LCA news and discussion

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 09 Jun 2009 16:21

K Mehta wrote:To break the boredom here,
The May 2009 issue of the Journal of aeronautical society of India has beautiful photos of the LCA at weapons testing. The issue isnt online yet, but i will get the scans by next week. The weapons testing was done one more than 2 pylons, and both internal and external pylons were used. Litening pod is also there.
Till then see the older photos of Indian products at the above links. Some nice pics there of some rare beauties.

Please post the full article with the scans, if possible..

thanks

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 09 Jun 2009 16:29

vipins wrote:
Anujan wrote: You are going to hear something about the Kaveri soon.
Last news about kaveri was when it was to be send for high altitude testing to moscow.
lets hope its a good news!!

That's what I have also heard, a few AERO INIDAs ago !!

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 09 Jun 2009 16:57

Kersi D wrote:
Anujan wrote: You are going to hear something about the Kaveri soon.

vipins
Last news about kaveri was when it was to be send for high altitude testing to moscow.
lets hope its a good news!!
That's what I have also heard, a few AERO INIDAs ago !!

Sir,I was just refering to news about kaveri going for testing which was in DDM around march-april 2009,
I dont have any access to paan or chai wallas.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 09 Jun 2009 19:17

symontk wrote:Just now one LCA was flying around in Green paint, could be a new PV version

Was it a twin seater by chance? You can recogonize it by the lengthened cockpit glass. If so this is the PV-5 - exciting.

If not, just another routine testing flight (one amongst the thousands that the LCA has done so far)

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 09 Jun 2009 19:43

It was painted green and I couldnt notice whether it is two seater. Also that one seems to took off half way thru the runway, I have never seen LCA taking off like that, they usually take full run straight and turn. This one turned quickly

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 09 Jun 2009 21:49

^^^
Green Nose cone => PV-1

Corrected error.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jun 2009 21:54

p_saggu wrote:^^^
Green Nose cone => PV-2

They got their gray nose in mid 2008
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... +tank1.JPG

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/ ... -pics.html

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 09 Jun 2009 21:54

symontk wrote:It was painted green and I couldnt notice whether it is two seater. Also that one seems to took off half way thru the runway, I have never seen LCA taking off like that, they usually take full run straight and turn. This one turned quickly

Also, never have In noticed LCA doing sorties above south Bangalore, but from 2 weeks everyday between 9-11 in the morning, you can see them flying and I twice them with the afterburner.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 09 Jun 2009 22:21

Kakarat wrote:
p_saggu wrote:^^^
Green Nose cone => PV-2
They got their gray nose in mid 2008
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... +tank1.JPG

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/07/ ... -pics.html

No no no! My mistake.

Green Nose cone is PV-1. And it still has a green nose cone.

I had a project to identify the prototypes based on the paint schemes. and it worked fine until the LSP's came around.

So Green Nose Cone => PV-1

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jun 2009 22:42

p_saggu wrote: No no no! My mistake.

Green Nose cone is PV-1. And it still has a green nose cone.

I had a project to identify the prototypes based on the paint schemes. and it worked fine until the LSP's came around.

So Green Nose Cone => PV-1

Even PV-1 has got its gray nose

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 771360.jpg

The aircraft in the second row ate TD-2 & PV-1

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/02/5- ... light.html

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 09 Jun 2009 23:11

Here is the result of my research on LCA Color Schemes(A completely worthless piece of research work, nevertheless important from a Jingo POV)

TD-1 KH 2001 : White with orange and green stripes. Now due to be condemned and will no longer fly.
TD-2 KH 2002: Light Grey Nose cone.
PV-1 KH 2003: Green Nose cone
PV-2 KH 2004: No distinctive colour scheme (Dark Gray on top, Lighter gray below, Dark Grey Nosecone)
PV-3 KH 2005: No distinctive colour scheme

PV-5 Trainer: Double cockpit. No color scheme available yet.

LSP-1 KH 2011: The LSPs have a lighter gray color on the lower part of the aircraft as compared to the PV's
LSP-2 KH 2012: ----- do -----

this piece research now stands obsolete in parts, it seems

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Jun 2009 10:51

Hmm. Speaking of green noses, something is up with the LCA radar surely. I saw the Avro Hack, the one with the green LCA nose fly over me in my car in outer ring road at around 9:40 this morning . Kind of funny. With the Israeli help, I would have thought that the MMR would be tested thoroughly on Isreal's test platforms , who I assume would have far better stuff than a 1960s Avro.

I would guess that the cunning Yindoos are upto something here beyond MMR maybe ? Of course they could be testing out the MMR as well, maybe new modes etc, dunno. Would put the money on the first guess though.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 10 Jun 2009 15:30

p_saggu wrote:I don't think LDRE's AESA and Elta's 2052 are the same. I think LDRE's AESA might be an MKIsed 2052 though.

