Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Singha]

the surrendering mujahid looks like a cross between forrest gump in his jogging guru kit & steve jobs - truly a man who has wandered through many a dimensional portal.

[Virupaksha]

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief

As the leader of an organization that prides itself on its apolitical ethos, the good Gen. should have kept his counsel to himself on a matter involving subversion of political process & holding Constitutional propriety hostage. Unfortunate.

Though strictly speaking I will have to say that good general was speaking in very very general terms and held his counsel. That statement can be interpreted in 10000 ways, which basically means he said nothing . It was a "no comment" type of answer.

Hiten ji, dont go by the headline. That was the interpretation and extrapolation by the sensationalist journalist.

[Prem]

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief
I am also noting that congress is also trying to politicize the army. A clear indication was the oppurtunistic Sachar committe which the Indian army had to put out forcibly.

Sachar committe was/is a front for opertaionalizing /applying Khalidhi's idea to undermine national security by weaking the core. Had Army not put the foot down, India as we know would have gone to wind in few decades. Now Anna has put his foot down on the political side to stop the Khalidization of internal social-economic security.

[abhishek_sharma]

It’s power of the people: Army chief

General Singh equated corruption to a hydra-headed monster. “Because we all are involved in its thriving. If we introspect, we will see that at one point or another, we are all involved in it,” he said.

“When the Naxalite movement (issue) was presented to us, we were very clear in our minds that it is a socio-economic problem, a problem created by bad governance,” he said. “Army is not the answer (to Naxal problem)... Army has a role in preventing external aggression. Army has a role in assisting in humanitarian crisis.”

“But beyond that, in our country, at least the way the Army has come up, we do not think that we have a role,” he said.

[jimmy_moh]

^^ well said chief.....

[Khalsa]

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief

As the leader of an organization that prides itself on its apolitical ethos, the good Gen. should have kept his counsel to himself on a matter involving subversion of political process & holding Constitutional propriety hostage. Unfortunate.

Coming from an Army Family I agree Hiten.

Soldiers should bite their tongue when it comes to political issues .... period.
Its a dangerous precedent that is irreversible ...... next time around the foray increases.

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.

Theirs not to question why ........

[chetak]

Support for Anna shows power of democracy: Army Chief

As the leader of an organization that prides itself on its apolitical ethos, the good Gen. should have kept his counsel to himself on a matter involving subversion of political process & holding Constitutional propriety hostage. Unfortunate

Coming from an Army Family I agree Hiten.

Soldiers should bite their tongue when it comes to political issues .... period.
Its a dangerous precedent that is irreversible ...... next time around the foray increases.

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.

Theirs not to question why ........

khalsa ji,

The general is leaving soon and is just getting back at the govt for reducing his tenure and foisting upon him a false date of birth.

I don't really think that faujis in general ( pun intended!) will do this.

[ASPuar]

Coming from an Army Family I agree Hiten.

Soldiers should bite their tongue when it comes to political issues .... period.
Its a dangerous precedent that is irreversible ...... next time around the foray increases.

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.

Theirs not to question why ........

Theirs only to do or die?

The army is under attack from all sides in govt. Their officers and jawans are sick and tired of this nonsense. Government should wake up and realise the army is not superhuman. Keep mistreating it, and something VERY BAD could happen.

[Surya]

Khalsa wrote:

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.

come on - you think the Army does not know!!!

But if a country starts rotting to the core then what ???

An abusive Govt and bureaucracy will have to be restrained by someone!!!!

[chetak]

Coming from an Army Family I agree Hiten.

Soldiers should bite their tongue when it comes to political issues .... period.
Its a dangerous precedent that is irreversible ...... next time around the foray increases.

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.

Theirs not to question why ........

Theirs only to do or die?

The army is under attack from all sides in govt. Their officers and jawans are sick and tired of this nonsense. Government should wake up and realise the army is not superhuman. Keep mistreating it, and something VERY BAD could happen.

The malaise started with chacha nehru.

He had only the supreme contempt for the soldier.

But seriously, I agree with you. The Army has just about had enough of wantonly generated bad publicity generated by motivated channels and unwashed and uncrowned politicos like omar the circumcised.

