Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

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John Snow
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by John Snow »

Following a briefing by National Security Adviser M K Narayanan on the nuclear deal, the Samajwadi Party on Wednesday said it wants PM to clarify his stand before the public.
Ha the puranas after all are right, all this wheeling and dealing is mentioned in the
Narayaneyam, so this deal is pushed by Narayanan in NSA, in USA, and in maya world of Cyber space.

Narayanam, Anatham, Achutam, Adbhutam Ascharyavadam, samvaadam.!

Narayaneyam:
The Lord himself enacted Krishna dancing on the Kaaliya and the Kaaliya mardhanam slokas in the Narayaneeyam are set to the same tempo as Sri Krishna's dance.
The author of this great work is Meppattur Narayana Bhattatiri,
Chelenga kutti odi odi vayu, yenna samrakanna ode ode vayu...
NRao
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

IF MMS goes to IAEA and NSG and gets signed deals, is he stating that he will not go to the US Congress if Indian parliament is against the signed deals with IAEA and NSG?
ramana
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

SP needs more persuasion and seeks coverage as the briefing wasnt upto the mark.

Umrao Jaan dont quote Hindu slokas in this forum or else others will start liturgy and Koran.
Thanks,ramana
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

>>SP needs more persuasion and seeks coverage as the briefing wasnt upto the mark.

It (the briefing) was more for public consumption imho, there is a concerted effort to build a perception that there is something vital and hidden in the secret deal that Left parties are not being made aware of.

medis spin was that as soon as Amar Singh was 'whisked off', sometime in the afternoon, in a govt car to a meeting with the NSA where he was given a special briefing on the deal which cleared all his doubts and he henceforth emerged an enlightened man.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

Next steps in the nuclear deal
T P Sreenivasan | July 02, 2008 | 17:32 IST

T P Sreenivasan, a former governor who represented India at the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, discusses the next steps in the nuclear deal in an eloquent explanation, exclusive to rediff.com

No one, not even the government, seems to be sure what the exact scenario will be for operationalising the nuclear deal in the remaining months of the Bush and Manmohan Singh administrations.
The only thing that is certain is that if the process drags out into the next year, the nuclear deal will go into cold storage till the new leaders of the two countries reach a level of comfort with each other and the issue.

Our starving nuclear installations will remain monuments of lack of political insight, ideological dogma and confrontational mindset. The nuclear deal will not be an election issue in the United States. Foreign affairs, even Iraq, will not be in the forefront. But it will figure prominently in India like the inscrutable 'foreign hand' has played a role in previous elections. The moves of the government and the Opposition will be determined by this fact.

If the government is serious about moving the deal forward and not seeking an 'honourable exit' as a Leftist spokesman claimed, even at the risk of losing its majority in Parliament, it has to move swiftly and with orchestrated precision.

The scene has already shifted to Vienna and the waltz there will determine the outcome. In considering the next steps, the rules of the International Atomic Energy Agency as well as the practices in the Nuclear Suppliers Group will have to be weighed carefully.

There is a theory being floated by some political parties and others that once the deal goes to the IAEA Board, it will be on 'auto pilot' and the government will have no control over its progress through the Nuclear Suppliers Group and the United States Congress.

The deal would be like a flight that recently overflew Mumbai without timely action by the pilots. They believe that new conditions will be added without India's consent or even knowledge! Nothing would be further from the truth. India will be repeatedly asked to explain the different clauses of the agreement and we will have to continue to lobby with the doubting Thomases to relent. There is no automaticity to the process and the deal may be tied up in knots. India will still be in the driving seat and skilful piloting will be required to reach it to the desired destination.

Another theory is that if India goes to the IAEA and the NSG with a minority or caretaker government in place, the international community will refuse to give the necessary approvals because of lack of majority support for the government. The US has already stated that it could not be bothered whether the government that signs the deal has the required majority in Parliament or not. They are very tolerant of aberrations in democracies in developing countries.

The other members of the Board would not be concerned about this aspect. The basic fact is that the IAEA is a specialised agency of the United Nations and the rules that apply there are the same rules that do not care about the nature of the governments in member States.

As long as the Indian governor on the Board remains loyal to the government, no one will ask whether his government is in a majority or not, particularly if there is constitutional propriety in its functioning. Of course, there is a mechanism by which the credentials of the governor can be challenged, but the precedents for such challenges in the United Nations are few and exceptional. In the IAEA, the only precedent was when Israel's credentials were challenged soon after the bombing of the Ossirak reactor, a case of a very different nature.

As to whether an IAEA spokesperson was right in his prediction that the whole matter could be dealt with if the board is given two days notice and half a session, nobody can say. Indeed, many routine safeguards agreements are approved in less time. He was talking about issues on which there is general consensus and the board approval is a matter of formality.

On contentious issues like Iran, the Board is known to have dragged on, while the matter was negotiated in small groups. The Board can meet at short notice, but nobody can dictate the speed. Since the agreement in question is India specific and its clauses have been debated in the media, the members may be ready with questions about its desirability and viability.

Director General Mohammad Elbaradei has tremendous prestige and a recommendation from him has much weight, but this is not a proposal from him and he cannot go beyond a point in championing its cause. His support has been personal and not constitutional as the deal is outside the purview of the NPT, which he is supposed to guard and implement.

The NSG is not even a formal body and its record so far is in tightening, not relaxing its 'guidelines.' The unpredictability is even greater here because of the consensus rule, which enables the smallest and the most insignificant supplier, with the least interest in the deal, to show his might. They do not have to oppose the deal to kill it; they merely have to ask general questions on proliferation dangers and open up a Pandora's Box on India's nuclear assets.

Issues of principle in treating India differently from others will be raised. The deal could remain entangled in a new set of issues for a long time. The outcome will determine the success we have registered in lobbying the NSG members in the last two years. As far as China is concerned, its attitude cannot be anticipated as yet.

None of these scenarios need to deter the government from going forward because these issues will not be resolved unless they are actually tried out. If it has the courage to defy its leftist allies, there is no better time to tackle these issues than now. An enthusiastic US administration, a supportive IAEA director general and the mood for a nuclear renaissance because of the price of fossil fuels and the dangers of climate change are factors that may not be available if the present opportunity is lost.

Note: I must thank Air India, without whose poor maintenance of its aircraft, this would not have been written. I flew Air India Business Class from Delhi to New York the other day. I tried to read, but the reading lights were out of order. Then I tried to watch a movie, but the screen in front of me would not respond to the commands from me. The only thing I could do was to pull out my laptop and write. Of course, the power plug on my chair did not work, but a change of seat did the trick!
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

Left may withdraw support before July 6

On the brink
ONE tempestuous moment during the June 25 meeting of the United Progressive Alliance (UPA)-Left parties coordination committee symbolises, in many ways, the deterioration in the relations between the two sides, both in terms of the India-U.S. civilian nuclear deal and in the larger political sphere.

The moment came in the latter part of the one-and-a-half-hour-long meeting and involved an interaction among Revolutionary Socialist Party (RSP) general secretary T.J. Chandrachoodan, External Affairs Minister Pranab Kumar Mukherjee and Communist Party of India (Marxist) general secretary Prakash Karat. The build-up to it was provided by the government, which strongly pitched for finalising the India-specific safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

Mukherjee, representing the government, contended that finalising the safeguards text with the Board of Governors of the IAEA would not by itself put the nuclear deal on autopilot with the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). Chandrachoodan responded by paraphrasing an allegory in his mother tongue, Malayalam, which presented the picture of a goat being taken to the slaughterhouse through a series of allurements. He said the Manmohan Singh government should not equate the Left parties with the metaphorical goat and stated categorically that the Left would withdraw support to the government if it sought the IAEA Board’s approval of the text of the safeguards agreement.