Just like the Embraer AEW&C

They are different... although Israel is indeed helping out.

Second, there is nothing common between the AEW&C and the Brazilian AWACs... indeed, even the platform is different - the Brazilians have the R99A variant, while we are directly customizing an EMB-145. The only thing Brazil is helping us out on on the AEW&C is the integration of the radar (our radar) onto the 145 platform... its like how Russia 'collaborated' with Israel for the Phalcon radars for us.

p_saggu wrote:
SaiK wrote:there is no news yet that its going to be AESA. or was there one that missed? links please?
This was in the scanned Vayu article on the LCA that I think Nayak posted. I'll try and post it. But it definitely said LDRE's developing an AESA for the LCA.

LRDE is developing AESA... check Aero India thread for specs (basic)... they are looking at a 2011-12 timeline.

vina wrote:Hmm. Speaking of green noses, something is up with the LCA radar surely. I saw the Avro Hack, the one with the green LCA nose fly over me in my car in outer ring road at around 9:40 this morning . Kind of funny. With the Israeli help, I would have thought that the MMR would be tested thoroughly on Isreal's test platforms , who I assume would have far better stuff than a 1960s Avro.

I would guess that the cunning Yindoos are upto something here beyond MMR maybe ? Of course they could be testing out the MMR as well, maybe new modes etc, dunno. Would put the money on the first guess though.

Not necessarily Vina... the Hack is also being used to test DARE's EW systems, so it could be one of those. Plus, even if it is the radar, I think it would be too expensive to remove the radar from the Hack and send it to Israel, to re-integrate and re-test.

P.S... Expect a lot more news from Tejas front within next 1-2 months

. Indications have been coming in from AI09 - Kaveri dual hi-alt and combustor vibration trials in Russia, LCA Trainer, Mk2 Specs, info on AESA (if they do decide to release info that is), and a lot more...

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Jun 2009 16:56

p_saggu wrote:Here is the result of my research on LCA Color Schemes(A completely worthless piece of research work, nevertheless important from a Jingo POV)

TD-1 KH 2001 : White with orange and green stripes. Now due to be condemned and will no longer fly.
TD-2 KH 2002: Light Grey Nose cone.
PV-1 KH 2003: Green Nose cone
PV-2 KH 2004: No distinctive colour scheme (Dark Gray on top, Lighter gray below, Dark Grey Nosecone)
PV-3 KH 2005: No distinctive colour scheme

PV-5 Trainer: Double cockpit. No color scheme available yet.

LSP-1 KH 2011: The LSPs have a lighter gray color on the lower part of the aircraft as compared to the PV's
LSP-2 KH 2012: ----- do -----

this piece research now stands obsolete in parts, it seems

According to my research even the PV-1 has a gray nose now

naird · Post by **naird** » 11 Jun 2009 19:10

1135 test flights for LCA ---

...It was 1123 a couple 3-4 days back....I guess there is some significant amount of test flying happening......

http://www.ada.gov.in/

If only we knew whats happening...

Can somebody tell those DRDO folks that the ada website is notoriously slow...

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 11 Jun 2009 19:23

Israel is testing a MMR on a boeing Hack there.

There are two MMRs in existance. One on the roof top at Bangalore, and the other on a boeing aircraft in Israel.
(Ref: Vayu scanned pages posed by Nayak)

K prasad,
Eagerly waiting for some sensational news. Keep us updated.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jun 2009 23:42

p_saggu wrote:Israel is testing a MMR on a boeing Hack there.

There are two MMRs in existance. One on the roof top at Bangalore, and the other on a boeing aircraft in Israel.
(Ref: Vayu scanned pages posed by Nayak)

K prasad,
Eagerly waiting for some sensational news. Keep us updated.

ELTA has a company owned Boeing 737 radar testbed that it uses for such purposes.

vina · Post by **vina** » 12 Jun 2009 06:30

So what bijness the cunning Yindoos have in flying their 1960s Avro plane with the green Pinnochio nose eh? Something black in dal onree.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Jun 2009 10:34

And Pinocchio nose becomes more bigger and emits longer ranged AESA signal each time PIB lies and says "routine onlee"

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 13 Jun 2009 09:25

Quoting relevant parts of the article. No mention of the prototype being a two seater in the article...

LCA to do star turn, set to take to night skies

BANGALORE: The indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is on its way to achieving a major milestone in the next few days as a prototype of the aircraft will take to the skies by night. A prototype of the aircraft is expected to carry out extensive night flying activity over Bangalore’s skies to demonstrate its night flying capability next week, sources told Express.

