

So my point is we dont know what the picture from North Block.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Feb 2009 01:05

RajeshA wrote:From the various statements of Rahul Gandhi till date, at least he does appear to have some sense of intelligence and patriotism, and is not any less qualified to be PM, than the other 100,000 politicians in India.

apparently not enough interest in matters to be able to complete the full form of IAEA (the day after he delivered that ground shaking speech to the parliament on the nuclear debate)

His sense of patriotism also doesn't prevent him from partying well into the morning of 28/11 at a friends farmhouse near dilli , the rest of the nation was also awake but for different reasons.

RajeshA wrote: I don't think it should really matter, whether he belongs to the dynasty or not, but rather whether he has what it takes to be a leader.

doesn't matter does it ??
he will be duly hoisted on India's firmament by his baap ka party.

what do our opinions matter ?

/sorry for the rant. It's a one-off, so plz forgive me.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Feb 2009 01:15

ramana wrote:About PRC everyone knows. The unknown unknown is what will be PRC response to an allout Indian attack on TSP?

After 1993 they augmented TSP's delivery systems on a double quick scehdule. And in 1998 even provided their own weapons to be tested by TSP to formalize the nuke status.

So my point is we dont know what the picture from North Block.

India should become irrational player to break this vicious alliance. No one want to play damaging game where every one loose in the end. PRC wont like to loose its economic progress of last 3 decades.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2009 01:20

Just being irrational is not enough. One should have capability that can be used in an irrational manner.

Unfortunately due to the economic crisis of the early 90s, the modernizaton plans were slowed down and never revived. So no teeth and the repeated under performance of those in charge of R&D also didnt help. Meantime political class went to lunch on hamburgers.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 06 Feb 2009 01:21

Newsweek: Why Mumbai attack wasn't India's 9/11 - Sunil Khilnani

Read the entire article for all the gems of wisdom. Looks at the issue purely from western perspective with some pro-india statements thrown in.

...
But addressing symbolic wrongs won't be enough. As a government commission documented in 2006, the conditions of India's Muslims are dire. Although they represent 13.4 percent of the population, they make up only 4 percent of its undergraduates, 5 percent of government employees and 7 percent of legislators. Nearly 40 percent of urban Muslims live in poverty, a larger number than even the worst-off Hindu castes. Improving their prospects must begin with early intervention: helping more Muslim children, especially girls, attend school. And it must extend to policies that seek to link them to India's growing economy—by granting them easier access to credit, for example.

Yet even if India were able to resolve these internal issues, it's still unlikely terrorism would cease. That's because India's largest problem lies just beyond its threshold—in Pakistan.

Pakistan today vexes much of the world, but it most endangers both India's immediate security and its future development. To many of Pakistan's radicals, India is even more threatening than America, the Great Satan. India is democratic, secular, culturally similar to Pakistan—and right next door. It is also an easier target than the United States.

Despite these many dangers, so far India has refused to respond to 11/26 with a wave of militarism—another contrast with America after 9/11. While the Indian home minister has given Islamabad and Washington a dossier cataloging Pakistani links to the attackers, the war spirit in India has thus far been relatively muted. This speaks less to India's national temperament than to a paucity of options. Indians are generally unwilling to address the problem of Pakistan head on, preferring to leave their nemesis to its chief paymaster and handler, Washington. This approach has generally suited the United States, since it has a major stake in restraining India's responses.

Indian diplomats have tried to mobilize international pressure on Pakistan and asked for the extradition of 20 suspects. Yet more than two months after the attacks, these efforts have produced little. Still, there's plenty more India could and should do; it has far more options besides all-out military action or the continuation of a rather fruitless dialogue with successive Pakistani governments. India needs to develop a richer repertoire of policies. And building that repertoire must start from the premise that it is increasingly implausible to treat Pakistan as a sovereign state. If there ever was such a unified entity, it no longer exists. Pakistan is in multiple wars with itself, fractured between its civilian government, its powerful military, the intelligence services and a proliferating array of armed extremist groups.