The manner in which Chandrachoodan depicted the Left position irritated Pranab Mukherjee and he reportedly asked Prakash Karat whether he too subscribed to Chandrachoodan’s views. Karat was emphatic that the RSP leader’s presentation reflected the Left’s collective decision.

According to a number of participants in the meeting, there was nothing much left to discuss after this bitter exchange. As Prakash Karat acknowledged later in an interaction with Frontline, the positions of the two sides were clearly laid out and the country, evidently, was going through a political crisis. As far as positions on the issues discussed on June 25 were concerned, the Left parties were of the view that proceeding to the IAEA Board would be a violation of the agreement reached by the UPA-Left coordination committee on November 16, 2007. The committee had decided that the government could hold discussions with the IAEA Secretariat on the India-specific safeguards on the condition that the outcome of the talks would be presented to the committee for its consideration.

On June 25, the Left parties pointed out that the outcome of the talks had not been presented fully before the committee. And they made it clear that they were not ready to allow the government to finalise the text of the safeguards agreement unless the government fulfilled its November 16 commitment.

The government, on its part, said it should be allowed to finalise the safeguards agreement. Once that was done, it offered to come back to the Left parties for more detailed discussions, involving possible course correction measures too. In the run-up to the June 25 meeting, UPA leaders such as Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar said that once the safeguards agreement was finalised, the government would even be ready to take a ‘Sense of the House’ before moving to complete other formalities for the operationalisation of the nuclear deal.

to succumb to such tactics because once the safeguards agreement is finalised with the Board of Governors of the IAEA, there is no need for any Indian initiative to clear the nuclear deal with the NSG, paving the way, practically, for the operationalisation of the deal,” the leader said.

By all indications, it was not merely the specifics discussed during the run-up to and in the course of the June 25 meeting that generated a feeling in the Left parties that they were being prepared as potential targets for ‘political salami slicing’. According to a number of senior Left leaders, many political manoeuvres of the UPA and subsequent developments in the period between December 2007 and June 2008 gave rise to such thinking.

One of the factors that contributed significantly to the growing distrust was the political context of the November 2007 agreement between the two sides. It was clear even then that the UPA government would not be able to finalise the nuclear deal in a politically legitimate manner. The majority of the political parties, representing the majority of Members of Parliament, were opposed to the deal. The principal opposition, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), was opposed to the deal. So were the Left parties, whose support was vital for the government’s survival.

Several constituents of the UPA, such as the Lalu Prasad-led Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD), the M. Karunanidhi-led Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) and the Sharad Pawar-led Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) were of the view that there was no need to push the deal through at the cost of the government.

A face-saver

In such a context, the UPA-Left parties agreement of November 2007 was, in terms of realpolitik, perceived overwhelmingly as a face-saving device for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and other ardent advocates of the India-U.S. strategic partnership, which would allow them to make an honourable exit from commitments to formalise the nuclear deal.

The perception was as follows: The government goes to the IAEA Secretariat, negotiates the safeguards text, and places the draft before the UPA-Left coordination committee for evolving its final findings. The final findings, given the larger political situation in the country and in Parliament, would have gone against the deal and this would have allowed the Prime Minister to state that even though he wanted the deal it was not possible because of his political commitment to the UPA-Left coordination committee.

Such an honourable exit, it was analysed within both the UPA and the Left, would help maintain the broad secular grouping that sustained the UPA government at the Centre. It was also considered, at that time, that the process of discussing with the IAEA Secretariat, getting back to the UPA-Left coordination committee and eliciting its clearance would be such a time-consuming affair that the U.S. would dump the deal.

It was surmised then that the U.S. would have to finalise and operationalise the deal before February 2008, when the processes for the election of the President and the members of Congress were to be initiated. Important constituents of the UPA, such as the RJD, the NCP and the DMK, and a number of senior leaders of the Congress and the Left parties shared this perception in November 2007. According to several senior UPA and Left leaders, even Congress president Sonia Gandhi, who is also the UPA chairperson, was party to this view.

Even so, there was a stream of opinion, especially among circles close to the Prime Minister, that once the IAEA Secretariat cleared the text of the safeguards agreement a special meeting of the IAEA Board of Governors could be convened at short notice paving the way for the finalisation of the text and the operationalisation of the deal.

The scenario perceived by advocates of this view did visualise a violation of the November 16 UPA-Left agreement. The Left leadership, however, did not consider this view as a serious option at that time. But the sequence of events between December 2007 and June 2008 seems to have proved them wrong.

The Prime Minister and his close associates consistently gave the impression that they were seeking to devise ways and means to operationalise the deal. The thinking within the Congress in the run-up to the December 2007 elections to the Gujarat Assembly and the May 2008 elections to the Karnataka Assembly was that the job of pushing the nuclear deal would become easy for the Prime Minister and his associates if the Congress achieved good results. But that was not to be.

In the run-up to the Karnataka elections, the understanding within the Congress was that becoming the single largest party even without a clear majority would be sufficient to impel the deal to its finalisation stage. The first move by the Congress after the disappointing Karnataka results was to postpone the UPA-Left coordination committee meeting scheduled for May 28. It was put off again to to June 18 and then to June 25.

Manmohan’s ultimatum


Manvender Vashist /PTI

CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat, CPI general secretary A.B. Bardhan, RSP general secretary T.J. Chandrachoodan (left), CPI national secretary D. Raja and others before the UPA-Left coordination committee meeting in New Delhi on June 25.

In the interregnum, Manmohan Singh made it clear to his colleagues both in the Congress and in the UPA that he had to fulfil his commitment to U.S. President George W. Bush on the nuclear deal. Otherwise, he reportedly told Sonia Gandhi on June 19, he would have no option but to step down as Prime Minister. He also apparently argued that India’s prestige in the international arena depended on fulfilling the commitment to the U.S. on the deal. Specifically, Manmohan Singh was scheduled to meet Bush at the G-8 Summit in Japan in the first week of July. The Prime Minister’s associates felt that he would even decide not to attend the summit if the Congress and the UPA did not fall in line with him.

Immediate reactions to Manmohan Singh’s warning from a number of political voices within the Congress and the UPA were that such brinkmanship was not welcome. Congress leaders such as Mani Shankar Aiyar and Salman Khurshid made bold to come up with theoretical objections to Manmohan Singh’s position.

Talking to an English-language daily, Mani Shankar Aiyar, the Minister for Panchayati Raj, said what was needed was a “new energy paradigm” that sought to develop quickly alternatives to nuclear energy. Khurshid, a former Minister of State for External Affairs, questioned his own government’s “now-or-never approach” on the nuclear deal. Indicating that the next government in New Delhi and a new U.S. administration could consider the deal in a new political context, Khurshid said: “I can’t understand why the [nuclear] deal cannot be renegotiated at a later stage, maybe one year down the line.”

Mani Shankar Aiyar even questioned the logic that nuclear energy was the answer to India’s growing energy requirements and dubbed it “uni-dimensional thinking”. Both the RJD and the DMK made it clear to the UPA chairperson that they did not think that the nuclear deal was more important than the government itself.

In spite of all this, Manmohan Singh’s warning had a deep and resounding impact. Sonia Gandhi apparently put all her weight behind the Prime Minister and soon other leaders such as M. Veerappa Moily and Digvijay Singh came up with statements that the Congress was united behind the Prime Minister. Sections of the Congress, led by Pranab Mukherjee, along with its UPA allies such as Sharad Pawar, followed by initiating an exercise aimed at convincing the Left parties about Manmohan Singh’s determination on the deal and the predicament in which it had put the UPA and its government.