...

The second fly by night will take place with one of the prototype vehicle sporting new systems for which the ADA, National Flight Testing Centre, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) and Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) have been making preparations.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 13 Jun 2009 14:27

The second fly by night will take place with one of the prototype vehicle sporting new systems for which the ADA, National Flight Testing Centre, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC) and Directorate General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance (DGAQA) have been making preparations.

what does new systems mean ?? If we consider the vehicle to be one of 2 PVs. They seemed to already have 2032 on them. The Litening Pod has already been tested on PV-2. The article talks about some new systems. Well, we'll only know it later.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 13 Jun 2009 16:03

naird wrote: Can somebody tell those DRDO folks that the ada website is notoriously slow...

hmmrrrrr....Ada..should make it obligatory and mandatory to publish weekly progress/test reports on BR.

If not then the DDM should play this role.

hmmmrrrrr!!!!

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 13 Jun 2009 20:14

Saw this article on abovetopsecret.com forum. This is an article from 2005 Kali, Missiles and the LCA

India's electron-accelerated pulse-power gigahertz microwave beam weapon : KALI

Indian atomic scientists have developed the country's first 'star wars' weapon whose beams could cripple enemy missiles and aircraft.

Bursts of microwaves for KALI packed with gigawatts of power could "soft kill" incoming enemy aircraft and missiles by crippling their electronics systems and computer chips.

KALI = Kilo-Ampere Linear Injector
Kali is also the name of on all powerful demon killing Hindu godess.

According to scientists, ''soft killing" by high power microwaves has advantages over the so called laser weapon which destroys by drilling holes through metal.

The Kali system was developed for industrial applications and that the defence use was a recent spinoff.

Development of the Kali machine was mooted in 1985 by Dr Chidambaram, then director of BARC, but work earnestly began in 1989.

The machine essentially generated pulses of highly energetic electrons. Other components in the machine down the line converted the electrons into flash X-rays (for ultra high-speed photography) or microwaves. The electron beam itself can be used for welding.

The Defence Balistics Research Institute in Chandigarh is already using an X-ray version of Kali to study speed of projectiles.

Another defense institute in Bangalore is using a microwave-producing version of Kali which the scientists use for testing the vulnerability of the electronic systems going into the LCA Tejas under development and designing electrostatic shields to protect them from microwave attack by the enemy.

According to BARC scientists, the Kali machine has for the first time provided India a way to ''harden" the electronic systems used in satellites and missiles against the deadly electromagnetic impulses (EMI) generated by nuclear weapons.

The EMI wrecks havoc by creating intense electric field of several thousand volts per centimeter. The electronic components currently used in missiles can withstand fields of Just 300 volts per centimeter.

While the Kali systems built so far are single shot pulse power systems,the Kali-5000 is a rapid fire device, and hence its derrivative will be used as beam weapon.

According to BARC-published reports, the machine will shoot several thousand bursts of microwaves, each burst lasting for just 60 billionths of a second and packed with a power of about four gigawatts.

The high power microwave pulses travel in a straight line and do not dissipate their energy if the frequency falls between three and ten gigahertz.

naird · Post by **naird** » 13 Jun 2009 20:49

KrishG wrote:

what does new systems mean ?? If we consider the vehicle to be one of 2 PVs. They seemed to already have 2032 on them. The Litening Pod has already been tested on PV-2. The article talks about some new systems. Well, we'll only know it later.

2032 has been integrated ?? Any links sir ? Last i heard that radar integration was still going on (MMR or 2052- Aesa), never heard anything about 2032.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 13 Jun 2009 23:12

MMR is supposed to have a 2032 architecture. The front plate is supposedly Indian. The software is also Indian.

Nothing about the 2052 or LRDE's AESA being integrated yet.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 14 Jun 2009 00:15

Apologies for the stupid question, but how many night flights have happened till now ? If none, why not?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jun 2009 02:13

you need your aircraft to be completely governed by instruments which are rated for the night, as you will not have anything visible like the horizon for spatial orientation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_flight_rules

I will not be surprised if none of the flights as of now are night flights as it would mean complete reliance on the system as corrective actions cannot be taken by the pilot.

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 14 Jun 2009 02:48

jamwal wrote:Apologies for the stupid question, but how many night flights have happened till now ? If none, why not?

Saar - the article mentions SECOND night flight. Snippet from the same article...