[Vipul]

Govt raises questions of high costs, stall's Army's plans on China border.

The massive military modernization along the China border, including the setting up of the country's first Mountain Strike Corps, has run into a new hurdle with the government raising questions about the high capital expenditure involved in it.

Sources said the defence ministry has returned the Army proposal to set up the strike corps, and two independent brigades along the China border. The MoD has raised detailed queries about the high capital costs projected by Army headquarters. The Army has projected an expenditure of over Rs 12,000 crore for the entire proposal, which is part of New Delhi's efforts to catch up with China which has steadily built up outstanding military capabilities and infrastructure along the disputed Sino-Indian border.

The Army had sent the proposal to the MoD sometime in early 2010, for putting it up to the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval. In April, the PM had offered all government support for Army modernization along the China border during a presentation to him by the Army top brass. The Army leadership appraised the PM about the overwhelming capabilities of the People's Liberation Army along the border with India during the presentation.

Despite the PM's assurance, the MoD has now raised questions about the Army's assessment of Rs 12,000 crore needed to set up the new formations, and sent back the file to Army headquarters. "The concern is about the high capital expenditure projected by Army headquarters," senior sources said.

The Army proposes to set up the country's first Mountain Strike Corps and two independent brigades along the border with China. The corps would be India's fourth strike corps, and the first one for dedicated offensive operations in mountainous terrain. This is besides the two mountain divisions already being raised along the China border.

One of the independent brigades is to be stationed in Ladakh while the other would be based in Uttarakhand. The proposed corps could be headquartered at Pannagarh in West Bengal, a recent report said.

Sources said once the Army headquarters replies to the MoD query and other clarifications are settled, the file would be processed for final approval. "We are hopeful that it can be cleared this financial year," a senior source said.

Since the humiliating defeat in 1962, India has been on an extremely defensive posture along the China border, including a deliberate decision not to develop border infrastructure. In the process, as New Delhi stood by, China built up an impressive border infrastructure and capability to mobilize almost 500,000 troops in a matter of a few weeks to the Line of Actual Control with India.

[ramana]

Its the babas and Mantirs that sign the bills that come due. So if MoD thinks that the estimate is too high they can be happy when the bills come in low.

So why stall and reject at this time when there is clear an present danger? I think its another of AKA's stalling military modernisation moves since he took over.

Earlier it was procurement corruption. Now its cost estimates Not real expenditure but just estimates!

[Virupaksha]

Wasnt Chidu shouting from rooftops during budget speech that the army will get whatever it needs?

What about the thousands of crores that were being sent back from defence budget all these years? IIRC it was an average of 5000 crore per year.

[Manish_Sharma]

So only in american deals like c 17 there is no bean counting, suddenly they are reported in press and with lightening speed cleared while others like raising new strike coprs against panda and MRTT are questioned as too expensive.

[Prem]

Aint 12k Crore less than what was spent on CWG just few months ago ?
Honesty kills and in this case , it is about to sign the death warrants of thousands of sons of India at the hands of slimiest of the enemies.

[Khalsa]

Khalsa wrote:

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.

come on - you think the Army does not know!!!

But if a country starts rotting to the core then what ???

An abusive Govt and bureaucracy will have to be restrained by someone!!!!

If the country starts rotting to the core then I expect you to join me in repeating the Arab spring or becoming another Anna Hazare.
Why the hell are you going to sit on your seat and wait for the Army to fix everything in the country .... how lazy is that ?


If you want the army to stem corruption .... then rename us .... call us Pakistan 2.0
Absolute power corrupts. Army men are good and efficient and pure because they have no civilian powers. Give them that power and watch then turn into something else over time.

[Khalsa]

Coming from an Army Family I agree Hiten.

Soldiers should bite their tongue when it comes to political issues .... period.
Its a dangerous precedent that is irreversible ...... next time around the foray increases.

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.
Theirs not to question why ........

Theirs only to do or die?
The army is under attack from all sides in govt. Their officers and jawans are sick and tired of this nonsense. Government should wake up and realise the army is not superhuman. Keep mistreating it, and something VERY BAD could happen.

