ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 20 Jun 2013 21:29

The PDV was always meant for 2000 km range targets or is it also capable of taking out 5000 km range ICBM's? The max altitude for PDV is nearly twice of PAD. (150 km vs 80 Km). What about AD-1 and AD-2?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 20 Jun 2013 22:19

Laser is useless against rotation or spinning objects. Pretty much everyone knows it now. It is useful for drones or planes.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 21 Jun 2013 09:12

But Lockheed Martin declared they have successfully destroyed eight incoming short range small calibre missiles and even has a video of it. Their system is equivalent to the Iron Dome.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 21 Jun 2013 15:05

For the EW radar, one could place them on a hydro dam in the N-NE axis, this forces the Chinese to strike the dam if they undertake pre-emptive moves, probably then New Delhi will reciprocate by breaching the China built dams in Tibet. We may need more then few EW radar sites anyways. For dam busting conventional strike may not suffice and its again tactical nuke torpedoes air launched by SFC squads. Dam targeting or destruction in Indian region is one of our redlines.

We may need EW sites in Tajik & Viet too

Then if the Chinese SSBNs do not intend to venture out of SCS, we could place few 'Aegis class' destroyers in SCS based out of Vietnam, Malaysia & Philippines coasts that enable them to potentially execute boost phase intercept of them SLBMs.

For DEW we have KALI in development however it cannot use optics like lasers do to deflect or focus the beam. Last we heard its overweight, the cooling requirements are humongous and beam power put out is inadequate for any meaningful target engagement. The ETA for a deployed DEW from news reports is 15 years.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jun 2013 14:42

Bheeshma wrote:The PDV was always meant for 2000 km range targets or is it also capable of taking out 5000 km range ICBM's?

VKS mentioned 2000 km at an altitude of 115-150 km , It has dual mode EO Seeker and ARH guidance.

The max altitude for PDV is nearly twice of PAD. (150 km vs 80 Km). What about AD-1 and AD-2?

AD-1/2 altitude is 200 km and can take out 5000 km range targets.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Jul 2013 19:25

BMD Trial to be held in september:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 868940.cms

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 06 Jul 2013 15:29

US missile defence test fails: Pentagon

Nice excuse though, it says missile threat from NK, maybe we should say the same even deploy cruisers in SCS against 'NK', saying it is China upsets China

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jul 2013 20:18

More interesting is this is the 3 consecutive failure of GBI which are operationally deployed this doesnt augur well for NMD program and what ever from NoKo it is trying to defend against.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jul 2013 21:02

you have to be careful to criticize before even analyzing what profile the test is conducted for.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jul 2013 21:56

If an operationally deployed ABM has failed 3 consecutive test to intercept a real target then its a serious reason to worry no matter what are the parameters of these test ,the confidence in the system to meet desired objective will be low for end user.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Jul 2013 21:01

After initial balk, India reconsidering buying Iron Dome.

India is reportedly reconsidering its decision earlier this year not to purchase Israel’s Iron Dome missile defense system.

The all-weather Israeli system, which has proven effective in intercepting rocket fire from Gaza, was first deployed in 2011. India has expressed interest in the system over the past two years because its advanced capabilities would enable it to detect and intercept the “Nasr,” a Pakistani tactical nuclear missile deployed along the Indian-Pakistani border, an Indian Army official told Defense News.

Earlier this year, India decided against purchasing the system. Air Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne, commander of India’s Air Force, said at the Aero India air show in Bangalore in February that the Iron Dome was not suitable for India’s air force.

But a military source told Defense News that India was reconsidering that earlier assessment because Israel was willing to share the technology behind the advanced rocket system.Iron Dome, whose development by Haifa-based Rafael Advanced Defense Systems was partly funded by the US, is considered among the most advanced missile defense systems in the world.

India is reportedly also interested in purchasing the longer-range David’s Sling system, which is manufactured jointly by Rafael and the Massachusetts-based defense contractor Raytheon.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2013 12:03

^^^ I haven't heard this from any official sources or Chaiwala in Desh, this seems to be someone's wishful thinking... IronDome has significant investment from uncle, David Sling has both investment and IP, fat chance they will sell this to India. along comes the carrot of the ever present ToT.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2013 08:11

Russia's Defenders: The S-300P ,S-350, and S-400 SAM Systems - Sean O’Connor

Table of Contents

Introduction 1 , System Development 3 , System Components 12 ,System Operation and Russian Use 28, Foreign Operators 35 ,System Exploitation 45 ,Western Designators 50 ,References 52

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2013 20:22

Pentagon Seeks Common Missile ‘Kill Vehicle’

The agency recently released a “sources sought” notification to industry for concepts for a so-called common kill vehicle, the portion of the missile that separates from the main body to “intercept” or knock an incoming projectile out of the sky.

