Military Flight Safety

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Apr 2010 08:19

shiv wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:FINAL INVESTIGATION REPORT ON NAL'S SARAS
VERY VERY VERY disturbing article to say the least!!!!
The report is heart rending, but for an aviation jingo the report also marks a milestone. The Aviation authorities in India have, as far as I can tell, for the first time released such a report into the public domain. I am glad they did that. It serves to dispel a whole lot of misconceptions about how accidents are investigated (or the idea that they are not investigated at all)

shiv, there are two precedences to this. The most recent one is the accident report of VT-APG - YSR's chopper. Prior to that the Alliance Air Crash at Bihar - the report was put online when released. Air Marshal Rajkumar was head of that investigation committee and he got it released. Both have similar amount of detail and analysis.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 23 Apr 2010 08:39

Very heart rending

felt extremely sad reading the CVR transcript.
So the first attempt resulted in a dry ignition due to the proper switch not being turned to the right position

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Apr 2010 18:03

yes, the cvr excerpt summary was disturbing to read.

Howeverall, the language in some of the parts appears unorthodox. Reports usually dont use statements like "p2 was saying f...f... f.... - perhap seeing the last moments of his life flashing by" .. (or something ilkethat i remember reading in there). They are clinicially concise and devoid of all dramatic statements.

I guess it depends on the person in charge of the report.

EDIT: The bit I found dramatic is on page 18

At the last second of their life P2 calling “ F......…,F......” indicating he is seeing last
spell of the life.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 02 Jun 2010 18:44

Navy chopper crashes, Pilot injured

A Chetak helicopter belonging to the Navy on Wednesday crashed into a river near Anakapally town, about 50 kilometres from here, injuring the pilot and three others onboard.
According to initial reports, the pilot and three trainee pilots were injured, DIG Visakhapatnam range Swomya Mishra said.
The mishap occurred when the chopper touched a high tension wire while flying low near Sarada river bridge, the DIG said.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12979

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Jun 2010 01:18

^^ Some reports claim 1 pilot dead, 2 injured.. Not sure about the casualty, but here is the pic of the downed flight!

Check out more here

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Jun 2010 05:48

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 444890.ece

Petty Officer K. Kumar (30) died of critical injuries at the NTR Hospital. Pilot Hritesh (27), Lt. Deepika Mishra (27), and Lt. K. Tushar (26) are undergoing treatment, the sources said.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jun 2010 06:00

This is the second crash in one year when a helo has hit cables/wires. Illegal/unmarked cabling is a hallmark of India and I wonder if public outrage will have to force the fitting of suitable warning equipment on all helos. I admit that it would be better not to have that cabling in the first place - but I suspect the fitting of an obstacle warming receiver might be a better idea.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 03 Jun 2010 08:13

shiv wrote:This is the second crash in one year when a helo has hit cables/wires. Illegal/unmarked cabling is a hallmark of India and I wonder if public outrage will have to force the fitting of suitable warning equipment on all helos. I admit that it would be better not to have that cabling in the first place - but I suspect the fitting of an obstacle warming receiver might be a better idea.

Unfortunately there is not much of a public outrage. Most people still blame the airforce/navy for the crashes. One 'gentleman' commented on one of the reports saying it must be trainee pilots who cant fly or trainee engineers who left loose nuts and bolts.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jun 2010 11:50

This is Chetak’s area, but my understanding goes as follows,

While flying low, power lines blend with the background and are visible only at close proximity if highlighted against the sky. Against the ground, very difficult to make out.

Unfortunately, AFAIK, technology to detect cabling and power lines does not exist.

MMW radars could possibly detect, but they have short ranges, are expensive and I don’t think India has the technology.

There is also this technology -
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-ne ... -206-6080/
http://www.airframer.com/news_story.html?release=6221

Problem is Indian power lines in rural areas where crashes occur are relatively low powered to generate significant EM fields, military helicopters fly faster, hence reaction time will be low, and in battlefield condition, there will be multiple EW sources. How does one ensure the system isn’t triggered by the nearby WLR or Indra Mk2 radar’s power lines

If memory serves right, Lt Scott O’ Grady’s rescue was conducted in daylight because the Marine Corps was concerned their helicopters and Harriers would be vulnerable to power lines snaking all over Bosnian hills and valleys supplying power to remote villages.

India’s issue is mapping cannot keep pace with rural electrification undertaken by government. The best bets are alert pilots, situational awareness for more visible pylons/poles and most importantly, route recce at altitude before undertaking any training/actual exercise.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jun 2010 11:59

will it be possible to apply reflective paint on the wires without seriously degrading their primary function ? any electrical engineers around here ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Jun 2010 12:02

^^^Sirs,

It is said that the said heptr was on training sortie. Now my limited knowledge tells me that training area(s) would be marked and clealry identified. I remember seeing one such 'box' marked clealry on ATC chart at one of the naval facilities.

