All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Same news , a few titbits 70% indegenous content, how accurate?
Looks like more rubbish reporting. He seems to have copied *news* from Chindits. AESA for Mk2 had already been stated by DRDO chief in an interview a while back.
About the Mk-2 flying in 2013... . Has the GE-414 contract even been signed as yet?
Would love to know about the current status of LCA and LSP 8. IMHO, its being a bit unfair of ADA to not share some info on the LCA development progress.
The radar was supposed to be Indian but the radar processing unit was Indo Israeli the last time I heard. Apparently Israel has some advantage in that department due to more experience than us. That could be replaced by Indian computers once we gain more expertise on the operation of AESA radar.
A question for my curious mind. We are importing a very expensive Advanced Jet Trainer Hawk from UK. What stops us from making our own Basic Jet Trainers, Intermediate Jet Trainers and Advanced Jet Trainers considering that existing Kaveri engine can be downrated for use in these aircrafts. Also I don't see much difficulty in making these trainers as we have already made LCA which requires much more advanced and sophisticated technology.
Raj,the basic problem is that we make tall claims about inventing or re-inventing the wheel when we do not have either the design capability or technical capability to do so ...on time.There have been many papers about how we squandered our capability when the HF-24 was developed under Dr.Kurt Tank's leadership.Had we progressively pursued its development with a more powerful engine,we could've had a desi fighter AND the MIG-21 in service.Remember that we in the 60s and 70s had the Gnat,MIG-21,SU-7 and HF-24 in service.There was enough space for both contemporary Russian MIGs (interceptors) and a desi multi-role fighter to complement each other.There would've been no need for acquiring the Jaguar.We lost that opportunity thanks to a myopic attitude all round.
The flawed approach by those in charge of our desi development has also resulted in us not being able to build even a basic turboprop trainer,the crashes of our earlier effort forcing us to buy in knee-jerk fashion the excellent Pilatus PC-7.Why we still think of reinventing the wheel when so many basic trainers are available worldwide,one can't fathom.Surely one wants our pilots to have the best foundation ,and identifying and acquiring through a JV the best of the best would've saved us many years and the lives of many rookie pilots.
Same story for the Hawk.I can't remember the debate aeons ago about the twin-seat Ajeet/Gnat trainer,why it was not considered developing that aircraft into an IJT/AJT,as it was in production.The La Fontaine committee looking into the reason for crashes in the IAF,before he became ACM in the '80s, suggested that we acquire at haste an AJT.We did,the HAWK....20 YEARS LATER!!! Poor ACM La Fontaine has also gone to that great hunting ground in the sky with the Hawk acquisition yet to be completed.
Our IJT has had a bad start with the crash two air shows earlier.The delay in finding a suitable engine,Russian-found,some delays,also delayed matters a bit.there has been little news about the IJT for some time.I am sure that the IAF is getting cheesed off yet again so will we have another firang IJT in the future if the IJT does not arrive on time?
Even a casual glance will see that it is the aero-engine problem right from basic trainers to IJTs,AJTs,fighters,helicopters,that has not been attended to and bedevilled programmes since the days of the HF-24.Like Tamilnadu,we are still waiting for "Kaveri" waters to flow! A revolution in attitude towards development of aero-engines,marine engines,engines for armoured vehicles,etc., by drawing up a master-plan for a new comprehensive engine R&D outfit to cater to the needs of the services is past time.One key factor is our backwardness in aero-engine mettallurgy,which we will have to beg,borrow or steal.If we remain focussed and relentless like the Chinese,we will succeed.Half-hearted R&D as has been conducted for decades will produce nothing worthwhile.
^^^ True. If you've been feeling suffocated, you're not the only one. I'll give DRDO 0 out of 5 for media management. One actually has to make an effort to be this bad.
RajS wrote:A question for my curious mind. We are importing a very expensive Advanced Jet Trainer Hawk from UK. What stops us from making our own Basic Jet Trainers, Intermediate Jet Trainers and Advanced Jet Trainers considering that existing Kaveri engine can be downrated for use in these aircrafts. Also I don't see much difficulty in making these trainers as we have already made LCA which requires much more advanced and sophisticated technology.
1. Our economy cannot support a hyuuuge production line of trainers which need to be rolling off all the time. Trainers are not like sabun...they need to find a buyer or the line will close.
So, we are not shy of giving some poor starving UK fellows some work and buying their hawk trainers.
Swadeshi, is so last century. In Global supply chain we trust!
