Formation and Evolution of Pakistan : The Real Story

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by Johann »

surinder wrote:I am not sure how deep their faith in Babas/Pirs/Sufis really is if that is what their actions. But I must stop, this is stuff for Islamism kind of threads.
Its a fair question Surinder, and I think it is relevant to the Pakistan story.

I think one clue to the answer lies among the Punjabi Muslims left for Africa, Fiji, Malaya/Singapore and the Caribbean first as bonded farm labour and then as workers before the emergence of the Pakistan movement in the 1930s.

The vast majority of these PMs do not see themselves as Pakistanis today, but rather as Punjabis and Muslims, or even in many cases as Indians and Muslims.

Someone like Sanjay Badri Maharaj, or those from Malaysia, Singapore, Kenya or South Africa, etc might be able to speak in more detail, but they really dont seem to have absorbed the same kind of anti-Hindu, anti-Indian, anti-Semitic, anti-Western hatred that has become synonymous with Pakistani emmigrant communities.

I think much of that has to do with the fact that these were rural Punjabis who only knew their folk Islam, and have remained insulated from the changes that subsequently swept through much of northern India.
Much before 1947 (my Grandmother tells) there Muslim gangs who would go chanting in Pakjabi cities "Pakistan Banawange, Khoon diyan nadiyan bahawangey" (We will make Pakistan, we will make rivers of blood flow). This same so-called followers of Sufis/Pirs/Babas had no problem initiating the rioting, killing, burning to ethnically cleanse their lands of Kaafirs. Then the same followers of Sufis/Pirs/Babas foisted Talibums on Afghanistan, Jihadis in J&K, Jihadis practically everwhere else, killing Bengalis & Baloochs & Ahmadiyas.


Something did happen in 1930s, particularly in urban Punjab.

In the first couple of decades of the 20th century Ahmadis were amongst many of the most prominent Muslim Punjabi families despite the condemnation of Deobandis and Barelwis in the Doab. Despite this you had Iqbal praising Ahmadis as the best kind of Sunnis to be found - perhaps since two of his uncles had joined, and one of his sons was educated by Ahmadis by them. Yet by the mid 1930s Iqbal was using some pretty harsh language and endorsing demands that they should be legally stripped of their claims to be Muslims. Everything I've seen and heard suggests that the younger generation of urban, privileged Muslim Punjabis educated in Urdu in places like Lahore rejected their fathers politics, and their approach religion in favour of imported ideas.

This process of increasingly communal identities wasnt limited to urban Muslims either. I dont know why, but the Akali Dal and other Sikh-only parties grew fast in the 1930s among Sikhs in the Punjab, much faster than all-India parties like the INC.
There is a view that Pakjabi version of Islaam is Sufi or Pir Baba based. This is often advertised as the inherent softness of Pukjabi Islaam.
Cultures can change for the better or worse, but if Punjab's Sufi Islam wasnt relatively mellow for much of its history, why did tough tribes like the Rajputs and Jats become less threatening, and more easily dominated, instead of more aggressive? Where was the zeal of the convert?
Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by Johann »

surinder wrote:
Johann wrote:and Iqbal was about as anti-colonial as you could get.
I might have missed the news of Iqbal being sent to Kaala Paani at Andaman Nicobar, or his being lathi charged and beaten or hanged to death. How much time did he spend in prision for his anti-colonialism?
Surinder, why didnt any of things happen to Tagore (d. 1941) either? Or Vivekananda? Yet their ability to frame critiques of the status quo, and to instil a sense of common identity and goals, and disseminate them in inspiring language marked the beginning of an effective anti-colonial movement

Colonial policy treated active political agitation against the Raj very differently from intellectual and cultural agitation.

Perhaps its an arbitrary separation, or perhaps the colonial authorities recognised from experience they didnt have the manpower, time and energy to police ideas as well as actions.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59848
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Surinder and Shravan, Have you guys read JLN's "Discovery of India" as non Indians? 8)

if you read it and think about it please ask yourself

1) Who is the audience?
2) What is the narrative being spun?
3) Why is the narrative like that which is not close to the truth?
4) How does one reconcile it with the motto of "Satyameva jayate"?

Thanks, ramana

thse will let you understand JLN's foreign policy"
Why did he seek Dominion status?
Why did he not leave teh Commonwealth?

etc.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25109
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by SSridhar »

surinder wrote:One point I want to point is that isn't the partion of Bengal in 1901 an early sign of British thnking?
surinder, I held that same view for a long time. However, I now realize that it probably wasn't so. Curzon, it seems, was genuinely interested in making administrative changes to be able to respond to situations better. He had also yanked the province of Berar (present day Vidharba ?), for example, off the Nizam and joined it with the Central Provinces in circa 1902 because of the Nizam's mis-management. I therefore feel, the partition of Bengal was probably not with that same sinister motive with which Curzon's successor Minto embraced the Muslims and the assurances he gave them.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Airavat »

A_Gupta wrote:Any theory also has to explain the fact that Lord Mountbatten encouraged the {princely} States to join either India or Pakistan and not exercise any option for Independence.
Pakistan could not be created even after the 1946 elections because the Muslim League failed to form the governments in the two provinces considered absolutely critical in British strategic calculations: NWFP and Punjab.

Perhaps anticipating this result the Labour govt. had sent the Cabinet Mission with its plan for the creation of a constituent assembly for framing the constitution, and the formation of an Interim Government. The plan rejected any division of India to ensnare the INC leaders, but had the infamous "grouping scheme" which could create Pakistan through the backdoor.

On the basis of their numerical majority in group B, the Muslim League legislators of Sind and Punjab could forcibly incorporate NWFP, while in Group C Muslim League members of Bengal could similarly incorporate Assam. These groups were allowed to secede from the center after 10 years and Jinnah joyously proclaimed that the plan had conceded Pakistan.....in fact the bigger Pakistan of his dreams.

However Sardar Patel had accepted the same plan with a more pragmatic objective; gaining control of the levers of power at the center, and the majority in the Constituent Assembly. The INC also believed that since Britain had always insisted that individual provinces could decide their own future, NWFP, Baluchistan, Assam, and even Punjab could breakaway from their groups either as independent or by joining the center. Patel had been given verbal assurances to this effect by Stafford Cripps.

However on 6 December 1946, at a conference in London, the "perfidious albion" revealed that the provinces could not opt out of their groups, causing outrage in India. Sardar Patel wrote to Cripps, "Al of us feel that there has been a betrayal..."

To cut a long story short Wavell was replaced by Mountbatten who persuaded INC to accept the partition of Punjab, Bengal, and Assam along the lines proposed by Wavell. He also browbeat Jinnah into accepting a truncated Pakistan. The crucial NWFP was prised away from INC hands because the third option of Independence was no longer available to the provinces; they had to join either India or Pakistan. This same option was given to the princely states, which would help INC in integrating their territory with India, more than compensating them for the territory lost to Pakistan.
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2206
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by shravan »

Johann wrote: I dont know why, but the Akali Dal and other Sikh-only parties grew fast in the 1930s among Sikhs in the Punjab, much faster than all-India parties like the INC.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurd ... m_Movement
Gurdwara Reform Movement had been launched to liberate the Sikh shrines from the control of Hindu priests.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Surinder and Shravan, Have you guys read JLN's "Discovery of India" as non Indians? 8)

if you read it and think about it please ask yourself

1) Who is the audience?
2) What is the narrative being spun?
3) Why is the narrative like that which is not close to the truth?
4) How does one reconcile it with the motto of "Satyameva jayate"?

Thanks, ramana

thse will let you understand JLN's foreign policy"
Why did he seek Dominion status?
Why did he not leave teh Commonwealth?

etc.
I brought this angle first. I have been thinking of this book for a long time.
Why would a first PM of a nation with a long ancient heritage name a book for the people of India. The only other reason is that it was for the western and Anglo world who wanted to see what was the vision of the JLN and the ruling class of India.
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by surinder »

shravan wrote:
Johann wrote: I dont know why, but the Akali Dal and other Sikh-only parties grew fast in the 1930s among Sikhs in the Punjab, much faster than all-India parties like the INC.
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Gurd ... m_Movement
Gurdwara Reform Movement had been launched to liberate the Sikh shrines from the control of Hindu priests.
Was it Hindu priests who controlled the Gurudwaras or were they British proxies?