Please get up and do something about it. Stop instigating the army to do something... VERY VERY BAD !!
Do something good.... thats what Anna Hazare did for his village ... for Maharashtra and Hindustan... he did not go to army.

Lets rise together..... Lets stop waiting for the army.

[Aditya_V]

quote="Khalsa"]
Coming from an Army Family I agree Hiten.

Soldiers should bite their tongue when it comes to political issues .... period.
Its a dangerous precedent that is irreversible ...... next time around the foray increases.

Note: I am an ardent supporter of Anna but know the place where army should be kept.
Theirs not to question why ......../quote]

Theirs only to do or die?
The army is under attack from all sides in govt. Their officers and jawans are sick and tired of this nonsense. Government should wake up and realise the army is not superhuman. Keep mistreating it, and something VERY BAD could happen.

Please get up and do something about it. Stop instigating the army to do something... VERY VERY BAD !!
Do something good.... thats what Anna Hazare did for his village ... for Maharashtra and Hindustan... he did not go to army.

Lets rise together..... Lets stop waiting for the army.

Nobody is instigating anyone and Anna Hazare is a retired Army man.

ASPuar is just commenting at the shabby treatment given to the Army by the Govt. and Media. Nothing wrong in it.

[Kakkaji]

I agree with Khalsaji. Serving military officers should not comment on the political situation. It is a slippery slope from there.

[Surya]

aha I love these great leap forward

From a couple of comments from army officers we leap forward to Pakistan 2.0

Now let me check the part where i mentioned that the Army should take over!!!! oh i never did. but hey why care about little things like that.

brilliant!!!!!

[Khalsa]

Surya, I do admit I jumped way ahead
but coming from an army family I want my army (family) involved as less as can be with any news, politician as much possible.
and by calling us a Pak 2.0 it was knee jerk reaction ....

but fact still stands.... no army man at any rank should comment or lend weight against evil or good.
That responsibility stands with the common man. He needs to get up and do something about it.


In this matter of army men giving internal opinion we must become the 10 % of the population that learns from the mistakes of others.
We must not make them and then learn.....

[Surya]

Khalsa

I understand the army is not utopian soln to ur problems

but i think its not a bad idea if the odd Army General speaks his mind out a bit more.

Else the babus and politicos will run roughshod

let the damn politicians have a little fear

it won't hurt

[Nikhil T]

Aint 12k Crore less than what was spent on CWG just few months ago ?
Honesty kills and in this case , it is about to sign the death warrants of thousands of sons of India at the hands of slimiest of the enemies.

Guys, lets put this in perspective. The MoD hasn't rejected the case. It has asked for clarifications. A complex plan like this with tens of thousands of men, machinery and tens of land bases will naturally evoke genuine questions. Give the leadership some credit. Do you think that with the C-17 deal, the IAF just forwarded the file and the MoD inked it on the first look? The question is not that the money is not there, the question is whether it is judiciously spent.

This process is natural and will come to conclusion. Its already August, i.e. 5 months in the financial year, so even getting it completed in 7 months will prove to be a challenge.

[ASPuar]

Please get up and do something about it. Stop instigating the army to do something... VERY VERY BAD !!
Do something good.... thats what Anna Hazare did for his village ... for Maharashtra and Hindustan... he did not go to army.

Lets rise together..... Lets stop waiting for the army.

Boss, please mind your language. I have not instigated anyone, and nor do I intend to.

I have simply stated that mismanagement of the armed forces can cause a disaster. And mismanagement is what is going on.

It is the responsibility of the senior leadership of the armed forces to address the issues which affect their rank and file, and its welfare. Please do not labour under any misconception that armed forces leadership are not supposed to speak out when their soldiers are being ill treated by the various arms of government.

The canard of "coup", or "civil supremacy" (misinterpreted to read Bureaucratic Supremacy) is too often used as a bogus excuse to deny the troops their legitimate dues, and to quash any complaint against such misbehaviour by civil bureaucracy. If you read through Armed Forces Tribunal judgments, you will routinely see cases of mistreatment, like even jawans who have had limbs blown off, being denied disability pension by CDA. Of cases upon cases being filed against veterans to deny them benefits. Its a bad situation.