Compromise formulas

Many compromise formulas, including one about getting the ‘Sense of the House’ after finalising the safeguards agreement text with the IAEA, were floated as part of this exercise. None of these found favour with the Left. Amidst all this, sections of the Congress and some international players reportedly sought to strike an understanding with the BJP in order to ensure the safe passage of the text of the safeguards agreement to the IAEA. The offer here, too, apparently, was to place a ‘Sense of the House’ resolution in Parliament, which the BJP would oppose without forcing or participating in a division of votes.

In a sense, the current confusion had its origins in the positions advocated by former National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra (who held the post during the Atal Bihari Vajpayee-led National Democratic Alliance regime) and BJP national president Rajnath Singh in the past. Mishra famously said that he would support the deal if India were allowed to retain the right to conduct nuclear tests, while Rajnath Singh said, in October 2007, that the BJP could support the deal if the party’s concerns were addressed.

The BJP leadership had time and again claimed that it had initiated discussions for a civilian nuclear deal with the U.S. much before the UPA and that proposed deal did not compromise on India’s security concerns. U.S. diplomats, including Ambassador David Mulford, had time and again held negotiations with the party, but this time around there were indications that there was greater pressure on the party.

Statements by those like former party president M. Venkaiah Naidu, which sought to nuance the opposition to the deal with a “we are not opposed to strategic relationship with the U.S.” position, also aggravated the confusion within the party’s rank and file and among observers. However, anti-nuclear deal hawks in the party, such as Arun Shourie and Yashwant Sinha, branded the perception regarding any confusion in the BJP as the creation of vested interests in the media. Talking to Frontline, Yashwant Sinha said only those without common sense could imagine that the BJP would save the Congress and the UPA government at a time when the party was moving from one victory after another against the Congress and other UPA constituents.

Another target of the Congress was the Mulayam Singh Yadav-led Samajwadi Party (S.P.). The S.P has developed common ground with the Congress in Uttar Pradesh in opposing the ruling Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) led by Mayawati. However, last year the S.P. forged an alliance of regional parties consisting of the Telugu Desam Party (TDP), the Indian National Lok Dal (INLD) and the Asom Gana Parishad (AGP). All these parties are opposed to the nuclear deal, leaving the S.P. leadership in a dilemma. On the one hand it is toying with the idea of aligning with the Congress, particularly to boost its prospects in Uttar Pradesh; on the other, it has apprehensions about leaving its erstwhile allies.

The principal objective of the UPA in initiating negotiations with the S.P. and some of the other parties was to ensure greater strength in Parliament, in the event of a trial of strength on the nuclear deal.

Political dimensions

The Left parties steered clear of all this confusion and stuck to their position that the nuclear deal was not tenable, politically or in technical and scientific terms. While rejecting the UPA government’s proposals on taking the India-specific safeguards agreement text to the IAEA Board, both Karat and Chandrachoodan stressed the political dimensions of the sequence of events.

Karat said the argument by UPA leaders that India’s international prestige would suffer if the nuclear deal was not upheld was not justified because the UPA had several opportunities to tell the world that it was running a coalition government and hence could not push through politically untenable deals. Chandrachoodan argued that the Left had been instrumental in keeping the BJP out of power for the past four years and it was now the UPA’s responsibility to keep the saffron party out for the next 10 months.

The days following the June 25 meeting witnessed much confusion in the UPA. While a decision, in principle, had been taken to go ahead with the deal braving the opposition from the Left parties, there was no clarity about the timing. This question of timing had become important because large sections of the Congress and other constituents of the UPA did not want Lok Sabha elections ahead of schedule. If Manmohan Singh’s delicacy about meeting President Bush at the G-8 Summit had to be overcome, the UPA would have to proceed to the IAEA Board in July itself, forcing a withdrawal of support by the Left parties and early elections.

The thinking among the UPA constituents was that if the IAEA Board could be approached in September, when the Board was supposed to meet in its natural course, the collapse of the government could be delayed until then, which in turn would push the elections to February 2009, an acceptable two months ahead of schedule.

Clearly, the endgame is on for the UPA government, with only the specifics on the timing to be decided. A decision on the timing could be taken in early July. Until then other issues like spiralling inflation and price rise could well be pushed down the priority line of Manmohan Singh and his associates in the UPA.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

Pioneer, 2 July, 2008
A strange obsession

Ajoy Bose

The Prime Minister is oblivious to the real problems staring India in the face, as is the Left. Both are locked in a battle to the finish over the nuclear deal which has little resonance among the masses struggling with inflation or living in fear of extremists

Nothing better illustrates the political bankruptcy that has seized the UPA Government and its sponsors than the current crisis over the India-US civil nuclear cooperation agreement. At a time when the country faces double digit inflation, resurgence of communal tensions in Jammu & Kashmir and a stepped-up onslaught from Maoists in a number of States, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat are engaged in an obsessive duel on an issue that has little bearing on the real challenges staring India in the face today. It underlines the huge disconnect between the Congress -- as well as the Left -- and contemporary realities that will impact the coming Lok Sabha election.

On the one hand, we have an appointed Prime Minister who seems to be completely oblivious to basic rules of the political game. The fact that his mentor, UPA chairperson and Congress president Sonia Gandhi, too, appears to have run out of ideas has not helped matters much. Between themselves, this duo has made the coalition Government into a laughing stock in the crucial penultimate stage before the general election.

It is still not clear why Mr Singh is ready to stake so much in an election year on a deal that echoes so little among the overwhelming majority of voters. One can understand the pressures put on the Prime Minister by the Americans, the corporate lobby and their minions in the media. But surely the veteran bureaucrat -- who with more than one-and-a-half-decade in politics is no longer a political novice -- should know that in a democracy success is determined by those who can capture the public imagination.

Unfortunately, Mr Singh appears to be convinced that his cussed bid to steamroller the nuclear deal through even if it risks plunging his ruling coalition into suicidal electoral battle at the worst possible time is the right way to go. Acolytes may well have convinced him that even in the event of a humiliating poll debacle for the UPA and the Congress, his own stature would remain intact and in fact grow larger. But Mr Singh would do well to remember that ultimately his prime ministerial record would be judged not by how much he pushed the nuclear deal but whether he was able to accomplish political success for his party and coalition.

At the same time, it would be wrong to entirely blame the Prime Minister for this unholy fuss about the nuclear deal when the country is being scorched by so many burning issues. Mr Prakash Karat is equally responsible, if not more, for bringing policymaking to a standstill because of the nuclear deal. Despite his Marxist rhetoric on behalf of the masses, Mr Karat's quixotic battle against the forces of 'American imperialism' masquerading as the nuclear deal has little resonance among the vast majority of the poor, oppressed people he claims his party represents.

Indeed, had not the consequences of the present crisis been so damaging to the country besieged by so many troubles, the antics of the Marxists would have been hilarious, considering that the entire controversy hinges on India's nuclear teeth and whether Uncle Sam will defang them or not. Till not so long ago, the Marxists were dead set against India acquiring any nuclear teeth at all and it is curious why all of a sudden they have developed such concern over whether a future US President, using the Hyde Act, can stop this country from testing a nuclear device or developing a nuclear arsenal. Marxist explanations about how they are opposed to the deal not on behalf of India's nuclear programme but to stop this country from entering into a strategic partnership with the US is specious because that can happen deal or no deal, depending on who sits on the throne of Delhi.

Much like Mr Singh, the CPI(M) general secretary appears to have a general distaste for mass politics and issues that actually agitate the public imagination. He shows no inclination to agitate on bread and butter issues involving the masses; nor has his party been able to improve its standing in any other terrain beyond its turf in West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura. Instead, Mr Karat's single-minded mission to stop the nuclear deal is threatening to hand the Left its worst ever performance in Lok Sabha elections in the past many decades.