I have written about it earlier, but let me write again. The reality of the matter is the following: When the British took over the Punjab after defeating the Sikhs in 3 Anglo-Sikh wars, they understood that a very significant challenge stood in their dominance of PUnjab from the Sikhs. Sikhs, they correctly surmised, get their militancy from their religion. So they brought all Gurudwaras under their control. Hindu Temples & Muslim Mosques were *NOT* subject to the same. They "Hindu" Mahants were nothing but British Proxies & toadies. Now these Mahants were encouraged by the British to tamper with the Gurudwaras (installing statues, changing worship etc.). This angered the Sikhs, but the anger was directed to what they saw, which was "Hindu" Mahants, not the British hand behind it.

This set the stage for a half a century of protests to get back their Gurudwaras. Notice, very carefully, the Sikh energies were now subtly redirected on a useless unproductive problem of getting their places of worshop back in their hands. Not only that, now they hate the "hindus" for altering their Gurudwara format. The situation got so bad that by 1880's or so, rumors were floating that the Golden Temple will be converted to a Christian Church or Diocese. Sikhs had by that time lost consoderable membership in their faith (their numbers were dwindling due to the exodus of many who had come to Sikhism for gains during Ranjit Singh's time). Sikhs envoys went to the British officers to clear up the rumor, but were told bluntly that that Since British had won the Punjab, they would do as they pleased with the Golden Temple.

There is an interesting story, which happened after that. The story goes that the demoralized Sikhs went to the Golden Temple and prayed to the Guru. They saw some kind of a flash of light or a Hawk (symbol of Guru Gobind Singh Ji) appear, and they took it as a sign that all will be well. The struggle for getting the Gurudwaras began.

This culminated in a very big agitation all across the Punjab. Many men, women were killed. British paronia about Sikhs would not allow them to let the Sikhs have their places of worship back. This culminated in the massacre at Nankana Sahib. The "Hindu" Mahant, with the connivance & encouragement of the British had accumulated weapons and ammo. He shot and massacred a whole lot of peaceful protestors in Nankana Sahib. The British administration was curiously silent.

But one thing about the British is that they are pragmatic people. They understood that the cost of keeping the Gurudwaras in control is getting higher than the benifit of accrued from it. So they relented and passed the Gurudwara Act. Sikhs got the control of Gurudwaras back. Apparantly Gandhi Ji sent a telegram after this to the Sikhs, since this was the peaceful demonstration.

When Jallianwala Bagh massacre happened, Gen. Dyer got a siropa (a felicitation) from the priest of Golden Temple, whose name was Arur Singh. Non-Sikhs, especially Hindus, have often taunted me about Sikhs honoring Gen. Dyer. My embarassment finally found an answer when I found out that this "Priest" was a Mahant, a British proxy. This incident was before the Gurudwara Act.

Anyways, even after the Gurudwara Act, the British retained the keys of the Toshakhana (a treasure, or museum of valuable items). When it was demanded of him to release it, the British Officer asked the Sikhs to come to his office and take it. Sikhs refused to come his office, they demanded that he come to them to hand over the keys, which he finally did.

This ultimately was the way how Sikhs & Hindus were pitted by setting up Mahants. Few realized that Mahants were British proxies. British, as usual, remained invisible, but the Hindus & Sikhs ended up colliding. The Sikh energies were channelized into an unneeded and unproductive activity. While the Sikh-British relationship remained hostile & poor, British took great pains to emphasize in rest of India of the excellent relations of the Sikhs with them. This portrayal of Sikh-British relationship was also a psy ops to isolate others from Sikhs.

One thing in conclusion: Sikhs were accustomed to frontal attacks on them. Mughals & Turks atrocities & barbarity is in plain sight. What Sikhs did not realize in 1849 (when they lost to the British) that they will be had in such subtle and manipulative manner. Sikhs were outfoxed, and outfoxed very badly. British were smart, they never took a cannon out to the Golden Temple and blow up the Harimandir. This direct frontal attacks earns you dedicated & intense enmity. The foolish task of making a frontal attack on the Sikh's Golden Temple was done by Muslims about 8-9 times, and the Hindus once.
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by surinder »

Johann wrote:
I might have missed the news of Iqbal being sent to Kaala Paani at Andaman Nicobar, or his being lathi charged and beaten or hanged to death. How much time did he spend in prision for his anti-colonialism?
Surinder, why didnt any of things happen to Tagore (d. 1941) either? Or Vivekananda? Yet their ability to frame critiques of the status quo, and to instil a sense of common identity and goals, and disseminate them in inspiring language marked the beginning of an effective anti-colonial movement

Colonial policy treated active political agitation against the Raj very differently from intellectual and cultural agitation.

Perhaps its an arbitrary separation, or perhaps the colonial authorities recognised from experience they didnt have the manpower, time and energy to police ideas as well as actions.

J, Tagore & Vivekananda are hardly in the same boat as Iqbal. Vivekananda was a mystic & a seeker of God first and foremost. He is the type of saint that periodicall appear in India and make India what India is. Tagore was more of a sage & educationist & artist, more than anything else.

Iqbal was first & last a Muslim nationalist. He merely wanted to Muslims wanted to get the old glory. By old glory all he had in mind was political domination. This domination had no role for any other religion, it held a promise of slavery. His recourse to religion is confined only to the extent that he thought that more Islaam (or more pure Islaam) would get the Muslims their domination back. He was not an anti-colonialist, except of where it encroached on Islamic domination in India.

Vivekananda's vision was universal and inspiring. He did not resort to nationalism & freedom fight in any direct way because he realized Hindus & Indians were not ready for it. His entire task was to awaken India to make it ready. His distaste for British rule was never a secret.

Iqbal is not comparable in any sense of the world to these outstanding men: neither in religious sense, nor in their catholicity, nor in their love of the nation.
Last edited by Rahul M on 10 May 2009 14:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited quote tags.
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by surinder »

ramana wrote:Prem If we had visionary leaders and been able to stave of Western interference (includes Soviet) we could have had the Asian domination we wanted. The IM are our own and we were unable to channel their energies outward to the greater Middle East as they should have been.

maybe in this century!
Dear Free Canadian Visomobile:

What you say is true, but only in a sense that it is a tautology. I cannot call it false. But every society has weaknesses, or fault lines. Societies work to deal with them. An external player who has no interest in your well being will seek to enhance these conflicts. That is ultimately the scene. Even brothers in a family have potential rifts, but exploiting those rifts is a sin in itself.

Second point is that the blame of Partition is simply not on the hands of Muslims. It is also on the hands of each and every individual who caused the British to defeat India and rule India. All the informants, all the moles, all the soldiers, all the civil servants, all the lackeys, and all the sycophants. The fault also resides with a leadership of India which chose a peculiar non-violent path to freedom: they chose beggary to get freedom, rather than snatch with the dint of their strength. Usually, when a enemy is thrown out in a war, they cannot do partitions.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

SSridhar wrote: One point I want to point is that isn't the partion of Bengal in 1901 an early sign of British thnking?

surinder, I held that same view for a long time. However, I now realize that it probably wasn't so. Curzon, it seems, was genuinely interested in making administrative changes to be able to respond to situations better. He had also yanked the province of Berar (present day Vidharba ?), for example, off the Nizam and joined it with the Central Provinces in circa 1902 because of the Nizam's mis-management. I therefore feel, the partition of Bengal was probably not with that same sinister motive with which Curzon's successor Minto embraced the Muslims and the assurances he gave them.
This point is debatable. The Colonial British were hard to understand in their motive with their double speak. They have all the language for helping the administration of the "natives"

Curzon was the first to admit the use of geo-politics and division of people and land for imperial strategic purpose. He is the architect of division of Poland in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2206
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by shravan »

surinder wrote:Was it Hindu priests who controlled the Gurudwaras or were they British proxies?
I would say Both.

