Indian Missile Technology Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2009 05:41

Good job on agreat accuracy weapon. 1 m at 290 km in nothing to sneeze at. And looks like a distinguished panel of observers. Wish they show the target video next time.
----------------
Do we know at what time was the first test conducted on Jan 20th, 2009? Looks like there was a GPS glitch and that was the day for Presidential inauguration in US. Might have been a security measure to blink periodically that day?
Anyway good thing that the test malfunctioned for the reliance on GPS was shown up and corrective measures were taken as seen by test #2 &#3 being successful. Otherwise it would have been not good.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2009 07:21

Arun_S wrote:Watch the video that has close up of BrahMos missile and look at the shape of the nacell at 0:41 minute mark. It may give you goose bumps.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 330359.cms

Looks to me like a seeker window for some EO/IIR type seeker ? Does it have a Dual Seeker ( IIR/RF ? )

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2009 07:32

BrahMos launch successful
T.S. Subramanian

The BrahMos rose from a mobile launcher at the Army’s range at 11.15 a.m. and reached its target more than 50 km away. It flew at a velocity of Mach 2 (twice the speed of sound).

Dr. Pillai called it “a perfect flight.” Out of multiple targets, the missile “discriminated” and hit “the bull’s eye” of the specified target, he said. Data from the missile’s global positioning system (GPS) was received.

This is the third launch in the series of the Block II version for the Army. With this launch, the Army’s requirements for the land attack version of the missile with an advanced seeker and software for hitting the given target out of a cluster of targets had been met and the version was ready for induction into the Army, a press release from the Defence Research and Development Organisation said.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2009 07:34

I believe in case of the Brahmos-II nacelle 'spike' is relatively more recessed than the earlier version; more speed onlee.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 30 Mar 2009 08:54

Negi, I agree. The shock cone appears more recessed and the air intake circumference of the Block II unit appears larger than Block I. I assume this means increased velocity. Arun garu please translate your riddle into more easily digestible pieces for us mere mortals.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 30 Mar 2009 09:17

p_saggu wrote:Now I see it.
It is not circular, but rather octagonal (From what I can see). Radar invisibility? What if the whole body is made of carbon composite?

Yup!! The jagged edge can be clearly seen, the corresponding jagged edges on right hand side is reduced due to perspective angle and/or partly covered composite panel (I have seen that in an earlier video frame by frame to discriminate and exclude other possibilities).

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 30 Mar 2009 09:32

Army mum on BrahMos success

30 Mar 2009, 0254 hrs IST, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI/JAISALMER: Army’s objective to induct the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile as a “precision-strike weapon” took a small step forward on
Sunday with the missile being tested at the Pokhran range for the second time this month.

While DRDO promptly claimed the BrahMos Block-II missile had hit the “bull’s-eye”, the Army was reluctant to dub it “a success” without “detailed analysis”.

The Army’s reluctance comes in the backdrop of the first test of this Block-II BrahMos flopping on January 20, as was reported by TOI earlier, with software glitches making the 290-km range missile completely miss the intended target.

The launch was witnessed by DG military operations Lt Gen A S Sekhon and commandant, School of Artillery, Lt Gen K R Rao.

Reminds me of my Dayhati muhawara:

"Haath Kangan, Tou Aarsi Kya|
Padhay Likhay Ko Faarsi Kya||"
Loosely translated to:
- What is the need for small make-up mirror, when you have a full size wardrobe mirror in front of you?
  And for a well educated person, he does not need to be just well versed in Faarsi (Persian) language" {Persian/Farsi language was the language of the elite, much like what French was in early to mid 20th century.

Me thinks Army HQ is busy flipping through Faarsi dictionary.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 30 Mar 2009 09:39

BrahMos cruise missile hits 'bull's eye'

Sunday, 29 March , 2009,
New Delhi: The Indian Army on Sunday successfully test fired the land attack version of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile at the Pokhran test range in Rajasthan. The missile took off successfully and hit the "bull's eye", an official statement said. The missile, a joint venture of India and Russia, was fired at 11.15 am on Sunday.