There is also the disgusting spectacle of the tug-of-war between the Congress and the Left over the Samajwadi Party. All of a sudden, a grinning Amar Singh has been allowed access to Congress dinner parties in return for the Samajwadi Party's numbers in the Lok Sabha in the event of the Left withdrawing support to the Government if the Prime Minister went ahead with the nuclear deal. The sheepish justifications by the Congress, the Left's churlish rage and the sheer euphoria in the Samajwadi Party over its new relationship shaped by the nuclear deal underlines the ludicrous nature of the changing political equations.

All three are likely to be big losers in the coming months. The fact of the matter is that neither Mr Singh nor Mr Karat has been able to convince the people that the success or failure of the nuclear deal is a matter of national concern. Nobody believes the Prime Minister when he promises nuclear energy as a panacea to India's energy crisis; nor has the CPI(M) general secretary been able to convince anyone except the faithful that the deal will lead to the colonisation of this country by the Americans.

It is not surprising, therefore, that the overwhelming public perception of the present political impasse between the Congress and the Left is that it is a needless waste of energy by political leaders and parties who do not care for the people. There is little doubt that the people will reflect this resentment when they vote in the next national election. Unfortunately, till that electoral denouement happens -- and it could take many months considering the past record of condemned Governments limping along endlessly -- the nation will be in the grip of a political crisis that should have not been there in the first place.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by svinayak »

All of a sudden, a grinning Amar Singh has been allowed access to Congress dinner parties in return for the Samajwadi Party's numbers in the Lok Sabha in the event of the Left withdrawing support to the Government if the Prime Minister went ahead with the nuclear deal. The sheepish justifications by the Congress, the Left's churlish rage and the sheer euphoria in the Samajwadi Party over its new relationship shaped by the nuclear deal underlines the ludicrous nature of the changing political equations.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Katare »

NRao wrote:IF MMS goes to IAEA and NSG and gets signed deals, is he stating that he will not go to the US Congress if Indian parliament is against the signed deals with IAEA and NSG?
NRao,

The way our political/legislative system works is that govt never brings anything to parliament that it can't pass thru. Only govt can bring an act/bill to parliament (except no confidence motion). So bringing anything to parliament is just a formality they will debate and vote, ruling coalition will win the vote. If they don't have numbers it'll never be signed and will never go to Parliament. The only thing that comes out of taking anything to parliament is that everyone gets to put their views on record and all the official information is disclosed/obtained. If govt wants it can incorporate some of the suggestions by the opposition members in the bill/act.

Again whatever govt does, it always has parliament's majority behind it by default in our system.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Katare »

One of the muslim MP of samajwadi party has already declared that he'll defy SP whip and vote against the deal. Problem is there won't be any voting on the deal :mrgreen:

Amar singh also said he'll take the deal to the third front - UNPA.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Amber G. »

Sorry, if this is already posted
..No U.S. OK seen this year for India atomic pact
No U.S. OK seen this year for India atomic pact

By Paul Eckert, Asia CorrespondentTue Jul 1, 5:47 PM ET

The U.S. Congress will not have time to approve a landmark civilian nuclear agreement with India at the center of a bitter Indian political row, a key U.S. lawmaker on South Asian affairs said on Tuesday.

"The clock has run out on our side of the border, because the clock has run out on their side," said Gary Ackerman, chairman of the House of Representatives Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia.

"They're not going to be able to do it in time for us to act in this calendar year and certainly not during President Bush's administration," he told Reuters by telephone from Pakistan on a trip that will take him to India this week.

The pact, signed by President George W. Bush and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh at the White House in 2005, would give India access to U.S. nuclear fuel and technology the country had been denied after its 1974 nuclear bomb test.

The Communist Party of India (Marxist), one of four leftist parties supporting Singh's coalition government, have threatened to halt their crucial support for the ruling coalition in parliament if Singh moves ahead with a deal they say will make India a pawn of Washington.

Months of wrangling in India have held up a pact that still needs time-consuming clearances from the International Atomic Energy Agency and 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group and then would have to go to the U.S. Congress for final approval.

Ackerman's comments were the most explicit of a series of statements by lawmakers and officials that time was running out ahead of U.S. congressional and presidential elections in November and the inauguration of Bush's successor in January.

ONCE BITTEN, TWICE SHY?

On Monday, State Department spokesman Tom Casey told reporters the United States understood the political difficulties in India over the agreement.

"We have our own political calendar too, and our own legislative calendar, and it's very difficult, at this point, to assume that we could be able to get an agreement through (Congress) but certainly we'll make every effort," he said.

Some experts were less inclined to rule out movement than Ackerman, who said he would tell his Indian hosts he remained committed to helping India with its energy needs but that the effort faced anti-nuclear sentiment in Congress.

"We never thought that the Bush people would produce something like this, or that the Indians would agree to it ... and I never say never," said Stephen Cohen, an India expert at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

Some estimates say India's goal of increasing tenfold its output of nuclear power in coming decades will create between $60 billion and $100 billion in business for U.S., European and Japanese nuclear supplier companies.

India watchers in the United States say far more is at stake than engineering and fuel supply contracts or even the better bilateral relations the pact is supposed to cement.

"It's not just about relations with the U.S.; It's about India taking its place on the world stage," said Lisa Curtis, a South Asia expert at the Heritage Foundation in Washington.

Both Cohen and Curtis said a setback to the nuclear deal would not derail bilateral ties. But in addition to the time needed for a transition to a new U.S. administration, Bush's successor might pause before going to bat for India again.

"It was an enormous amount of work simply to get the deal done and get it through Congress, and then to have the Indians either reject it or go slow on it so that it doesn't get done this Congress is going to make the next undersecretary of state think several times before engaging in long, complex negotiations with New Delhi," said Cohen.
Last edited by Amber G. on 02 Jul 2008 22:34, edited 1 time in total.
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

I am listening to KS interview by Karan Thapar as we speak
KT: It is being said that IAEA might not accept a deal proposed by a 'minority govt'. What will happen if IAEA does not accept an agreement signed by a minority Govt ? Mr. Subramanyam how important is the nuclear deal keeping in mind Homi Bhabha's Three Stage Cycle.

KS: It is very important. For instance India has only enough uranium reserves to run 10,000 MW of nuclear energy. But 50,000 MW of uranium resources per year are needed to start Homi Bhabha's Three Stage Cycle. We simply do not have that level of uranium reserves required to generate 50,000 MW. Without Uranium resources for 50,000 MW we cannot even start the Three Stage Cycle.

KT: But there have been reports in Hindu that Govt is underreporting uranium reserves. There are many sites that have not yet been mined.

KS: No, those uranium reserves that are not mined are being kept for future use for generating the very same 10,000 MW that we are producing today.
experts .. plz seperate spin from fact.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

K,

Thx.
Again whatever govt does, it always has parliament's majority behind it by default in our system.
Ah. I should have guessed that - ram it through no matter what. MMS. Politically perfect.

OK. That is not where I was headed. With events happening the way they are, there is a chace that MMS will NOT have a majority, then what happens? (Recall of talk of minority Gov signing?) Does when the re-ellections are held matter? (I suspect they do.) (In short is MMS asking for help to keep him afloat till IAEA and NSG sign off?)

On KS-speak. Strange people. Homi Bhabha was the one who identified a decent solution, decades ago, and nothing gets done until it is too late!! JMT.
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

i stopped listening to him the moment he mentioned 'climate change' to endorse his stand.

after he answered three questions by KT he bought up this gore issue.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

I think the US is worthless democracy - with just two major political parties to talk about. They should emmulate Indian model of a 100 parties.