I was trying to answer - Why Sikh-only parties grew fast in the 1930s among Sikhs in the Punjab.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12258
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by A_Gupta »

Airavat wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Any theory also has to explain the fact that Lord Mountbatten encouraged the {princely} States to join either India or Pakistan and not exercise any option for Independence.
Perhaps anticipating this result the Labour govt. had sent the Cabinet Mission with its plan for the creation of a constituent assembly for framing the constitution, and the formation of an Interim Government. The plan rejected any division of India to ensnare the INC leaders, but had the infamous "grouping scheme" which could create Pakistan through the backdoor.

On the basis of their numerical majority in group B, the Muslim League legislators of Sind and Punjab could forcibly incorporate NWFP, while in Group C Muslim League members of Bengal could similarly incorporate Assam. These groups were allowed to secede from the center after 10 years and Jinnah joyously proclaimed that the plan had conceded Pakistan.....in fact the bigger Pakistan of his dreams.

However Sardar Patel had accepted the same plan with a more pragmatic objective; gaining control of the levers of power at the center, and the majority in the Constituent Assembly. The INC also believed that since Britain had always insisted that individual provinces could decide their own future, NWFP, Baluchistan, Assam, and even Punjab could breakaway from their groups either as independent or by joining the center. Patel had been given verbal assurances to this effect by Stafford Cripps.
Congress resolutions from May 1946 spoke against compulsory grouping.
http://www.geocities.com/sadna_gupta/CM ... yJune.html
e.g.
The statement of the Cabinet Delegation affirms the basic principle of provincial autonomy and residuary powers vesting in the Provinces. It is further said that Provinces should be free to form groups. Subsequently, however, it is recommended that provincial representatives will divide up into Sections which 'shall proceed to settle the Provincial constitutions for the Provinces in each Section and shall also decide whether any group Constitution shall be set up for those Provinces'.

There is a marked discrepancy in these two separate provisions, and it would appear that a measure of compulsion is introduced which clearly infringes the basis principle of provincial autonomy.

In order to retain the recommendatory character of the statement, and in order to make the clauses consistent with each other, the Committee read paragraph 15 to mean that, in the first instance, the respective Provinces will make their choice whether or not to belong to the Section in which they are placed. Thus the Constituent Assembly must be considered as a sovereign body with final authority for the purpose of drawing up a Constitution and give effect to it.
Congress had come out against compulsory grouping in the famous July 10, 1946 press conference by Nehru.
http://www.geocities.com/sadna_gupta/CM ... y1946.html
Referring to grouping, Pandit Nehru said, 'The big probability is that, from any approach to the question, there will be no grouping. Obviously, Section A will decide against grouping. Speaking in betting language, there was 4 to 1 chance of the North-West Frontier Province deciding against grouping. The Group B collapses. It is highly likely that Assam will decide against grouping with Bengal, although I would not like to say what the initial decision may be, since it is evenly balanced.

But I can say with every assurance and conviction that there is going to be finally no grouping there, because Assam will not tolerate it under any circumstances whatever. Thus you see this grouping business approached from any point of view does not get on at all.'

Pandit Nehru also explained how provincial jealousies would work against grouping. Firstly, he pointed out, 'everybody outside the Muslim League was entirely opposed to grouping. In regard to this matter the Muslim League stands by itself isolated. Applying that principle you will find in the North-West Zone there is a kind of balance, more or less even of pro-grouping and anti-grouping.

'Secondly, entirely for other reasons-non-political, non-Congress, non-League-there is a good deal of feeling against grouping with the Punjab both in the North-West Frontier Provinces and Sind for economic and other reasons. That is to say, even a Muslim Leaguer in Sind dislikes the idea of grouping with the Punjab, because he fears that the Punjab will dominate Sind, the Punjab being a dominant party in that group and more aggressive and advanced in some ways. Apart from the imposed discipline of the League, both in the Frontier and in Sind, the people are unanimously against grouping because both these Provinces are afraid of being swamped by the Punjab.'
...
People like A.G. Noorani blame Partition on this conference by Nehru.

Congress reservations on the grouping plan led to Muslim League declaring Direct Action, etc..
They specifically objected to Nehru's July 10 press conference.
http://www.geocities.com/sadna_gupta/CM ... _July.html
Here is Wavell chiding Nehru, July 30
I said that the principal grievance of the League against Congress was that the statements of the Congress leaders made them believe that it was not intended to give the Group system, on the basis of which the Muslim League had agreed to join, a fair chance. I referred specially to the Congress reservations in their acceptance of the Statement of May 16th. Nehru said that the Muslim League had also made reservations.
Congress continued to stand firm against compulsory grouping.
http://www.geocities.com/sadna_gupta/CM ... ugust.html
However on 6 December 1946, at a conference in London, the "perfidious albion" revealed that the provinces could not opt out of their groups, causing outrage in India. Sardar Patel wrote to Cripps, "Al of us feel that there has been a betrayal..."
Dec 6 1946 (#165, ToP IX)
Record of Meeting held at the India Office on 6 December 1946 at 2:30 pm
Those present were: Lord Pethick-Lawrence, Sir S. Cripps, Mr Alexander, Field Marshal Viscount Wavell, Pandit Nehru

Sir Stafford Cripps started by asking whether there was any possibility of the Congress reconsidering their attitude on the question of interpretation if there were any prospect of that leading to a clearing of the ground.

Pandit Nehre replied that the most the Congress could do was contained in their agreement to abide by a decision of the Federal Court. In reply to a further question from Sir Stafford Cripps he said that even though the nature of the decision were certain it was not possible to forgo the reference.
(The British Lord Chancellor had advised Cripps et. al. that the legal interpretation of the plan was that grouping was compulsory. Yet the Brits were unwilling to refer to Federal Court, see below).

ToP IX, item 170
Lord Pethick-Lawrence to Mr Bevin, Telegram, 6 Dec 1946, 11.40 PM
...
2. It has not been possible to induce Nehru to modify in any way Congress position as it was already known to us. This is that they interpret Statement of 16th May by Cabinet Mission to mean that decisions within Sections of Constituent Assembly both as to whether Groups of Provinces will be formed and as to provisions of Provincial Constitutions will require support of majority of representatives of each Province. If this procedure is disputed they are prepared to accept decision of Federal Court on it.

.....
5. Lord Chancellor advises us that our interpretation is correct. Nevertheless we cannot undertake to acquiesce if ruling of Federal Court were contrary to our own interpretation. If Constituent Assembly put the question to the Court we shall await its decision which if favourable may enable Muslim League to participate. If it is not favourable we shall consider situation further.

6. Statement was read this evening to all four Indian representatives. Jinnah indicated that he would submit it to his Council but made it clear that Muslim League would not be bound by adverse finding by Federal Court on matters of procedure in Sections.....

7. Nehru is due to arrive in Delhi early afternoon Sunday 8th December and Working Committee of Congress may meet that evening. If therefore United States Government concur in our interpretation of the Statement of the 16th May it might be very helpful if United States representative in Delhi were to make approach to Congress leaders at earliest possible moment on line of first sentence of paragraph 6 of your Federal 2100 of 29th November and paragraph 7. ...{My note: The US had offered to press the Congress to accept the grouping rules}
Wavell was all through insisting on compulsory grouping.

Dec 10, 1946, Sir J. Colville's note of interview with Sardar Patel:
...Sardar patel then went on to ssay that it was the earnest desire of Congress to work the machinery of the Assembly in a proper spirit, but they were deeply anxious on account of His Majesty's Goverment's Statement on the following three grounds :-
(1) His Majesty's Government were entitled to say what they intended regarding the grouping provisions, but if they insisted that their interpretation must be accepted as an integral part of the scheme, this should have been made clear long ago. As regards reference to the Federal Court, His Majesty's Government had prejudiced the issue by saying that they would accept only a favourable verdict. If they had said that they would accept the verdict without qualification, as Congress had done, this would have enabled Congress to face a very difficult situation which was now arising from the two interests mainly affected, namely, Assam and the Sikhs....
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12258
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by A_Gupta »

Yes, Lord Wavell did lie.