Assuming my understanding is correct, cannot the High Tension Cables (HTC) and other hazardous features be clearly mapped and be kept track of on periodic basis?

Thanx.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jun 2010 12:11

You are correct Rohit, but in India, maybe over a week when no flying exercise is happening, say for bad weather, some department may string up lines with no one the wiser.

How many times have we driven one fine morning to work on our route of 5 years suddenly finding it dug up by someone overnight.

So fuel & other considerations allowing, during the sortie itself, a high level pass could be made of the area where low level flight could be undertaken. It isnt foolproof, but offers additional safety.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Jun 2010 12:22

^^^Thank you.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 03 Jun 2010 12:58

But why fly so low?
Cant they just kepp themselves higher than the highest electric tower

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 03 Jun 2010 13:11

Rahul M wrote:will it be possible to apply reflective paint on the wires without seriously degrading their primary function ? any electrical engineers around here ?

Insulated overhead high tension power lines are common in residential areas where power theft is a major problem. Such insulated transmission lines can be used with bright and easily noticable insulator patters, say, red and yellow stripes. But yes they are more expensive than bare ones.

Cheers....

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 03 Jun 2010 13:34

^ But that is no solution! What do you do in lesser visibility or evenings?
No wire will standout with a colour/reflective change unless you have bright lights spewing flare smoke on them

Under what scenario do these helis have to fly so low so as to be in the path of wires?

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 03 Jun 2010 13:52

Reflective coating! During early morning rides, my 3 AAA powered 4 LED front light illuminates the reflective signboards over half a kilometer like christmas tree. The el cheapo reflective insulator coating could be a solution.

Cheers....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jun 2010 14:53

The following was originally brought to my attention after the Balighar dam Mi 17 crash by member Bob V
http://www.defencetalk.com/thai-airforc ... ems-26001/

The HELLAS obstacle warning system was specifically developed for use on-board helicopters. It has been successfully used for many years in German Federal Police helicopters and in 14 civil defence helicopters. HELLAS scans the airspace ahead of the helicopter using a laser beam that poses no danger to the human eye. It detects even extremely thin wires with a high accuracy from distances of up to 1,000 metres.

http://www.drs-ias.com/IASHELLAS.HTM

Most of the helicopter missions of military forces are under extreme conditions such as very low altitude, high speed, poor visibility or night operations with incomplete or unknown terrain information. The probability of collision with difficult to detect obstacles or terrain is high if detection capability is restricted to conventional vision aids, especially during night operations.

The HELLAS-Awareness (A) helicopter laser radar detects obstacles such as cables and power lines up to a distance of 1,200m, as well as rising terrain and warns the pilot reliably and timely through visual information and audio signals.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jun 2010 16:49

Thanks for bringing to notice Shiv, the equipment indeed looks promising. India is already developing derivatives of EADS MILDS AN/AAR-60 MAWS, so the same approach could be followed for HELLAS.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jun 2010 17:15

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/663 ... ehind.html

NAL also did not coordinate well with engine manufacturer Pratt and Whitney and German propeller manufacturer, MT. As a result, it devised an incorrect relight procedure, which was vetted by the ASTE. Relighting – switching off the engine mid-air and re-ignite after few seconds – is a standard procedure for any aircraft to get the airworthiness certificate.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 Jun 2010 12:52

Hate to break the news, but...

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 457691.ece

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jun 2010 12:58

Pilot reported to be same...thank god for that.

wig · Post by **wig** » 16 Jun 2010 13:33

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100616/main2.htm

A major tragedy was averted when an alert pilot of the Indian Air Force (IAF) tilted a crashing jet fighter MiG-21 towards fields saving lives and property before ejecting safely here on Tuesday.

The incident took place at 11.15 am. The pilot, Wing Commander Sandeep Singh, posted at the Pathankot Air Base, was on a routine sortie and was to reach SK Firing Range in Sidhwan Bet near here.

“The pilot faced some technical difficulty while flying and decided to divert the plane to Halwara. But it crashed about 10 km south of the Halwara air base,” said an IAF spokesperson. The MIG’s wreckage was strewn in an area of about four acres.

Eyewitnesses said the tail of the plane caught fire when it was flying over Goindwal village, 3 km away from the crash site. The pilot then flew the plane towards Raikot before ejecting at Raikot-Johlan Road and the plane finally fell on the fields belonging to Jaspal Singh and Sher Singh.

“I was working in the fields when I saw a fireball in the sky approaching towards us. We panicked and ran for cover. We saw two parachutes in the air and the pilot ejecting. Within a few minutes, the plane crashed with a loud blast,” said Harnek Singh and Gurmeet Singh, both Raikot residents.