Desperate Delhi wheels and deals

A possible marriage of convenience with an old foe, the Samajwadi Party (SP) that the Congress party, which heads the UPA, is hoping to seal appears to have emboldened Congress to defy the left and press ahead with the nuclear deal.
Bhabha is so lucky.
But there are signs the Congress party is now ready to take the risk of defying the left. On Saturday, Congress president and chairperson of the UPA, Sonia Gandhi, called on her party to prepare for elections. Earlier, she came out in support of the nuclear deal, endorsing Manmohan's position.

Many in the Congress party as well as the other UPA constituents, while supportive of the nuclear deal, are uneasy about facing the electorate soon.

Support from the SP, which has 39 seats, and a few smaller parties could offset the loss of left backing and help the UPA avoid immediate elections. There are strong indications that the SP and the UPA will get together. The UPA government has withdrawn a case against SP leader Mulayam Singh. There is a new cordiality between the Congress and leaders of the SP.

The SP and the Congress have been bitter enemies. In 1999, when the Congress was on the verge of forming a coalition government, the SP pulled the rug from under Sonia Gandhi's feet. Personal and political rivalry has marked the relationship until recently - political survival has transformed them from foes to bedfellows.

Neither the Congress nor the SP is ready to fight elections at the moment. They need each other to fight their common foe, the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) in the crucial state of Uttar Pradesh.

If the SP backs the UPA, then the government will go to the IAEA. The SP is expected to announce its position on July 3.
Done deal. No elections. 123 is signed.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by John Snow »

Are Baba, Bhaba is long gone,
123 was inditement of MMS and indictment of DAE and BARC incompetency.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

I know, I know, I am lucky to spell his name right. However, his "dream" lives on - when Karan-ji says so, we the people, listen.

Perhaps now we can erect a statue for our fearless leader at all safeguarded reactor sites?

BTW, CIA Factbook 2008 states:

Indian elec production (2005) at: 661.6 billion kWh and,
Indian elec consumption (2005) at: 488.5 billion kWh

Is the diff "loss" in transmission, theft, etc? A 26% loss. (I was under the impression it was greater, so if this is true, this is a very pleasant surprise.)

It goes on to state dist of production as follows:

Fossil fuel - 81.7%
Hydro - 14.5%, and of course
Nuclear - 3.4% (not 3)

Am I right in coming to the conclusion that India could recover a lot more if they upped their transmission, etc, than 123?

Or perhaps the investment India is expecting out of 123 should first go to better the old equipment, etc - you know - something called infrastructure. Or else we will end up what the airlines are facing - plenty of air crafts and passengers, but very little of ramps, roads, toilets, etc - you know -infrastructure.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

NRao, Transmission loss is euphemism for theft. And its mostly by sarkari industrialists- ie they support the sarkar in power and get fringe benefits like this. Atleast that was the Modus Operandi in the 80s.
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

It is the first time he has bought out this 50,000 MW theory. But he has not mentioned how many years this 50,000 MW needs to be kept chugging on Uranium to implement Three Stage.

Every day KS creaks out a new theory apparently.

Rest of KT's interview was spent talking to TP Srinivasan who is one day seen in Trivandrum and the next day is in NY.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

I get the feeling that thanks to the slow rate of economic growth and the rupee depreciation current and former Indian bureaucrats and elite are dependent on foreign rajanugraha and are flitting in and out of power circles. they are sincere in their belief that they are advancing Indian interests but it contradicts the golden rule- he who has the gold rules.
Cant be sure whose interests are being pursued. Fair enough there are common interests but in such matters its doubtful.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Katare »

Guys,

Its simple we don't have enough uranium, if stars align in our favors and we don't leave any stone unturned and scrap every ditch and use all kind of exotic mining technologies we may get through the narrowest crack in a few decades if our scientists, PSUs, finance minstry, bureaucrats and politicians live up to the expectations.

Something like this is what we have been doing for last 50 years -result 4K MW nuclear power working at 50% capacity.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

Ramana,

Thx. However that really means that 123 is actually subsidising the GoI!!!!! Well, what else is new?

On a more pleasant note:

Energy and Environment - A Viewpoint from India

R. B. Grover, DAE, June 06-7, 2008, Tsuruga, Japan

Please check page 21. I am curious about "No Additional Import beyond Kudankulam".

If someone can simplify this doc it would be much appreciated.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

One of the reasons for the past low pf was the reactors being run for other reasons. Not just gleaning fuel.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

Guys,

Its simple we don't have enough uranium, if stars align in our favors and we don't leave any stone unturned and scrap every ditch and use all kind of exotic mining technologies we may get through the narrowest crack in a few decades if our scientists, PSUs, finance minstry, bureaucrats and politicians live up to the expectations.

Something like this is what we have been doing for last 50 years -result 4K MW nuclear power working at 50% capacity.
Perhaps India is waiting for a US Congressman to tack a bill stating that India has to reduce her losses by 20% (assuming 6% is normal loss) before she can import Uranium.

Just as a BTW: a loss of 26% on imported Uranium costing $100 BILLION works to $26 Billion!!! Paid by the people of India.

There is no two ways about importing Uranium. That is not the issue.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by putnanja »

July 9: PM, Bush to fast-forward
New Delhi, July 2: The UPA’s “political” schedule for going ahead with the Indo-US nuclear deal — on pause ever since New Delhi returned from Vienna with a draft safeguards agreement over two months ago — may still be dogged by uncertainties of alliance politics but plans have been firmed up for Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and US President George W Bush to hold a separate bilateral meeting on July 9.

At this meeting, which will be held before the breakfast interaction between the G8 and the five Outreach countries, both sides will look towards “telescoping” the timeframe for the IAEA and NSG processes.

Besides conveying India’s intent to proceed with the IAEA safeguards agreement, Singh and Bush will discuss the broad roadmap and provide the all-important “political thrust” to conclude the remaining steps before the new administration takes charge in Washington.

While there are several uncertainties to fixing a specific timeline, sources said, the immediate objective is to obtain an exemption from the Nuclear Suppliers Group by early September so that the matter can be listed with the US Congress soon after.


In this context, both sides are working to ensure that the IAEA and NSG process are combined to save time. Key to this effort is that India confirms the safeguards agreement to IAEA Secretariat before July 15. Once the agreement is submitted, sources said, it will not only be passed on to the IAEA Board of Governors but also put up on the IAEA’s intranet system which is accessible to all IAEA members.

In effect, the India-specific safeguards agreement will be available to all 45 countries of the NSG as they are also IAEA members. Within a week, the US could circulate an agenda calling for a special NSG meeting sometime in early September. Along with it, the draft of a “clean” exemption containing no reference to nuclear testing could also be circulated.

As a result, the 45 days that these NSG countries have often indicated as a minimum requirement can start within days of India confirming the safeguards agreement to IAEA. The key issue for NSG members has been that many of them have stringent domestic laws on non-proliferation and any such exemption would have to be debated internally.

With the IAEA agreement and the draft of the NSG exemption in hand, these countries can start their internal processes. While this is the tricky bit for the nuclear deal, India and US will look to use all their diplomatic levers to obtain the NSG clearance in terms that are acceptable to both countries.

As for the IAEA process, officials do not foresee a major obstacle given the technical nature of the agreement. If matters move smoothly, IAEA Director General Mohammed ElBaradei can convene a special meeting of the IAEA Board within three weeks of India confirming the agreement.

The plausible date could then be in August first week. In case some countries press for more time, the meeting can be held in September just before the NSG meets. In either case, it would have to be a special board meeting as the next IAEA Board is, otherwise, scheduled to meet on September 22.

For all the difficulties involved in getting 45 NSG members on the same page by early September, India and US will have to combine efforts to ensure this target is achieved as there are not many reliable fallback options.