So let us avoid any further unwarranted hyperbole, and please spare me these preachy sermons. I dont think there is technically anything wrong with the Generals comment on Anna Hazare, as he is not a politician, and doesnt have a political agenda. But if you have read the Generals original comment, it is hardly anything very inflammatory. The media has misquoted him in headlines.

[ASPuar]

Here is the General's quote:

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... r-movement

Anti-corruption movement depicts 'power of people': Army chief V K Singh

"We are passing through an interesting and turbulent period. Interesting in terms of how we are witnessing the power of democracy, the power of the people.. Interesting in terms of how we are seeing our leadership cope up with these things..," he said".

There is nothing terribly controversial about it. He has responded to the reporters question about "What do you think of Anna Hazares movement" with tact and diplomacy. He does not say (as the headline more inflammatorily suggests) that the movement "depicts the power of the people". He makes a general comment about witnessing the power of the people.

Now what is wrong with that? Its a general comment. He has neither endorsed, nor specifically spoken about Anna. He has made a general and vague observation. When they didnt get a spicy comment from the General, they decided to manufacture one. Media is habitually twisting and misrepresenting the words of the military chiefs, in order to create some controversy.

Did anyone even READ the General's original comment before deciding to launch into analysis of how service officers should not get involved in political commentary?

[uddu]

Nothing wrong in those comments. It was not a political comment. It was not aimed at any party or anything. Just said what he is observed. He just let us all know about it. Nothing wrong in it. He never mentioned anything about bill or politics. So totally apolitical comment.

[Philip]

Manish,you're spot on! When Boeing's ass is on the line and C-17 production to end,we jump in like Superman to save Boeing's profits.These C-17s costing $10+ billion,were being touted as the magic carpets with which to speedily send into the Himalayas our troops and tanks to ward off the "yellow devils" too.But now with the estimates being "too expensive" they will fly empty! Ye Gods! Whom are the MOD/PMO trying to fool? The latest reports that China can very quickly throw into Tibet 30 divisions,with a 3 to 1 advantage against India,I suppose means nothing tpo our great warriors,capable of only dealing with half-naked sadhus and fasting Gandhians,that too with the greatest of difficulty!

[chetak]

Manish,you're spot on! When Boeing's ass is on the line and C-17 production to end,we jump in like Superman to save Boeing's profits.These C-17s costing $10+ billion,were being touted as the magic carpets with which to speedily send into the Himalayas our troops and tanks to ward off the "yellow devils" too.But now with the estimates being "too expensive" they will fly empty! Ye Gods! Whom are the MOD/PMO trying to fool? The latest reports that China can very quickly throw into Tibet 30 divisions,with a 3 to 1 advantage against India,I suppose means nothing tpo our great warriors,capable of only dealing with half-naked sadhus and fasting Gandhians,that too with the greatest of difficulty!

Arre Philip ji,

At least quote Manish for us to link up the comment.

[ramana]

So only in american deals like c 17 there is no bean counting, suddenly they are reported in press and with lightening speed cleared while others like raising new strike coprs against panda and MRTT are questioned as too expensive.

Chetak, the post is on this page itself.

[Khalsa]

Here is the General's quote:
Did anyone even READ the General's original comment before deciding to launch into analysis of how service officers should not get involved in political commentary?

I disagree with you
You disagree with me

Let us leave it at that.

[Sanku]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Army-chie ... 39012.aspx

Army chief takes age row to minister

In an unprecedented development, Indian Army chief General VK Singh has filed a statutory complaint under the Army Act stating that the government order on his date of birth was unjust and has requested defence minister AK Antony to re-examine the issue purely on merits. On July
22, the government had rejected General Singh's contention that his date of birth was May 10, 1951 and ruled that it was actually May 10, 1950.

Defence ministry sources said Singh filed the statutory complaint with Antony on August 26 and according to the rules, it is mandatory that the grievance be addressed in 90 days. It is learnt that the complaint filed by the army chief runs into nearly 500 pages with detailed annexures containing documentation to substantiate his claim.