The Prototype Vehicle- 3 (PV-3) in November last year took to the skies by night and carried out a set of predetermined manoeuvres to demonstrate its night capability.
ADA had termed the maiden night flying as a flawless flight which will pave the way for systems and weapon integration for delivery by night.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Jun 2009 04:45

basic night flying will not be an issue for any modern aircraft. but night fighting is a different question, that too A2G

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 14 Jun 2009 06:47

Do the pilots wear night vision gear on their helmet? Or does the artificial horizon on the HUD do the job? Is there a monitor with IR view in the cockpit?
Can fighters drop dumb bombs during night raids? (Dumb question) If the pilots are not wearing NVG how is it possible.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Jun 2009 10:10

p_saggu wrote:
Can fighters drop dumb bombs during night raids? (Dumb question) If the pilots are not wearing NVG how is it possible.

Provided that the moon is not in the dark phase - it should be possible for pilots to use their eyeball mk 1 to drop bombs on targets like runways, etc which can be visible in the moon light.

if its a full moon night, you can actually see a lot on the ground

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 14 Jun 2009 10:21

I generalized the question. I should have said IAF / LCA / Frontline fighters of the IAF.
How will LCA's night flying be conducted? Will the pilots wear helmet mounted NVG's / Lightening pods and screen in the cockpit?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Jun 2009 10:28

p_saggu wrote:I generalized the question. I should have said IAF / LCA / Frontline fighters of the IAF. ?

oh i was talking about IAF and its frontine fighters as well (where pilots do not have the NVG).

night flying is fairly common with no NVG .

A2G weapons delivery is based on level of trg and experience. but is done without nvg aids as well

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 14 Jun 2009 16:00

To start with , I don't think LCA is a 4.5+ gen. aircraft in the first place, the MKI is more in that category.

Also we're not yet through with MMR integration and LSP-3 or even the selection of engine for MK 2 , internal weapons bays and TVC engine are probably only wet dreams of military fan boys.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2009 16:02

in theory internal weapons carriage can reduce RCS and drag by a lot.

BUT

on LCA type fighters its all but impossible. on large planes like Su30 (between engine inlets) or F15E (outside
of the CFTs), it maybe possible to shoehorn in 4 AAMs but thats about it.

A2G munitions or large numbers of AAMs need a purpose built 'boxy' airframe (F22/JSF) and the weight
increasing due to size increase, more powerful engines are a must from the start.

LCA will never get internal weapons carriage. at best we can hope for semi recessed two AAMs below fuselage
but thats nothing as it still leaves 4 under the wings.

a Typhoon for 4 semi recessed meteor would still need to carry another 4 underwing missiles for a
serious air superiority mission to counter threats at short range

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 14 Jun 2009 17:08

Glass half full or half empty (& why beat up others who may be slightly more optimistic, than you, about the future of LCA)? Or Nihatji, is it a case of ‘my crystal ball is more powerful than others’?

Please don't take offense , I'm not beating up anyone here.

A direct answer to your orginal question is is YES , of course internal weapons bays would reduce RCS , it would do so for any jet on the planet.

But here we sit , waiting for the vanilla Mk 1 version with F-404 engines to be ready for IOC by END of NEXT year , can you seriously see a TVC engine and internal weapons in LCA.

Also , we do have an MCA project which is required to have TVC and Internal weapons bay and that may be a reality by 2020 , so why would IAF and ADA experiment with such technologies on a light aircraft which would be primarily an interceptor.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 14 Jun 2009 19:40

vipins wrote:
Kersi D wrote: You are going to hear something about the Kaveri soon.

vipins
Last news about kaveri was when it was to be send for high altitude testing to moscow.
lets hope its a good news!!

That's what I have also heard, a few AERO INIDAs ago !!

Sir,I was just refering to news about kaveri going for testing which was in DDM around march-april 2009,
I dont have any access to paan or chai wallas.[/quote]

O Mr Vipins. I am not blaming you for giving stale news. it is just that we have been hearing these things for past donkeys years !!

K

PS I do not eat paan !!!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Jun 2009 02:05

The ADA website maintenance has really gone downhill in last couple of months. Now they're updating the test flights but most links don't work. If they have a new web admin then he really needs to be taken to task.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Jun 2009 07:00

JTull wrote:The ADA website maintenance has really gone downhill in last couple of months. Now they're updating the test flights but most links don't work. If they have a new web admin then he really needs to be taken to task.

The ADA website has been undernourished for so long that I don't expect anything from it anymore. I give them credit for keeping the flight counts up to date. When nothing else is working, you appreciate whatever you get. Maintenance doesn't get any lower in cost than that. I guess its a case of every rupee going into the establishment but not a paisa for its image - very typical really.

Coming back to the LCA, what happened to the consultancy from BAe that was supposed to reduce the shortest distance to IOC? Has any of that work begun? Paan-walas - we need you.

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 15 Jun 2009 10:27

EDITED. Doesn't belog here.
See below.