Listing the 123 agreement in the Congress schedule before it ends the September session is vital to avoid further complications on Capitol Hill. Already, sources said, the Congress is upset at being taken for granted by the Bush Administration on key issues. This will allow the relevant committees to conclude their hearings and bring it for an “up and down” vote in November-December.

With Bush’s tenure drawing to a close next January, the Democrat-led Congress may feel no compulsion to oblige the Bush Administration in the lameduck session except for the fact that the deal does enjoy bipartisan support. More importantly, a future Democrat Administration may be compelled to add fresh conditions to the nuclear deal like signing the CTBT that may kill the deal and turn it into a sour point in Indo-US relations.

In fact, the assessment is that Democrats would be more comfortable with Bush sealing the deal and allowing them to start afresh on a clean slate with India. But first, this best-case scenario has to begin with a fresh political impetus from to the top leadership of both countries and that is why the Manmohan-Bush meeting on June 9 is critical for the last lap of the nuclear deal.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

Meantime from Deccan Chronicle, 3 july 2008
Ignore the Left, go ahead with N-deal
By Nitish Sengupta

It is a pity that the draft agreement between the United States and India on the use of nuclear power cannot be given effect on account of the dogged, almost illogical, and unreasonable resistance by the Left parties. It is well known that India has consistently, over the years, refused to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and its successor, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, on grounds of conscience, as this would have prevented the country from conducting nuclear weapons tests. This led to a serious problem. Our nuclear power programme suffered tremendously on account of the steady refusal of any of the uranium-producing nations to sell enriched uranium to this country. India has almost been a pariah for such countries since our Pokhran-II tests in May 1998. And yet we must expand our nuclear power capacity so that we get rid of the limitations put by our inadequate coal supply, the quality of our coal, the uncertainty of our hydroelectric power and the spiralling cost of crude oil, all of which hamper our thermal power development programme. In order to move from our dependence on thermal or hydroelectric power, we must have a backup of nuclear power and for that a steady flow of enriched uranium is an absolute must.

The proposed Indo-US civilian nuclear cooperation agreement is not just an agreement with the US, but in a way with all uranium-surplus countries of the world, including Russia and Australia. Second, under this, we are not required to compromise our position as a declared nuclear power. By signing this agreement, India would for all practical purposes be accorded the status of a nuclear power without being required to accede to the CTBT, over which we continue to have reservations. This is a major gain, and people by and large understand this. The reason why the Left parties are opposed to it is because of US involvement. The Left does not want India to sign any agreement with the US by which the two powers could work together in the vast area of nuclear power development. The main objection of many non-Left parties is also said to be the fact that this agreement will compromise India’s ability to explode nuclear bombs and, to that extent, will sacrifice India’s sovereignty. The draft agreement itself does not prohibit India from exploding a nuclear device in the future, if need be. But there is also the American legislation called the Hyde Act, under which the US government cannot extend any support to a government which has conducted nuclear tests or explosions. Incidentally, the draft of the US legislation does not deal with these matters, but the fear is that the US government, being subject to the Hyde Act, will have a problem in allowing India to take such steps.

A rational examination does not seem to suggest that it is so. The Hyde Act is American domestic legislation, and India is in no way bound by it. The question really is what will happen if and when India explodes a nuclear device as an experiment. Under the Hyde Act, the US government will be required to stop all economic aid to India. But, as of now, we do not accept any such economic aid from the US. So the so-called "punishment" that the US can inflict is largely theoretical. We all know how the US and several other countries stopped all aid to India after Pokhran-II in 1998. But this had only marginal effect, and India survived the crisis magnificently.

It is unfortunate that the CPI(M) and the other Leftist parties do not appreciate all this. Apart from China (and Pakistan), no other country has voiced any objections to the proposed Indo-US nuclear agreement. It is even more unfortunate that CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat has singled out Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for a vicious personal attack, calling him a "stooge" of US President George W. Bush, thereby crossing all limits in decorum and decency in personal behaviour. He also needs to do something to remove the perception in the public mind today that the CPI(M) is actually acting as a stooge of the Chinese Communist Party on this issue. Prakash Karat & Co have at one stroke brought back the old charge that the CPI(M) is pro-Chinese, a charge that Jyoti Basu and Harkishen Singh Surjeet took four decades to remove.

There is also the absurd view put forward by the CPI(M) and its supporters that India should not go ahead with the nuclear deal with the United States as it would anger the Muslim community in this country. This only serves to illustrate how far the party under Prakash Karat has strayed from true Marxism.

The Indo-US nuclear agreement deserves the support of all those in India whose only concern is the national interest. It may perhaps be a good idea to have an unequivocal declaration by the government that India will continue to have the full and unfettered right to conduct nuclear tests in the future. The government should go right ahead and complete this deal, ignore the Left parties and appeal to the people. The people of India will undoubtedly support it.

Dr Nitish Sengupta, an academic and an author, is a former Member of Parliament and a former secretary to the government of India
KS also says that Hyde is an internal act and does not limit India due to the Vienna convention on treaties. But those who passed it also know such subtleties.

I think I will wait to see the language of the 123 to see if it has similar clauses as the one with PRC. If it doesnt that means the intention is to apply Hyde Act as a Damocles sword and some other means have to be taken to move the throne and mitigate the threat.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Rahul M »

KS also says that Hyde is an internal act and does not limit India due to the Vienna convention on treaties. But those who passed it also know such subtleties.
any source on net available ?

TIA.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by putnanja »

What the NSA told Amar Singh
New Delhi, July 2: The meeting between National Security Advisor M K Narayanan and Samajwadi Party leader Amar Singh provided the Government another opportunity to state its oft-repeated arguments on the nuclear deal. While Amar Singh had gone into the meeting in the hope of getting enlightened by fresh facts, he was presented by arguments that have been made umpteen number of times.

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According to a statement from the PMO, here’s what Narayanan told Amar Singh:

On fears that the agreement would dilute India’s independent decision-making on its foreign policy: The civil nuclear cooperation agreement did not and would not affect the autonomy of decision-making in regard to foreign affairs in any manner. India had always followed an independent foreign policy. Under no circumstances, would this position undergo a change, the least of all in the context of the civil nuclear cooperation agreement. India has always regarded its strategic autonomy in these matters as sacrosanct.

On the agreement’s bearing on India’s relations with Iran: It is time-honoured and civilisational in nature and no outside influence or pressure could force India to deviate from this path. The Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline epitomises the nature and importance of this relationship. India is not under any pressure, nor can it be pressurised to follow a course of action that is not dictated by our enlightened self-interest.

On fears that India’s military programme might be jeopardised: The deal would not in any way impinge on our strategic programme. The 123 agreement contains a specific mention that the agreement would not affect un-safeguarded nuclear activities, that is, activities involving our strategic programme which are not under safeguards.

Which is supreme — 123 agreement or Hyde Act: The 123 agreement clearly overrides the Hyde Act and this position would be clear to anyone who goes through the provisions.

On whether India’s right to carry out a nuclear test would be undermined: There is nothing in the agreement which places an embargo on India’s right to carry out a nuclear test if it thinks this is necessary in India’s supreme national interest.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by John Snow »

Ghar ka Anu
Nahi kaam ka
Na bum phoda takhat ka
Na bilee bana ghar ka
Chle nikle videsh
Dete huye sandesh
Mamoo ka hai vardaan
Ke Bijlee hogi
Ghar ghar ki kahani
Baat tho itni aasani
Magar smaje nahi
Is may hai kitni
Desh ki balidaan
Yeh tho hai asli kahani!