Pakistan's leaders have thrived by two basic tactics: threatening that all will go to the dogs if they are ousted (Musharraf reaped rich rewards from the United States with this line) and pleading that the government is new and fragile and must be given a chance to get on course (the current line of President Asif Ali Zardari). But in more than 60 years, Pakistan has never been able to establish a normal pattern of governance or to assert sovereignty over its own territory. India's most urgent task will thus be to minimize the degree to which Pakistan can pose threats—to its neighbors, to Europe and the United States and, finally, to itself. That will require India to work more assertively with the West, and to work both with and—where necessary—against Pakistan. It will also require the United States to pay greater heed to India's interests. Investing in the fragile Zardari regime is probably futile. The military dominates Pakistan, and it is the generals whom India must convince to stop supporting terrorism.

...
Khilnani is the author of “The Idea of India” and director of South Asian studies at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Feb 2009 01:23

And the less said about Rahul and David's Excellent Adventure in Rural India, the better...

We can be fairly certain that there is no way in hell either Rahul or his mother would be anywhere near where they are had it not been for marriage into the Gandhi family...

But it is our shame, i.e. of the people of India who repeatedly keeps electing the party representatives. Of even more toe-curling embarrassment is the way in which Congress minions fawn, beg and scrape to get the tiniest of positive gestures... I cannot get out of my mind the way Kapil Sibal and Mani Shankar Aiyar were comparing SoniaG to Jesus and Buddha for her decision not to take up the post of PM...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2009 01:33

Dont be fooled by those two toadies. They will do a Brutus given half a chance!
or "be carfeul of how low they bend, for they might be trying to pullthe carpet from under your feet!"

However I am not surprised by Khilnani's work. There is a generation of DIE who are in US and UK, who dctate what India should think and are promoted as sane voices of India. Compare this 'intellectual' with Ashley Tellis who was more pro India in the recent hearings.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Feb 2009 01:33

About PRC everyone knows. The unknown unknown is what will be PRC response to an allout Indian attack on TSP?

After 1993 they augmented TSP's delivery systems on a double quick scehdule. And in 1998 even provided their own weapons to be tested by TSP to formalize the nuke status.

So my point is we dont know what the picture from North Block.

My point is very simple, ramana and JEM. I want to see the GOI at its highest levels come and say that in so many words, and explain it loud and clear in street Hindi to the Indian population - and ask for support.

This business of assuming that Indians are cowards who put a few paise above the need to solve problems, is the humiliating and counterproductive aspect of today's leadership that I find intolerable. It's not about one party - in 1999 the GOI should have come out and asked the same question about the IC hijacking:

If we raid the airport, the hostages may be killed. Then we will have to take out Pakistan and Afghanistan's regimes, and it will mean war. Are you ready to face that?

The answer from the people would have made Musharraf get the plane and hostages returned to Dilli in a second, instead of India having to buy them back and releasing terrorists. Come to think of it, 9/11 would have been averted.

Same today: I want to hear MMS etc. ask the question to the people flat out, and lay out the precise extent of the duplicity from Unkil, Poodle and of course the commies. Were this to happen, or even be seen as imminent, my guess is that there will be a massive backpedaling as these entities weigh the cost of getting 1.1 billion Indians mad at them and see the obvious: Sex with Prostitutistan ain't worth it.

In the case of the PRC, such honesty from GOI would result in the utter destruction of the Commies' power inside India. In the case of the US, losses in goodwill would be intolerable, and there would be a high cost for the GOTUS to pay even inside the US as people ask what the heck the White House is playing.

It is precisely the lack of articulation from India's leadership, which is hiding the truth from the people who elected it, that emboldens our enemies and makes our "friends" take India so much for granted.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Feb 2009 01:45

>>I want to see the GOI at its highest levels come and say that in so many words, and explain it loud and clear in street Hindi to the Indian population - and ask for support.

I too wish it were so N. But we have a fairly good understanding of government. There is zero chance that it's going to do that. It is the nature of the beast, unfortunately. Not saying it's right, just that that's the way it is and probably going to be for a while at least. Only public opinion can change this...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2009 01:48

MMS doest have to ask that question. He does not answer to the public as he is an appointed PM. He has never shown any inclination to answer to the people of India.
I believe Sonia Gandhi is currently travelling the country asking that question. I suspect she will get her challenge very soon from TSP. Read the Ashok Mehta article on "not optionless". There is rumor that US and GOI have a deal that TSP will not carry out another attack before May elections. The experts put the chances of another attack at 70:30 or 60:40. So the deal was to reduce the odds.