"Today (Sunday) land attack version of BrahMos block-II was tested from a mobile autonomous launcher at Pokhran test range by the Indian Army. The missile took off successfully and hit the desired target at bull's eye meeting all mission parameters," a statement issued by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said.

This is the second launch this month and third this year for the block-II version for the army. In the first test, the missile failed to hit the target. The army kept the results of the second test under wraps even though DRDO termed it successful.

"With this launch, the requirement of army for the land attack version with block-II advanced seeker software with target discriminating capabilities has been fully met and this version is ready for induction," the statement said.

According to the DRDO officials, the missile will provide an enhanced capability to the army for selection of a particular land target among a group of targets.

The launch was witnessed by Director General Military Operations Lt. Gen. AS Sekhon, Commandant School of Artillery Lt. Gen. KR Rao and Additional Director General Artillery Maj. Gen. VK Tiwari along with other senior army officers. .... . . . The Indian Army has already begun inducting the land-fired version of the BrahMos, with the first battery entering service in June 2007. Each battery is equipped with four mobile launchers mounted on heavy 12x12 Tatra transporters.

The army plans to induct three more such batteries. The anti-ship naval version has also been inducted into service with its integration on the destroyer INS Rajput, with two other ships of the same class to be similarly equipped. The missiles will also be mounted on the three 7,000 tonne Kolkata class destroyers currently being constructed at Mumbai's Mazagon docks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Mar 2009 11:18

p_saggu wrote:From the news report above "BRAHMOS hits the bulls eye"

The Brahmos vertical launch is the sexiest launch of any missile ever - with the nose tip stabilizers in action and the cap shooting off - Nirvana.

In every one of 3-4 videos of vertical launches - one flash of an explosion/rocket motor is seen from one side that "whump" tips the missile over from vertical to horizontal.

Would that be a "pif paf " motor?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 30 Mar 2009 12:00

Was watching times now when they showed a clip pf Lt Gen thamburaj congratulating the scientists on successful test firing of Brahmos block-2. He mentioned something about it being more accurate and geared towards taking out urban targets unlike the naval version. Hopefully IA will order the requisite 240 now.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 30 Mar 2009 13:16

Finally Army admitted that third Brahmos test was extremely successful:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 301221.htm

Army wanted BrahMos to achieve high standards of accuracy

New Delhi (PTI): The three trials of BrahMos cruise missile were aimed at testing the effectiveness of the new special sensor integrated in the missile to hit the desired target in an urban environment accurately, a top army officer said on Monday.

Vice Chief of Army Staff, Lt Gen Noble Thamburaj, said Army had enhanced its aspirations and wanted the BrahMos to achieve high standards of accuracy.

"Accuracy was the mantra. We had wanted a special sensor to be integrated in the missile so that it can hit the desired target accurately from among similar kind of targets in an urban environment," he told reporters on the sidelines of a defence seminar here.

He said the last three trials have been to test the effectiveness of the new sensor.

"On behalf of the Army, I would like to congratulate the scientists for conducting an extremely successful third test of BrahMos," he said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2009 13:21

Great News , finally the army accepts that this exotic missile with "special sensors" is truly special

Arun_S wrote:
p_saggu wrote:Now I see it.
It is not circular, but rather octagonal (From what I can see). Radar invisibility? What if the whole body is made of carbon composite?
Yup!! The jagged edge can be clearly seen, the corresponding jagged edges on right hand side is reduced due to perspective angle and/or partly covered composite panel (I have seen that in an earlier video frame by frame to discriminate and exclude other possibilities).

So Arun , this jagged edges helps in reducing the frontal rcs of brahmos ?