The shocked pilot was taken to the house of one Bhola, who offered him water and eatables. The pilot was later shifted to a Halwara hospital.

wig · Post by **wig** » 16 Jun 2010 13:36

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100616/main2.htm

Raikot (Ludhiana), June 15
Raikot owes it all to Wing Commander Sandeep Singh. The pilot of the ill-fated MIG -21 that crashed here today risked his life to save this small town.

Singh kept his nerves when the plane caught fire and did not choose to eject immediately as he was flying over the township. He diverted the aircraft towards the fields before bailing out safely. And as soon as he landed, the first question he asked was whether the town was safe or not.

“He was in shock. But when I approached him, he enquired about our safety. I was bowled over by his sense of duty. He is our messiah,” said Karamjeet Singh, a local youth.

The city has decided to honour the brave son of the soil on Independence Day this year. “We will hold a function and proclaim him as the Hero of Raikot,” said Amandeep Gill, president of Raikot Municipal Council.

gogna · Post by **gogna** » 16 Jun 2010 17:10

From Ajit Newspaper Mig 21 down in raikot.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 24 Jul 2010 11:45

mig 27 goes down in west bengal. One villager reported to be killed.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 24 Jul 2010 14:49

one villager killed and 25 injured! link: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/mig-2 ... ured-39373

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 16:42

Cross post

Vishal Jolapara wrote:CF-18 just crashed at an Alberta Airport,
Exclusive Video & Story here - http://www.vancouversun.com/news/crashe ... story.html

This is the most troubling photo i have seen in a long time
http://www.newsvine.com/_vine/images/us ... 739046.jpg

More troubling photos here - http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... et-crashes

I would never have noticed it but for a similar photo in Phil Camp/Simon Watson's Su 30 book - of a Su 30 flying with one engine shut down. the fact that one engine is shut down is indicated by the orientation and semi open position of the exhaust nozzle - the TV nozzle of the Su 30 has moved into the "Engine off" position.

In the series of photos above, the F-18s port exhaust nozzle is relatively more open than the Starboard engine. I wonder if one or the other engine is off because of say a bird hit?
In the last photo but one - the port nozzle is giving a belch of fire from its musharraf as the plane flattens itself on the ground. The Starboard engine is not doing that. i wonder if that was because the port engine was off after "flaming out" i.e the engine was not generating thrust but was getting fuel sprayed into it and that fuel is seen on fire being belched out.

I don't know. i would like to see the final crash report of this accident. And on second thoughts my guess may be totally wrong because photo enhancement of image 2 seems to show hot gases emerging from both musharrafs.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Jul 2010 18:23

Shiv,

If this is of any help - I've seen pic of a F-15 where one of the engines was giving out the 'fire' in the same way as in CF-18 case and comment next to it was a case of burner blow out...but something which was an instantaneous event and engine continues to provide power during this phase as well. Please check the link here (you will need to scroll down to see the F-15 pic ):

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/ ... index.html

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 02 Aug 2010 23:09

Paging Jagan sir and others. A Mi 17 of 130 HU was shot down over Siachen in Aug 1996. Can anyone confirm whether or not the bodies of the pilots and the crew were recovered?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Aug 2010 19:29

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 330288.cms

KOHIMA: A colonel and two majors were killed when an army helicopter on a routine sortie crashed while flying over the mountainous terrain of Dzukou valley in the Nagaland-Manipur border area today, officials said.

The deceased pilots were identified as Maj Nikhil Prakash and Maj Rakesh Sharma while the passenger of the Cheetah helicopter was Col P K Pal, Defence PRO R K Palta said.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 18 Aug 2010 20:42

kancha wrote:Paging Jagan sir and others. A Mi 17 of 130 HU was shot down over Siachen in Aug 1996. Can anyone confirm whether or not the bodies of the pilots and the crew were recovered?

Kancha, I am sorry I saw this only now.

I cant say for sure, but I can find that out. Can you email me jaganpvs "at the rate of " gmail "dawt" com - I can put you in touch with someone who may be able to tell you.`

About the crash, i know the pilots were awarded the Shaurya Chakra posthumously - and the two ranks Mentioned in Despatches.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 18 Aug 2010 22:09

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 27 Aug 2010 20:23

Chetak crashes during training sortie at HAL airport, pilots escape with minor injuries; chopper belonged to HAL's Rotary Wing Academy

