Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 10 Jun 2012 15:55

Absolutely no idea of how one would do it unlike how it has been done above. As for the ad hoc thing, I agree it might be just my SDRE complex. But, really I would like to know how the Americans make do without it in the gulf (or maybe they do have it and I just don't know, I am more than happy to be corrected). I am wondering if its due to the nature of the sand in the Thar desert.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Jun 2012 16:55

Arun Menon wrote:Absolutely no idea of how one would do it unlike how it has been done above. As for the ad hoc thing, I agree it might be just my SDRE complex. But, really I would like to know how the Americans make do without it in the gulf (or maybe they do have it and I just don't know, I am more than happy to be corrected). I am wondering if its due to the nature of the sand in the Thar desert.

Read this pdf
Start from page 11 last paragraph.
https://www.corrdefense.org/Academia%20 ... 06T075.pdf

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jun 2012 17:14

not sure about the usefulness of silicone rubber sheets? i am sure about it can definitely withstand dessert heat, but not on the tensile and weathering properties especially to take on consistent impacts from fine dust particles that can be razor sharp at high speeds(storms).

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 10 Jun 2012 18:19

shiv wrote: Read this pdf
Start from page 11 last paragraph.
https://www.corrdefense.org/Academia%20 ... 06T075.pdf

Very interesting, It seems as though they have the same problems (as expected). I didn't see any specific counter measures they have taken in the document besides increased maintenance. If that is the case, the fabric is more or less a more clever countermeasure against the sand (ad hoc or not). Anyway, it does make sense that the Americans would waste money with more maintenance and more research for a cooler looking protection

, as they always do. Anyway, seems that the fabric thing is a low-cost solution that someone with clever thinking came up with. I would really love to know if it has any official designation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Jun 2012 22:42

About "cooler looking" - I think the Americans just did not anticipate those conditions, just as they did not anticipate "hot and high" the way the IAF does. We tend to be informed through America's robust propaganda machine that they are ready for anything anywhere and in this case I suspect you are approaching the issue with the attitude that "The Americans surely must have a solution by now and it is likely cooler looking because they spend more money on such things" No such information exists in the public domain that I know of. As far as my knowledge goes TFTA mechanical parts are as badly affected by fine dust as the janata model.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 10 Jun 2012 23:05

Military solutions are meant to be functional even if they are not good looking.

Plus what info do we have about that black cover to brand it as a jugaad ? For all we know, it might be a well researched product to keep dust away (and not off the shelf black rubber sheet used as an ad-hoc measure).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jun 2012 23:10

the M60 tank had this feature as did many others like merkava(kept under cover now)
http://www.wallpaperpimper.com/wallpape ... 24x768.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... sany-2.jpg

not seen on leopard2 A4, or the omani challenger tanks

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 10 Jun 2012 23:27

Arjun tank does have this covering, while I don't remember seeing it in T90. You can see it in Defence Expo pictures too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Jun 2012 23:29

both our t72 and t90 tanks have this at base of barrel area
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-olurSM2KrLg/T ... 2Bline.jpg

if a cheap piece of canvas or rubber avoids a maintainence cycle costly in time, people and parts, it obviously looks a std practice across our tank fleet...

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Jun 2012 02:10

shiv wrote:About "cooler looking" - I think the Americans just did not anticipate those conditions, just as they did not anticipate "hot and high" the way the IAF does. We tend to be informed through America's robust propaganda machine that they are ready for anything anywhere and in this case I suspect you are approaching the issue with the attitude that "The Americans surely must have a solution by now and it is likely cooler looking because they spend more money on such things" No such information exists in the public domain that I know of. As far as my knowledge goes TFTA mechanical parts are as badly affected by fine dust as the janata model.

I think your right. So much for America knowing best. At least we didn't waste money, time and resources making an anti-gravity pen.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 11 Jun 2012 08:19

Gurneesh wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Sorry, but in this case, there is a problem with the army. The Arjun weighs, looks and feels the way it is because IA GSQR wanted it that way. As for the terrain and weight - well, the ground pressure of Arjun is lesser than T-90. It can go places where even T-90 cannot. BRF has a detailed history of discussion on the Arjun topic. You might want to scan that.
Arjun has lower ground pressure than T90 which means it will be better in spongy terrain (like marshes, sand etc).

But a bridge sees only gross weight (and not ground pressure) and T90 might have an advantage here.

So we should have bridges that can support Arjun's Weight. Arjun is better than t90 in its firepower accuracy, also being indigenous, it provides far better control over many aspects like customization according to Indian needs, Maintenance etc.

T90 had problems when it was tested in desert and we had to call Russian guys to look into that problem.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 11 Jun 2012 11:36

Singha wrote:both our t72 and t90 tanks have this at base of barrel area
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-olurSM2KrLg/T ... 2Bline.jpg

if a cheap piece of canvas or rubber avoids a maintainence cycle costly in time, people and parts, it obviously looks a std practice across our tank fleet...