Can we have a ballpark figure of frontal rcs of Brahmos block 1 and then if this reduces rcs with jagged edges the frontal rcs of blk 2

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 30 Mar 2009 19:24

Love the sounds of the sonic boom @ 8 seconds.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2009 19:40

Shiv, the "pif paf" came into public eye with the Aster missile program. sounds
like a mix of aerodynamic + those side firing rockets seen to orient the missile
initially....maybe in the terminal phase they also kick in to quickly and unpredictably change the course.

http://www.eurosam.com/blocks/aster.htm

The terminal dart is steered using the patented PIF-PAF system, which combines conventional aerodynamic controls for maneuvers up to 60 Gs, and direct thrust vector control in the terminal phase, up to 12 Gs. Thrust vectors are located on the missile's centre of gravity for maximum responsiveness.

from another link:
The manoeuverablitly is greatly improved thanks to a new control system. The traditional control flaps have been carefully optimised, and are associated with four powder maneuver rockets at the center of gravity of the missile (also refered to as PIF-PAF for Pilotage induit en force—Pilotage aerodynamique en force). This prevents a rupture of the missile under high-g manoeuvers, during trajectory corrections, and allows such manoeuvers to occure without losing aerodynamical performances, which improves the precision of the impact of target. A standard launch of the Aster can include 90 degrees trajectory changes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2009 19:49

with this seeker we can target military and jihadi buildings in middle of pakistani cities while avoiding close by civilian offices, hospitals and other off-limits targets like residential areas and apartments.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Mar 2009 20:01

"On behalf of the Army, I would like to congratulate the scientists for conducting an extremely successful third test of BrahMos," he said.

Golden inscription needed and be dazzled at DRDO websites.

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 30 Mar 2009 20:30

Some pages back there was some discussion about passive millimeter wave imaging as a improvement in BrahMos. Here it is mentioned as a achievement in DIAT(Defence Institute of Advanced Technology) website.

ACHIEVEMENTS

Past projects successfully completed

1.Design, Development and Performance Evaluation of Passively Q- Switched LASER Pumped Nd:YVO4 LASER.
2.Optical Fiber based precision measurement System for Industrial Application.
3.Design and Development of Micro-controller based Optical robot
4.Design and Development of Remote Setting Device for Underwater Mine.
5.Design and Development of fiber Optic Distributed Pressure Sensor.
6.Design and Development of Fiber Optic Gyroscope.
7.Fiber Optic Multi parameter Sensor for Aircraft flight Control system
8.Software to Estimate Environmental Changes.
9.Passive Millimeter Wave Imaging Passive Millimeter.
10.Multispectral Classification Algorithm
11.Target Detection
12.CW CO2 Laser

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 30 Mar 2009 21:18

Austin wrote:Great News , finally the army accepts that this exotic missile with "special sensors" is truly special

Indeed, this is first official confirmation of a new sensor, that was being speculated/proposed by members on this board and we had our own portion of debate on, if that is only a new sensor or only a new algorithm. Clearly is "not only" but both. It is a day to rejoice.

Arun_S wrote:Yup!! The jagged edge can be clearly seen, the corresponding jagged edges on right hand side is reduced due to perspective angle and/or partly covered composite panel (I have seen that in an earlier video frame by frame to discriminate and exclude other possibilities).
So Arun , this jagged edges helps in reducing the frontal rcs of brahmos ?

Yes that is classical and most effective method to reduce RCS for almost any RF band. The jagged edge give tapered propagation path that impedance matches the RF absorbing material as well as reflect residual RF energy in a direction away from the incident angle.

Can we have a ballpark figure of frontal rcs of Brahmos block 1 and then if this reduces rcs with jagged edges the frontal rcs of blk 2

Can't speculate on Block-I but with the jagged RF stealth feature one can realize marble sized RCS in the frontal +/- 20 degree angle.

JMT.
------------
Edited to correct spelling mistakes. See I am onlee a "dehaati"; Firang chalay gaayey, par saalay firangi chod gaayey. Par aapun nay firangi ki band bajaa dee

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2009 21:51

IN & IAF should consider the Block II upgrades for their versions for precision strike missions from sea and air.

GD, It also puts all their maal at risk even if its hidden in tunnels and ug shelters.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 30 Mar 2009 22:01

Arun_s
You made my day with your dehati Muhawarra. Some how I have a feeling if Army hadn't come out with honest opinion and accepted Brahmos, BRFites would have gone for "Dharna" at Amy HQ in R K Puram.