What would it take for the LCA to be selected for the swiss air force, like the Gripen was? What are the areas in which we have to work to get it to Gripen like levels of performance?
Giving a big thrust to the indigenous fighter jet programme, Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided to induct six squadrons of Tejas light combat aircraft over the next 10 years, which will allow the IAF to pack more punch in its aerial strikes.
“IAF plans to induct six LCA squadrons by the end of the 13th Plan,” minister of state for defence M M Pallam Raju said in the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.
The development phase for LCA (light combat force) began in 1983 and the first technology demonstrator flew in 2001. Four years later, IAF placed the first order of 20 Tejas at a cost of Rs 2,700 crore. Subsequently, it placed order for another squadron.
The first two squadrons – 40 aircraft – of LCA, are first generation Mark-I version. The additional four squadrons would be Tejas Mark-II aircraft with a higher powered engine.
Looks like Tejas Mark-I will be around for a while thus relieving the pressure to import assembled Rafales.
I think it is better consider babooze statement with a pinch of salt. I honestly hope we get to hear more of how FoC happened.. that story is much more power packed than these statements from no reasoning and weights for time, money or responsibilities.
We want to hear actual reports and not projections. LCA if done correct and accepted to user requirements, nothing more than that is needed. Why stop at 6 squadrons? tranches and versions can follow for much more.
I just posted it to show that Mark-II will not replace Mark-I but complement in the IAF. Nobody really knows how many will be there in 2022, which will depend on HAL.
AFAIK the demand for LCA is as follows:
Mark-I: 40 IAF + 6 IN
Mark-II: 200 IAF + 40 IN
The additional orders for exports if added will easily help it cross the 300 mark.
The first two squadrons – 40 aircraft – of LCA, are first generation Mark-I version. The additional four squadrons would be Tejas Mark-II aircraft with a higher powered engine.
So, it is all together 6 squadrons - 2 Mk-1, and 4 - Mk2. total of 120 a/c ONLEE!
Given capabilities, history and empirical data, it would be not possible to exceed that number by 2020. If they do this, it itself is a great achievement. However, if private participation is made, then I would see some big time changes.
Last edited by SaiK on 05 Oct 2012 01:57, edited 1 time in total.
nakul wrote:AFAIK the demand for LCA is as follows:
Mark-I: 40 IAF + 6 IN
Mark-II: 200 IAF + 40 IN
The additional orders for exports if added will easily help it cross the 300 mark.
Crossing 300 would not be easy... 200 birds by 2020 would be a credible achievement... Unless we rope in another manufacturing/engineering giant into the fray even this 200 might not be easy to achieve... soon HAL is going to get busy with more Hawks, Mig-29, M2K upgrade as well as Rafale.
The nos in the aricle are only for the year 2022. We won't stop producing after that. Production lines will remain open until pent up demand is satisfied. The time taken to fulfil these orders will keep it open for a long time. The nos were just an illustration to prove that IAF is serious about this jet. I don't think there is any replacement for the LCA. Like it or not, they will induct it in huge quantities.
the bottom end of IAF is falling apart quickly - bisons, MF/FL antiques, older jags (the oldest date to around 1981 and are already 30+ yrs old!), Mig27 ..... in all around 250 headcount there.
other than JF17 and used F-16 there is no other cheap alternatives to Tejas,
Pakis claim that JF-17 can fire AIM-9. How were they able to integrate it with Chinese KLJ-7 radar?
We dont use Matra Magic with Mig29s or Archers on Mirages.
Relation to LCA is the talk about the diffuculty on using Russian Missiles on LCA due to Elta M-2032.
JF-17 can fire AIM-9 only if KHan gave the source codes to CHina, the did that in the 1960's with J-6 (mig-19 copy). Are they doing it again in the 21st Century. If they did Chinese would surely have kept a few Aim- 9M's and figured them inside out.
I guess Khan has deceided Aim-9M is expendable in the name of Anti-India strategy now that they have the Aim-9x.
koti, not at you at all. I was saying, there exists weird possibilities that chinese might do it by some means!.. and those means may be dangerous since it is a khaan item. All it takes is for OEM folks to flip a flag from remote.
koti wrote:Pakis claim that JF-17 can fire AIM-9. How were they able to integrate it with Chinese KLJ-7 radar?