Congress Working Committee statement - in response to the May 16th Cabinet Mission statement, CWC had pointed out on May 24th 1946 that forcing the provinces into compulsory groupings went against the tenor of the rest of the plan, which is of provincial autonomy.
In a letter, dated June 15th, 1946, from Lord Wavell to Maulana Azad, the President of the Congress, it was stated that "the delegation and I are aware of your objections to the principle of grouping. I would, however, point out that the statement of May 16th does not make grouping compulsory. It leaves the decision to the elected representatives fo the provinces concerned, sitting in sections. The only provision which is made is that the representatives of certain provinces should meet in sections so that they can decide whether or not they wish to form groups.".
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5355
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ShauryaT »

Acharya wrote:
SSridhar wrote: One point I want to point is that isn't the partion of Bengal in 1901 an early sign of British thnking?

surinder, I held that same view for a long time. However, I now realize that it probably wasn't so. Curzon, it seems, was genuinely interested in making administrative changes to be able to respond to situations better. He had also yanked the province of Berar (present day Vidharba ?), for example, off the Nizam and joined it with the Central Provinces in circa 1902 because of the Nizam's mis-management. I therefore feel, the partition of Bengal was probably not with that same sinister motive with which Curzon's successor Minto embraced the Muslims and the assurances he gave them.
This point is debatable. The Colonial British were hard to understand in their motive with their double speak. They have all the language for helping the administration of the "natives"

Curzon was the first to admit the use of geo-politics and division of people and land for imperial strategic purpose. He is the architect of division of Poland in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line
Furthermore, most of the opposition to the division came from Hindus, Curzon could not have been oblivious to this fact?
Johann
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2075
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Johann »

Hi Surinder,

I certainly dont mean to equate Iqbal with Tagore and Vivekananda in terms of the value of their legacy for humanity!

Rather, I meant their roles as highly visible, popular and respected anti-colonial nationalist intellectuals creating the groundwork for political action. Yet colonial policy was that 'cultural' figures were to be left alone as far as possible.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5355
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:Surinder and Shravan, Have you guys read JLN's "Discovery of India" as non Indians? 8)

if you read it and think about it please ask yourself

1) Who is the audience?
2) What is the narrative being spun?
3) Why is the narrative like that which is not close to the truth?
4) How does one reconcile it with the motto of "Satyameva jayate"?

Thanks, ramana

thse will let you understand JLN's foreign policy"
Why did he seek Dominion status?
Why did he not leave teh Commonwealth?

etc.
He did not have confidence and trust in the Hindus as:

1. He did not relate with them due to mauclayzation?
2. He understood them better than anyone else and did his best to steer India through the issues of the partition and the new Republic?

PS: Read Discovery of India, about 20-25 years back, so memory is not fresh. At that time, thought how lucky we were to get a leader with such a wide grasp of history!
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by surinder »

Johann,

No need to clarify, I knew you were not equating their worth, just their anti-colonialism. Iqbal might have caused anti-colonialism down the stream, but was hardly that himself. He was, as far as I can tell, docile and a loyalist. He never took any revolutionary work nor fought for independence (either peacefully or with violence). Call him the "as anti-colonial as it gets" equates his non-existent or negiligible anti-colonialsim with those who put their life down.
munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by munna »

surinder wrote:When Jallianwala Bagh massacre happened, Gen. Dyer got a siropa (a felicitation) from the priest of Golden Temple, whose name was Arur Singh. Non-Sikhs, especially Hindus, have often taunted me about Sikhs honoring Gen. Dyer. My embarassment finally found an answer when I found out that this "Priest" was a Mahant, a British proxy. This incident was before the Gurudwara Act.
I strongly dispute your observation.
Arur Singh was saga nana or maternal grandfather of reknowned Khalistani Simranjit Singh Maan the president of SAD (Amristsar) and an out and out Jatt Sikh. Mahants do not automatically become Hindus and a lot of them were British Toady Sikhs too. SS Mann has apologized on behalf of Arur Singh, do not call him Hindu.
Backups:
Sikhnet
The Tribune
For further cues please google up and find. It were indeed the Sikhs who honoured Gerneral Dyer, Gurudwara act of 1919-20 notwithstanding!
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Prem »

They were Singh Saba Toady, even now a days they still create divisons among Sikhs in the name of every possible difference . Singh Sabha kicked Nirmalas out and stopped the spread of Sikhi in India itself. This was another silent operation by British, killed 2 ,3 birds with one stone.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Airavat »

A_Gupta wrote:Congress resolutions from May 1946 spoke against compulsory grouping.
http://www.geocities.com/sadna_gupta/CM ... yJune.html
e.g.
In order to retain the recommendatory character of the statement, and in order to make the clauses consistent with each other, the Committee read paragraph 15 to mean that, in the first instance, the respective Provinces will make their choice whether or not to belong to the Section in which they are placed. Thus the Constituent Assembly must be considered as a sovereign body with final authority for the purpose of drawing up a Constitution and give effect to it.
The desire of the INC was to gain control of the levers of power and draw up a constitution under the Cabinet Mission Plan. This is why they did not speak out against the grouping scheme as a whole but resorted to what NS Sarila calls a "self-serving interpretation" of the provincial option, in the bolded part above.

That geocities site you quoted also has many excerpts from NS Sarila's book, which further describe Jinnah's reaction to the INC acceptance of the grouping scheme as a "dishonest trick". It also gives the details from my last post's summary:

http://www.geocities.com/sadna_gupta/SS ... rench.html
On 7 February 1947, the Congress Party and minority members of the Interim Government presented the viceroy with a petition demanding the resignation of the Muslim League representatives from the body on count of not entering the Constituent Assembly despite Congress acceptance of the grouping formula, which acceptance Jinnah termed a 'dishonest trick'. The fact was that the Congress Party had not accepted the 6 December formula unreservedly, which had enabled Jinnah to cry foul. But the Muslim League's strong words could suggest that, during his stay in London after the conference, Jinnah had received assurances that continued intransigence was in order.

Mountbatten first met Jinnah on 5 April and their conversations continued every day from 7 to 10 April. Jinnah demanded that power be handed over, province by province, with the provinces themselves choosing how they would form themselves into groups, and 'those with a Muslim majority forming a new State'. He threatened that 'an attempt to maintain the unity of India would lead the Muslim League to resort to armed force to resist it'.

Mountbatten argued that, logically, the same principle would have to be applied to areas of Bengal and the Punjab, where non-Muslims made up nearly half of the population, and, as a result, these two provinces would be partitioned. It was on 10 April that Mountbatten finally brought Jinnah to his knees, proving once more that his strength lay in direct proportion to the support he received from the British. 'I do not care how little you give me as long as you give it to me completely', he said. And then: 'I do not wish to make any improper suggestion to you but you must realize that the new Pakistan is almost certain to ask for Dominion Status within the British Empire.'
Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3801
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Paul »

dailypioneer
Britain’s Faustian pact

Premen Addy

At the time of India’s independence, the standard-bearers of the British Raj scoffed at the idea of ‘Hindu India’ surviving as a nation. Instead, they put their faith in ‘Muslim Pakistan’ which they predicted would be stable and prosperous. Along with Jinnah’s dream, that prediction lies in tatters

Swine flu hypochondria dominates the airwaves in London; after the financial meltdown nothing has so concentrated the mind on either side of the Atlantic and beyond. An irate caller from Kolkata told of a Communist CITU-led strike at the city’s airport, but one didn’t have the heart to ask if it was the virus or the swine that was to blame.

More immediate and infinitely more troubling are the continuing Taliban and Al Qaeda irruptions along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border and the greater frequency of their depredations in the former’s Punjabi heartland. The Obama Administration is at its wit’s end mixing dollars with admonitions to its client in Islamabad, the British are witless, with an economy that sinks ever deeper into an abyss and a Prime Minister floundering from one PR disaster to another. Labour MPs and the party hoi-polloi fear a rout in next year’s general election.

Against such depressing news came Mihir Bose’s New Statesman meditation on the closing years of the British Raj in India. Mr Bose, the BBC sport’s editor, has had two stabs at a biography of Subhas Chandra Bose (no relation), so his knowledge and understanding of the region’s history and politics demand respect.