I propose, if our forces don't buy our desi maal, we start launching protests, start burning effigies of "Complicit Officers" start exposing them and put their blackened effigies on gadha.

Since these tests proved the engineering and technology of Desi MMW, we should integrate that with Nag missile and lets go head on with Konkur, Crotale, Milan etc.

Hats off to Navy again, going for desi maal over phoren junk.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Mar 2009 22:04

for IN, there should be a different logic considering the surface target is movable (from 30-70knots) like A/C, attack ships, and perhaps subs on surface. There could be clutter when the target say is shuffled, and rearranged after the launch.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 30 Mar 2009 22:16

Hearty congratulations to DRDO. So now the Army and Navy will both use the Block II version? Has the Navy tested this version?

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 30 Mar 2009 22:21

I request DRDO to come up with new missile that is not within MTCR domain, use all this new technology specifically designed for Army&Navy, call it Alligator. "Jo Jameen pey dadagiri karey, who paani mein bhi dadagiri karey".

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2009 22:25

for navy req on ASM mission block1 is good enough. even the kolkata class is unlikely to have more than 8-12 brahmos silos.

we need masha-allah a land attack oriented LPH-CG-mki that can sanitize large
areas for ASW and *pound* land targets with 48 rounds

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 30 Mar 2009 22:36

Kolkotas will have 16 brahmos missiles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2009 22:43

with a 290km max range and the need to keep reasonably clear of the coast to
avoid massed air attacks, the utility of brahmos as a land attack weapon from sea is not much (for army and IAF it is very useful).

I would think Nirbhay when it appears will be the std land attack desi-tomahawk
conventional LACM for IN ships and submarines(tube launched from SSK also).

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 30 Mar 2009 22:46

Singha wrote:for navy req on ASM mission block1 is good enough.

IMHO, Block 2 is desirable for the specific scenario of Pak surface assets in close proximity with commercial ships to make targeting difficult for IN.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 30 Mar 2009 22:48

Baljeet wrote:"Jo Jameen pey dadagiri karey, who paani mein bhi dadagiri karey".

Best quote . How bout starting a signature campaign for what we want from DRDO.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2009 23:30

I said "for precision strike from sea".

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2009 23:51

Thanks Arun for that info , yes its simply awesome to have those pinpoint clutter strike capability at high supersonic speed , the LO RCS does the icing on the cake.

Ramana since IAF is yet to start with its test of air launched brahmos they can directly graduate to Block 2 variant , the IA new batch should be of the same type.

The existing IN and IA Brahmos Block 1 might just continue with what it is , retrofitting it to Block 2 standard will depend on how cost effective it is to do it and if it is needed at all.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 31 Mar 2009 00:50

Moi is no missile expert but sneaking into this thread to offer my congrats to DRDO for a job well done... (salute).

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 31 Mar 2009 01:06

Great!
Congratulations!
Rejoice!

Now, back to work.
Why we designed such a precision weapon?
To Use it of course. So lets make sure it happens.

Lets export the Brahmos Block II to the following countries.
Afghanistan, Taiwan, and Japan.

targets:
Pakistan houses all the bad guys in the region
China finances pakistan to house all the bad guys in the region
North Korea tests the "satellite rockets" (AKA missiles) for pakistan

India exporting these babies by the hundreds will bring the cost down for our own forces.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 31 Mar 2009 03:00

ToI, which is famous for not missing single chance to bash DRDO's failures seems has taken cover. Their DDM's are at work still finding BrahMos 'Clock' technology glitches.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 31 Mar 2009 03:53

kobe wrote:Lets export the Brahmos Block II to the following countries.
Afghanistan, Taiwan, and Japan.

First feed the hungry Indian Army, Navy and AF, before thinking of feeding BrahMos to other countries.