Spinster Uvacha
Last edited by John Snow on 03 Jul 2008 03:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

Ravi Here is the link

SP Meeting
SP Meeting


July 2, 2008
New Delhi


The National Security Adviser, Mr. M.K. Narayanan, had a meeting with leaders of the Samajwadi Party, Shri Ram Gopal Yadav and Shri Amar Singh,earlier to-day, during which the latter had sought certain clarifications with regard to the Civil Nuclear Cooperation Agreement between India and the United States.


Among the main issues raised by Shri Amar Singh were:


(i) Whether by entering into this deal, the sovereignty of decision-making in regard to India’s foreign policy would be compromised. It was clarified to Shri Amar Singh that the Civil Nuclear Cooperation Agreement did not and would not affect the autonomy of decision-making in regard to foreign affairs in any manner. India had always followed an independent foreign policy. Under no circumstances, would this position undergo a change, the least of all in the context of the Civil Nuclear Cooperation Agreement. India has always regarded its strategic autonomy in these matters as sacrosanct. Related to this was the question raised by Shri Amar Singh whether the nuclear deal would impinge on our relations with Iran. It was clarified that our relations with Iran were time-honoured and civilisational in nature and no outside influence or pressure could force India to deviate from this path. India and Iran have recently taken several initiatives, including one relating to the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline. The pipeline epitomizes the nature and importance of the relationship, something that was strongly re-inforced during the visit of President Ahmadinejad to Delhi in April. There have been other meetings between our Ministers and officials and their Iranian counterparts. The National Security Adviser has just returned after a very productive meeting with Iranian leadership, and also had a meeting with President Ahmedinejad, at which apart from economic issues like the IPI pipeline, certain other and related matters were discussed. India is not under any pressure, nor can it be pressurized to follow a course of action that is not dictated by our enlightened self-interest.


(ii) Another important issue that was raised by the SP leaders was whether the nuclear deal would undermine our nuclear sovereignty, specially with regard to our strategic nuclear programme. It was clarified, and the Prime Minister has reiterated this on many previous occasions, that the deal would not in any way impinge on our strategic programme. This is an agreement for Civil Nuclear Cooperation. The purpose of the Agreement is to enable full civil nuclear energy cooperation between Parties and concerns nuclear reactors and all aspects of the associated nuclear fuel cycle. It caters for the development of a strategic reservoir of nuclear fuel to guard against disruption of supplies over the lifetime of India’s reactors, and for advanced R&D in Nuclear Sciences. The 123 Agreement with the United States contains a specific mention that the Agreement would not affect un-safeguarded nuclear activities, i.e. activities involving our strategic programme which are not under safeguards. It also underscores that the Agreement would be implemented in a manner that does not hinder or otherwise interfere with any activities involving the use of nuclear material, information or technology and military nuclear facilities produced, acquired or developed by them independent of the Agreement for their own purposes.


(iii) A question was also raised about the Hyde Act passed by the US Congress and its impact on the 123 Agreement arrived at between India and the United States. A careful reading of the provisions of the 123 Agreement would make it clear that substantive rights and obligations under the Agreement are not affected by the national laws of the parties. It is the 123 Agreement and its provisions that indicate the obligations of both sides. The 123 Agreement clearly over-rides the Hyde Act and this position would be clear to anyone who goes through the provisions.


(iv) Other clarifications were sought on the right to re-process and the right to test and the provisions under which the United States would determine its cooperation with India. Great care was taken while finalizing the 123 Agreement to arrive at provisions which are satisfactory from India’s point of view. The Agreement, hence, specifically grants consent to re-process or otherwise alter in form or content nuclear material transferred pursuant to the Agreement. India has agreed to establish a new national re-processing facility dedicated for re-processing nuclear material under IAEA Safeguards. There is nothing in the Agreement which places an embargo on India’s right to carry out a nuclear test if it thinks this is necessary in India’s supreme national interest. To meet the contingency (raised by the Hyde Act) that the United States might terminate its cooperation with India if it carried out a nuclear test, a very elaborate consultation process has been included in the 123 Agreement. The consultations would go into the relevant circumstances; take into account the specific requirements leading to a test; whether there had been a change in the security environment which required this; and/or whether this was a response to similar actions by other States which could impact on India’s national security. Furthermore, it is stated in the Agreement that the two parties recognized that exercising the right of return would have profound implications for their relations and that both parties should take into account the potential negative consequences of such termination of on-going contracts and projects.


(v) A reference was again made to the Agreement between India and the International Atomic Energy Agency for the application of Safeguards to Civilian Nuclear facilities. The salient features of the Draft Agreement (which are yet to be finalized), reflect the key understandings relating to fuel supply assurances, strategic fuel reserves and corrective measures. Provisions have been included that make it clear that India is offering its civilian nuclear facilities voluntarily for safeguards and keeping in view these assurances. Most importantly, the Agreement provides for the filing of a declaration, based on its sovereign decision, and only when India determines that all conditions conducive to the objectives of the Civil Nuclear Cooperation Agreement and concomitant arrangements have been fulfilled. This ensures that India would retain the right till the very end before putting any of its reactors under safeguards.


(vi) A major principle underlined in the Agreement with the IAEA is that the IAEA shall implement safeguards in a manner that do not hinder or otherwise interfere with any activity involving the use by India of nuclear material or technology developed by India independent of this Agreement for its own purposes.
I have waited for so many threads for the PMO to assert the supreme national interests clause for the right to test. Now lets hear it in Lok Sabha.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by pradeepe »

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/02ndeal9.htm
Apparently heeding to Samajwadi Party's plea for a public statement to assuage its concerns on the Indo-US nuclear deal, the Prime Minister's Office on Wednesday night said there was nothing in the agreement that compromised the country's strategic programme or its right to conduct a nuclear test.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by amit »

ramana wrote:Meantime from Deccan Chronicle, 3 july 2008

Ignore the Left, go ahead with N-deal
By Nitish Sengupta
From this Nitish Sengupta article which Ramana ji posted:
It is unfortunate that the CPI(M) and the other Leftist parties do not appreciate all this. Apart from China (and Pakistan), no other country has voiced any objections to the proposed Indo-US nuclear agreement. It is even more unfortunate that CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat has singled out Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for a vicious personal attack, calling him a "stooge" of US President George W. Bush, thereby crossing all limits in decorum and decency in personal behaviour. He also needs to do something to remove the perception in the public mind today that the CPI(M) is actually acting as a stooge of the Chinese Communist Party on this issue. Prakash Karat & Co have at one stroke brought back the old charge that the CPI(M) is pro-Chinese, a charge that Jyoti Basu and Harkishen Singh Surjeet took four decades to remove.
There is also the absurd view put forward by the CPI(M) and its supporters that India should not go ahead with the nuclear deal with the United States as it would anger the Muslim community in this country. This only serves to illustrate how far the party under Prakash Karat has strayed from true Marxism.
As an Indian who grew up in West Bengal during Jyoti Basu's rule, I grew to intensly dislike his style of political functioning which led to a massive flight of industry from the state, which at one point of time, was one of the most industrialised in India.

I've also seen so many friends and relatives migrating out of the State in search of jobs, both within India and outside - simply because there is not enough decent jobs available. And not all go for great well paying jobs, sometimes is just very ordinary ones which should have been available in West Bengal.

So much so that there are entire localities which have been reduced to housing old people, who's children reside outside the state, and folks who couldn't make it in life. It's happened to the area I grew up in - I feel so depressed when I go back there.

However, I'd give credit where it's due. Jyoti Babu never once gave the impression that he was batting for anyone else other than India of his vision. Maybe a flawed vision but one that was 100 per cent Indian.

Prakash Karat's anticts, not only in this Nuclear deal but things like joining a Shia rally - to give it political legitimacy - when George Bush came to India, have in one short span, as Nitish babu has pointed out, destroyed all the "good work" done by Jyoti Basu and Surjeet.