So she is going around making brave speeches. Lets see.
----
N^3, is the public ready to drop its caste preference and vote nationalist? Not necessarily for NDA.

Come back when it does.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Feb 2009 01:56

Ramana Ji,
let the political leaders be brave and honest and ask this question to public and find out the answer.At least the answer can be the base line to build the society, country and policies. Right from 47 , no one has ask the indians what they want or aspire to be not what politicians decide about Her destiny.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 06 Feb 2009 03:14

Narayanan,

The Indian people were silent when the relatives of those in plane were mobbing Indian Elite to give anything to get the relatives back.
There was no equivalent mob of people asking not to give in to demands.
Maybe BR Forum members can become that mob next time.

Cross Posting from Strategic leadership for the future of India

The below is article on what happened during hijacking. The reason is, it looks like only military families show resilience, guts and nationalism. Rest of India has become too soft and self centered. It could work very well for a country like Canada or Australia, New Zealand, but given India's world famous neighbors, a new thinking is required.

http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2008/12/ ... ed-at.html

Quote:
“We want our relatives back. What difference does it make to us what you have to give the hijackers?” a man shouted. “We don’t care if you have to give away Kashmir,” a woman screamed and others took up the refrain, chanting: “Kashmir de do, kuchh bhi de do, hamare logon ko ghar wapas lao.” Another woman sobbed, “Mera beta… hai mera beta…” and made a great show of fainting of grief.

...
On another evening, there was a surprise visitor at the PMO: The widow of Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja, whose plane was shot down during the Kargil war. She insisted that she should be taken to meet the relatives of the hostages. At Race Course Road, she spoke to mediapersons and the hostages’ relatives, explaining why India must not be seen giving in to the hijackers, that it was a question of national honour, and gave her own example of fortitude in the face of adversity.

narayanan wrote:

The answer from the people would have made Musharraf get the plane and hostages returned to Dilli in a second, instead of India having to buy them back and releasing terrorists. Come to think of it, 9/11 would have been averted.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 06 Feb 2009 03:19

Indian army 'backed out' of Pakistan attack

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 06 Feb 2009 03:34

That's sensible only if whatever gaps were identified are fixed in a time bound manner say one year or so.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/may/24akd.htm

The then army chief, General [later Field Marshal] Maneckshaw twice turned down the request of the then prime minister to attack East Pakistan.

The first was in March: Maneckshaw said he was not ready. The second was in August, when he pointed out that his tanks would get bogged down in East Pakistan because of the monsoon. Finally, in November, he said he was ready, and proved it with the Indian Army's quick success in liberating Bangladesh in just 14 days!

durgesh wrote:Indian army 'backed out' of Pakistan attack

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2009 03:39

durgesh wrote:Indian army 'backed out' of Pakistan attack

The writer is blaming the army for a decision that the politicians took- an attack on TSP would lead to a short war and possible loss of territory. They had themselves chose not to equip the Army as all the examples he gives are ones in which the army has no control.

The game from AK Anthony onwards seems to be to blame the Army and pretend as if they just came to know of the shortages, while they actively worked to prevent procurements all the four/five years they were in power.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 06 Feb 2009 04:08

I blame the GOI for what happened in 1999 too - it was precisely because the GOI did not come out and articulate the question that Musharraf got away with the hijacking and the murder of Rupin Katyal.

When the relatives mobbed the Elite etc. it was because the GOI came across as being as "404" as they do today. Nothing has changed in 10 years in that respect. They should have come out and laid out the choices, which would have driven up Musharraf's trouser-laundry bill through the roof and ended the incident right away.

Incidentally, the FBI etc came by then too to "share intelligence" and "help in the investigation" and declared up and down that the murdering terrorists would never get away with it, that they would be "brought to justice" etc.

Well.. it's only been a decade, no hurry, they'll all die if we wait long enough....

Not that it is the FBI's job to avenge the death of Rupin Katyal, but I just remembered the hot air declarations of that time.

So ramana, I am not getting into NDA vs, UPA (at least not on this thread). The problem is GOI mealy-mouthedness and spinelessness, and their inbred contempt for the citizens of India, trained from their traditions of being butt-kissers to the British. The solution is right here - internet forums like this. We have to keep reminding the babus that they are missing a couple of spheres.