“It may be hard to credit now,” he writes, “as 700 million (Indian) voters go to the polls in the world’s biggtest elections, but back in the 1940s the wise men of the British Raj predicted that while Pakistan would prosper, India would soon be Balkanised. Pakistan, it was thought, would become a vibrant Muslim state, a bulwark against Soviet Communism. India’s predominantly Hindu population, however, was presumed to be a source of weakness and instability.”

Nobody expressed these dark sentiments more forcefully than Lt Gen Sir Francis Tucker who had seen service with the Indian Army in North Africa in the Second World War. His memoirs, While Memory Serves, was published in 1950, the year India became a republic. Mr Bose quotes from Tucker’s text: “Hindu India was entering the most difficult period of its whole existence. Its religion, which is to a great extent superstition and formalism, is breaking down. If the precedents of history mean anything... then we may well expect in the material world of today, that a material philosophy such as Communism will fill the void left by the Hindu religion.”

The departing good and great of the Raj were fixated by what they saw as the sly malevolence of the Brahmins and their Indian National Congress. Mahatma Gandhi’s remarkable success with Abdul Ghaffar Khan and his Red Shirts in the Pashtun NWFP was quite irrational, pronounced Sir Olaf Caroe, scholar-governor of the province and a Russophobe reactionary. This unnatural liaison would end as Pashtun martial ardour came to the fore, he predicted.

I recall a photograph of Mohammed Ali Jinnah addressing a Pashtun crowd near Peshawar in English, with a translator at hand to make his words intelligible. The chord of hatred struck by the sainted Quaid-e-Azam — “Islam in danger from the Hindu infidel” — transcended the barrier of language. Contemporary Pakistan is surely his truest monument.

We would, however, do well to broaden the historical canvas to include the first half century of the British presence in the subcontinent. It was age of the enlightenment in Europe, when scepticism leavened belief and social Darwinism was still a distant fantasy. So William Jones presented his path-breaking linguistic studies on the common origins of Indo-European speech to scholarly acclaim, and Charles Wilkins published the first English translation of the Gita, with a foreword by his patron Warren Hastings, the first Governor-General of British India and a notable Orientalist himself.

“I hesitate not to pronounce the Gita a performance of great originality,” wrote Hastings, “of a sublimity of conception reasoning and diction almost unequalled; and a single exception, amongst all the known religions of mankind, of a theology accurately corresponding with that of the Christian disposition, and most powerfully illustrating its fundamental doctrines…”

The Governor-General observed that “Not so long ago, the inhabitants of India were considered by many as creatures scarce elevated above the degree of savage life.” Of the body of Sanskrit works that were being revealed to the European world, he ended on a high note of prophecy: “These will survive when the British dominion in India shall have long ceased to exist, and when the sources which it once yielded of wealth and power are lost to remembrance.”

This early Indo-British encounter became a period of seed-time and remedy. The New Learning in India, particularly in Bengal and Bombay, led to a second modern revelation of India’s classical past, the researches of British (and European) scholars being of seminal importance. When, deeper into the 19th century, the Oxford-based German academic Max Müller published his first edited volumes of the Veda, the Bengali Sanskritist Radha Kanta Deb wrote thus to him from Calcutta: “Accept therefore my most grateful and sincere thanks, which, in common with my countrymen, I owe to you.” Swami Vivekananda was equally fulsome in his praise.

The Indo-British interaction of these years seeded Hindu social reform, cultural renewal and eventually gave rise to the movement for political emancipation, with the foundation of the Indian National Congress in Bombay on December 28, 1885, thanks principally to the endeavours of the Briton Allan Octavian Hume. Britons of the previous generations were loath to accept that the British Raj was cast in stone. It was only with the expansion and consolidation of the empire and its supremacist culture that suspicion of and aversion to Hindus gained currency. For Sir Lepel Griffin, the blimpish Governor of Punjab, the prospect of Indian self-determination (which he attributed to the machinations of ‘Bengali Baboo’ agitators) was as distasteful as the suffragette call back home in Britain.

India’s democratic and pluralist culture took shape in the 19th century. Rammohun Roy, Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar, the Tagores, Keshub Sen and Vivekananda in Bengal and such kindred spirits in the west of the country as MG Ranade, Gopal Krishna Gokhale and many others established the Servants of India Society. Mahatma Gandhi was a social reformer even as he became his country’s foremost liberator from British colonial rule, and Jawaharal Nehru took this forward after independence.

British Imperialism, fearful of the loss of power through an anathemised partnership, made its Faustian pact with the All-India Muslim League. Theirs was a poisoned chalice, of which Pakistan today is the emblem.
jash_p
BRFite
Posts: 385
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 05:56

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by jash_p »

surinder qoute
When Jallianwala Bagh massacre happened, Gen. Dyer got a siropa (a felicitation) from the priest of Golden Temple, whose name was Arur Singh. Non-Sikhs, especially Hindus, have often taunted me about Sikhs honoring Gen. Dyer. My embarassment finally found an answer when I found out that this "Priest" was a Mahant, a British proxy. This incident was before the Gurudwara Act.
same thing they are teaching to Khalistani Sikhs in Madrassa by ISI even today !!
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by surinder »

munna wrote:
surinder wrote:When Jallianwala Bagh massacre happened, Gen. Dyer got a siropa (a felicitation) from the priest of Golden Temple, whose name was Arur Singh. Non-Sikhs, especially Hindus, have often taunted me about Sikhs honoring Gen. Dyer. My embarassment finally found an answer when I found out that this "Priest" was a Mahant, a British proxy. This incident was before the Gurudwara Act.
I strongly dispute your observation.
Arur Singh was saga nana or maternal grandfather of reknowned Khalistani Simranjit Singh Maan the president of SAD (Amristsar) and an out and out Jatt Sikh. Mahants do not automatically become Hindus and a lot of them were British Toady Sikhs too. SS Mann has apologized on behalf of Arur Singh, do not call him Hindu.
Backups:
Sikhnet
The Tribune
For further cues please google up and find. It were indeed the Sikhs who honoured Gerneral Dyer, Gurudwara act of 1919-20 notwithstanding!
I am not sure what exactly you are strongly disputing. I never said that Arur Singh or the other Mahants were Hindu. Please go back and read my post carefully. I use the double quotes when I refer to the supposed "Hindu". This, as you may well know, indicates that if anything I don't consider them to be Hindus. You are understanding the exact opposite of what I am trying to say.

The point I was making was the manner in which policy was crafted by the British to deal with various segments of the population. How the policy had the clear aim of dividing Indians and pitting one against the other. Your post serves as a good example of how this reaction plays out. You have taken great pains to emphasize that Arur Singh was a Sikh, and it were "Sikhs who honored Gen. Dyer". The genius of the British policy is that sadly even today we feel more comfortable blaming fellow Indian rather than see the British machination in the background. We are accustomed to seeing the assasin's hand, not the sponsor behind him. Even today we are unable to distinguish the whole Community's action and that of an individual. We are unable to see who is a friend and who is a foe.

I am not saying the Sikhs were any better. They saw the "Hindu" when they should have seen the British; just as average Indian sees the "Sikhs" when he should be seeing the British.

PS: By the way, the priest at Nankana Sahib who killed many was called Narain Dass (I do not know if he is the ancestor of a present day Jatt Sikh politician or not, although that is quite possible). He was instrumental in getting about 100-200 killed and was let off quite easily. There were undoubtedly secret understanding and promises that we will never find in any paper trail. But we have ample circumstantial evidence, if we want to look. Anyways, the evidence is actually quite titillatingly interesting: Narain Dass had accumulated an army, an arsenol an ammo, fortified the premises, all under the nose of the British police. When the massacre happened, the British DC of Lahore kept curiously quiet and inactive. When the trial happened, Narain Dass escaped the death punishment and perhaps served little if any time (my speculation). His companions were let off too. Who the assasin was is quite clear, but we can see who the sponsor of the assasin is too.