Same with LeClerc

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2012 11:51

that settles it - atleast one tfta western heavy does it, so it "must be good because the goras do it"

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Jun 2012 12:09

I think that fabric like thingy covers the area where the barrel meets the turret, most probably to protect dust and moisture from coming in contact with the moving parts/bearings.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jun 2012 14:04

The covers are known as Thermal Sleeve it prevents gun barrels being thermally distorted due to firing and environmental conditions , check it out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_sleeve

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 Jun 2012 03:09

'Arjun Mark II' tank trial begins in Rajasthan

JAIPUR: The trial of 'Arjun Mark II' tanks has started at Rajasthan's Pokhran field firing range, the Defence Reasearch and Development Organisation today said.

"The trials started on Friday last and will continue for the next two months. The ongoing trials will mainly focus on 19 parametres," DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta said in a release here.

"Indian Army accepted 124 Arjuns into service but the Army has made a follow-on order conditional upon 93 improvements to the Arjun, including 19 major modifications,' defence spokesperson S D Goswami said.

The major upgrades would be missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to engage targets effectively at night, containerisation of the ammunition, enhanced main weapon penetration; additional ammunition types, explosive reactive armour, an advanced air-defence gun to engage helicopters.

Other upgrades are an enhanced Auxiliary power unit providing 8.5 KW (from 4.5 KW) and an improved gun barrel, changes in the commander's panoramic sight with eye safe LRF, night vision capability including for driver, digital control harness,' he said.

This tank is the successor to Arjun Mark 1 Tank. An Arjun tank is operated by a four-member crew comprising a commander-cum-navigator, gunner, loader and driver.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jun 2012 08:27

^so what are they going to pour into the crank shaft this time?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 25 Jun 2012 08:50

^^^ Exactly. For the IA to complain that a Renk transmission wasn't good enough is like complaining a BMW M5 is a lousy car we want a Lada

This time the insane assertion blew up in their face when a Renk technician arrived in India and determined their transmssion was tampered with. I suggest the Arjun Mk II be put thru the same rigorous trials the Tin can-90 was... none

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Jun 2012 10:34

Tejas and others please dont display your ignorance when it comes to the testing that the T-90 has been subjected to by the IA before it bought it. Any sane person knows that IA is the most professional force when it comes to acquiring weapons and they apply the same yardstick to domestic/foreign systems

I am setting up a website www.t90testinginindia.com along the lines of http://www.rahulgandhiachievements.com/ hope you will shut you mouth then and not talk bad about T90

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 25 Jun 2012 11:02

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Jun 2012 11:39

SaiK wrote:^so what are they going to pour into the crank shaft this time?

They are going to pour in the rants and fulminations of Shir Pallam Raju.

May be the oily politicos words can provide the necessary lubrication.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 25 Jun 2012 19:27

I think some Yindu nationalists have sabotaged both of suryag's websites already.

abhishekgoel · Post by **abhishekgoel** » 26 Jun 2012 13:53

My personal experience is that the bribes are quite prevalent in IA like all other Government organisations. Sub standard goods are often passed after due consideration.

In the dealing between PSUs the personal consideration vanishes. So the officials have motivation to go for Russian tanks in exchange for few gifts. (Russian do have great links and experience; insiders do say that in 70s many of Indian government ministers and officials were on Soviet pay roll).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jun 2012 18:13

As a honest citizen, one can't expect IA to be clean circle, when they are operating on a Universal corruption set(U). The honest afsars must be seen as U' first. For that, one would like to see a larger set of honest citizens. /OT.. but very valid in most threads... even for the distant future.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jun 2012 15:52

Russia Nears Tank Ammo Deal With India

Russia is nearing a deal with India on manufacture and delivery of advanced tank ammunition, Rosoboronexport, a state-run arms exporter, said on Friday.

“The first round of negotiations on the delivery of 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition has been completed and the second round - on its licensed manufacture in India - will start on Monday,” company deputy head Igor Sevastyanov said.

He did not specify the volume of deliveries, only saying it was “big.”

Russia has already started building a joint venture in India to manufacture rockets for Smerch multiple rocket launch systems, he said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jun 2012 17:03

Russia, France to Jointly Build Armored Vehicle

"We have a project under the aegis of a Russian-French group for land forces, which I head," Sevastyanov said. "Now we are working on development of some vehicles with a French base but with Russian weapons and Russian turrets.”

“The vehicle should appear in the near future, around 18 months. We have a draft design and a model has been made," he added.

He said France is also interested in co-production, with Russia, of an armored personnel carrier to be sold to third countries.

It may also be used by the French or Russian armed forces, he said, adding that the new vehicle would have to meet both Russian and NATO standards.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Jun 2012 17:46

^^If this will get the Russians off our back concerning the FMBT, then its welcome indeed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jul 2012 00:51

BMP and BTR successor plans reveled

Kurganets-25 APC
Boomerang APC

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2012 07:57

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80bea ... ackground/

Nice video presentation... cool stuff

prasadha · Post by **prasadha** » 02 Jul 2012 08:53

Hi

I met a Chaiwallah from HVF recently and he mentioned there are issues with Arjun's suspension due to increased weight of Mark II. He was not very enthusiastic about Army's response for Mark II.