[ASPuar]

B5, Z10, N32

[rohitvats]

I realy hope that the decision should go in favor of VKS; he has done many right things and it is important that he stays for the full course. He has ruffled many a feathers with his straight forward and no nonsense approach. If need be, he should approach the court; the GOI/Babus need to understand that they can't fvck around with services...every time they've done so, we've had Thapars and Kauls running the show.

[ASPuar]

I realy hope that the decision should go in favor of VKS; he has done many right things and it is important that he stays for the full course. He has ruffled many a feathers with his straight forward and no nonsense approach. If need be, he should approach the court; the GOI/Babus need to understand that they can fvck around with services...every time they've done so, we've had Thapars and Kauls running the show.

True. I wonder why the so called "succession plan" is so important? Shouldnt any of the officers at the rank of Army commander be competent to become the chief? Why this obsession to follow a certain track?

[rajanb]

I realy hope that the decision should go in favor of VKS; he has done many right things and it is important that he stays for the full course. He has ruffled many a feathers with his straight forward and no nonsense approach. If need be, he should approach the court; the GOI/Babus need to understand that they can fvck around with services...every time they've done so, we've had Thapars and Kauls running the show.

Totally agree with you Rohit.

That the government has meddled in the armed forces in the past makes me wonder if we have the type of strategists and taciticians we had in '65 and '71 as compared to '62.

[ticky]

. If need be, he should approach the court; the GOI/Babus need to understand that they can fvck around with services.

Typo??? of all the damn place and time to occur, ain't it ?

[Philip]

Can someone throw some light on the issue regarding the COAS's B'day.Which record should the MOD take as has been done in the past? What is the correct procedure as per Army rules.I personally feel that to suddenly change his DOB to "Y",which for his entire entire career has been taken as "X",is ridiculous.

[ASPuar]

General rules for government service dates of birth (which apply to the Army also), state that the Date of Birth in the Class X certificate is the gold standard for determining date of birth.

The confusion in the Chief's case is that two different branches of the Army HQ have been maintaining different dates.

The date as per his birth certificate and the UPSC exam entry form is the later one, which is what the Chief is maintaining.

The Adjutant General's branch, responsible for salaries, retirement, pensions, has been maintaining the Chief's date of Birth as May 10, 1951. The Adjutant Generals branch is the official record keeper of the Army.

The Military Secretary's branch (responsible for promotions and postings) has been maintaining it as May 10, 1950.

The Chief's Class X certificate, and forms at the time of joining the army show May 10, 1951.

The law ministry, and three retired Chief Justices of India have clearly stated that in light of the fact that 1951 is the date entered at time of joining army, and also on the Class X certificate, that is the CORRECT DATE.

MoD is maintaining that since 1950 is a date which is convenient for it to promote its favoured officer as Chief, the Chief must accept that date. This, of course, is an illegality. If the COAS challenges it in court (which would be a very drastic step), he would likely win, given the preponderance of legal opinion and evidences in favour of the Chief.

What the Chief is saying is, "if you really want to cut my tenure short, just do it by official order. Dont make it look like I am lying about my date of birth, just because you want a particular person to become the Chief".

It is pertinent to note that previous Chief Gen Deepak Kapoor and present Chief Gen VK Singh did not get along. It is also pertinent to note that the previous chief did all he could to prevent the current chief from ascending to the post, including forcing him to sign a letter accepting the earlier date of birth in lieu of not blocking his promotion. It is also interesting to note that the Military Secretary, at the time of this occurrance was LtGen Avadesh Prakash, who later went down in flames in the so called Sukna land scam.

[jai]

Gen VKS is known as the court martial Chief in IA due to the sheer number of court martials he has initiated in the IA to stem corruption at every level. He's in fact lived up to his promise of cleaning up the army and is quite well liked by the force except those who are less than spotless.

Pan walas say lobbies are at play at the behest of those who gain the most from the chief retiring now v/s later ....

[Surya]

shudders at the name of the former COAS.

The misfortune of the IA to have suck lousy men as COAS