As an aside---some clarification on the Mahants:

Mahants who are handed over Sikh Gurudwaras after the loss of Lahore Empire in 1849 were usually Udasi Sect. This sect can range from being "Hindu" to being "Sikh". They can touch either end of the spectrum (or none of it). Some of their members take vows of chastity, some marry. Some are go about naked, some live as householders. Some keep name "Singh", some keep Sadhu type names like "Daas" etc. Some of them are Kesh-dharis (Like regular Sikhs) and wear turbans, some don't. They do read the Guru Granth Sahib, but also Hindu granths like Geeta etc. Since they did not have the requirement of maintaining Kesh, they escaped the pogroms of the Mughals and were often caretakes of the Gurudwaras during those testy times. It must be remembered & emphasized that Udasis are an inspiring sect; they have produced many inspiring and great saints among them. The Udasi Panth itself is hardly to be blamed for anything at all. And yes, there are still active communities of Udasis. (An Udasi saint was the Guru of Rama Krishna Paramhansa).

Udasis can be Jatts, or any other caste. Guru Gobind Singh's maternal uncle was an Udasi, who participated in the battle of Bhangani against the Hill Rajas of Himachal. One son of the 6th Sikh Guru was "given" to the Udasi order by the Guru himself.
Last edited by surinder on 11 May 2009 11:15, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59848
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

Guys there is a thread on Guru Gobind Singh. Please discuss there and stick to topic here.

LINK

Thanks, ramana
Raju

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Raju »

surinder wrote:The genius of the British policy is that sadly even today we feel more comfortable blaming fellow Indian rather than see the British machination in the background. We are accustomed to seeing the assasin's hand, not the sponsor behind him. Even today we are unable to distinguish the whole Community's action and that of an individual. We are unable to see who is a friend and who is a foe.
Excellent point surinder.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Apr. 16 2009

Post by svinayak »

surinder wrote:
The genius of the British policy is that sadly even today we feel more comfortable blaming fellow Indian rather than see the British machination in the background. We are accustomed to seeing the assasin's hand, not the sponsor behind him. Even today we are unable to distinguish the whole Community's action and that of an individual. We are unable to see who is a friend and who is a foe.

I am not saying the Sikhs were any better. They saw the "Hindu" when they should have seen the British; just as average Indian sees the "Sikhs" when he should be seeing the British.
British had psychologically studied the Indians in great detail. The indoctrination and the inter community strife was well mapped by the British elite class. Any grievances by any class was exploited to the maximum and they have gotten away with some spectacular social engineering.

Even after 60 years Indians are falling for the same trap which was laid out by the British. AIT, Dravidians/Aryans are spectacular success.
Raju

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Raju »

It is not a great deal to psychologically map the Indics. They open up pretty easily (esp to whitey who they consider beacon of neutrality/high moral ground) and give up most of their secrets without a care just to spite another Indian. This usually pisses off the other and he retaliates by siding with the invader.

For starters the Indics can control their emotions and allow the Brit to express their emotions and vent at every opportunity while we act as a sponge. Opinions should be given in very small doses and smallest quantity possible.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by svinayak »

Raju wrote:It is not a great deal to psychologically map the Indics. They open up pretty easily (esp to whitey who they consider beacon of neutrality/high moral ground) and give up most of their secrets without a care just to spite another Indian. This usually pisses off the other and he retaliates by siding with the invader.

For starters the Indics can control their emotions and allow the Brit to express their emotions and vent at every opportunity while we act as a sponge. Opinions should be given in very small doses and smallest quantity possible.
The english educated are the most comfortable to give up most of their secrets to goras without a care just to spite another Indian. This is called as "telling" and ARoy are part of this network of informers.
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2206
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shravan »

Local Newspaper

WHILE VICEROY MEETS CABINET MINISTERS, INDIANS SEND PROTEST CABLES TO ATTLEE
Leicester Mercury , 20 May 1947, p. 1.

Cables from India are arriving in London while the Viceroy is talking over his plan for the transfer of power with Mr. Attlee and Cabinet Ministers. Elected representatives of Sind minorities (non-Muslims) in the Indian Constituent Assembly today cabled Mr. Attlee from Karachi, strongly opposing the division of India and the inclusion of Sind in Pakistan (a separate Muslim State). The cable point out that this would result in the exclusion of 1,300,000 non-Muslims from the Indian Union against their wishes. From Calcutta, the Presidents of the Indian National Maritime Union and the Indian Jute Growers’ Association, whose members are mostly Muslims, cabled Mr. Attlee protesting against the proposed partition of Bengal, particularly the proposal to ‘chop off Calcutta from the body of Bengal’. Reuters explain that Hindus include Calcutta, where they are in a majority, in their demand for a separate W. Bengal State. A report that the British Government were considering inviting Indian leaders to London for consultations, which would take the place of the Delhi Conference, was today authoritatively denied in London.

‘COMMUNIST THREAT TO UNITED INDIA’.
Forecasting the unification of India, sooner or later after June 1948, Sir Frederick James, a member of the Indian Legislative Assembly, told the East Indian Association in London today that the movement for union would come, not from external compulsion, but from common need and interest among the separate States. Sir Frederick believed that what was most likely to be common to the new Indian States was that with the disappearance of British imperialism there would be a growing fear of dollar imperialism and Soviet expansionism. ‘Hindustan will probably be shier of foreign capital than Pakistan. A Muslim Government is likely to pursue a more Radical Socialist policy than the government of Hindustan. In short, as in the West, so in the East, the field for private enterprise is rapidly diminishing. Communal conflict will, I believe, gradually disappear or lessen. But Communism will remain, with its imminent and constant threat.’ After the control of Indian had passed out of our hands, Sir Frederick concluded, ‘India’s future will still mean much to Britain. Indeed, perhaps the finest chapter in our relations with that wonderful country is about to be opened’.
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2206
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shravan »

FINAL MUSLIM DEBATE IS HELD IN SECRET
Leicester Mercury , 7 June 1947, p. 1.

New Delhi, Saturday [7 June]. Partition of India was opposed by Jayprakash Narain, leader of the Congress Socialist Party, who told a Lucknow audience that ‘this momentous decision was taken by only a handful of Congress leaders, against the wish of Gandhi, the Father of Modern India, and without the sanction of even the All India Congress Committee. The decisive talks which will mould the future of India were entering a new stage today, as members of the Muslim League gathered in New Delhi for the meeting at which the final Muslim attitude towards the new British proposals will be secretly debated. Lord Mountbatten, the Viceroy, today resumed with the seven India leaders. A communiqué is expected later. The secretariat of the Constituent Assembly has circulated a letter to all States which have not joined the Assembly, asking them to decide by the end of the month whether they will join or not, New Delhi Radio reported. The Union and Provincial Constitution Committees of the Constituent Assembly were holding a joint meeting in New Delhi today, to decide whether India should be a unitary State, with the provinces functioning as the agents and delegates of the centre, or whether she should be a federation of autonomous units ceding certain powers to the centre, the Radio added.

AMERICAN PRAISE
The Christian Science Monitor , praising Britain’s India plan as a ‘moral triumph’, said that the skeleton unity that may grow in the immediate future offered ‘the greatest hope that fanatical extremism and communal friction can be gradually subdued’. A straw poll conducted in three Indian army commands showed that 95% of 500,000 Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and Christian soldiers favoured common kitchen and messing arrangements, despite their different religious laws about food.
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2206
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shravan »

Local newspaper accounts of the Partition of former British India
http://www.leicestershire.gov.uk/index/ ... ources.htm
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2206
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shravan »

Just copied whereever the word pakistan was found.
----------------
C A B I N E T
M I N U T E S
C.M.(46)13th Meeting (Cont’d) – C.M.(46)
108th Meeting
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... script.pdf
462 pages (6.6 Mb)

=======================
Page230
P.M. Have to face awkward situation. Policy of suppression is hopeless. But while Viceroy turns tht. down, x/ he says (p.3) law & order must be maintained – inconsistency. Moslem Provinces & maintain central Govt. What happens to Final recommn by Mission – in last resort, abandon Hindustan, defend commns & Indian Army. Wants some working out. Will Auchinleck give us a picture re law & order & safety of B. Europeans.

Auch. x/ only means during our responsibility – sporadic outbrks. W’drawal fr. Hindustan. Success wd. turn on attitude of Congress. If they agreed it cd. be spread over period e.g. 3yrs. qua Army. If they were not co-operative, it wd. become opn of war: imposs. to say militarily how we shd. do it. We have planned for colln to centres of B. Europeans, Anglo-Indians & some Indians requiring protn: & eventually to evacuate fr. ports to U.K. or to Pakistan.