I still think there are many pragmatic elements with the CPI(M), Buddhadev Bhattacharya being one of them. And if this goes to elections and if the Left does badly - as is being widely anitcipated - there will be plenty of churning within the CPI(M), IMO. And if the pragmatists (some chai walas tell me Sitaram Yeuchury is actually with this group) do manage to get Karat and his wife Brinda sidelined, maybe that would be a good thing for India.

JMT and sorry for the long ramble.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Rahul M »

amit, AFAIK basu and co did support the PRC during '62.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:I have waited for so many threads for the PMO to assert the supreme national interests clause for the right to test. Now lets hear it in Lok Sabha.
ramana: That phrase can mean many things. In my view, there is a big difference in the approach, when this PMO says, we may test, if the "supreme national interest" calls for it as opposed to LKA saying, we will not shy away from a test, if needed.

Also, I will not bother to point the number of lies in the statement from Narayanan, folks who have read all the background agreements, know what they are.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ShauryaT »

Rahul M wrote:
KS also says that Hyde is an internal act and does not limit India due to the Vienna convention on treaties. But those who passed it also know such subtleties.
any source on net available ?

TIA.
That is a complete lie. No 123 agreement is designated as an international treaty. Hence the India 123 (2nd one) is not going to magically get that status. The 123 is governed by national laws. Even if it was covered under Vienna treaty, it does not automatically enjoy the same status as US law, as a recent US supremet court ruling has clearly indicated.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote:I think I will wait to see the language of the 123 to see if it has similar clauses as the one with PRC.
The difference between India and PRC 123 are clear as night and day. The India 123 is governed by national laws. The PRC 123 specifically excludes national laws as a reason for not performing the obligations under the agreement.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ShauryaT »

NRao wrote:Done deal. No elections. 123 is signed.
The numbers do not compute. How will they compensate for the loss of Left + BSP by adding SP?

Many other regional parties and independents may not be in a mood to support the government at this state due to rising prices.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ShauryaT »

Raju wrote:It is the first time he has bought out this 50,000 MW theory. But he has not mentioned how many years this 50,000 MW needs to be kept chugging on Uranium to implement Three Stage.

Every day KS creaks out a new theory apparently.
I still do not understand this 50,000 MW needed for third stage theory. Are the plans to build 4 FBR's dependent on foreign fuel?
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Kati »

amit wrote:
ramana wrote:Meantime from Deccan Chronicle, 3 july 2008

Ignore the Left, go ahead with N-deal
By Nitish Sengupta
From this Nitish Sengupta article which Ramana ji posted:
It is unfortunate that the CPI(M) and the other Leftist parties do not appreciate all this. Apart from China (and Pakistan), no other country has voiced any objections to the proposed Indo-US nuclear agreement. It is even more unfortunate that CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat has singled out Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for a vicious personal attack, calling him a "stooge" of US President George W. Bush, thereby crossing all limits in decorum and decency in personal behaviour. He also needs to do something to remove the perception in the public mind today that the CPI(M) is actually acting as a stooge of the Chinese Communist Party on this issue. Prakash Karat & Co have at one stroke brought back the old charge that the CPI(M) is pro-Chinese, a charge that Jyoti Basu and Harkishen Singh Surjeet took four decades to remove.
There is also the absurd view put forward by the CPI(M) and its supporters that India should not go ahead with the nuclear deal with the United States as it would anger the Muslim community in this country. This only serves to illustrate how far the party under Prakash Karat has strayed from true Marxism.
As an Indian who grew up in West Bengal during Jyoti Basu's rule, I grew to intensly dislike his style of political functioning which led to a massive flight of industry from the state, which at one point of time, was one of the most industrialised in India.

I've also seen so many friends and relatives migrating out of the State in search of jobs, both within India and outside - simply because there is not enough decent jobs available. And not all go for great well paying jobs, sometimes is just very ordinary ones which should have been available in West Bengal.

So much so that there are entire localities which have been reduced to housing old people, who's children reside outside the state, and folks who couldn't make it in life. It's happened to the area I grew up in - I feel so depressed when I go back there.

However, I'd give credit where it's due. Jyoti Babu never once gave the impression that he was batting for anyone else other than India of his vision. Maybe a flawed vision but one that was 100 per cent Indian.

Prakash Karat's anticts, not only in this Nuclear deal but things like joining a Shia rally - to give it political legitimacy - when George Bush came to India, have in one short span, as Nitish babu has pointed out, destroyed all the "good work" done by Jyoti Basu and Surjeet.

I still think there are many pragmatic elements with the CPI(M), Buddhadev Bhattacharya being one of them. And if this goes to elections and if the Left does badly - as is being widely anitcipated - there will be plenty of churning within the CPI(M), IMO. And if the pragmatists (some chai walas tell me Sitaram Yeuchury is actually with this group) do manage to get Karat and his wife Brinda sidelined, maybe that would be a good thing for India.

JMT and sorry for the long ramble.
Same here Amit.

1. Jyoti Basu did destroy the indstrial spinal chord of Bengal single handedly by his destructive attitude, which is now haunting Buddhadeb Bhattacharya and Nirupam Sen. There are a few genuine dedicated honest people within CPM, but they are cornered. The party is run by CITU-SFI-DYF thugs. CPM is tasting the bitter pill of what it professed for the last thirty years.

2. Just because Nitis Sengupta wrote the above article doesn't mean that I/we have to accept it as absolute truth. He was the Trinamool MP from Asansol (AFAIC), and was defeated last time. He was the chairman of Calcutta Port Trust and made his crores. Those who know the functioning of Calcutta Port Trust and how it's controlled by some abdul mafias (from Garden Reach to Buj Buj) would know this. Anyway, his saying that basu and Surjeet made the party non-pro-China is a total hog wash. It is skewing the history. Basu-Surjeet-Namboodripad-Ranadive-Promod dasgupta used to give lal selam at the drop of the cinese Mao-cap.

I would say that the present generation of CPM head honchos (except karat and Yechury) - mainly from bengal are less pro-chinese at the spiritual level, but they want to follow the chinese economic model to hold on to power. The recent Nandigram-Singur fiascos are the results of mixing oil to water. The die-hard senior level are still stuck to 1950s, where as young turks like Nirupam Sen, Surjakanta Misra are more pragmatic, and want to revive the industries. ... But it's a big mess now. party doesn't know what to do.

Seen this party very closely at various levels.
Last edited by Kati on 03 Jul 2008 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ldev »

ShauryaT wrote:
Raju wrote:It is the first time he has bought out this 50,000 MW theory. But he has not mentioned how many years this 50,000 MW needs to be kept chugging on Uranium to implement Three Stage.

Every day KS creaks out a new theory apparently.
I still do not understand this 50,000 MW needed for third stage theory. Are the plans to build 4 FBR's dependent on foreign fuel?
It is all about compounding. Oxide fuels double every 30 years in a FBR... metallic fuels double every 10 years. India is right now inbetween the two AFAIK i.e. metallic fuels have not yet been mastered. Also, the amount of reactor grade plutonium needed to provide the inital load for the 500MWe FBR. How much of that does India have that is unsafeguarded and how much will be needed for the initial load... rough numbers are available on the net, you can look them up. Not all of what is available can/will be allocated for FBR loading. Based on that, how many FBRs of 500MWe can be loaded.... maybe 2 right now, after other allocations are made. How many decades did it take for this stockpile to be built up..... therefore will spent fuel availability from the existing reactors be adequate to load up 2 more 500MWe reactors by 2020?

One more thing. The 3rd stage (AHWR) is not self sustaining in terms of fissile material for quite some time after startup. Therefore it will need fissile fuel support from the 1st and 2nd stage for some years after startup. That will slow down any FBR compounding that is being done on a parallel basis.
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