Talking of Japan, I hear Japanese suffer from an virulent disease named "NIH" (Not Invented Here), so you can take the horse to water, but cant make the Sumo drink the juice

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 31 Mar 2009 04:03

TOI: BrahMos ready for induction: Army

31 Mar 2009,
NEW DELHI: The Army on Monday gave the green signal for the induction of the new version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, which has been
developed to act as a precision-strike weapon in a "clustered urban environment''.

Army vice-chief Lt-Gen Noble Thamburaj said the third test of the 290-km-range BrahMos Block-II missile, the first test of which had failed on January 20, at Pokhran on Sunday had been analyzed to be "extremely successful''.

"Accuracy was the watchword. We had wanted them (BrahMos Aerospace) to include a new sensor in the missile. That is what these last three trials were all about. Because more than the naval version, in Army, we wanted the missile to distinguish between similar kind of targets in urban areas,'' he said.

"The process of induction will now start. After carrying out the three field trials, the Army is absolutely satisfied,'' he added, on the sidelines of a seminar organised by Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS).

Both Army and Navy are already inducting the BrahMos Block-I missiles. While Army has ordered two BrahMos regiments in the first phase at a cost of Rs 8,352 crore, with 134 missiles, 10 road-mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 Tatra vehicles and four mobile command posts, the Navy has ordered 49 BrahMos firing units at a cost of Rs 711 crore.

Pointing out the importance of "firepower'' during combat, Lt-Gen Thamburaj said the missile's "accuracy, lethality and range'' made it "a deadly combination''.

The Army vice-chief said it was important to possess both short and long-range artillery weapon systems because the battlefield was "no longer linear''. "We got to apply our firepower on targets in depth with our special forces operating there during battle. So, longer range weapons give the commander greater flexibility,'' he added.

As reported earlier, the eventual plan of armed forces is to have nuclear-tipped land-attack cruise missiles with strike ranges in excess of 1,500 km.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Mar 2009 04:13

The numbers don't add up from the above report. 14.5 crores per missile for navy & 62.3 crores per missile for army ?

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 31 Mar 2009 05:30

Arun_S wrote:
kobe wrote:Lets export the Brahmos Block II to the following countries.
Afghanistan, Taiwan, and Japan.
First feed the hungry Indian Army, Navy and AF, before thinking of feeding BrahMos to other countries.

Talking of Japan, I hear Japanese suffer from an virulent disease named "NIH" (Not Invented Here), so you can take the horse to water, but cant make the Sumo drink the juice

as far as military hardware the japanese are suffering from CNBIH (can not be invented here) syndrom. it is an antidote for NIH virus.

sivabala · Post by **sivabala** » 31 Mar 2009 05:42

There seems to be some truth in the recent scandal getting published in DNAindia about MRSAM contract.
a) Earlier around 15 sqns of Akash were planned. Now just 2~3 will be procured. I guess Saraswat mentioned in an interview. Though Akash is ready but not MRSAM, wonder as a stop gap why Akash is not being produced. Atleast the akash associated Radars will give good coverage of the air space.

b) There was a report in Hindu some time back saying that DRDO is forced to coopt with Israel though all the related technologies are available in house. I guess the writer was TSS. The article published in DNA today also mentioned the same.

c) If the Indo-Israeli cooperation is purely for R&D why should there be the 6% business expense.

d) Why is the government not investing that 10000 crore (M/LRSAM budget) in DRDO where as they are merrily spending in cooperation with another country. I guess DRDO's total annual budget itself is 6000 crores. I think the M/LRSAM's business expense of 6% (i.e. 600 crore) is the expenditure for developing Akash from scratch. I am really wondering what happened to those bean counters who question the cost overrun in every other DRDO project.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Mar 2009 07:06

Please read the few psots above. The requiremens have changed and hence the need for this weapon. And its the DRDO that is in sync with this proposal. For once things are happening rihgt and thats why the Commies are sabotaging this procurement. The threat is from PRC. Connect the dots.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 31 Mar 2009 09:21

Cybaru wrote:The numbers don't add up from the above report. 14.5 crores per missile for navy & 62.3 crores per missile for army ?

Maybe the additional expense is for launch vehicles, and command post. Maybe some cost difference is also due to block 1, 2 difference.