Some anti-European disturbances anyhow, even if Congress co-operative; wh. will involve colln of Europeans in “Keeps”. Plans tried out on paper.

H.M. Mutiny?

A. I. Army wdn’t mutiny as a whole because compact of Hindus & Moslems. Incalculable.
If Congress cut right away, wd. be unwise to count on Hindu element in Army. They are integrated w’in Army – few separate units.

P.M. Commns?

==========================

page 231

A. Yes: always is on Frontier if chance offers. Tribes wd. take opportunity. Unless they felt they wdn’t trouble Moslem Govt. of Pakistan. Hindu element wd. demand return to Hindustan.
Wd. mean troops on frontier wd. be inefficient for some time.
.
.
J. Wd. Moslems welcome us in Pakistan?
A. Probably yes because frightened of Hindustan, who wd. attack in say 5 yrs. They wd. also expect Hindustan to invite foreign aid. Cab. Mission have reason to believe we wd. be welcomed.

=============

Page 233

P.M. Viceroy is seeking middle course between repression & scuttle. Face facts: Indian Army not reliable: I.C.S. only 500: India not what it was.
My posn is: no use adopting policy of locking up the leaders w’out a hope of future.

What are alternatives –
a) UNO. not recommended
b) para. 9. .. .. .. save by R.S.C.
c) third course proposed by Mission: not clear & needs much thought. Fear it concedes Jinnah’s
claim to Pakistan.
=========
Page 234
E.B. But what we are really asked to accept is Pakistan. And no Govt. has favoured that. And its implications need study.
P.M. Not askg. for final decision – now or next time. Mission will come home if brkdown. They want only a genl. expn of view.

H.M. More I listen, more I sympathise with E.Sh. and E.W. What wd. Soviet do? a) Propaganda offensive b) military force. We aren’t doing either. We shd. show some stamina. We’re doing nothing to convince India tht. we’re trying to hand them independence. We shd. do propaganda. Mission shd. do some firm talking Supposing situation deteriorates because they think we’ve no guts – then massacre etc. Then what answer to “the runaway Labour Govt.” Make it clear tht. one thing we can’t do is to let India drift into trouble & chaos.

E.W. Might consider also (or even) possibility of splitting Congress.

J.J.L. One early need: make it clear we’re not coming out w’out a settlement. We shd. then earn contempt of Moslems, no thanks from Hindus, & violence to Europeans. Wd. have steadying
effect in India. Frame of mind of Mission may become known in India.
==============
Page 275
At Simila got them a long way twds. agreement on this. Jinnah indicated readiness to accept this & abandon sou. Pakistan. Nehru, while rejecting parity, offered system by wh. major ques. wd. require majority of each communal Party.
======================
page 432

A.B. Do they want to agree?
P.M. Jinnah’s line is going to make Pakistan inevitable. It’s shaping that way.
================================
page 461
Don’t like references to “one or more” authies – encouragement to Pakistan. Other countries wd. say, when we go, we are splitting India.
March ’48 is a v. early date. Surely we can get people to go to India. Don’t accept view tht. they are useless for 1st 5 years. Egypt – we said 1949. Yet for India we propose Mar. ’48. Re-actions on Malaya & Burma. We are throwing away the Empire because of one man’s pessimism.

P.M. After consultn with his civil advisers.

E.B. Why can’t we keep dates in our own hands. Doubt competence of Indians to govern that great Sub-Continent. Some parts of India may invite us to stay.

P.M. We haven’t the power to rule India. Can only rule thro’ Indians. So long as they think we’ll stay, they won’t collaborate. Nothing new in statement tht. we’re going to hand over to Indians. Only ques. is wtr. we confront them with a date.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shiv »

Raju wrote:It is not a great deal to psychologically map the Indics.

Two thread were started to map the Indian psyche

The first thread - lasted 27 pages and is here

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 58&start=0

Mostly the topic is extremely unpopular because it causes cognitive dissonance, anger and denial.

But unless Indians (and Hindus!!) face up we will only keep repeating threads.

Nobody wants to take the idea that Indians can be cowardly and slavish seriously. Even more anger is caused by pointing to links between "cowardliness" and "slavishness" and Indian philosophy that demands certain types of behavior which can be construed as both cowardliness and slavishness.
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by surinder »

The conquest of India by the British was as much an intellectual conquest as a military one. The Indian psyche of each important actor was very carefully examined and mapped out. British were very fond of census & data, which they carefuly collected. They mapped out detailed statistics of castes, sects, religions, along with their psychological make up.

This intense psychological, historical, social study gave them a valuable tool to control Indians. For all their strengths, they realized quite early on that occupying India cannot be done without Indians themselves. We ourselves were an agent of our own subjugation. British always knew they were one uprising away from loosing India completely.

They had to painstakingly pit one agains the other in classic Balance of Power (or divide & rule) to ensure that we hate each other more than we hate them, we are more entangled in fighting each other than in engaging the British. Indians obliged the British quite handsomely in this pursuit; if they needed a divided nation, they hit pay-dirt in India.
SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5784
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by SBajwa »

surinder wrote:
Was it Hindu priests who controlled the Gurudwaras or were they British proxies?

I would say Both.

I was trying to answer - Why Sikh-only parties grew fast in the 1930s among Sikhs in the Punjab.
Arur Singh and others were Hindus as per Sikh ethos because they were bringing the Hindu Temple practices into Sikh temples. i.e.

1. non-distributing of the karah prasad to "Chamar-Chuhra" sikhs.
2. "Chuhra-Chamar" Sikhs were not allowed inside even Golden Temple in 1920s.
3. Installation of various idols inside the temple without a Sarbatt Khalsa.
4. Siropa's for Dyer, etc. Toady like behaviour.
5. A Sikh king (Ripudaman Singh) of Nabha state was jailed by British as he allowed a historical sikh gurdwara in his kingdom to be under the Akalis (origins of SGPC).

and thus forth.

even today.. Many Jutts in control of SGPC are like Brahmins in control of some historical temple, who think that because they are Jutt they got extra powers on the virtue of their juttness.

even when Ambedkar wanted to convert to Sikhi in 1940s these Jutt Sikh controlled SGPC refused to let him become a Sikh and he had to be a Buddhist the reason was the power agreement as with Ambedkar and his followers would have taken over the SGPC and Gurdwara control through Sarbatt Khalsa elections.(which is 100% correct as per Guru Gobind Singh khalsa)

the exact quote by one of the Jathedar when deciding whether to let Ambedkar be a Sikh was in punjabi

"Te Darbar Sahib diyan Chabian Chuhrian noo de deye?" i.e. "Should we hand over the keys of Golden Temple to Chuhras" and this from the people who are supposedly following Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh's principles. These guys were behaving exactly like earlier Brahmins refusing low-caste to become Sikhs.

Ambedkar becoming a Sikh would have been a masterstroke worth countering the partition of Punjab. SGPC made a huge blunder by refusing him the power agreement.

and.... Writing on the wall is

"Indian and Punjabi muslims have always looked outside, collaborated and sheltered the foreign invaders during Turks, mughals and then British times. "
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59848
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by ramana »

I guess I need to appeal to you folsk directly as you think general requests are not aimed for you.

Surinder, S Bajwa and any others please stick to topic and no more discussions on Sikh history here. Its not relevant to formation of Pakistan which is the thread topic.

Thanks,

ramana
surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1464
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by surinder »

Ramanna, there is an very important reason IMHO which necessitate discussion of British-Sikh history: Punjab was gound zero for the creation of Pakistan. Punjab (or Pakjab in BRF lingo) is the core of Pakistan.

Furthermore, there is not much of a paper trails to pin down the real history. The enormous amounts of documents (and history) that does exist actually is designed to cover up the reality and throw us off track. For this reason one has to look at what actually happened on the ground, which is where how the Punjab was handled becomes crucial.