“This research will support identification of applicable technology and concepts as well as qualified parties capable of developing and producing modular and scalable kill vehicles and component or subsystem technology applicable to the Ground Based Interceptor and current or future versions of the Standard Missile-3 missile,” the notice states.

The objective is to develop a shared technological foundation for the functions now performed by the two missile or interceptor systems, officials said.

“The overall goal is to consolidate future kill vehicle technology development efforts,” agency spokesman Rick Lehner said. “This could balance our BMD [ballistic missile defense] system and allow us to achieve results at a lower cost while improving performance. An objective would be for industry to come up with ideas. We’re looking for sources that have the capability to embark upon such a program.”

The agency may issue a formal request for proposal in the future, Lehner said.

Both the land-based GBIs and SM-3 missiles are engineered to destroy intercontinental ballistic missiles during the mid-course phase of flight – the period of trajectory when the projectile is above the earth’s atmosphere; thus the term “mid-course” phase, as opposed the initial “boost” phase or final “terminal” phase. The mid-course phase is the longest period of time during which an ICBM could be intercepted.

One analyst said the MDA’s market research makes sense.

“It is definitely worth exploring the feasibility of a common kill vehicle,” said Daniel Goure, vice president of the Lexington Institute, a Va.-based think tank. “The GBIs and SM-3 have similar technological components, meaning the kill vehicle for either would rely upon similar subsystems such as sensors and divert motors and attitude controls.”

Goure also said a common kill vehicle would need to be able to fit both missile-defense systems, given the difference in size between the much larger GBIs and their smaller SM-3 interceptor counterparts.

The Ground-Based Interceptors are engineered for land-based delivery and housed at Fort Greely, Alaska, and Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif. The SM-3 missiles, meanwhile, are launched from Navy ships using the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System.

However, the Pentagon is pursuing a program called Aegis Ashore to configure SM-3 interceptor missiles to fire from fixed, land-based locations in Romania and Poland. The idea is to improve the protective envelope for the U.S. and its allies by combining land-based interceptor sites with Aegis ships patrolling the oceans.

At the same time, the Pentagon earlier this year announced that 14 more Ground-Based Interceptors will be added to the arsenal in Fort Greely, Alaska. The $1 billion effort, to be completed by 2017, will bring the total number of GBIs at Fort Greely and Vandenberg Air Force Base from 30 to 44.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2013 19:09

Aegis BMD Stellar Beowulf/Vengeance (FTM-16) Documentary

SM 2 Block IV Salvo shot

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2013 19:34

AW&ST

kit · Post by **kit** » 25 Aug 2013 00:29

vasu raya wrote:BMD Phase 1 deployment would mean they have early warning radar coverage of 1500kms, the Balasore to Andamans distance is 1000-1500kms, so the Phase-1 LRTR may suffice for initial testing purposes and by deployment time they might have a longer ranged one.

The target missile will have to be in the A-2 class simulating different trajectories, unless they move to road mobile Agni-5 series for deterrence they wouldn't re-purpose the A-2s. Believe the A-2 being rail mobile they should try the launch from coastal rail line between Chennai and Kolkata instead of just Balasore.

Am curious..would an OTH radar work in the mountainous north eastern front ? Also if anti missile interception is planned at much higher altitudes wont it necessitate radars with much higher power and as a corollary have much longer ranges than the present swordfish ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Sep 2013 11:55

Arrow 3 video and brochure

Brochure http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/7/38867.pdf

Arrow 3 intercepts at altitude above 100 km and each Arrow 3 is half the weight of Arrow 2 and more faster

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Sep 2013 12:01

Israel could field Arrow 3 missile shield earlier than planned

Analysis of the Arrow 3 ballistic missile interceptor test performed early this year suggests that Israel will be able to shorten the time required to achieve operational status with the system, Israeli sources say.

During a flight conducted on 25 February by Israel's Missile Defense Organization and the US Missile Defense Agency, an Arrow 3 interceptor performed an exo-atmospheric trajectory through space, in accordance with the test plan.