A Chetak helicopter of HAL’s Rotary Wing Academy crashed this morning and both pilots escaped with minor injuries. The chopper was about to hover on a regular training sortie when it came down after spinning twice. HAL insiders say that the helicopter would have attained about 10-15 feet when the accident occurred. Initial reports point the finger at the tail-rotor blade, considering that the chopper spun before the crash. The chopper is completely damaged and is beyond any further use. Crash fire-tenders were pressed into service and the runway was closed for operations until the debris was cleared.The injured pilots have been identified as trainer Air Cmdr (retd) R. Assey and Capt Virendra Singh, a trainee pilot from the Indian Army. Both are being treated at the HAL Hospital and are out of danger. “They have minor bruises and we are attending to them. There are no neurological issues and the pilots are fine,” hospital sources said. However, it is mandatory to keep the pilots under observation after such an incident.
A DGCA probe will be now ordered into the accident with HAL’s assistance. A post-crash damage analysis and pre-crash-status study of the chopper will be held, in addition to probing other theories to assess what would have caused the crash.
An eyewitness said the chopper might have been hovering about 5-7 feet and the pilots could have experienced a tail-rotor- control loss, forcing them to bring the chopper down with a hard landing. The tail rotor was intact. “The entire area has been cordoned off and the DGCA team is expected from Hyderabad for the probe,” sources said.
In June this year, an Indian Navy Chetak helicopter crashed into a stream about 50 km from Eastern Naval Command Headquarters at Visakhapatnam, killing a crewmember. The pilot, co-pilot and another passenger had survived that crash. The chopper that was flying low, crashed into the stream after getting entangled in high-tension electrical wires. In May 2005, a Chetak crash was reported from a training school.
HAL’s Rotary Wing Academy has now gained notoriety for crashes with two such incidents in the last seven years. Though the Academy has got huge potential to become as one of the best in India, HAL never branded it nor gave it the required push it ought to have got over the years. “They are just running it as a ritual,” an insider said.
There was no official word from HAL’s side till 3.40 pm. However, a one-para official release (below) came in the evening.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Aug 2010 20:56

I am happy the pilots are OK. I have seen that helicopter dozens of times flying over the golf course. It had a mysterious dark colored "port" on its undersurface whose purpose I could never figure out.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Aug 2010 00:04

Chetak crashes during training sortie at HAL airport, pilots escape with minor injuries; chopper belonged to HAL's Rotary Wing Academy

...
HAL insiders say that the helicopter would have attained about 10-15 feet when the accident occurred.
Initial reports point the finger at the tail-rotor blade, considering that the chopper spun before the crash. The chopper is completely damaged and is beyond any further use. Crash fire-tenders were pressed into service and the runway was closed for operations until the debris was cleared.

The injured pilots have been identified as trainer Air Cmdr (retd) R. Assey and Capt Virendra Singh, a trainee pilot from the Indian Army. Both are being treated at the HAL Hospital and are out of danger. “They have minor bruises and we are attending to them. There are no neurological issues and the pilots are fine,” hospital sources said. However, it is mandatory to keep the pilots under observation after such an incident.
...

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 29 Aug 2010 16:33

Jagan wrote:
kancha wrote:Paging Jagan sir and others. A Mi 17 of 130 HU was shot down over Siachen in Aug 1996. Can anyone confirm whether or not the bodies of the pilots and the crew were recovered?
Kancha, I am sorry I saw this only now.

I cant say for sure, but I can find that out. Can you email me jaganpvs "at the rate of " gmail "dawt" com - I can put you in touch with someone who may be able to tell you.`

About the crash, i know the pilots were awarded the Shaurya Chakra posthumously - and the two ranks Mentioned in Despatches.

Just to confirm - yes indeed the bodies of the four crew members were recovered. I am not sure about the awards, though.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 05 Sep 2010 07:57

Thanks Hari.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 11 Sep 2010 20:32

IAF copter crashes in Jharkhand, 3 dead
Three Indian Air Force (IAF) personnel, including a pilot and a co-pilot, were killed on Saturday when a Chetak helicopter carrying them crashed in bad weather at a remote place in Jharkhand. The chopper was on its way to Bagdogra air base from air force station Kalaikunda in West Bengal when it encountered bad weather and crashed near Sinharsi air base along the border of Pakur and Godda districts of Jharkhand, Eastern Command spokesperson and a senior state police official told PTI.

The deceased were two pilots and a co-pilot of Chetak, Deputy Inspector General of Police D K Pandey said in Pakur.

He said the crash took place in an area under Sundarpahari police station around 4 pm.

Bad weather was stated to be the cause behind the crash.

The IAF has ordered an inquiry into the incident to ascertain the causes behind the accident, the spokesperson said.

This is the second crash of Chetak in a fortnight. On August 27, another Chetak helicopter had crashed moments after take-off during a training mission at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited airport in Bangalore.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 12 Sep 2010 04:16

God bless their soul.