That is my opinion, but I will certainly not post on this topic.
shravan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2206
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 00:08

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by shravan »

The previous one was CAB 195/4. This should have been posted first.
------------------
CAB 195/3
W A R C A B I N E T
M I N U T E S
W.M.(45)26th Meeting – C.M.(46)
13th Meeting
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/docu ... script.pdf
Pages 244 - 1.2 Mb

=====================
Page 167

Conference a) those holdg. office as Premier on Prov. Govt. or
those who last held it in S.93 Provinces = 11.
b) leaders of Congress, Mosl. League, Indep. Party
c) 2 senior advisers
d) Gandhi & Jinna
e) Rpve of untouchables and Sikhs.

They wd. advise me on membership of new Council, if approved. Total 22: only 9 Congress, 6 Moslem League, 7 independents. Don’t believe they wd. be unreasonable or irresponsible. Believe they are anxious to for a Govt. wh. will try to deal with India’s

4 Congress & 1 non-Congress Hindu
4 M. League, 1 non League Moslem.
1 sched. class repve
1 Sikh & perhaps 1 other
Council of 15 only 4 of wh. wd. be Congress Hindus.
Wd. ask them to give pledge to support the war.

We are stuck now:
initial move shd. therefore be gradual not drastic. Council intellectually wd. not be inferior to present. More nationalist & diff. to handle: but that must be handled if we are to make progress in India.
They wd. have some popular support behind them – nominated by ex-Premiers who were elected.

If they decline the offer, then I wd. go no further – no negotiation.

P.M. x/ Suppose they say 22 if not large enough body to consult: & suggest 200 or so.

W. Release of Working Cttee – wd. consult my Ex. Council. Patel & Nehru are only diff. ones still in custody. The 22 might seek to make it a condn that remainder shd. be released. If this proves diffy., I wd. be ready to release the lot when the discns start.
On x/, subject to report to report to Cab., I wd. refuse to enlarge it. I wd. preside at outset: then wd. ask them how to proceed in nominating. They wd. prob. split into 2 groups, Moslem & Hindus.

A.E. Like this better than Rpt

P.J. & R.A.B. It is not the same.

L.S.A. Yes: it is the working out of our framework.

P.M. If the 22 seek to negotiate, wd. you refuse?

W. I wd. report home recommindg. refusal.

O.S. Quite difft. when Viceroy says he wd. have power to go outside the nominations made to him – as well as to select from w’in those. But that is not clear from the statement.

L.S.A. Yes: it leaves it open to Viceroy – para 12.

P.M. Will they feel any satisfaction if they are told at outset that Viceroy will be quite free to ignore their recommns. Much less objectionable as now stated – danger of its appearing a “nothing”.

P.M. We can’t end this discn now. Viceroy has expld his procedural plan – aim to give him surer
guidance & broader advice before forming his Council. His ultimate power of selection wd. not in form be affected. This shd. be studied by India Cttee. Meeting to-day with Viceroy. To review draft statement in the light of W.’s explanation to-day & our discussion in Cabinet. When it comes to action, don’t worry about release of detenus. If you are going to release Nehru why boggle over release of the others. Cabinet to meet to-morrow to approve further report of India Cttee.

=================

Page 210
L.S.A. W. proposes make own list: see Jinnah & persuade him to accept. Also see Congress because going outside their list.
List of 2nd choices in reserve.
At present only needs authy to proceed on those lines.
Further ques. – for India Cttee. – on what to do if negotns break down. Believe W.’s list is good. May get it accepted with some alterations.

P.J. a) I have always wanted to avoid appearance tht. key econ. jobs are in hands of people subservient to industrial interests. On this ground allocns of Matai and Patel are desperate.

L.S.A. Diff. to judge that kind of thing from this end. We are commd to principle of Indian self-government.

S. Prior difficulty. Grave doubt – para 2 “in acc. with original plan”.?
That was a plan for inviting fr. Parties their list. Point of that was names wd. be of people supported by their Party & ready to take job. But Mosl. League have refused to put in any list. He
hasn’t therefore bn. able to make his list from the Panels: because he has failed to get lists from all.

P.J.
Even more fundamental. M. League will be able to take hostile line v. new Council from the outset.

S. Congress may be manoeuvring to show up Moslem League.

A.E. a) we wanted to avoid a negotiation.
b) choice wd. be from the lists.
As Jinnah has not produced list, I thought only ques. now was how to bring thing to an end.
L.S.A. Has been no negotiation on scope of offer. Always assumed some give & take in discussion of lists. Natural thing now – discuss with Jinnah & get him to nominate
people suggested by W.

A.E. But is this W.’s proposal?
P.J. No. W. intends to publish at once.
C.O. If you stop now, he’ll have to show up Jinnah as stumbling block.

O.L. Beware of losing repve character. If it’s our list we lose it. Why not authorise him only to hold private conversns with J. – to get him to put fwd. his list on assurance tht. Viceroy will not
add an awkward Moslem.

O.S. He is going outside Congress list. Thus , it is his list. And we insisted he shd. have his list.

L.S.A. a) See J. and find out wtr. he will play when he knows who other Moslem is.
b) See Congress & ascertain wtr. they accept his addns.

R.S.H.
But W. intends to put whole list to each side. There wd. be no objn to showg. each side its own part of the full list.

L.S.A. Leave details of negotn to man on the spot.

P.J. Go for J. alone: here is what I wd. recommend. Will you put fwd. nomination of 4 Moslem Leaguers. And will you play , if (your not putting in a list) I put it fwd. Take this action with J separately – to get him up to scratch with others.

A.E. We agree on handling of J. – as above. Why make simultaneous approach to Congress.

S. No approach to Congress before we know result of talk with J.

O.L. Whole list shd. not be shown to both sides. [ Agreed.

RAB. V. bad Govt. if this does succeed. Wd. like to see honourable failure: followed by his smaller efficiency Govt. Go slow. Deal only with J.

C.O. I wd. include in telegram leave to consult Congress, but make it clear it comes at a later stage.
Agreed: no objn to that.
Agreed: Subject to reportg. back if J. won’t play. If he will,

W. to go on to Cong.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Formation of Pakistan : The Real Story

Post by Abhi_G »

Some ideas about the loss of Sylhet and the political dynamics of the Congress in Assam. This is relevant to the partition since the refugees were not only Bengali Hindus but Muslims as well, although the reasons of the immigration was for entirely different reasons - loss of Sylhet caused loss of land for Bengali Hindus whereas muslim immigration was actually encouraged to create a majority of Assamese speaking people. All abetted by the INC.

http://www.india-seminar.com/2002/510/5 ... udhuri.htm
Of course, the partition of India was yet a far cry in 1946 and the Congress high command allowed the Assam Congress to air the proposal for the transfer of Sylhet to Bengal only as a part of a futuristic plan for a reorganisation of the provinces within undivided India. But in June 1947, the situation was totally different. The transfer of Sylhet to Bengal now meant its transfer to East Pakistan and the Congress high command could in no way sponsor such a proposal.

But to the Assam Congress it did not matter whether Sylhet went to Pakistan or remained in India. The Bengali speaking district was regarded as an ulcer hindering the emergence of a unilingual Assam. Hence, when the decision for the referendum was announced, Gopinath Bordoloi, conveyed to all concerned, that the Cabinet was not interested in retaining Sylhet.

‘It was indeed the lifetime opportunity for the Assamese leadership "to get rid of Sylhet" and carve out a linguistically more homogenous province. When the results of the referendum were declared, there was a feeling of relief in the Brahmaputra valley. The Sylhet leaders were discouraged when they tried to salvage a portion of the district through an effective representation to the Boundary Commission.’3
‘After 1947 the Bengali Muslims became de facto allies of the Assamese in their conflict with the Bengali Hindus. Bengali Muslims have been willing to accept Assamese as the medium of instruction in their schools, and have thrown their votes behind Assamese candidates for the state Assembly and the national Parliament. They have declared Assamese as their mother tongue. In return, the state government has not attempted to eject Bengali Muslims from lands on which they have settled in the Brahmaputra valley, though earlier leaders had claimed that much of the settlement had taken place illegally... There is thus an unspoken coalition between the Assamese and the Bengali Muslims against the Bengali Hindus’ (Sons of the Soil, p. 124).
Post Reply