The Arrow 3 interceptor is designed to provide an additional level of defence against ballistic missiles, by improving Israel's active defence architecture. The main contractor for the integration and development of the Arrow Weapon System is Israel Aerospace Industries' MLM division, in conjunction with Boeing.

Lighter than the interceptor used in Israel's operational Arrow 2 system, the new round will intercept incoming missiles outside the atmosphere. During its "end game", the super-manoeuverable kill vehicle will achieve a final impact, which will not be dependent on any sensors on the ground.

Analysis of the February test shows that the Arrow 3 interceptor has the agility and range to handle "complicated targets", the Israeli sources say.

According to its manufacturer, the new system features improved detection, discrimination and fire control capabilities, which will permit two and possibly three chances to kill each incoming weapon. The Arrow 3 architecture will have a very high probability of intercepting any suspected nuclear missile, and be able to also engage salvos of longer-range ballistic missiles equipped with countermeasures, it adds.

An air launch of two Rafael Silver Sparrow target missiles from an Israeli air force Boeing F-15 on 9 September was also connected to the accelerated development of the Arrow 3 system.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Sep 2013 09:07

Antey-2500 Long-Range Air Defense Missile System

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Dec 2013 09:30

DRDO Planning to Test-fire High-altitude 'Killer' Missile in January

After a long wait, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is contemplating to conduct the first test of its newly developed interceptor missile from a defence base off the Odisha coast in January.

The missile, dubbed as Prithvi Defence Vehicle (PDV), has the potential to destroy enemy missile with a strike range of around 2,500 km outside the earth’s atmosphere (at an altitude of over 150 km). Only a few countries in the world have such a capability.

The air defence exercise, a part of India’s Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme, would involve two missiles - the interceptor and enemy missile. Both the missiles have been developed for the first time and will be programmed at separate locations in Chandipur and Wheeler Island.

A reliable source said while the enemy missile would be fired from a Naval warship in the Bay of Bengal, the interceptor would be launched from the launching complex-IV at Wheeler Island. “The test is likely to be conducted in January,” it said.

Earlier, the DRDO had successfully test-fired exo-atmospheric (outside the atmosphere) and endo-atmospheric (within the atmosphere) interceptor ballistic missiles.

Of the seven interceptor missile tests, six have been successful. While two were in exo-atmosphere region, five took place in endo-atmosphere (below an altitude of 50 km).

“Programme Air Defence (PAD) interceptor missile has already demonstrated its killing capability at an altitude of 50 to 80 km. The Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile also has destroyed the target missile at an altitude of 15 to 30 km. Now we want to achieve the interception altitude of over 150 km,” a defence scientist said.

The two-stage PDV interceptor will be powered by solid propellants and fitted to an innovative system for controlling the vehicle at an altitude of more than 150 km. The PDV interceptor is expected to replace the PAD interceptor.

A scientist associated with the PDV project told ‘The Express’ that the focus was now to achieve the killing precision at the highest altitude with the help of an advanced software for which the DRDO would achieve a direct hit-to-kill on the target missile.

In a bid to protect major cities, the DRDO has developed two-layered BMD system and the R&D is on to develop Phase-II anti-ballistic missile defence system, capable of destroying enemy inter-continental ballistic missiles fired from 5,000 km away.

The two-layered BMD system is expected to be inducted in the armed forces by the end of next year.

However, prior to the PDV test, two user trials by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) have been planned.

While the 350-km range Prithvi-II ballistic missile is slated for test on December 3, Agni-III missile, with a range of 3,000-km, is scheduled for test on December 18.

Hit-to-kill

* The missile, dubbed as Prithvi Defence Vehicle (PDV), has the potential to destroy enemy missile with a strike range of around 2,500 km outside the earth’s atmosphere (at an altitude of over 150 km)

* Only a few countries in the world have such a capability

* The focus was now to achieve the killing precision at the highest altitude with the help of an advanced software for which the DRDO would achieve a direct hit-to-kill on the target missile

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2013 10:14

seems to me the PDV has no relation the prithvi missile and shares just part of the name.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Dec 2013 10:30

^^^

I think that article got the name switched. It should have been Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) [based on Prithvi w/ intercept altitude of 50 to 80 km] and Programme Defence Vehicle (PDV) [new missile w/ intercept altitude of over 150 km]. Or I could be wrong.