Its a fire and forget short range missile. That is to say, it doesn't need to be integrated with the radar. IIRC, the PAF F-6s in 1971 were the first non-American aircraft to employ the Aim-9B in combat. In any event, even if they've managed to mate their older Lima variant onto the JF-17, its a less than remarkable achievement given that the missile is two generations behind the latest munitions available in the market.
yeah, from the rear of thundar the AIM9 would be useless as well.. by the time they make a turn, they are a toast. they need to integrate it with a cuing system to compete with LCA.
so, it has to be a dog fight that can engage a dumb aim. LCA with higher G turn rates, with low emission engine, has a much upper hand. I am sorry, LCA:Thundar pissko would be 1:10 at the min. You all can proudly say that to any paki. And just show the turn rate video shiv saab posted a while ago.
ask them to update that video before even mentioning that thundar in this thread. btw, the python-5 if jammed by lasers, would take on with optics and sure to kill thundar at mach 4., twice the speed even before AIMing happens.
Sorry dont agree , Aim-9M can be intergrated with JF-17 only if Khan has agreed, for the aircraft radar to tell IR missile which target to hunt and whether lock has been achived requires significant American help. USA gave that in the late 1960's to intergrate the Aim-9B to the J-6, question is are to play tango with CHina and let the CHinese have full knowledge of thier missile abilities, frequencies etc. Just because it hurts India is the question.
Intergretion of AIM-9M with JF-17 means USA is willing to go out of the way to hurt India.
^^^
SaiK....what are the turn rates of the LCA as compared to JF 17. I saw an Aero India 2011 flying display by LCA, that was pretty okay, but nothing spectacular.
Shiv later responded to a post of mine saying that that was with the FCS limited to 3Gs only.
So, I can imagine that when we do displays with 9G, it would be reaching all the wholesome goodness of the Rafale display posted some time back.
Is that true?
Also , which Shiv video are you talking about...aero India 2011?
Aditya_V wrote:Intergretion of AIM-9M with JF-17 means USA is willing to go out of the way to hurt India.
Hurting India the khaans will do so in the dreams as well.. this is not about that. It is all about making integration and sharing technology legal way. It is over Chippanda dead body, they would like to do this legally. Give them means to copy, hell yeah! they would gladly do it.
The khaans will be happy to sell AIM9s and F16s to even Chippanda club, but not at copying terms nor tech sharing terms.
If the khaans thinks they need to share tech with others, then the others must prove to khaan that if they don't do it for a better cost, they themselves do it better than khaans. Only on this term, the khaans will share.
if u recall Grumann was working with Cheen in 1st iteration of the JF17 . tiananmen ended that project. some ToT could have occurred in that phase. that was also the era when Cheen stole the los alamos stuff among other things....GB1 & bill clinton regime was in bed with them on many fronts.
mr bhu, those issues are addressed in mk-2. i know you referring to sustained turn rates.. basically the ge414-in version along with the lerx/levcon [naval] is what that would help there. i think the intention there is to maintain the speed and g-load (drags) with increased thrust.
for the sustained turn rate deficiency, IAF has asked for higher thrust.. in this case, the added benefit that is required is get the kill ahead first... and that is where IAF should make itself happy, in terms of good radar and missiles.
when the mk2 comes, whatever the 3 legged aspects will disappear with the enhanced sustained rate, where IAF pilots can enjoy the dog fights for both defensive and offensive purposes. Now, imagine how deadly LCA mk2 would be -
where is the thundaaar? The first two squadrons are for sustaining the program, and nothing to do with the final config. The mk1 is similar to Arjun mk1. All a/cs programs have similar enhancements.
SaiK wrote:The mk1 is similar to Arjun mk1. All a/cs programs have similar enhancements.
Sai, this comparison though vlid carries some ominous overtones, god forbid, the LCA has to go through the trails and tribulations of the Arjun MBT...Fortunately for the Desh, the Grippen has been rejected in the MMRCA competition...thus eliminating a potential threat to the LCA from the equation.
aaah! nothing other than super performance can overcome evil forces. /OT, but very valid point to all threads. we carry through that evil overhead of this 'firangs are the best'.. it would take real sometime to satisfy all requirements. i am not looking at that as negative, but all things positive. only by failure and repeated bashing, the products gets better. once better, there is nothing else to bash about it.
SaiK wrote:aaah! ... the products gets better. once better, there is nothing else to bash about it.
don't be too sure of this... Arjun saga has shown us how even after a product is proven to be better, levers can be pulled to pull it down... MOD Babooz decided to ban some companies which are suppliers for Arjun MBT primarily to derail it... has any one of the myraid cases of blacklisting/ban been taken to the logical end to prosecute anyone... zilch... the only impact is Desh not getting a quality weapon system...again this is OT... i stop here.
. Has the GE-414 contract even been signed as yet? 