Can somebody clarify if it is true?

Thanks

Prasad

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Jul 2012 09:09

^^ No clue on the suspension part but wont be surprised if true ( about IA disinterest in Mk-II/III/xx )

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 02 Jul 2012 12:53

Funny how Chaiwallahs never predicted Arjun beating the pants off the T-90.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 02 Jul 2012 16:08

no official statement on arjun trial yet.

i am not convinced that drdo missed to address changes in suspension when they knew weight is going up!

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 02 Jul 2012 16:37

I find it weird that a tank which was said to have WEIGHT as its major drawback is being spec-ed for even more weight followed by all the issues that a heavy vehicle is expected to have (transmission wear/tear, mobility,etc). Army's earlier criticism would have sounded more credible if they had asked for reduction in weight, the T90 OTOH is doing fine and dandy (in terms of orders) in spite of significantly lower protection levels than Arjun.

Are Arjun tanks expected to be used in a totally opposite role as T90? I even do not know what this "opposite role" is, just trying to guess based on the major differences in the protection levels of these tanks.

Quite difficult to understand this Arjun saga.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 02 Jul 2012 19:55

Austin wrote:BMP and BTR successor plans reveled

Kurganets-25 APC
Boomerang APC

So now IA will come with a new "immediate" requirement for an APC/ICV. Since the local product "cannot" meet the requirements we have to request Russia to sell it to us

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2012 20:22

they can use the same material used here:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19232

to reduce the weight for arjun mk2

btw, I think this is still looking like T90:Arjun::1:100 from IA's order book PoV. It may be reverse in other terms - cost, performance, operations and maintenance.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jul 2012 08:51

prasadha wrote:Hi

I met a Chaiwallah from HVF recently and he mentioned there are issues with Arjun's suspension due to increased weight of Mark II. He was not very enthusiastic about Army's response for Mark II.

Can somebody clarify if it is true?

Thanks

Prasad

The increased weight of the Mk2 was to be handled with an improved suspension. Read this article by Ajai Shukla on the Arjun Mk2's improved suspension

I can imagine that there could be a few problems problems, but definitely not a game stopper. Certainly nothing that cannot be dealt with.

The Arjun Mark II features an enhanced version of the Arjun's well-proven hydro-pneumatic suspension, with the new one designed for a 70-tonne load. This is part of an improved "running gear", including the road wheel mountings, the road wheels, axle arms and shock absorbers.

The new suspension has already been tested in the recent trials and run for 1,300 kilometers. In order to obtain an accurate comparison with the earlier suspension, the trial tank was fitted with both: the old suspension on the left side and the new one on the right. The photographs --- in which the new suspension still looks new while the old suspension looks somewhat the worst for wear (not surprising; 1,300 km is a lot of running!) --- point to a successful upgrade.

The Arjun's suspension will be practically all-Indian. The road wheels, which continue to be built by Sundaram Industries, have been improved with better manufacturing and bonding processes for the rubber. Tractor Engineeers Ltd (TENGL), an L&T company, is doing parallel development of the Arjun track (imported so far), including development of one of the most difficult running gear technologies: the track pins.

I am amused at the many who appear to believe that the Arjun is "built entirely of foreign components" that are "hammered together in India". This kind of view is rooted in a deep lack of understanding of the processes of indigenisation. It is true that almost 60% of the cost of the Arjun goes on imported components. Practically all of that goes on just three components --- the power pack; the gunner's main sight (GMS); and the gun control equipment (GCE). Almost all the Arjun's other 10,000-odd component are sourced from Indian industry, which is rising to the challenge. More support from the government, in terms of better procurement procedures, would accelerate this.

see the difference in the 2 suspensions- the older one is quite obviously in bad shape compared to the new one after 1300 kms of running.

new

old

I'm marking the last para because it goes over what we've gone over in the ALH discussion as well where vic said that the ALH has very little to do with HAL.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Jul 2012 13:15

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120705.htm

Russia has produced quite a long list of famous dancers, so it seemed quite fitting that the country organised a 'tank ballet' at a recently-held arms expo, choreographed by none other than the legendary Bolshoy Theatre.

According to New York Times, five battle tanks -- the T-80 and T-90A battle tanks --started their choreography set to techno music, then moved on to tango and an excerpt from Bizet's opera Carmen.

The dance was produced by Andrey Melanyin, a choreographer for the Bolshoy Theater, according to Russia Today

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 05 Jul 2012 13:54

The MK-2 Arjun will prove it self in the next few months, lot of efforts have gone in and after trails, IA will certainly order 1000 more pronto. The need right now is heavy.

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Jul 2012 18:40

As you are referring to me, my stand is that HAL had nothing to do with the design, development and setting up the production line of ALH. While it is completely opposite with Arjun, DRDO is making full effort to indigenise every part, somewhere they have succeeded and somewhere delayed and somewhere failed. But is very different then just putting on a label on a product where even the seats are imported.