srin · Post by **srin** » 05 Dec 2013 10:35

The key thing here is "solid propellant" ... they are now ready to move away from the Prithvi test-bed and work on an operationalizable missile - stored in canisters.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2013 11:32

the lower tier PAD in the interim will however have to be non-container.
the AAD can likely be container launched.
these two will form initial ABM deployment in delhi and mumbai from 2014 iirc.
would be good psyops pics for night launches off the delhi ridge but alas there are no test ranges for targets to fall into safely if target missile is fired toward delhi from pokhran. feasible offshore in mumbai but again heavy shipping means no empty areas.

the newer bigger misses AD1(PDV) and AD2 might see deployment in 5 yrs if things go well. will come with new battle management system and radar also methinks.

one VLS battery should be permanently sited in chanyakyapuri where three huge roads run in parallel behind the american and french embassy...park it in the grassy lawns outside the TSP consulate and one behind the khan consulate. a statement imo.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jan 2014 21:56

Israel successfully tests Arrow space missile interceptor

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jan 2014 22:10

We need to knock one each retired irs and insat off the polar and geo orbits to send message on asat front.
modified agni1 and agni4 should be ok.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Jan 2014 00:50

debris in sat belts is an issue.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Jan 2014 01:00

Singha wrote:We need to knock one each retired its and insat off the polar and geo orbits to send message on asat front.
modified agni1 and agni4 should be ok.

Are you serious ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jan 2014 08:53

yes sir. retired sats use their last fuel to raise or lower their orbits into parking orbits where they are left to die. cheen took out a 600km alt sat in active orbit in true litterbug "I dare you" style but we can target couple of our dead sats already in some retirement orbit.

we got to make a start. sure it will be years away from deployment even if the new KV and guidance systems work but a message would be set loud and clear that just sitting invulnerably on a high machan will not permit anyone to have a free run at pounding us. take GPS sats. there are probably two orbital planes over indian landmass each with around 4 sats, so a small force of around even 15 A4-ASAT could pose a significant threat to such systems.

this is the same kind of force structure Cheen is working on - a range of IRBMs/small sat launchers modified to ASAT role and hardened for mobile use.

on yahoo answers:
If the satellite was still functioning (not damaged) prior to it's "retirement" the satellite is placed in whats called a "parking orbit". This orbit is just a small ways away from where it's useful life was spent. In the case of a satellite in geo-stationary orbit (22,500 miles up), the parking orbit is about 1000 miles further up. For satellites in lower orbits, the parking orbit is usually a couple of hundred miles further up. The need for these parking orbits stem from the need for other satellites to take the retiring satellites place.

Now, if a satellite is damaged (either from launch errors or debris collisions), it may be impossible to communicate with the satellite to direct it into a parking orbit. These objects are tracked, and when they come close to operational satellites, the working satellites are usually redirected in their orbital paths to avoid the rogue satellite.

PS> if you insist on being clean n green atleast sent the ASATs up and pipe down sensor data & video in unencrypted form so that all may see we scored a 10m CEP on the satellite. explode the warhead a 100 miles further up to make sure it will explode up there.

Dharmic veggie choices being voiced here, will just get the herbivore eaten asap - is survival an option or mandatory ?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 04 Jan 2014 09:11

^^^Why do you think Agni-4 went to 900KM height when Agni-5 only went to 600KM height. It was a message that we can take out stuff in LEO when needed.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 629274.ece

Agni-IV lifted off majestically at 9 a.m. from a specially designed truck, accelerated to a height of 900 km, sliced across a distance of 3,000 km and accurately reached the targeted area in the Bay of Bengal.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

After the lift-off, it cut a ballistic path across the sky reaching a height of 600 km, before rapidly descending.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 04 Jan 2014 10:37

Singha wrote:PS> if you insist on being clean n green atleast sent the ASATs up and pipe down sensor data & video in unencrypted form so that all may see we scored a 10m CEP on the satellite. explode the warhead a 100 miles further up to make sure it will explode up there.

Dharmic veggie choices being voiced here, will just get the herbivore eaten asap - is survival an option or mandatory ?

Just like SAMs and AAMs are tested using purpose built pilotless target aircraft, we could also have purpose built target satellites. They could be designed to create less debris.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 04 Jan 2014 22:46

Singha wrote:take GPS sats. there are probably two orbital planes over indian landmass each with around 4 sats, so a small force of around even 15 A4-ASAT could pose a significant threat to such systems.

GAGAN depends on the signals from these GPS sats, knowing that you don't usually beat around the bush about NOSS sats. if WAAS can augment the GPS signal, can it be jammed as well? specifically over TSP's theater of offensive action

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 Jan 2014 00:34

Singha wrote:We need to knock one each retired irs and insat off the polar and geo orbits to send message on asat front.
modified agni1 and agni4 should be ok.

Singha'ji why this fetish with ASAT testing? Why create unnecessary debris? ASAT testing is like this - you are driving your Maruti at say 80 kmph on your road and I hung out a brick from a branch on a tree adjoining the road in your path. The brick will shatter your windshield.

All one has to demo is the ability to raise an object the size and density of a brick at a given height and velocity, which is easily demonstrated already by the Agni III/V series.

What should be enhanced is satellite tracking - that is advanced all weather radars covering a wide swathe of space.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Jan 2014 00:47

Having capability is one thing and demonstrating that is another. Unless and until India doesn't demonstrate it's capability of ASAT weapon nobody will take us seriously regarding that so we must carry out at least one to bring us on par with our neighbour.

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 Jan 2014 09:05

SagarG, demonstrate to whom? Given that BRF as a whole is uber-elite in knowledge compared to aam-admi, the aam-admi will not comprehend the nitty-gritties and will put his faith in likes of APJ kalam or V. Saraswat.

So the test is only for "doubting Thomas'es" who will still "doubt" never satisfied. For the patriotic indics within that same subset, an ASAT demo is more a psycho exercise to address their complexes.

Coming back to technicalities:

For ASAT, one does not have to demonstrate by shooting a satellite! What Chinese did in crude terms was pull their own pants down to show that "they also have maal". Making them a laughing stock in the space world. It basically showed them up lacking in several departments (will detail it some other day).

One can prove that one has an effective maal just by showing a cute family fotu with cuddly kids.

When India demonstrates its AAD/PAD and different variants and announces Agni V reached 500 Km going all the way to 3200 KM a 1T physics package, it basically demonstrates India has acquired

a. Ability to identify, track and shoot down a "bullet with another bullet" or "satellites with another satellite"
b. Ability to destroy satellites all the way to Lagrange points ...

How will I shoot down a geo satellite? Basically I will put a 1 KG in a GTO orbit in contra-rotation. Heck, even simpler will be a satellite in GTO orbit over poles. To demo it, I will take the flight simulation software of PSLV and plug in different numbers and orbital trajectories and show that it will intersect with a target satellite at a given time and place (PSLV has demonstrated precise injection, so its flight simulation software must be really tested out). This can be a research paper of a Master's/PiChaddi as well.

So all in all - one does not have to do an ASAT test to demonstrate "capability", but at the same time have all the "dhoti-shivering" continue to do a good cop/bad cop routine.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Jan 2014 09:33

Geo Sat is a mistake in the list of ASAT. It can only be a thesis

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jan 2014 09:42

When AD-1 and AD-2 comes it would have capability to bring down LEO sats in 200 km altitude ... it has the energy to reach there.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jan 2014 10:37

Israel, US conduct successful joint test of Arrow 3

“We’re thinking mostly about the nuclear threat,” he said. The Arrow 3′s high-altitude capability makes it an ideal counter to nuclear missiles, since the altitude minimizes the threat of fallout from the missile’s destruction.

Hasson described Israel’s four-layered missile defense strategy: Iron Dome, which protects against smaller, short-range threats up to 70 kilometers; David’s Sling, covering mid-range threats from 70-200 kilometers; Arrow 2, for long-range attacks; and Arrow 3, for incoming missiles from up to 2,500 kilometers away.

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 Jan 2014 11:10

Acharya wrote:Geo Sat is a mistake in the list of ASAT. It can only be a thesis

Only a thesis!!

.

In encryption/one-way hash algorithms., once an algorithm is theoretically broken - it is broken. In theory, if Agni-III or Agni-V reaches Geo Sat/Lagrange points - it can reach all points in between.

Of course creating a debris field around Earth will condemn several future generations. Do not get surprised that in a generation or two, earthlings if they do not go al-baki will be prospecting moon and near-earth asteroids for a better standard of living.